If Howard Dean was in charge of getting out the vote, the dems would be crushing the GOP in 2 weeks.

[BigBearJohn]

IMHO

[musette_sf]

1. K&R

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

2. Verily....

I do miss the good doctor. :(

[Davis_X_Machina]

3. I'm an incredible chick magnet.

IMHO.

Hey, you've got your fantasies, I've got mine....

[Ysabela]

65. Yup, the 50 state strategy in 2006 was just a fantasy... *roll eyes*

[BrentWil]

69. Cause that is why we won...

Had nothing to do with an extremely unpopular President.

[Ken Burch]

142. Actually, it didn't.

We did NOT win by default. We won almost entirely due to grassroots volunteer passion.

Why would you ever question that, and why would you say "it was because Bush was unpopular", when saying that is the same thing as saying that it didn't COUNT that we won?

And why would ANYONE question the 50 state strategy when it never had ANY downside?

[onenote]

162. not questioning the 50 state strategy

But its an undeniable fact that that the reason that we had grassroots volunteer passion was that folks had become fed up with bush. To think there was no relationship between anger at bush and our success in 2006 is to ignore reality.

[Ken Burch]

163. But Bush's unpopularity wouldn't have mattered

If people hadn't had gotten out and used it.

We just need to avoid anything that sounds like we're accepting the "it didn't count" meme.

[sweetloukillbot]

122. I can't speak for every state...

But in Arizona the 50-state strategy resulted in us picking up two Republican seats in swing districts in 2006. One was Gabrielle Giffords, who won the seat of a retiring moderate, gay Republican involved in a sex scandal, by defeating a radical anti-immigration candidate. The other, Harry Mitchell, beat JD Hayworth, a complete jackass and one of the main players in the Abramoff scandal. I don't know the numbers of Giffords' victory, but I know that Mitchell beat Hayworth by an incredibly slim margin. Both are blue dogs, as is the third Democratic pick-up in AZ in 2008, Ann Kirkpatrick (for the seat of another corrupt Republican). At least in AZ, the 50-state strategy resulted in the very Democrats that most who praise the 50-state strategy condemn as the problem of the party. But progressives wouldn't win in these districts, given the gerrymandering and party makeup of them.

Again, I can't speak for all states, but in this purple-to-red state, the 50-state strategy only brought blue dogs and all three seats are up for grabs now - not because they are blue dogs, but because they are Democrats in redder districts.

[defendandprotect]

150. Right ... and Rahm fought it all the way ... even when the election was over!!!

Rahm seems to prefer when Democrats are losing!!

[molly77]

105. Howard Dean should have been obama's chief of staff from day one

Then there would not have been so many anti progressive news leaks from an unnamed high up official in the WH. Has there ever been a time in US politics when a party's base was so blatantly thrown under the bus? My guess is many in the obama administration are working for bill and hill.They think she actually has a shot of being president. Delusional.

[Jackpine Radical]

115. Oh, crap. They're working for Obama.

http://www.amazon.com/Mendacity-Hope-Betrayal-American-Liberalism/dp/006201126X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287697865&sr=8-1

A fearless and incisive manifesto that exposes the real causes of President Obama's failure to enact liberal reform, by the former editor of Harper's Magazine

Americans find themselves in genuine confusion and dismay concerning the actions of President Obama's administration, especially when it comes to the financial crisis and health care. Obama's reform packages, passed with great fanfare, ignore the most significant perils facing the United States. In The Mendacity of Hope, Roger D. Hodge makes the provocative case that substantive reform was never even on the table. Behind the euphoria of Obama's victory was in fact a business-as-usual corporate machine, a bloc of political investors, campaign contributors, and lobbyists expecting big returns on their investments. And what a return they have received: in one bailout after another, for the health insurance industry as well as for Wall Street, Obama made sure that the Democratic Party's most powerful investors made out like bandits.

None of Obama's most important campaign promises—ending the Iraq war, abolishing torture, closing GuantÁnamo, changing Washington's culture of corruption—has come to pass. Instead, he has escalated the conflict in Afghanistan, bailed out the bankers, and institutionalized the civil rights abuses of the Bush regime.

Another president might have played the forces of corporate interest differently, but Hodge argues that the fantasy of American politics is that a different kind of president is possible without a fundamental reform of our political system. Americans bought into the delusion that one man could bring change to Washington, but instead of reform we've seen a continuation of George W. Bush's assault on the Constitution. Obama's presidency has demonstrated that mere hope is never enough, that change will come only when the American people take charge of their own politics. A brilliantly crafted call to arms, The Mendacity of Hope offers an essential analysis of the American political system and the powerful interests that control our government.

[Ken Burch]

141. Davis, you can't deny that, on every point of strategy in the last two years

Dean's been proved right and Rahm's been proved wrong.

If we'd kept Dean running the DNC, we wouldn't have lost ANY of the Senate or statehouse seats we've lost in the last two years.

And if we still had the 50 state strategy instead of the proven futile "targeting" approach, we wouldn't be in trouble at all this fall.

[defendandprotect]

151. Agree -- Kaine is the new Rahm destroyer -- finding new ways to lose while

ignorning ways to win!

[Davis_X_Machina]

160. Because Dean would have...

...U3 under 8%, and U6 down to 12%.

Ok..... sure. Whatever.

It's the economy, stupid.

[Ken Burch]

164. I'm not saying he could control the economy.

But, unlike Tim Kaine and Rahm, Dean would have had the party READY to fight this election.

It's now obvious that Kaine and Rahm WANT us to lose badly this year.

[Rhiannon12866]

4. K&R. My question is, so why isn't he?

He's obviously the right man for the job, so why aren't the Democrats calling on him to do what he's so good at? :shrug:

[loudsue]

7. Because the faux dems that control the purse strings don't like him.

He's from "the democratic wing of the democratic party". The ones who control the party...aren't.

[pnwmom]

8. You know for a fact he wanted to do it and they prevented him? n/t

[Rhiannon12866]

12. Well, that makes no sense.

He's the reason that we obtained such a sizeable majority in both houses. His 50-state strategy worked. And he was brilliant as DNC Chair. How could anybody who cares about winning and the Democratic Party not like Howard Dean? :crazy:

[XemaSab]

14. Preach it

I think we should EXPAND on the 50-state strategy and rock the 58-COUNTY strategy here in California. Not to mention hitting EVERY county HARD elsewhere.

