Poverty and desperation in upstate New York

[lapislzi]

I say "upstate" because that's technically where I live, although it's a ten-minute drive to the Clintons' mansion, and those of other luminaries. The median income for our county is substantially higher than the national average, and my own income is higher than that. I say all this by way of backstory...because all is not rosy in our little corner of the world.

In my heavily red county, there are close to zero social services of any kind. And we've got rabid nutzoids all over the place frothing at the mouth about immigrants and taxes. We have a big immigrant population that serves the many small construction, landscaping, etc. businesses that are the backbone of our county. And everyone is feeling the pinch. People are putting off home repairs, cutting back on their discretionary expenses...these small businesses are taking the hit. They're hanging on, but it's tough.

Cut to my daughter's boyfriend. Until this week, he lived with his parents in a crappy apartment in the crappiest apartment complex in town. Dad is in HVAC and has been unemployed for a year when his company folded. Mom has no marketable skills and hasn't worked for years either. They drive an old clunker and both look 10 years older than they are.

On Monday, they vanished. Boy stopped going to school. My daughter is frantic. I correctly guessed that they were evicted, are now homeless. We don't even know where they are, although I suspect they'll move south (where they have relatives) if they haven't already.

HVAC. You go to school for that (the boy was in the HVAC program at the vocational high school). That's a skill. They always need HVAC people. Or so they tell you. You go to school for a trade, there's an expectation. And it's not an unreasonable, pie-in-the-sky expectation. It's an expectation that your training will lead to employment. I don't know any rich guys in HVAC (admittedly, I don't know many people in HVAC). Is there something wrong with wanting to ply your trade and make a reasonable living?

My daughter wants to help in any way we can. When they still had housing, I always gave the kid a good meal and sent him home with the leftovers because "silly me, I cooked all the pasta. We can never eat all this." I always gave him a lift home so his parents wouldn't need to drive. But what can we do now, now that this family has vanished into the ranks of the Great Invisible?

Because that's what they are. Invisible. You drive past the crowds of men waiting for day labor on your way to work. You don't even see them. They all have families.

I don't even know where I'm going with this crazy post. All I know is that I am deeply saddened in a way that I wasn't yesterday, or the day before. It's touched me. It's not abstract. And I ache. For every homeless family, for every person who can't afford medicine, for every kid who's going to bed hungry.

Thanks, DU. Comments and suggestions welcome.

[closeupready]

1. K&R

Don't really have any comments per se, except thanks for sharing this sad story. It's a good reality check on people who suggest things are better.

Things are NOT better. A friend of mine who had recently found a job - got laid off on Sunday. :(

Also keep hearing of continued cutbacks around town here (NY). :(

[G_j]

2. it's happening everywhere

:-(

[xxqqqzme]

5. Yes it is. The food bank here

ran out of food in August! A $20 donation generates $60 worth of food. I operate on a tight budget but I can still buy food so I donate to the food bank.

[county worker]

6. A food bank here has people outside the grocery store giving out a list of food they need.

You can add those items to what you buy and give it to the person on your way out. A couple of things they had on the list was dry cereal and Ricearroni. We spent about 40$ on cereal and ricearoni and gave it to them. The smile and thanks gave us such a good feeling!

[daleanime]

3. It's always more real.....

when you see it, that's why so many turn away. Thank you for not being one of them.
:hug:

[county worker]

4. We need to make these people more visible. We need to make the problems in this country visible.

Yesterday I saw a guy, maybe in his 40's. He was obviously homeless. He was unconscious or dead I don't know which. A woman was on the phone calling 911. I heard an ambulance and people running to help him. Where the hell was the help when he was alive and well but needed help?

If people saw a stray animal that needed help there would be any number of people coming to it's aid. But let that be a homeless person and it is different.

I think that we really can't handle what is going on in the country. We can process it. We can't deal with it. We don't want to have to think about it.

[closeupready]

8. That's an accurate observation, IMO.

People sometimes seem to care more about dogs and animals, bending over backwards to give them food and shelter, rather than other people who also need food and shelter.

[bobbolink]

11. You are exactly right, but your observation will likely only draw ire from "progressives".

After Katrina, when the furor had died down and those homeless people who had been bussed all over the country were quietly being tossed out of the housing they had, the number of suicides was HUGE. (And shameful and totally avoidable.)

