Attempt at a non-inflammatory immigration poll.

[Jed Dilligan]

I am trying to understand why DU is so polarized about illegal immigration, and why some here see it as an urgent concern, considering we have criminals to impeach in the White House and an illegal war raging out of control in Iraq.

I believe, like most DUers I think, that our immigration policy is fundamentally flawed. But I don't think it's something we need to fix before we fix (in this order) the war, corruption at the highest levels, and global warming. The only reason global warming is at the bottom of my list is that we can't do anything about it until we kick the bums out and start behaving like a decent nation.

In the immigration debate, both sides can come up with the statistics they need. Economics is at best a murky science, and I've seen convincing-enough articles that both affirm and contradict immigration's devastating impact on labor markets and government services. I suspect that most of us choose our sides in this debate based on how you view American culture.

Do you feel that the United States has a culture worth protecting from foreign influences? Do you think that American values are a whole system that is incompatible with other cultural systems of value?

Or do you believe that "American culture" essentially does not exist? Do you see it as a constantly changing amalgam of elements of other cultures? Do you think our system of values is based on absorbing ideas from other cultures all the time?

I fall in the latter category and I can't get overly excited about the immigration issue. I'm not trying to change your mind (not in this thread) but I'd like to know where you fall on this spread:

[MethuenProgressive]

1. Define "American culture"

Burlington VT? Ouray CO? Tampa FL? San Diego CA? Chicago IL? Portland OR?

[gravity]

8. Here is a start

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_culture

[MethuenProgressive]

14. American Culture = Wikipedia.

Oh, how the mighty have fallen...

[EFerrari]

11. Milpitas, CA.

:)

[MethuenProgressive]

15. Millinocket, ME

:)

[EFerrari]

18. That's one of the best names I've ever read.

"Who am us?"

lol

[Jed Dilligan]

41. A system that encompasses the cultures of all those places,

and all other places in America, yet is confined to the United States and its sphere of influence.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. I don't think it's a major concern.

Not nearly as much as you'd think, given the volume.

As for American culture, if it exists it's composed entirely of what America's immigrants have brought into it. If we don't have immigrants, we don't have a culture.

[MH1]

3. Other - I don't believe in "American Culture" and I think immigration is a relatively minor concern

that has been distorted and amplified for strictly partisan and in some cases racist purposes.

I do think there are problems with immigration - on both "sides" of the issues as the "sides" seem to be mostly drawn now. I just think we have much bigger issues to deal with and if we just implemented the laws currently on the books in an efficient manner - and fixed the human rights issues with all aspects (H2 visa abuses, detention and deportation, etc) then we would be a long way to solving things. But that wouldn't give the republicans their wedge issue.

[NightWatcher]

4. American Culture is a fancy way of saying "white" or "anti-brown"

Statistics show that "whites" will not be a majority in about a decade at the current rate. "American Culture" as I have heard several people define is "whiteness". They think that we will no longer exist if there are more brown people than black and (most importantly) white. I hope that there is a day sometime in the future when everyone is a nice shade of brown. I'm part German-American- by that, some of my grandfather's father's people were white. I am no more German than I am Aboriginal Bushman.

[Madspirit]

10. I Already

I already live in a minority/majority state and am proud of it!
Lee

[Zywiec]

22. How does this make you proud?

proud: adjective, -er, -est, adverb –adjective

1. feeling pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable to oneself (often fol. by of, an infinitive, or a clause).
2. having, proceeding from, or showing a high opinion of one's own dignity, importance, or superiority.
3. having or showing self-respect or self-esteem.

[BlooInBloo]

17. With *just* enough plausible deniability to pass.

[LoZoccolo]

21. Lame. n/t

[treestar]

35. IA, some day races will disappear

People can travel further more easily now, and interracial and international marriages become more and more frequent.

The freeps are dreaming about keeping their "tribe" pure, as much as anyone else.

The recessive blue eyed, pale skinned, blonde genes are going to be extinct one day.

[Greyhound]

5. It's not a cultural thing, "American culture" is amorphous and regional.

It's about the ruling or owner class using and abusing them to divide us.

[LWolf]

6. Other. See here for my response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3271766#3271899

The bottom line for me? It is not in the "top tier" of priorities from my perspective. When all those other priorities have been satisfactorily dealt with, human migration patterns may have relocated to the top tier, but not before.

I think the whole issue is one big, stinking weapon of mass distraction, personally. Get everybody frothing at the mouth over this manufactured crisis, and tptb don't have to deal with any of the more crucial issues; like nafta/cafta/wto. Like corporate control of the planet. Isn't that what the people fighting over immigration are always talking about? Loss of jobs? Sharing of resources?