I miss Howard. :(

[Rhiannon12866]

20. I agree with you and I miss him, too...

He was brilliant as DNC Chair and I miss hearing words of wisdom from him on a regular basis. He could certainly help in California, and I fear for the traditionally red states where we were making some progress. We could absolutely use his help here in NY, as well, for obvious reasons... x(

[EFerrari]

18. Rahm tried to get rid of him, isn't that right?

And Gibbs was the one in charge of defeating him in the primaries?

It's pretty clear that the gang in charge wanted him gone.

[Rhiannon12866]

21. You are probably right about that.

I was absolutely baffled when he was not asked to join the Obama administration... :(

[Tesha]

199. That confirmed everything I had suspected about Obama and his cronies. (NT)

[elleng]

25. Yes, rahm.

[elleng]

24. They don't 'like' him because he's NOT them.

I suspect that to a fair extent its rahm-related, but there are surely other 'professional' dems who don't want to share their power/access w him, a relative outsider.

[Rhiannon12866]

72. He was nearly the nominee and was head of the party...

You'd think that would count for quite a bit. The bottom line is that his strategy worked, so it makes no sense to reject it, or him. They're just shooting themselves in the foot if they do... :crazy:

[elleng]

132. BEEN doing that.

Saw rahm at book-signing, before '08, discussing his approach to winning, which didn't involve Dean's 50-State strategy. I asked, as a member of the audience (at Politics and Prose bookstore, in DC), 'What about the 50-State strategy?' He gave me a really 'sour' expression, and didn't really answer.

Rejecting Dean makes NO SENSE. I think, more than anything, its an EGO thing. 'Boys will be boys.' Damn!

[whathehell]

30. Rahm didn't like him...

and perhaps Obama doesn't either.

He is, as the poster above says, from the "Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" and too many of the Dem Establishment is from the "Republican Wing", imo.

Love the Dean..I believe he would have created real change.

[Rhiannon12866]

75. The thing is, he did create real change

So you'd think that everybody and anybody would want him on board, especially now, when everybody keeps saying we're in trouble. Even if they don't like him, desperate times call for desperate measures. And he was hugely popular, then just dropped out of sight. :(

[whathehell]

102. I agree with you one thousand percent...I'd vote for a Howard Dean over a Barack Obama

in a New York minute.

[MissDeeds]

108. I would too

Howard Dean would get me fired up and ready to go for the change we really need. I hope I get the chance to vote for him for president in the future...the sooner the better.

[whathehell]

139. +1000 n/t

[Rhiannon12866]

114. I probably would, too... now.

Dean was not my candidate in 2004, but ever since I really started listening to him, I've agreed with every single thing that he's said. Obama, not always, now. But I still believe that he's the smartest man in any room... The thing is that they're not mutually exclusive. We need them both. Obama will no doubt seek and win a second term and Dean can make that happen, for more Democrats. And he has a great deal to contribute, wish he had been given a cabinet post. He certainly deserves one... :(

[whathehell]

138. I would have always voted for Dean over Obama...but that's just me.

As far as Obama being "the smartest guy in the room"...Maybe, but to tell you the truth, sometimes "smart" alone doesn't cut it...

I mean, Hell, you could probably name a few right wingers with high I.Q.s..It has more to do with values, I think, and in Obama's case "savviness"...Frankly, I don't think he really has that.

[Rhiannon12866]

144. You make some very good points.

And don't get me wrong, I would probably vote for Howard Dean for just about anything, if only given the opportunity. A man with such myriad talents and know how doesn't come along very often and it bothers me a lot that we are hearing so little from him. He has so much to offer and his disappearance baffles me. We need somebody now who knows how to win! :grr:

As for Obama, I want to still like him, but I get depressed with the backtracking and the foot dragging. I know that he was left with an unprecedented mess to clean up and a congress that needs a good slap upside the head, but he's blown so many chances to move forward... :(

[whathehell]

153. Thank you.

You make good points as well.

I feel the same way regarding Obama...It's hard not to like him personally, but I think he is a lot less politically savvy than we thought he was when we voted him in. I also think we thought he would be more progressive.

That being said, he's what we have now, and he's far better than anything on "the other side" and that's for absolute certain. So we deal with things as they are now and perhaps remember to keep a more discerning eye regarding the next candidate...That's my take.

[Rhiannon12866]

Maybe it's a matter of experience.

Barack Obama may be the smartest man in the room, but he wasn't even a senator for very long. I'm hoping that he grows in the job, since he hasn't been president for very long, either. They've been saying that it's been "two years" for ages, when it won't actually be two years until next January... :shrug:

Howard Dean, on the other hand, has the experience, ran a state successfully and knows how to get things done far better than most. And he was brilliant as DNC Chair. I really hope that we see more of him, and before too long... :(

But I certainly agree that Obama is a million times better than anything that the other side could come up with. Actually, all of our candidates have been. I'd even go as far as to include Mike Gravel, LOL. Who do the Republicans have? Tom Tancredo?! Mittens?! Yikes! The only one who's even remotely likable is Ron Paul, though he comes off as a little crazy and isn't really a Republican... ;)

[whathehell]

186. Yes, I thought the same thing about Obama.

Inexperienced and politically naive at the national level.

Even when he declared his candidacy, I thought that he should have waited until he at least finished his first term as senator....Whatever..:shrug:

I do think he may now realize his weakness on "messaging" and "politicking" as he now has to run around the country. busting bust his butt, as it were, to make up for "lost time"..although he DOES seem to be making a positive difference, which is great.

As to Dean, yeah..He WAS a great DNC Chair...and, frankly, the best thing to happen to the party in twenty years, IMO....He's been treated badly..May he get a little more appreciation in the future...He's made a huge difference for the party -- A far BETTER one than the awful Rahm.