Yet, what was making the news was people going down to the Katrina area, "rescuing" animals, taking them to their home states and spending the energy and money to foster them, and then working hard to get them adopted.

NOTHING. FOR. THE. PEOPLE. LEFT. HOMELESS.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[ThomasQED]

31. This comment is absolutely despicable.

Of all the money given to charities, the vast majority goes to human charities. By numbers, far more animals suffer than humans.

It is not your place to tell people what to care about and what to spend their money on. Have you determined which cause hurts the most people? Please tell us so we can all abandon every single issue except that one. If only humans were able to care about more than one thing at a time!

My observation has been that people who care about animals also care about people, but it does not necessarily work the other way around.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[adigal]

51. I agree with you, animals suffer terribly in this country

800 dogs and cats are killed in the US each HOUR, because of idiots who don't spay or neuter, or people who buy from pet stores, which support puppy mills. We turn a blind eye to this, that many states still use the gas chamber and millions of puppies are killed, too.

[mudplanet]

53. Hasn't been my observation. We have an animal shelter here that

is air conditioned. Beautiful place. They never put any animal down except feral cats. Really well run.

But nothing, nothing for homeless people. Craigslist is full of sad, sad stories about animals, but not one thing about homeless, ill people.

[bobbolink]

55. Thank you. Something is terribly out of whack with our values.

[mudplanet]

58. I'm 100% behind ASCPA but something IS wacky.

[closeupready]

63. What an absolutely despicable comment!!!! 1111 !!!!

:sarcasm:

[bobbolink]

10. Quote that pairs with your story

"In the book One Nation, Underprivileged, this account was recorded: "Even more jarring was the death of a homeless woman at a bus stop across the street from the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Inside, officials were debating the budget to be allocated for programs for the homeless. One HUD employee looking out a window toward the scene "grew sardonic counting seven police cars, two police motorcycles, a fire truck and an ambulance. 'It's just strange to see how many resources a person gets after they die--not a fraction of that beforehand,' she said"."

" Appropriations for HUD's subsidized housing programs dropped 81 percent, after adjusting for inflation, between fiscal years 1978 and 1991. By 1989, only one out of three of the 7.5 million renters with incomes below the official poverty line received a rental subsidy from any governmental housing program or lived in public housing. Meanwhile, there was a sharp increase in federal housing subsidies that primarily benefit middle- and upper-income families, namely mortgage interest and property tax deductions. In fiscal year 1990, direct spending on federal low-income housing assistance programs totaled $18.3 billion. More than four times as much was spent through the tax code in the form of homeowner deductions, amounting to some $78.4 billion, disproportionately benefiting those with higher incomes. In 1991, about 81 percent of the $37 billion in tax benefits from deductible mortgage interest went to the top 20 percent of households, with incomes above $50,000. “
Streets of Hope: The Fall and Rise Of An Urban Neighborhood
Peter Medoff and Holly Sklar

From my PowerPoint script, copyrighted by peoplesing.org

So, think of the subsidies YOU receive.

All of these facts, and many more, should be KNOWN by all those who call themselves "progressive".

[county worker]

13. A reduction in my taxes is not a subsidy. Just this week I was working on a renewal application

for a HUD homeless grant. That's what I do for a living. I am in county administration in an alcohol, drug and mental health services dept.

When you compare tax law with homeless grants you are comparing apples to oranges. If it were not for the deductions for interest and taxes on home ownership there would be less people able to afford homes and less of an real estate market and less need for construction workers etc. Yet part of the taxes I do pay goes to the HUD programs I help to administer.

Personally I am grateful for the fact that I am able to work and pay for my daily bread and thus I give to homeless people when ever I can and buy food for food banks.

Being grateful enables me to do more for the homeless than most people do.

[bobbolink]

15. I understand your need for denial.

I also understand you like to disagree with me.

This time, take issue with the ones who are quoted. And there are many more quotes just like it.

Face it.

"If it were not for the deductions for interest and taxes on home ownership there would be less people able to afford homes and less of an real estate market and less need for construction workers etc. "

Of course. You are admitting that you ARE subsidized, and defending that it is a help to you and others.

