European democracy

[blindpig]

This is how it's done, this is the power of the people, this is all we got.


Greece: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=22783



France: http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/96570



Italy: http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/96520



Spain: http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/95844



Portugal: http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4581



Bulgaria: http://www.allvoices.com/s/event-7063426/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5ub3Zpbml0ZS5jb20vdmlld19uZXdzLnBocD9pZD0xMjEyNjU=



Which side are you on?

[blindpig]

1. kick

[kctim]

2. Still at least 20 years

before the people of the US hit that position.

They are a controlled people, dependent on their government, so when their government takes away something, it affects almost all of them. This gives them a common cause to show up in masses.
Our nation has not yet reached this point. We are too busy fighting amongst ourselves over which individual beliefs and individual rights we should get rid of.

[blindpig]

4. "a controlled people"??

Wtf does that mean? Do those people in France look controlled? The government is dependent upon them, society is dependent upon workers. By these action that dependence is demonstrated. We can do the same, we just gotta get off our knees.

[kctim]

5. I didn't say it was a bad thing

But yes, while their actions may not be controlled, their lives, when compared to ours, certainly are. It will be a while before we can do the same because we do not have that dependency on government to unite us under a common cause.
Look at what happens when our government tells us it won't pay for all of our healthcare, that we will retire later or that our checks won't be going up with inflation: nothing. Why? Because the majority of Americans are willing to pay for their own healthcare, have plans for retirement and do not rely on government money for their survival. With this being the case, we as a whole are not affected as badly as the Europeans are when government takes something away from us.

Not saying one side is better than the other, just that we as a nation have not yet embraced the huge change to our personal lives that is needed in order for us all to share such a common cause. Nice to see them doing that, but anything less than a full blown depression is going to take time for us.

[reggie the dog]

9. it is not control my friend

we collective give each other as much security and peace of mind as possible and use the government as the tool which provides that to everyone

did you read this about france "At the Grandpuits refinery east of Paris strikers piled up tyres and set them ablaze today after the authorities issued a legal order insisting that some strikers reopen the facility.

As curls of heavy black smoke wafted into the air, workers said they would refuse.

Dozens of oil tankers remained stuck in the Mediterranean outside Marseille where dockers have been on strike for more than three weeks in protest at a port reform as well as the attack on their retirement rights.

On Sunday Petrol Industries Association president Jean-Louis Schilansky warned that "we will have a very big problem" if strikers continue to block fuel depots and the nation's lorry drivers join the movement.

And today they did join in."

govt says stop stiking or else, the people stack up tyres and burn them and say "fuck you we aint workin"

dozens of oil tankers blocked and the boss man says "big problems if them truckers join in the strike"

what happened a day or 2 later??? THE TRUCKERS JOINED IN THE STRIKE AND NOW OVER A THIRD OF GAS STATIONS ARE DRY!

that is not control that is freedom!!!!!!!!!

i have buddies out there that are teachers who went and blocked petrol depots with their union brothers and sisters, they are free, not under control!

[kctim]

12. You're own words show it is control

when compared to the US.

You collectively give each other the security and peace of mind that has been determined by groups, not individuals. You use the government as the tool to insure that everyone participates, even against their will.
That is not freedom, sorry.

So, not working and burning shit when you do not agree with what your employer is doing, is what you believe to be "freedom?" Why don't you just negotiate or find a new employer, like we do over here?

Look, I'm not bashing what works for you guys, more power to you in fact. I am just saying that the US is not currently in the position where we have to, desire to, or even possibly need to, have such protests.

[reggie the dog]

15. find a new employer???

most employers have similar standards, most of the time the govt or the unions impose worker or safety standards. plus most people are workers so if you control the rampant laissez faire economy that adversely effects a tiny percentage of the population and liberates the masses. yes, not working and burning tyres to stop profit is the tool which has won things for working people throught history, look up the gm sit down strikes and think of all the benefits that came out of that. in the usa nearly all social gains came from protests and riots that pushed FDR to the left. telling the boss to fuck off and make profit without workers is freedom, we are not controlled by our bosses....

[kctim]

40. Who

is the employer you are protesting in this instance?

I did not say such protests were not effective or not necessary. What I very clearly said was that such tactics would not work in the US at this time because we are not as beholden or dependent on government at this time.

[reggie the dog]

43. no employer in particular

but there is less money in the retirement and health care pools because the govt has lowered the social charges for the business owners for about 10 years, owners pay less and we work longer....

we are not dependent on the government, quite the contrary they depend on us. such tactics appear to work in the usa, look at the success of the tea party movement

[uppityperson]

19. This strike is not about "not agree with what your employer is doing"

"So, not working and burning shit when you do not agree with what your employer is doing, is what you believe to be "freedom?" Why don't you just negotiate or find a new employer, like we do over here?"