[Rhiannon12866]

198. Now that you mention it, I remember thinking that, too.

That Barack Obama hadn't been in the Senate that long, that it was kind of early for him to think of running for president, that he lacked experience. And I remember that the issue came up at the time, but was considered racist, that it meant that he should "wait his turn," which certainly wasn't my thought at all. And he was certainly considered a rising star well before he declared his intention to run... :shrug:

The thing is, could we have won without him? Possibly not. And by such a large margin? Though it didn't hurt that the Republicans came up with one of the least likable tickets in history, LOL. But these things are unpredictable. I was as shocked as anyone when Bush* "won" a second term in 2004, and I'd already been on DU for almost two years back then, but I was still blindsided. x(

So we have to play with the cards we've been dealt and certainly could do, and have done, a whole lot worse. I like the president and am sure pulling for him, but it's just that I expected a whole lot more, given what he promised, and sooner. But I'm certainly willing to give him a few more chances, since it's early days yet. :)

As for Howard Dean, I'm not willing to write him off yet, either. There's work to do and we need him now more than ever. And the sooner that somebody recognizes this, the better, IMHO. I don't think we'd be in the tough spot we are now if he was still in charge. :(

[NewJeffCT]

81. Dean got little credit for the Dems winning in 2006

Rahm Emmanual made sure to take most of the credit.

[Rhiannon12866]

95. Well, I was under the impression that it was Dean's 50-state strategy...

I must have learned that here on DU... ;)

[whathehell]

197. Yes, I saw he and Chuck Schumer on the front page taking all the credit..It pissed me off a LOT n/t

[loudsue]

93. That's how the masses of active democrats feel. Rahm didn't like Dean,

and the corporate arm of the dem party didn't like his populist message. They are republicans.

[Rhiannon12866]

98. Makes no sense. We won big thanks to Dean.

And what else is it all about? We need him now, more than ever... :(

[JDPriestly]

26. Because Rahm Emmanuel and Obama were jealous of him.

[Rhiannon12866]

77. Well, Obama won and Rahm is gone...

Time to call on Howard Dean, IMHO. :)

[Bluebear]

29. DLC! DLC!

[Rhiannon12866]

78. Good point.

*sigh*

[rhett o rick]

104. While winning is important there are things that must be more important.

The Democratic Machine wants to win, however, it is important to them that they be in control. They would rather have big corp support than average joe support. Gov Dean proved he could get the grassroots out. Although happy to reap the rewards, the Democratic Machine didnt want the grassroots to think they were in charge. Rahm made that clear over and over.

[glitch]

166. b i n g o

They've made that very clear, bluntly hammering it home in the past few weeks especially.

[leftstreet]

5. Now you've done it

K&R

[gateley]

6. Agree, although Obama, Biden and Clinton certainly haven't been slacking. nt

[HughMoran]

9. Grass is always greener

I'd like to believe that, but I don't - I think it's human nature dictating how we feel here on a host of topics.

[BrentWil]

10. Isn't that the guy who couldn't defeat the most boring man in America in the Primary?

Honestly, it wouldn't matter. Most of what he did in 2004 has LONG been copied and VASTLY expanded by both the GOP and us.

[EFerrari]

15. You mean, the guy that Robert Gibbs had to smear up one side

and down the other to defeat?

The guy who won elections for Democrats as DNC chair?

That guy?

And I would bet that DFA is going to be going strong long, long after OFA shuts up shop. Because you really can't fake real grass roots for very long.

[BrentWil]

19. You can't fake election results either. NT

[EFerrari]

22. Oh, yes you can.

[whathehell]

31. You can, however, fake a tape which deletes background noise to make a candidate

shouting over it look unbalanced and "out of control".

This piece of perfidy, played OVER and OVER again on a single weekend, killed Dean's chances.

[BrentWil]

66. THat happened after he was defeated

In Iowa, nonetheless. That is a caucus state. If your organization can't carry you there, it really isn't that much better then other people's organization.


I mean for CHRIST SAKES, the guy came in third and wasn't that close to winning at all.

[whathehell]

101. As I recall, It happened immediately after he was defeated in Iowa...but

Hell, if the ptb thought he was a "loser" they wouldn't have bothered doctoring the tape...Bill Clinton came in third in NH..and he wound up winning the election.

Think what you want..I don't believe it was "over" for him until the tape.

..And STOP YELLING AT ME!!

[BrentWil]

111. Bill Clinton was a good politican.

Howard Dean kind of sucks. I mean, Clinton won and he had every southern women coming out and claiming something.

Dean couldn't win Iowa with Tom Harkin helping and his organization. He won DC and Vermont in the Primary. He wasn't a very good candidate and had little popularity besides the far left.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrentWil]

140. Sorry, I should have been more clear...

He kind of sucks at winning any election outside of Vermont.

Is that better and clearer?

[whathehell]

156. Maybe I should have been more clear..

I think YOU suck at evaluating democrats.:7

Buh Bye!

[BrentWil]

161. There isn't really much to evalurate. Doesn't take much to see a consistent loser

I mean, good guy. Just isn't going to win a national office nor is he the ticket to future victory.

[whathehell]

184. "consistent" loser?.... He ran for president exactly once...elected governor four times... Duh.

You don't like him....Who cares?:shrug:

[BrentWil]

187. He lost 49 states.... therefore the word. NT

[whathehell]

188. He raised 40 million on the internet, w/o party assistance..Know anyone else who did that?

He also CREATED the strategy that won the midterms for the Dems in '06 and Obama the election in '08...Duh.

Of COURSE he "lost"..This country's run by corporations..They wouldn't allow real change so he was sabatoged and taken out.

I'm done here, okay?...I'd suggest you just take your argument to another Dean fan here...As you can see, there are lots to choose from. :hi:

[donheld]

157. -1

[molly77]

145. Howard Dean is too honest to make it in politics in the US

[BrentWil]

152. Perhaps true

Never said he wasn't a good guy. Just that he isn't going to win elections for us.