It would also be a help to homeless people to have the funds for low-income housing, PLUS it would also add to the economy, just like food stamps do.

What is REALLY disgusting is that, if you actually read it, MOST of those subsidized deductions go to RICH PEOPLE FOR SECOND, THIRD AND FOURTH INSANELY EXPENSIVE HOMES.

But keep defending it.

[county worker]

16. I understand your need to define everyone and everything in a way that suits your limited

view of the world!

[bobbolink]

17. I understand your need to vilify me and ignore the sources and quotes.

Denial reigns.

[county worker]

19. And you have no real life experiences. Hell anyone can find quotes to support their way of thinking

[bobbolink]

22. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!

That is really scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[dionysus]

27. do you have any idea how many people you turn against your cause by lashing out at ppl on your own

side?

[ThomCat]

35. I've noticed that it's usually people who didn't listen to her when

she was being kind and polite, and ignore her for not making a strong enough point. Then blame for making too strong a point. So she can't win either way.

If she's going to get ignored for being kind, and going to get bashed for being "too mean," then you're not going to ever listen to her no matter what approach she takes. :shrug:

See if you can do a better job. I don't see you trying to be an advocate for homeless people and the issues of the very poor.

[ThomCat]

34. How the hell would you possibly know that?

And, by what possible delusional stretch of the imagination is being homeless NOT a real life experience? What world do you live in?

I have been homeless. I have also been a corporate telecom management consultant in Manhattan for global corporations. I have been a an activist and volunteering for causes was my hobby for years. I have had far more than the normal share of real life experiences.

Just from reading posts, I'll bet that I can have more conversations with Bobolink about real life than I could with you. :eyes:

Before you resort to belittling people who don't agree with your republican talking point, consider where you are, and listen to the people around you.

[county worker]

18. Look, I live in a planned community that has affordable housing. It is administered by the county

I work for. My high homeowners dues pay for the upkeep of the affordable housing and the swimming pool, baseball diamonds, tennis courts and other playground equipment that the kids in the affordable housing use. Kids of all economic levels play together here as do the adults. You don't understand half of what you think you do!

[bobbolink]

20. I understand your need to deny and defend. The facts speak for themselves.

MORE federal money goes to subsidize housing for middle income people than for low-income people, and saying I "don't know what I'm talking about" is a personal attack that doesn't square with the facts.

I will repeat.. the WORST is that the bulk of the subsidies go to the wealthiest for multiple insanely expensive mansions. I guess you defend that, also.

Just because you don't like the facts doesn't mean they aren't facts, and making personal insults and attacks because you don't like the facts is pathetic.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

29. i see you've met bob.

:rofl:

[AlecBGreen]

37. hey bobbolink

could you point me to some data that shows this?

"...the bulk of the {housing} subsidies go to the wealthiest..."

I dont doubt you, Im just curious where you saw this. I get into "discussions" with a right-wing friend over this all the time, and I point out that the wealthiest tend to get more than their fair share of subsidies in this country, despite their cries to the contrary. Any info you could share would be appreciated. Thanks :hi:

[bobbolink]

38. the info is in my post # 10. There are also other resources with the same sort of info.

In terms of really good housing information, in my opinion, the very best is WRAP's "Without Housing".

http://www.wraphome.org/downloads/without_housing.pdf

edited to say: If you look at page 37 of that report, you will see more info about the upper income housing subsidies. Then look at page 39 -- "Housing Welfare For The Well-Off" The chart on page 40 is pretty clear. Let me know if that helps, OK?


If you are unfamiliar with all the information, it may take a bit of rereading of it from time to time to acquaint yourself with the facts of the matter, because this is not what most people are used to thinking about.

I very much appreciate that you are willing to read and learn, and doubly thank you for being willing to discuss it with others. That is the only way this whole sordid mess will ever change. No amount of charity is going to prevent other people from becoming homeless!

Thank you again for your interest! :yourock:

[mudplanet]

54. I know that here in my town there are literally hundreds of multi-million dollar

homes that are occupied about 10% of the time. Our schools suck and property taxes are very low yet the conservatives continually fight any increase. As far as I'm concerned property taxes on second, third and forth homes should be astronomical. Although there is a ski resort near here, this isn't a "resort town," it's a real city where ordinary working people struggle on a daily basis to make do and the average income is lower than the national average.