Maybe you should read up on what the strike is about instead of telling him/her to switch jobs or negotiate with the employer. Do you seriously believe that people in France do not negotiate with employers, do not switch jobs?

[kctim]

41. I am aware of what the strike is about

and I ask that question because the govt is basically the "employer" they are protesting.

[Hannah Bell]

21. lol. maybe *you're* not. americans are controlled every bit as much, or more, than europeans.

the only think holding up this economy right now is social benefits, & as for the propaganda pushed 24/7 & control -- don't get me started.

the control function is *more* successful here than in europe, in fact.

[uppityperson]

24. You mean you disagree that the "majority of Americans..."?

You mean you disagree with this part? You think it is propaganda being pushed? Well, me also.

"Look at what happens when our government tells us it won't pay for all of our healthcare, that we will retire later or that our checks won't be going up with inflation: nothing. Why? Because the majority of Americans are willing to pay for their own healthcare, have plans for retirement and do not rely on government money for their survival. With this being the case, we as a whole are not affected as badly as the Europeans are when government takes something away from us."

[Hannah Bell]

27. yes, i disagree with the statement & its underlying premises.

government funding = about half of the cost of us healthcare.

most people couldn't pay for their own without that "socialist" underpinning, which is also a "capitalist" underpinning providing big profits for corporations.

[uppityperson]

28. So do I.

we've disagreed in the past, often, but am with you on this one.

[reggie the dog]

26. damn right hanna bell

we have disagreed in the past but i am with you all the way on this topic

[kctim]

42. Really?

Then you should have no problem proving any of that then, right?

[uppityperson]

22. Wow."majority of Americans are willing to pay for their own healthcare..."?

"Look at what happens when our government tells us it won't pay for all of our healthcare, that we will retire later or that our checks won't be going up with inflation: nothing. Why? Because the majority of Americans are willing to pay for their own healthcare, have plans for retirement and do not rely on government money for their survival. With this being the case, we as a whole are not affected as badly as the Europeans are when government takes something away from us."

What "majority of Americans" are willing to pay for their own healthcare? Do you mean those who can't afford insurance or don't have jobs that help pay for that?

What "majority of Americans" "have plans for retirement and do not rely on government money for their survival"? Do you mean all those seniors who send back their Social Security checks?

Aside from these inaccuracies, the rest reads rather like condescension, did you mean that?

[reggie the dog]

8. we are not controlled

that is why we strike and block the country even though the leaders say not to

[TBF]

16. Thank you for weighing in -

and for all that you are doing. Solidarity my friend, my hope is that the workers here will somehow follow the courage your countrymen show.

[reggie the dog]

25. my adoptive countrypeople

i was born in the usa and moved here to france when i was 24, i am now 31 and have double nationality.. i just may move back to the usa after i learn enough about organizing protests

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. "a controlled people, dependent on their government"

No, wait, let me guess, evil sushulizm brainwashed them and conspurcated their precious bodily fluids?

[Starry Messenger]

3. k & r

[leftstreet]

6. K&R

[reggie the dog]

7. dont forget belgium

they had a big strike on monday of this week

[blindpig]

10. I am remiss, thanks reggie

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6123157,00.html

How's it going? What's your view on what happens when they push this thing thru the Senate?

[reggie the dog]

11. i think there will be sabatoge, riots and protests if the senate

votes this shit through, if the govt needles us too hard people will simply blow up the refinery, people are already burning tyres, shutting down expressways, highways and ports, university students are striking more and more, high school kids striking more and more and rioting with malatovs and all too, if the law gets pushed through all hell is going to break loose and we strikers are supported at a rate of 72 percent according to a poll which asked if people supported us even if there were shortages! i am stocking up on dry noodles and going for canned food tomorrow; bought a bunch of apples and top the car off each time i go 100 miles.... if they pass this by force it could very well lead to a huge protest and strike and perhaps topple the govt! then the english would see what they need to do.... belgium, spain, greece, italy, bulgaria, portugal and france have been striking a lot this past year!

[slackmaster]

13. Seeing big crowds marching in the streets in European cities gives me the creeps for some reason

Can't quite put my finger on it...

[leftstreet]

14. The creeps?

Why on earth would it do that?

:shrug:

[reggie the dog]

18. are you scared of working people???

or scared that we will win and you will have to admit that the usa is a festering shithole due to inaction on the part of the working masses?