[whathehell]

191. You're not getting it..

It's not a matter of just being "a good guy"...He's an incredibly VALUABLE guy.:eyes:

[PassingFair]

192. "Winning" in Iowa rarely spells "President"

Clinton got 3% of the Iowa primary vote in his first election.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_caucuses

[Selatius]

74. Talk to Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris the Supreme Court about that. Then get back to me. nt

[Ignis]

103. ROFL

Classic performance art! :thumbsup:

[glitch]

167. Good God, where the hell have you been? nt

[sabrina 1]

124. You mean the man chosen by the party? While Dean was smeared

by the current Press Secretary, Gibbs. That was revealing. Dean was not seen as someone who would go along with the necessary policies to keep Corporate Power intact. I now believe that no one will make to the WH or even get the nomination of either party, unless they have signaled that they understand who the bosses of this country really are. Obama has been very good to Corporate America. Not so good to the American people as is evidenced by the bailouts for Wall St. and so little for the people.

[Grey]

11. Howard's the BOSS..

[glinda]

13. He has been pretty quiet lately.

[EFerrari]

17. I know. I wish he'd open up a think tank or something

so I could support it. Howard Dean is pretty much the politician I've respected most and trusted as an adult and I wasn't even a deaniac when all of that was happening. It was how he conducted himself after that won our respect and admiration.

[xxqqqzme]

45. He has been quite a presence out here in California.

The last few days he's been firing up support for progressive candidates.

[laughingliberal]

16. K & R nt

[DemocraticPilgrim]

23. There ain't nothing like the Dean machine, when he's focused there is no stopping him.

[BrentWil]

119. ummmm... he won like one state and DC when he ran in the DEM primary... Seemed pretty stopped NT

[Radical Activist]

27. Howard Dean is 7 feet tall

and shoots fireballs out his ass!

Howard Dean once breast fed a flamingo back to perfect health!
He jumped off the Empire State Building and only sprained an ankle!

http://www.hulu.com/watch/69478/saturday-night-live-bill-brasky-holiday-inn

[PassingFair]

32. Howard Dean tells the truth. That WOULD seem mythic to a DLCer.

He went after the DLC HEAD-ON....so ....NO...no position for Howard in this administration.

I wouldn't have even KNOWN about the DLC if
it hadn't been for Dean.

http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Transcript_of_Dean_Sacramento_Speech_15March2003.htm

What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the President's unilateral intervention in Iraq?

What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting tax cuts, which have bankrupted this country and given us the largest deficit in the history of the United States?

What I want to know is why the Congress is fighting over the Patient's Bill of Rights? The Patient's Bill of Rights is a good bill, but not one more person gets health insurance and it's not 5 cents cheaper.

What I want to know is why the Democrats in Congress aren't standing up for us, joining every other industrialized country on the face of the Earth in providing health insurance for every man, woman and child in America.

What I want to know is why so many folks in Congress are voting for the President's Education Bill-- "The No School Board Left Standing Bill"-- the largest unfunded mandate in the history of our educational system!

As Paul Wellstone said-- as Sheila Kuehl said when she endorsed me-- I am Howard Dean, and I'm here to represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.

[Radical Activist]

34. Dean was good at channeling anger.

But if you looked at his platform it was hardly any more liberal than Kerry, Gephardt or Edwards. When he wasn't lifting Wellstone's line for liberal audiences he was busy telling other crowds that he was a centrist and fiscal conservative. He was a panderer.
FYI, the original line was "democratic wing of the Democratic Party." Not capitalizing the first "d" is a small detail, but the difference in meaning is important.

[PassingFair]

35. Kerry, Gephardt and Edwards all supported the IWR.

Dean channeled reality, not "anger".

Not that we didn't and don't CONTINUE to
have feelings of ANGER against those that
have let and continue to allow insurance companies
to rip us off; Wall Street to rip us off;
mortgage companies to rip us off;
the war machine to rip us off.

[Radical Activist]

36. What did they all propose going forward?

Dean gets credit for not having to vote on the IWR and later being outspoken against it. But if you looked at their platforms, they were pretty similar about what to do going forward. Dean was a "peace" candidate who said he wouldn't cut defense spending and that we'd need to stay in Iraq another 3-5 years. That's what I call a fraud.
At least Obama specified a timeline for getting our troops out and he's living up to that promise.

[PassingFair]

37. Out of Iraq...and piling them into Afghaniston.

As long as the MIT is still large and
in charge.

Dean was against the IRAQ war. Not a "peace" candidate.
He was against the unfunded "No Child Left Behind".
He was against faith-based initiatives.

He was against the Vichy Dems who enabled
Bush to RAPE our country.

[Radical Activist]

38. It would have been interesting to see the reaction

among liberal audiences if Dean had said he wasn't a peace candidate at the time. I agree that he was no peace candidate, despite all the support he attracted for his rhetoric about the Iraq War. He was a panderer who shrewdly used the fact that he didn't have to vote on the IWR to his advantage. I supported the peace candidate that year.

[PassingFair]

40. He wasn't a panderer.

He felt that Iraq was an illegal war.

Which it was.

EVERY Dean voter I knew, knew that.

[Radical Activist]

41. And yet, he said he'd keep the war going another 3-5 years

and not cut defense spending. That's not an anti-war candidate. That's a fraud who distracted the anti-war movement.

[PassingFair]

42. Puhlease. Once you're in...it's difficult to GET OUT.

That's why he was so vocal against going in.

UNLIKE the non-progressive dems that
enabled that war.

But I'm done fighting with you about the past.

THE MONEY WON.

You should be happy. You should take your marbles
and go home.

[Radical Activist]

43. I know who eventually won.

A candidate who spoke out against the IWR at the time it was voted on, and who is now getting us out of Iraq much faster than Dean ever promised to do. The President who's now cutting defense spending, which Dean never promised to do.

The tricky thing about Dean's rhetoric against the DLC, is that it obscured the reality that his platform was just as moderate as the DLC candidates. It was a ploy to win over liberal voters in the primary. He would have governed no further left than Kerry or Gephardt. He just would have sounded more aggressive while doing it. Some people like performance art. I like progressive policy.

[PassingFair]

54. LOL

Thanks for your omnipotence.

[Radical Activist]

121. I know enough

to judge a candidate based on their actual record and platform instead of being taken in by a panderer who stole a line from Paul Wellstone.

[RaleighNCDUer]

85. You don't give the first flying fuck about progressive policy. Want evidence?

Look at your own posts.

Progressive DLCer is an oxymoron.

[ScreamingMeemie]

88. That won't stop the DLC from trying to co-opt the term.

It makes me sick.