[bobbolink]

56. I think you have a very good idea .... very high property taxes on second, third, etc. homes.

Of course, since John McBush doesn't even know how many homes he owns, he may be in for a bit of sticker shock. :evilgrin:

Really, when people are that rich, they need to be pulling their fair share. There are so many people who can barely eke out their mortgage, and their taxes are paying for the rich to get by with paying very little. It really is crazy.

Your idea deserves some serious discussion! How 'bout an OP just on that? Would you?

[mudplanet]

60. Yea, sure. I've never owned a home but I have some knowledge of the issue.

Another thing that should be discussed is homestead exemption. In Louisiana one of the few progressive policies they have is a high homestead exemption law. By state law there can be no tax levied on something like the first $40K of value of a person's primary residence.

But this idea isn't new. It's simple progressive taxation. Conservatives hate it. They call it 'social engineering' as though a policy of letting predatory capitalism and the free market shape your society and culture isn't social engineering in itself. You can't NOT have social engineering.

You want to keep the cost of housing affordable, simply impose a steep progressive tax on real estate. If the tax rate on a $100K home is 1% but the tax rate on a $200K home is 10% and on a $300K home is 30% the real estate market will adjust itself to produce less expensive homes.

The same principle can be applied to all kinds of problems. You want to encourage people to drive highly efficient cars, simply impose a steep progressive tax on any passenger vehicle based on its mpg and it's original purchase price: it should cost $1 a year to register a car that gets 50mpg and cost under $10K to buy, $100 a year to register a car that gets 40mpg, $1000 a year to register a vehicle that gets less than 30mpg. There are problems with this scheme (for instance, poor people with old cars would be penalized for not having enough money to buy a new efficient car) but ways to adjust for this could be found.

But all of these ideas will be attacked by conservatives as "social engineering" as though NOT having a progressive taxation scheme ISN'T social engineering!

[AlecBGreen]

67. that is eye-opening

thank you for posting.

As a homeowner, I am very glad that I can write off the interest on my loan. My wife and I have a combined income of ~$50,000 which puts us right smack in the middle of the median income. We purchased a house for just under $200,000 with 20% down so our mortgage is ~$150,000. Our monthly PITI payment (PrincipleIntrestTaxesInsurance) is ~$1000. Since the majority of that is intrest on the loan, we will be able to recoup taxes on approximately $12,000 in payments each year. That money is taxed at the federal level at about %15 so we will get back approximately $1800 this year. That is HUGE for us and will allow us to pay down college debt. I am planning on starting a business but I will not have the necessary capital (or desire to dig myself deeper in debt) until we are debt free. In my opinion, this tax exemption is a good thing that will help me directly stiumulate the economy, quicker. If our tax code were sensible, those at the tip top of the bracket get no exemption. The public good isnt served by giving the uber-rich more money.

"No amount of charity is going to prevent other people from becoming homeless!" I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. As a society, I believe we should help those who are most in need but not (except in rare circumstances) give endless handouts. The goal should be to get as many people as possible to become productive members of society. Its the moral thing to do and its the compassionate thing to do. There are some freeloaders who want nothing more than to game the system to get a free ride. While the conservative bloc in this country cries out its the poor welfare queens of America draining the coffers, I disagree. I think the super-rich leech more money than anyone from the rest of our pockets.

OK, </tirade>. Keep up the good fight bobbolink. :hi:

[Romulox]

44. A) It is absolutely a subsidy; B) the subsidy distorts the real estate market,

inflating the bubble, and making housing less affordable for regular people.

[bobbolink]

66. Well said! "Do you live in subsidized housing?"

Do You Live in Subsidized Housing? The Answer Might Suprise You…
By Will Flagle
What do you think of when you hear the words “subsidized housing?” A nice, big suburban home with a white picket fence? …Didn’t think so. For many people, “subsidized housing” is associated with decayed high-rise apartments, not well-manicured suburban homes. Similarly, most associate housing aid with low-income families, not more affluent ones. The numbers, however, tell a different story. As shown in Fig. 1, federal housing subsidies are disproportionately distributed to higher-income households.