[uppityperson]

29. you do have a way with words. Indeed.

[slackmaster]

31. Similar things have been said many times in history, and not always with good results

Being of German descent, I'm always leery of a crowd carried away with some grand idea.

Please be careful what you wish for.

[leftstreet]

34. There are some crowds that really scare me

[reggie the dog]

37. those are the fuckers you thorw molotovs and rocks at

unless they are pissed off at the govt and have come to protest with you.... it has happened before but not for over 70 years.... but there are so many of us in the streets that the coppers cant do anything, they dont have the jail cells, they dont have the numbers and 72% of people support the strikers!

[reggie the dog]

36. this crowd is opposed

to the deportations of roms, opposed to anti immigrant sentiment... opposed to the shit sarko is giving us.... it is a left wing roots protest and i am happy to say it is getting out of control of the unions too........

[pampango]

49. Well said. The left there knows how progressive societies are built - don't rely on the benevolence

of elites, but make change happen.

[slackmaster]

32. Double-tap

:hi:

[TBF]

20. Does it? Because it only gives me hope. nt

[blindpig]

17. Check this out:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/oct/20/french-strikes

lots of links and video, commentary.

[reggie the dog]

23. this is funny

"What's at stake here is not the retirement age, or jobs for students but the very nature of power in this country. If Sarkozy doesn't... back down, then this specifically French way of doing politics may be gone forever."

as if we would give up on strikes because we lost one! please we dont win all the time, but we damn well do protest!

[blindpig]

30. Yeah

some of the British commentary is particularly amusing.

Solidarity, my friend. Give 'em hell.

[reggie the dog]

33. my favorite memory of the protest tuesday

was the sight of an 80 year old or so guy and his wife waving unionist banners and dancing on their balcony as the protest moved by, he got the high school kids good and fired up by yelling "way to go young people, fight fight fight for your future!" damn near brought me to tears, i had my 2 year old in her stroller just behind the high school kids in the protest, lots of road flares, smoke bombs, cherry bombs etc.... BOOOOOMMMM and my little girl looked scared and said daddy???? she saw me smiling and laughing and then just relaxed and enjoyed the show....

[blindpig]

38. What gets me..

I was looking at a video from VOA of all places, didn't have sound but the people, with drums and all manner of noise makers, were joyous, it was all over their faces. Those are the sort of warriors you don't want to fuck with.

[reggie the dog]

46. check out photo 40 at this link

this is the old man dancing on the balcony i told you about any photos in the cité dragon are of Draguignan where i protested with my daughter http://www.varmatin.com/diaporama/les-manifestations-contre-la-reforme-des-retraites-ce-mardi?idx=29#top-diapo

in photo 43 one of my buddies daughters is right up front with her fellow high shcool students

[blindpig]

50. That's great stuff, everyone should see those photos

Liberte'!

We can do this.

[maryf]

44. From your link "Were there a Michelin Great Protest guide"

"But writing in the Guardian, Tariq Ali, who led student protests in the UK in the 1960s, has been cheered by the sight of the French protests, and wonders why the English aren't more militant.

"And what a joyous sight: school students marching in defence of old people's rights. Were there a Michelin Great Protest guide, France would still be top with three stars, with Greece a close second with two stars. {Why aren't we shooting for 4 stars,mf}

"What a contrast with the miserable, measly actions being planned by the lily-livered English trade unions. There is growing anger and bitterness here too, but it is being recuperated by a petrified bureaucracy. A ritual protest has been planned, largely to demonstrate that they are doing something. But is this something better than nothing?"

If the English are lily livered, guess we're faint hearted...what do we offer in a way of "protest" a measley .003% at a one nation march that wasn't a march at all?? Come on folks, whose side are you on??

[Romulox]

39. I am on the side of the workers. Is a movement like this in the US not possible?

I think the owners in the US wouldn't hesitate to crack heads--possibly with some outsourced mercenary types.

[Panaconda]

45. Anything can happen...

Solidarity...

Thanks reggie-bp-hb-tbf-mary and those who support...

You are the heart and soul...

Keep on...

[maryf]

48. Solidarity

all power to the people...(morning kick to boot!)

[inna]

47. kr, awesome thread.

[Panaconda]

51. Bump

[blindpig]

52. Update from CGT

There will be a day of strikes and demonstrations on 10/28/10 and a day of protests and demonstrations on 11/06/10.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.cgt.fr/&ei=baHBTKS7I4Sclgf4nfSaCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcgt%2Bfrance%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Dn