[Radical Activist]

117. My favorite

is the time I was making an argument for a move toward socialism and someone called me a DLCer. My views are very progressive. The fact that I don't hate Obama doesn't make me moderate or DLC. It's really bizarre that anyone on this site thinks so. I was supporting Kucinich '04 so maybe you think he's DLC now too. lol

[Ken Burch]

177. If you actually WERE supporting Kucinich

Why are almost ALL of your posts anti-grassroots and anti-activist?

It can't be progressive to leave it to the Washington insiders. The pathetic shell healthcare was reduced to proves that.

[Radical Activist]

181. It doesn't sound as though

you've read my posts. I'm for activists doing something more significant than whining about Obama as if he's the only elected official in America. I'm against people begging to big brother Obama to hand down change for us, as if it's only up to him. That's what I see coming from you. I'm for organizing, and whining about Obama online isn't real organizing.

[Ken Burch]

182. I'm not saying Obama can be expected to do everything.

What I AM saying is that he was supposed to have a two-way street with the activists-not just give OFA orders from above.

[Radical Activist]

183. I went to some of the first OFA

meetings after the election. Our group said health care and climate change were our top two issues. I heard other groups said the same. Guess what two issues Obama has pushed the most in Congress and in his speeches? Health care and climate change! I believe there's a two way street.

[Ken Burch]

171. Dean wasn't running against Obama

Dean was running against Kerry and Gephardt.

And it goes without saying that either one of them would have kept us in Iraq as long as Bush did.

That's what "we can do it better" and a ban on antiwar signs at the 2004 convention meant.

And we're talking here about Dean as DNC chair, not as candidate.

You know as well as I do that we'd NEVER have taken the House in 2006 if we'd settled for Rahm's futile and defeatist "targeting" approach. Targeting always guarantees that gains can only be tiny.

2000, 2002, and 2004 PROVE that "targeting" will never work for this party again in Congressional races.

[Radical Activist]

174. It goes without saying that

there were plenty of efforts to target races by Dean while he was DNC chair. It's a little naive and simplistic to suggest that wasn't going on, and it always will.

[ProSense]

46. The entire world

is a fantasy.


Video: Dean reacts to capture news

Speaking to reporters Sunday, Dean said, "This is a great day of pride in the American military, a great day for the Iraqis and a great day for the American people and, frankly, a great day for the administration. I think President Bush deserves a day of celebration. We have our policy differences, but we won't be discussing those today. I think he deserves a day to celebrate as well."

link

[EFerrari]

48. Trying to use Howard's basic decency against him?

Classy.

[ProSense]

50. Kerry

called for regime change in the U.S. that very week and slammed Bush for starting the war.

Guess that shows Kerry's lack of decency, huh?

You think anything about these fantasy appeals is classy?

[Ken Burch]

176. It doesn't mean anything that Kerry slammed Bush for STARTING the war

When Kerry's Iraq plank was "We can do it better"(which meant "vote for us and we'll keep the war going as long as Cheney would)rather than "Bring the Troops Home Now!"

And the 2004 fall results proved that Kerry's decision to NOT run as a peace candidate didn't help him at all. Kerry forced the party to keep ALL of its differences with Bush out of the campaign and run instead on the meaningless theme of "I have a resume".

[Ken Burch]

170. Only Dennis Kucinich was for peace in 2004

"We can do it better" was just code for "Bear any burden, fight any foe".

"We can do it better" could NEVER have led to an early end to the Iraq War, since "victory" was always impossible there.

[RaleighNCDUer]

84. Oh, let's see - we need to stay in Iraq another 3-5 years, said in 2004.

So, did we leave in 07? 08? Are we still fucking there NOW?

And is there any real, substantial difference on the ground now, with Obama's withdrawal plan, than there was in 07?

[EFerrari]

47. Howard Dean has a very specific and powerful kind of empathy

with ordinary people that is invisible to people who don't have it. It's not something that can be explained to people who don't have that speed. Other candidates can do all the same things he did but it doesn't mean the same thing because the relationship between them and the public is on a different fundamental footing.

They think it's about using a certain vocabulary or being telegenic or reaching out to certain minorities or young people but it's not about any of that. You can't really fake empathy for long. And you can't fake respect for the public for long, either. Howard actually has those things.

[ProSense]

49. Unlike the President, right?

After all, he has no appeal?

His position on the Cordoba House was really empathetic.

Heroic?

[EFerrari]

51. It argues a poverty of spirit to be unable to give a man his due.

And Dean's position on Cordoba House was an ethical one but please don't ask me to explain ethics to you.

[ProSense]

52. How corny and ironic

How about giving the President and Kaine their due?

[Ken Burch]

179. Tim Kaine HAS no due coming.

He's been a total failure. Our loss of three governorships and a safe U.S. Senate seat since 2008 proves that. Tim Kaine doesn't seem to care if this party wins anything.

[Radical Activist]

56. George Lakoff.

Dean learned Lakoffian framing well. He used words and phrases that appeal to liberals to sell them a centrist platform. It was impressive in a way. To this day, Dean's greatest talent is picking up on the complaints of the netroots and repeating it back to them. Some people still eat that up, but I'm interested in actions more than performance art.

[EFerrari]

60. Exhibit A. n/t

[Radical Activist]

118. So the failure to worship Dean means a person isn't empathetic enough?

Wow. You really aren't allowed to say anything about Obama supporters after a comment like that. WTF

[RaleighNCDUer]

86. Well, I must say

he never called his base 'fucking retards'.

[treestar]

58. THat sounds as if you're looking for a superman to save us all

And since Howard is on the outs, he seems to be it. If he were in office or in charge of whatever, you'd learn he is human too.

[EFerrari]

59. So in your opinion, having empathy makes you super human?

:)

[ScreamingMeemie]

87. Scary, isn't it?

:)

[Ken Burch]

158. You can't honestly believe we don't owe Dean's ideas any credit.

Why can't you just accept that everything's gone downhill for us in electoral terms since he was forced out?

[Radical Activist]

168. hahaha

Obama took over the DNC and won by the biggest margin of any President since LBJ. We haven't had a major election since then so there's no basis for you to claim that everything has gone downhill. In many way, OFA is surpassing what the DNC did under Dean.