?w=450
Figure 1. Source: Hockett, McElwee, Pelletiere, and Schwartz. January 2005. The Crisis in America’s Housing: Confronting Myths and Promoting a Balanced Housing Policy

****I don't know why the graphic isn't coming through... well worth seeing********
Observing the disparity in subsidies, Peter Dreier, Professor of Politics at Occidental College, has written:

Most Americans think that federal housing assistance is a poor people’s program. In fact, relatively few low-income Americans receive federal housing subsidies. In contrast, about three-fourths of wealthy Americans—many living in very large homes—get housing subsidies from Washington in the form of tax breaks.<1>

How is it that the biggest beneficiaries of subsidized housing are affluent households? Today, the federal government spends about four times as much subsidizing homeownership as it does rental affordability and most of those homeowner subsidies go to wealthy homeowners. How so? Government support for homeownership is primarily provided through tax subsidies like the mortgage interest deduction.<2><3> However, “over one-half (59 percent) of the mortgage interest deduction subsidy goes to the richest 10.2% of taxpayers,” which is why the deduction is also known as the “mansion subsidy.” <4>

http://talktostambrose.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/do-you-live-in-subsidized-housing/

[Romulox]

45. Edit: dupe nt

[w8liftinglady]

14. we DO need to inform ourselves,and others

i started my children at an early age...helping those in need.i told them to not reject the homeless and poor,because that could be anyone at some point in their life.We helped them with food and cash,volunteered at the homeless shelter.you have to start by doing.talk is cheap.

[lapislzi]

7. Stuff storage

I told my daughter that boyfriend and family could store their belongings in our attic so they don't a) lose all their stuff or b) have to pay for a storage unit. Haven't heard back yet. If they're headed south, there's not much I can do.

That's a tangible thing that almost any homeowner could offer.

[laughingliberal]

9. K & R nt

[Jeffersons Ghost]

12. K&R

[w8liftinglady]

21. I live in an area very similar to yours.it kills me.

Having been off work for a year,I can barely get by,but still encourage my sons to look...look at the poor trying to get by.help them any way you can.For crying out loud,give the homeless guy a buck.help them pick up crap at the homeless shelter.Do something,kids.We're all in this together.

[FredMertz]

24. A heart-breaking story

And one that probably happens daily. Am I being too simplistic when I say that what we really need in this country is a maximum wage? How can any human being who has millions(or billions) sleep at night when they know this is going on?

[closeupready]

25. Oh, that's easy - gated communities; conservative media outlets worshipping the wealthy;

arguments that lower taxes helps everyone, and higher taxes hurts everyone. :crazy:

Also, many have no conscience and simply don't care. They just get in their car and drive around in the suburbs and on highways where they don't need to be exposed to homeless people. Easy schmeasy.

[KamaAina]

30. Two words: Much Ambien.

Seriesly. Most of the Bushies took it. :boring:

[Hannah Bell]

26. knr

[TBF]

28. Talking about it is a start - the moment they silence us is when they've won.

I can imagine how heart broken your daughter is. Maybe locate the nearest food bank or soup kitchen (our church has one) and see if you can volunteer together. She's going to feel better if she's doing something and maybe the boyfriend will write when he's more settled somewhere. This is happening everywhere & we've got to keep talking about it. Thanks for your OP.

[bobbolink]

33. Talking, yes.... helping, yes..... BUT also educating about the true facts, and

taking action to create HOUSING, rather than continue with charity which hasn't worked for 30 years.

[TBF]

36. Really good point bobbolink -

about the "charity". The problem with the charity is that people throw a few bucks here & there to help the "unfortunate", and then they feel absolved and go on living their capitalist lives.

And it's not like many of us are very "fortunate" when it comes down to it. The best things in life may be free, but that shouldn't stop us from noticing the gross inequalities of just a few at the top holding most of the wealth.

If we had a system that was equitable we wouldn't need to rely on charity.

[mntleo2]

39. Worse charity is expensive and does little

Most activists do not want you to know how screwed up charity giving and activities really are because the public's knowledge about how meager the "services" they provide compared to the millions they get, might close them down and then there is nothing for anyone. It is heartbreaking to know a charity not only provides huge tax breaks for rich "donation" contributers, they also get millions in government funding and then spend most of it on themselves, not their clients.