If anyone really wanted to address effects of immigration, they would look at planet-wide population growth and migration patterns. They would acknowledge that, until the earth's human population levels out at some stable, sustainable number, there will continue to be conflict and competition over all resources.

All the racism, ethnic and cultural isolationism, trade and labor regulation, and patrolled fence lines on the planet won't resolve this issue. The issue is larger than political boundaries, and political boundaries will not solve it.

[gravity]

7. Of course there is an American culture

Just like every other society of human beings on the planet. We aren't special. Believing that we are the exception and don't have a culture is apart of our culture.

If people want to integrate into our culture, they can. If not, they can live their lives how they want in this country, but they will not have as much opportunities to succeed.

[EFerrari]

9. Other: I think the people of the United States have been softened up

to accept yet one more wave of nativism.

[Zywiec]

12. I'm saddened that some think there is no American culture

Apparently some people have never traveled outside the United States and seen our influence on the world. And no, I'm not talking about a negative influence.

[Jed Dilligan]

13. Hollywood? Herman Melville? Frank Sinatra?

Do tell.

[NightWatcher]

16. is there distinct positive influence overseas?

the only influence I see is commercial influence as seen by the presence of a McDonalds in the shadow of the Cathedral in Koln Germany.
Are American ideas truly American or just "liberal", ie freedom. Not a slam, but I cant remember seeing "American" culture when I have traveled abroad.

[Madspirit]

30. Yes...we've TRAMPLED everywhere!

I have friends all over the world and they do NOT like our country.

"When I go to Europe, I just want to wear
a t-shirt with a picture of Bush and the
words, "I'm sorry".
Joss Whedon


Lee

[Matsubara]

19. I don't give a crap about "American Culture" No such thing.

The reason I have a problem with unrestricted illegal immigration is that illegals function like scabs because they will work for insanely low wages while living piled 7 deep in a 1 bedroom apartment.

Their depressive effect on working people's wages is more than enough reason to send them back home. And I will add that many of the workers I hope to protect are naturalized LEGAL Mexicans and Mexican-Americans.

[Jed Dilligan]

23. I think housing is a bigger issue than wages

Native-born Americans will always be priced out by people who are willing to stack. To-each-his-bedroom only lasted a couple of generations!

[EFerrari]

24. So, why are you blaming workers for policy?

That's the part of this that I just don't get. Hungry people don't set policy. They just try to live.

And it doesn't matter who you feel is "good enough" for you to protect because human rights don't begin and end with you or me.

[Matsubara]

25. I don't "blame" workers, I blame employers.

But it is the presence of starving workers willing to work for peanuts (as well as offshoring) that bring down wages for legal American workers.

Our government is obligated to look out for OUR citizens and legal residents, not the citizens of other countries.

If you want to complain about the human rights situation for Mexicans, why not complain to the ultra-rich Mexican oligarchy, which pretty much keeps all the country's wealth to iself. (Wow, sounds familiar)

[EFerrari]

27. That would be the oligarchy who your government helped

to subvert the last Mexican federal election

At some point, it would be in our interest to understand that other workers aren't the problem. :eyes:

[bunkerbuster1]

26. I'm with you here, but...

I think it's a foolish to imagine we have the ability to deport 12-15 million residents. I'd rather apply those energies and resources to improving worldwide environmental, worker safety and labor rights.

[Matsubara]

29. Deportation is one prong...

...but the focus should clearly not be on building walls, but on enforcement on the employer level, especially in sectors that tend to use illegal labor. The punishment should mostly fall on employers as well. I disagree with those who would call illegals "criminals" - I agree that they're victims of circumstance, but allowing them to stay is extremely unfair to all the people who went through the legitimate process to immigrate (My wife did it when we lived in the states, and I did it when we came bac to Japan)

I agree we need to do more worldwide in the areas you mentioned, but the present administration's policies are the exact opposite - they believe in keeping poor people in other countries poor so that they're more easily exploited by the multinationals.

[Jed Dilligan]

40. The playing field is uneven

The time and expense of going through the legal immigration process were something you could risk, because the chance of a positive outcome was very good. If the odds of getting your wife in legally were, say, one in a thousand, wouldn't you have considered other options?

A Mexican or Salvadoran without a college education has almost no chance of entering the country legally. They risk huge penalties to enter the country in the only way they realistically can. But this risk, like yours, is sane from their viewpoint, because conditions are so poor where they come from.

[treestar]

36. So the capitalist wil just move the factories there

Though you're apparently betting on the idea they should just starve - after all, they weren't born in the USA, so they're just unecessary nonhumans, right?

[Matsubara]

42. Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying (sarcasm)

It's the responsibility of the US government to look after the welfare of US workers, not illegals.