The 50 state strategy was good thing to do. It was good to have a DNC Chair who did more than raise money and spend it in a few select races. Beyond that, his impact is embellished by his fan club.

[Ken Burch]

169. The 50 state strategy is STILL needed

And we've lost three governors races and a Senate seat since 2008, ALL of which we should have been able to count on holding in landslides. It goes without saying, for example, that Teddy Kennedy's Senate seat would STILL be Democratic if Dean was running the DNC.

There's no reason for you to see Dean as a rival or a threat to Obama. Keeping him there and keeping the 50 State Strategy going could only have HELPED the party, and that could only have helped Obama.

It didn't have to be the prez's way or nothing. It's only the Republicans who are supposed to run their campaigns like that.

[Radical Activist]

172. LOL

You think Dean could have saved Ted Kennedy's seat? You have an inflated sense of how important Dean and any DNC chair is in the outcome of an election. It almost always comes down to the candidate.
"50 state strategy" is a slogan now. OFA is doing better, even if they're not using the slogan so many have developed a fetish for.

I don't see Dean as a threat to Obama. That's all in your head. I just don't see him as the messianic figure you apparently believe him to be. A lot of candidates have moved left during the Democratic Presidential primary but few have been so shamelessly phony about it as Dean.

[Ken Burch]

175. I'm talking about Dean as DNC chair...NOT as candidate

and if OFA was doing better, we wouldn't be looking at a situation in which we'd be seen a 25 seat loss in the House as a moral victory.

I didn't support Dean as a presidential candidate. I backed Dennis. My point is simply about what you need to run the DNC. You can't deny that everything Kaine's done has been a total failure and that he needs to be replaced as soon as possible.

[Radical Activist]

178. I'm writing about Dean.

For future reference, using cliches like "it goes without saying" or "you can't deny that" doesn't make a statement any less ridiculous.

You don't know that we're in a bad situation. You don't know that we'll lose 25 house seats. You don't know that it would be any different if Dean were DNC chair.

[Ken Burch]

180. There's no way things would be this precarious if the DNC was still trying

to build the party in every state in the country.

It's done us no good at all to go back the old and always-pointless targeting approach and to give up again on breaking the right-wing grip on the South.

And OFA was NEVER supposed to be a group where the activists were just told to work for the prez's ideas and weren't to have any say in policy themselves. Top-down politics is always right-wing.

[whathehell]

194. No...That's Obama..

:eyes:

[BigBearJohn]

Wouldn't it be great if Howard Dean joined hands with Alan Grayson to pull the dems through

[BigBearJohn]

28. Wouldn't it be great if Howard Dean joined hands with Alan Grayson to pull the dems through

[BrentWil]

67. Yeah, for the GOP NT

[leeroysphitz]

33. Fuckin' A! I'm sick of these fence sitting centrists running the party into the ground.

Man It's hard to believe what they managed to piss away in two short years. :(

[Enthusiast]

91. And what we now call "centrists"...

Piss away is a kind way to say it.

[whathehell]

193. Are really conservatives...and would have been called "republicans" before

1990.

I suspect many here are too young to even remember Democrats BEFORE they went to the Right.

[AtomicKitten]

39. I like Howard Dean but his elevation to demigod here is not particularly healthy or helpful. nt

[ProSense]

44. Howard Dean:

Howard Dean Peers Into The Enthusiasm Gap

An NPR poll out this week showed that Democrats may be closing the gap in a number of Congressional races across the country, but most polls still show an enthusiasm gap. Republicans seem more committed to voting than many Democrats. Host Scott Simon talks with Howard Dean, former Vermont governor and Democratic National Committee chairman, about the Democrats' prospects in the November midterm elections.

SCOTT SIMON, host:

Howard Dean joins us now. Of course, he's the former governor of Vermont and former chairman of the Democratic National Committee. He joins us on the phone from San Francisco.

Governor, thanks so much for being with us.

Mr. HOWARD DEAN (Former Democratic Governor, Vermont): Thanks for having me on.

SIMON: An NPR poll showed this week the Democrats may be closing the gap in a number of congressional races across the country. But most polls still show this enthusiasm gap, that Republicans seem a little bit more committed to voting than many Democrats. Do you accept that?

Mr. DEAN: Yes. I think that's right. I do think we're going to hold the House and the Senate. I'm one of a dwindling minority of people in Washington, but we always know that Washington often gets it wrong. Usually gets it wrong. Because I think at the end of the day the enthusiasm gap is dissipating.

The president's out there talking all the time about the differences between the parties. He's essentially done what he had to do, which is make this election a choice, not a referendum. If it's a choice, the Democrats are going to do OK.

<...>

SIMON: But what about this election cycle? Is it hard to make the case for it now?

Mr. DEAN: I don't think we should be making the case right now. Elections are not the time to educate people. You win the election, then you educate people afterwards. But the president's doing what he should be doing. This is a bare-knuckle fight. It's between the far right, which has taken over the Republican Party, and the rest of us.

SIMON: Governor, if an electoral campaign isn't the time to try and educate the public, when is that time?

Mr. DEAN: It's while the bill's passing. And we didn't do so well, I don't think, in that one. But, you know, that's not part of this debate. That's part of another debate later on. Right now we've got to focus on the election.

SIMON: As chairman of the Democratic National Committee you hatched the 50-state strategy to make the party competitive all over the country, not writing off some states in which it was considered to be not competitive. And, of course, when you ran for president in 2004, you are credited with creating the Internet fundraising strategy that turned out to be so successful then, even more successful a couple of years ago. What's the next big idea do you think Democratic candidates should pay attention to?

Mr. DEAN: Well, you know, in fairness, our campaign didn't get the big idea. What we saw is ordinary people doing things that were far more sophisticated than what we were doing.

What the president's campaign - which I thought was probably the best campaign I've ever seen, in certainly the Democratic Party, and maybe ever - did was utilize things that were already there, that had already been invented: Facebook, MySpace. That wasn't there when we were campaigning, but the Obama people figured out how to use that to their advantage.

more

DNC

Still, is the notion that Dean being DNC chairman would make the economy, the candidates and the President vastly more appealing?