Nobody in the government is watching the store and few know the truth because NOBODY IS LOOKING. The only reason we know about WI below is because a group of very savvy poor women are crunching the numbers, nobody else is doing it there or in any other state. So unless some person or organization calls attention to it, grant giving will go unnoticed and continue on for years.

It is documented in WI but true for most other states that these charities, who get millions and give millions in tax breaks for the rich, spend on the average of $46-57,000 per client when the "services" they give are at the most perhaps a subsidy to a family for something like childcare, a #50.00 rent voucher (woo hoo that oughtta make the landlord not evict you), or energy assistance where the government contracts with them to distribute government funded energy assistance.

Worse some of these "non-profits" have been convicted by their own legislators for fraud and are STILL contracted with the government for the distribution of funds and the taking of their grants in addition to the millions of tax deductable donations. Oh. And let's not forget all those stores these "non-profits" run where they won't pay the store worker a livable wage and reap more millions as well ~ all never paying a single penny in taxes.

Where does this money go after it hits the non-profit? Into the pockets of upper management, wages for upper class middle management and social workers, those upper and middle class entitles who are middle management types. The rich give their millions and then use them for tax breaks and the poor do not get adequate services ~ or even a job with a livable wage. I am sorry but spending the average of even the lowest estimate of $46,000 on ONE client while being punitive and demeaning and reaping millions, is *not* my idea of doing anything for anyone.

Cat in Seattle

[closeupready]

43. Precisely why I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS check an NGO's financial statements.

How much do their executives make, and what proportion is that of annual revenue? How much of revenue is spent directly on program activities, and how much on fundraising parties and overhead? If less than 80% is spent on activities, I keep my wallet CLOSED.

[mudplanet]

57. I'm sure that that is true of a lot of non-profit organizations, but I know

of a number that actually do great work. Locally the homeless shelter that is run by a consortium of the Catholic parishes runs three apartment complexes and a homeless shelter and as a social worker I know that no one, including the director, is making anything but a very modest living.

Another local social service agency for which I used to work runs two residences for the mentally ill, a medical and psychiatric clinic, and provides assistance to dozens of people and families every year in finding and keeping section 8 housing. I have problems with how they are run, but no one in the organization is making anything more than a modest living. Including the directors.

So, if you want to donate to a charity and you're concerned about fraud and inefficiency, donate locally. Go to a couple of progressive churches and talk to a couple of priests in poor neighborhoods. They'll be able to give you an idea where your money is likely to do the most good.

Even better, become a patron of a Catholic Worker house. ALL of your money will be spent on the needy.

http://www.catholicworker.org/

Cat in Seattle, go visit one of these Catholic Worker houses.

Bethlehem Farm Catholic Worker
508 Coal Creek Rd
Chehalis WA 98532
Phone: [phone]


Bread & Roses Catholic Worker
Bread & Roses Catholic Worker
Olympia WA 98501
Phone: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]



Pacem in Terris
The Family Kitchen
331 17th Ave E
Seattle WA 98112
Phone: [phone]


Tacoma Catholic Worker
Guadalupe House of Hospitality
1417 S G St
Tacoma WA 98405
Phone: [phone] and 253-627-4347
Email: [e-mail]

[mntleo2]

61. Yeah I work with them, perhaps I should have added ...

...LARGE non-profits.

While Bread and Roses as well as others in my area are run by the richest church in the world, they are good people. The best "experimental" housing they have is some housing that, unlike most of the others, did not have rules around whether or not someone was "clean and sober". Not only did they find that once a resident got stable housing, VOIILA, the housing had the highest rehab rate in the city.

Also, below this building were several bars where people came from out of the area to patronize them. There were more fights, damage, and plain police actions than ANYTHING the building with users right above that street had, which was virtually none. Furthermore the building is the cleanest and most attractive in the area with cheerful window boxes the residents participated in making sure their building we well maintained, AND they are considered a "quiet" building.

Of course none of the other housing agencies has taken any lessons from this "experiment" that has worked now for over 15 years, with moral nannies who hate the poor, whether the general public or the so-called agencies who actually benefit more if they operate as tax havens and employment agencies for the entitled.