And it should be the responsibility of the Mexican government to see to it that the ultra-rich Mexican oligarchy shares more of Mexico's wealth with its poor people.

The solution to poverty in Mexico or other countries is not to export its poor to the US.

Do you always put words in people's mouths when you have a discussion with them, or are you capable of conversing like an adult?

[LoZoccolo]

20. There is at least definately an American work culture that I prefer to many others.

I have a boss from another country who seems to get embarrassed and offended at the very notion that I would question his decisions, and digs in more and more to whatever bad call he's made just to prove himself, and he's not the only one. American business culture, at least when it's done right, is way more open to two-way communication than some places.

And before someone takes this opportunity to try to make themselves look enlightened at my expense, I have had bosses whose background are from a lot of these same places and yet have adopted more American work culture and I have nothing against them. So eat a dick if you want to call me racist or xenophobic. It is everyone's personal responsibility to be a decent boss no matter who they are.

[Truthiness Inspector]

28. Virtually every country has immigration laws

and detain/arrest/deport those who enter those nations illegally or overstay visas.

Why shouldn't the U.S.?

I respect the entry laws of other countries when I visit (or also in my case, have lived); I would not dream of overstaying my visa and then pointing the finger anywhere but at myself.

I am all for legal immigration and empathize with those who want to come here.

[BlooInBloo]

31. Please point me to where ANYONE said, suggested, or implied...

... that the US should have no immigration laws?

Thanks!

[Truthiness Inspector]

32. This is a discussion about illegal immigration, no?

I was merely joining in and offering my thoughts.

[BlooInBloo]

33. Ah - gotcha! Well, thoughts about strawmen are always welcome!

I'll even join you: I for one think it's absurd to advocate allowing all the world's pewter collectors citizenship without making them wait in line like everyone else.

[Truthiness Inspector]

37. Have a cup of chamomile

There is nothing strawman about discussing immigration laws in a discussion about immigration laws.

Unless you disagree with my thoughts, what exactly is the problem here? LOL. And from the sounds of it, you aren't disagreeing with what I said, only that I said it.

[treestar]

38. If it were a case of surviving, you would

No way would you starve out of respect for another country's immigration laws.

Other countries find their immigration laws easy to enforce, because no one wants to go there.

We have an ever expanding economy and a lowering birth rate.

We've always been a country of immigrants, and it's never stopped us or impoverished us before. In fact it has made us the richest nation on earth.

[Truthiness Inspector]

39. I don't disagree with that conundrum

but you raise a whole other ball of wax. If you were starving would you do X, or Y, or maybe even Z?
I don't care to get involved in that discussion right now.

As I have already stated, I do empathize with people wanting to come here. And that isn't flip; I really do.

[Matsubara]

43. Only a fraction of Americans enjoy the fruits of "the richest nation on earth"

The average European or Japanese enjoys a better standard of living than the average American.

"But Americans have color TVs and more square footage! Who needs job security, pensions, healthcare or vacations?" - Rush Limbaugh

[treestar]

34. American culture is based on the fact that America is the land of

immigrants.

One author set out to write a history of immigration to America. He soon discovered that he was writing a history of America itself. He said, "the history of immigration to America is the history of America."

[Matsubara]

44. American culture was based on hunter-gatherers and primitive agriculture...

..and then it was based on coexistence with a few European guests, and then it was based on genocide of the indigenous people, and then it was based on a flood of immigration so huge that the natives became an almost invisible minority, and now it's based on corporate rule of all things. Your view is based on a romanticized rose-colored view of the whole early 20th century Ellis Island experience, where new people could come and prosper in a new land with unlimited space and opportunity.


Unfortunately that period is long past, and both space and opportunity are a lot harder to come by. I am not against immigration. The United States allows over ONE MILLION LEGAL IMMIGRANTS EVERY YEAR, more than any other country on earth. Immigrants add richness and ingenuity to this country. Most illegals are good people, too, but their presence is illegal, and illegal employers are exploiting them as one of the many ways they utilize to keep working class people's wages low.

Canada is also a first-world country, with a long history of immigration and a lot more open, undeveloped space than the US has. Maybe they should take all these illegals.

Oh no, that won't happen, because they actually enforce their immigration laws...

[rucky]

45. I'm not buying the "culture" angle.

It's a wedge issue brought on as a by-product of the culture warriors, but addressing that angle is taking the bait.

We really need to examine:

a) How fair are our "legal" immigration laws? (I don't know)

b) What is the root cause of illegal immigration? Employers who actively recruit and exploit illegals are part of it. Screwing over our neighbors in "trade deals" is another.

THAT'S what we should be talking about.