[Heidi]

53. Yeah, he's handsome, charismatic and all, but what has he done for WE THE PEOPLE, lately,

and by "WE THE PEOPLE," I mean using his influence in meaningful ways. Have you we heard him doing anything more difficult than spanking Tea Baggers or not taking a position on Boxer/Brown?

Bring the scream, Dr. Dean. We who exist alongside your true believers would like to see what you've got. Ethically, your hands aren't tied. You can do and say anything you want. Where _are_ you?

[whathehell]

195. Forget "handsome and charismatic"...He kicks ass....A rare an valuable quality in Democrats lately.

His ability to do anything for "we the people" was effectively and substantially undercut by Rahm/Obama.

[TexasObserver]

55. Indeed, it is a rudderless vessel.

Dean did a great job as party chair. Now, it's much less than what it was.

[treestar]

57. Was he in charge in 2004 or other years where the Rs won Congress?

Why would an entire party be so dependent on one man and expect to ever win anything? :wtf:

[EFerrari]

61. No, when Dean was running the DNC, we won. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. Do You Think The Fact There Was A Wildly Unpopular President?

Do you think the fact there was a wildly unpopular president, two wildly unpopular wars, and a nascent recession had anything to do with Democratic success?

Do you think we won 49 House seats in 1974 because Bob Strauss was a political maven (he might have been) or because the Republicans were the party of the president who resigned in disgrace?

You have to factor in the political terrain when assessing party success or failure. If the Republicants have a great election I won't be calling Micheal Steele a genius. I'll say he was in the right place at the right time.

[EFerrari]

63. Do you not remember all the times the Democrats snatched defeat from the jaws of victory?

Obviously, every contest has a context. And Dean performed very well when he was up.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. Vince Lombardi Said "Luck In When Preparation Meets Opportinty"

Howard Dean deserves credit but he had the wind at his back.

I go back to Michael Steele. The guy is a complete tool. But the Republicants are poised to do well.

[EFerrari]

71. Michael Steele actually proves my point.

The Republicans are poised to do well (the context) and Steele has done nothing to build their infrastructure whatsoever. He has done nothing visible to gotv. He has in fact been an embarrassment to his party which generally frowns on excursions to strip clubs -- at least in public they do.

If the powers that be turned on Steele, he'd be out of there in a heartbeat. In contrast, Dean has been in California mobilizing voters and he has no official position whatsoever.

[ProSense]

76. Oh brother.

So Republicans are simply coasting to victory?

The Democratic Party doesn't exist?

"Dean has been in California mobilizing voters and he has no official position whatsoever"

So is he going to get credit for rescuing these elections or blamed for failing to do enough?

Dean is not the Democratic Party's savior.

[EFerrari]

79. Savior is your term. He's an effective Democratic leader

hence the OP.

As for the rest, maybe you've been handling those blue things too long because they have nothing to do with my post.

[ProSense]

80. Then why hasn't he been able

to convince more voters to turn out? You claim he's turning out the vote in CA. Why hasn't his leadership been noticeable during this election?

The media pundits are raving about Clinton's effectiveness.

[EFerrari]

82. The media pundits job is to rave, isn't it.

And to have that raving distributed.

:)

[RaleighNCDUer]

96. And we know how much the media loves Dean.

After all, he was one who actually talked about restoring the fairness doctrine.

Which Clinton signed away.

[ProSense]

73. Exactly,

Michael Steele is a moron, and being RNC chair has very little to do with likely gains by Republicans.

That being said, Dean took advantage of a movement, as he mentions here:

<...>

SIMON: As chairman of the Democratic National Committee you hatched the 50-state strategy to make the party competitive all over the country, not writing off some states in which it was considered to be not competitive. And, of course, when you ran for president in 2004, you are credited with creating the Internet fundraising strategy that turned out to be so successful then, even more successful a couple of years ago. What's the next big idea do you think Democratic candidates should pay attention to?

Mr. DEAN: Well, you know, in fairness, our campaign didn't get the big idea. What we saw is ordinary people doing things that were far more sophisticated than what we were doing.

What the president's campaign - which I thought was probably the best campaign I've ever seen, in certainly the Democratic Party, and maybe ever - did was utilize things that were already there, that had already been invented: Facebook, MySpace. That wasn't there when we were campaigning, but the Obama people figured out how to use that to their advantage.

<...>

He deserves credit for that. Still, that doesn't take away from what the DNC's successes

[RaleighNCDUer]

94. Republicans are poised to do well?

They have a civil war going on right now. We SHOULD be crushing them, working the fissure between the mainstream republicans and the tea party.

If the DNC, under this administration, can't take advantage of what OUGHT to be a fatal weakness for the 'pubs, it is our own fucking fault, and the credit for their wins will go to US, not to Steele.

[ProSense]

97. Well,

"They have a civil war going on right now. We SHOULD be crushing them, working the fissure between the mainstream republicans and the tea party."

And yet Republicans are going to vote.


"If the DNC, under this administration, can't take advantage of what OUGHT to be a fatal weakness for the 'pubs, it is our own fucking fault,"

I agree. If everyone votes and stop waiting for Howard Dean, Democrats will crush the Republicans.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

99. There Might Well Be A Conservative Crackup But It Won't Happen In The Next Ten Days

We have to see if the Tea Baggers will be successfully co-opted like every other major third party in the history of the republic. However, the economy trumps every other issue and unless it improves we might find ourselves in the same predicament in 2012.


on edit- I don't see any quick fix for our economic problems from any quarter. Maybe the economy is permanently broken.

[LaPera]

68. Howard Dean has always been my man - Coincidentally, just before I logged onto DU I sent a donation

to the DNC - Tim Kaine is certainly no Howard Dean (but who is).

Still, the DNC needs and could use the bucks for the home stretch against the republicans corporate money, (no shit) so I helped out with what I could donate....Hope you will too!

http://www.democrats.org/

[tritsofme]

70. You should write a book about it.

I'm always game for a good fantasy novel.

[DFW]

83. Don't we know it!

I think he does too, although he's too diplomatic to come out and say so himself.

[Unvanguard]

89. I'm sure Howard Dean has a great deal to do with the unemployment rate. n/t

[grahamhgreen]

109. The slave-trade agreements are why we have no jobs.

[democrank]

90. K & R

[ProSense]

92. If Dean were head of the DNC, people would not be upset about unemployment. n/t

[defendandprotect]

149. MEDICARE FOR ALL would have created 2.3 million new jobs .....

and have freed Americans from great personal expenses --

PLUS would have helped businesses compete more effectively since they

wouldn't have had to assist employees with huge medical/insurance costs!

It would also have helped our towns and states -- which are carrying large

benefit costs for insurance for health care -- and then seeing that employees

still aren't getting the care they deserve!!

[Stinky The Clown]

100. Well .... IMHO ......

.... I totally agree!

[WillyT]

106. HUGE K & R !!!

:kick:

[grahamhgreen]

107. Public option is all it takes. Or get out of Iraqistan.

[MissDeeds]

110. K&R

:kick:

[Uzybone]

112. Foolish talk

the party in power always losses seats. Dean is not a magician.

[Ken Burch]

159. We'd have held the GOP to gains in the single figures if Dean was still at the DNC

And the party in power DOESN'T always lose big at the mid-terms.

We didn't under FDR in '34 or JFK in '62. They didn't under Dubbikins in '02.

[Uzybone]

113. Foolish talk

the party in power always losses seats. Dean is not a magician.

[laughingliberal]

116. Rec nt

[SemperEadem]

120. yup--it's the truth

he's proven his strategy works.

[swilton]

123. If the candidates in the Democratic Party

were like Howard Dean - this year's elections wouldn't even be a contest.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Demeter]

126. But Howard Dean is NOT in Charge

Quite frankly, it looks like Goldman Sachs is in charge.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

127. But....but....Tim Kaine gave us a new logo!

Hater!

[defendandprotect]

147. A donkey kicking itself -- ????

:evilgrin:

[politicalmajority]

128. Amen! Where Howard Dean Goes There Is a Victory!

Good thing Rahm Emanuel is not in the White House anymore.

[Davis_X_Machina]

173. I remeber President Dean's second term fondly... n/t

[emsimon33]

129. The hubris of Obama

Had Dean not been successful with the 50-state strategy, there is no way that Obama, even with his election team, would have been elected. So what does he do, he dismantles the 50-state strategy. After all, all those motivated activists are f*cking retards and are the cause of all the problems!

Dean saved the Democratic Party and all those in charge do is take credit where the credit is not due them but due Dean.

From Greek tragedy, we all know what the result of hubris is.

[ProSense]

130. The fantasy of Dean

Reality:

Mr. DEAN: Well, you know, in fairness, our campaign didn't get the big idea. What we saw is ordinary people doing things that were far more sophisticated than what we were doing.

What the president's campaign - which I thought was probably the best campaign I've ever seen, in certainly the Democratic Party, and maybe ever - did was utilize things that were already there, that had already been invented: Facebook, MySpace. That wasn't there when we were campaigning, but the Obama people figured out how to use that to their advantage.

More reality

[andym]

131. Well, it would probably be somewhat better with Dean

but with strong Republican propaganda in the MSM,
and large sums of corporate money funding misleading ads,
a bad economy,
and a visceral dislike of the President by conservatives,
the Republicans would still be a strong position.....

[derby378]

133. Howard Dean is one of the main reasons I'm a Democrat

My immensely patient wife was the other main reason. I still miss her every single day.

My dad and I talked about Dean not that long ago. Dad, who has always been conservative, thought Dean hurt his own image with "the Dean scream," while I countered that this was merely Dean injecting a little passion into American politics, which has often been rather dry in recent years.

Dean had a vision for Democrats as a whole. The core of the party seems to be rejecting it in favor of the illusion of neoliberalism. But I do not forget, and I still think fondly of what Dean has done for the party.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Life Long Dem]

136. I thought the same thing when I saw him on the news last week.

He had the 50 states GOTV thing, and where is that now?

[BrklynLiberal]

137. IMHO as well.

:thumbsup: :hi:

[KoKo]

143. Yes...I could agree with this. I think I've seen Tim Kaine maybe three times on TV

since the Election. Granted I don't watch a lot of TV..but I read sites who monitor Dems on the TV...and his absence is glaring in an election time...!

He's really a dork. He should never have been picked.

GO HOWARD...you got DEMS ON COMPUTER ACCESSIBLE DATABASE in NORTH CAROLINA! You GAVE US MONEY TO DO IT!

YOU INCREASED ACTIVISM IN STATES DEMS GAVE UP ON! YOU WILL FOREVER BE BLESSED HERE IN NC...for WHAT YOU DID FOR PROGRESSIVE DEMS! AND...DENNIS KUCINICH'S ACTIVISTS from that ELECTION PITCHED IN WITH DEAN and GOT THE JOB DONE!

[defendandprotect]

146. FIRE Kaine .... and had Obama not made a deal to keep health care PRIVATIZED .....

had he gone with public option and MEDICARE FOR ALL --

Dems would be set for next 40 years!!!

[Lost4words]

189. agreed! nt

[whathehell]

196. Yes...but avoiding that would have required integrity and guts and those are rare, if valuable

qualities.

Dean had those..I see few others in the party who do.:shrug:

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taverner]

154. Yes. Yes Yes.

The man is not only a great Pol - he's insanely intelligent

[RedCloud]

155. Don't concede. Make the repuppetagains waste money everywhere.

[unkachuck]

165. K&R....n/t

[calimary]

185. Wish I could recommend this. Found it too late.

But I can kick it!

Howard Dean STILL rocks! My heart STILL belongs to Hollerin' Howard! And he STILL speaks for me!

:patriot: :kick: :fistbump:

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

190. You do realize that the 50 State strategy--great as it was--was responsible for putting

many of the DLC and Blue Dogs into office for the first time, many of them unseating Republicans in heavily-Republican districts?

Dr. Dean is great, but the painful truth is that not all Americans think as we do. And not all Americans are liberal like we are.

The 50 State strategy's great achievement was giving us large majorities.

The 50 State strategy's worst outcome was giving us more Blue Dog and Republican sympathizers.

I'm not sure if Dr. Dean could change the outcome, especially not in this environment. However, Kaine has been a huge disappointment!