No who I am talking about are large national nons that are not doing enough work, are punitive and, sorry, $47-56,000 per client is disgusting. BTW the numbers for these include The Salvation Army, Goodwill and YWCA ~ all national agencies. Small local grassroots non-profits and a few others are not so greedy, it is true.

Below are links where there are the courageous mothers who have done some numbers and btw they are the only ones, besides "wonk wannabes" like me. NO government agencies, nor the press and others are watching this giveaway where nons are raking in the dough and giving little back. More need to take the time to gather such data in their own communities and I guarantee you, they will be shocked.

http://www.welfarewarriors.org/MWV_Archive/s01/s01--bwe--bus_tour.htm
http://www.welfarewarriors.org/MWV_Archive/sp09/sp09_milw.htm

Cat in Seattle

[mudplanet]

64. Cat., I couldn't agree more with your stance on the "moral nannies" issue.

As I said, I have issues with some of the policies at social service agencies that I like, and one of them is their stance that people have to be 100% sober (drugs or alcohol) in order to receive certain types of services, housing being the primary one.

So a homeless person would come to me and say, I want to quit and I need help. But the agency guidelines stated that (s)he had to have six months documented sobriety to be eligible for housing assistance.

I agree about Salvation Army and Goodwill. In this town Goodwill doesn't seem to do anything outside of provide a half dozen people minimum wage no-benefit jobs. I think it's a scam. At least Salvation Army consistently provides two meals a day to anyone that shows up. But it's a strange place - Sometimes the vibe there is so negative I can't wait to leave. And, though they've recently changed their motto to Doing The Most Good, their traditional motto is still on all the buildings: Blood and Fire. You have to be aware when you're asking them for help that they view your client as a "sinner" whose problems are created by their failure to follow the "word of god." Reminds me of fake abortion clinics that try to guilt young women out of the procedure. Within the social services profession we have lists of "resources" for people that need help and the Salvation Army lists "help with utilities and rent for families." But I have yet (in five years) to meet anyone who successfully got anything out of them. One colleague took a single mother who was going to be evicted to them for rent assistance. They had to jump through a number of hoops and wait something like five weeks to get a check - and it bounced! With some of these agencies it becomes obvious after awhile that you'd be better off making a sign asking for what you need and standing at an intersection with the client begging. Seriously. Our you can do what I do: just take them out and get what they need and pay for it yourself.

We do have a Catholic church that serves an incredible 2400 calorie meal five days a week. I used to take clients there and had to quit because I gained too much weight.

Thanks for the link.

[Starry Messenger]

41. k & r

[donco6]

42. HVAC - the first thing to be cut in budgets is routine maintenance.

That's why those guys get laid off all the time. The rooftops are still running, so they figure they can just go a year or two without any maintenance. Of course, then they find the compressors shot, motors ruined, piping full of holes, roof leaks at penetrations . . . and golly! It's a whole lot more expensive!

I see the same thing here - really. It's not unique to upstate NY, that's for sure. Hope they show up soon someplace relatively safe.

[lapislzi]

47. Good point. I always say home repairs like that are "invisible."

They're not "pretty" like a new carpet or paint job. It's just stuff you have to quietly, constantly pay for.

[donco6]

48. Yes. And the powers that be usually have no clue.

They really think that when you flip a switch, things just "work". Well, that's a testament to the HVAC guys of the world.

[lapislzi]

52. Giving respect to the HVAC guys and gals

For keeping us warm in the winter and cool in the summer!

:yourock:

[lapislzi]

46. Update: family is local

Boy is hanging out at my house today. Without embarrassing him too much, I'll try to get some details that can point me in the direction of how best to help the family. And I'll make sure he gets three squares and a pile of leftovers. DU daughter is already banging around in the kitchen making a mess of cupcakes (not hooky, just no school today).

[donco6]

49. Good news!

Glad to hear it.

[Anser]

59. Glad to hear that

I've been silently following your thread (while admiring your caring)

This news gives hope for a, at least relatively, happy ending. :)

[mntleo2]

62. Maybe contact Wishadoo for them?

DUers have done some amazing work for people in need around this wonderful website. http://wishadoo.com

Hope this helps

Love,
Cat

[lapislzi]

65. Thanks, Cat

Will check that out. I hope between this, that, and the next, we can pull this family back from the brink. I've told DU daughter to have them bring their laundry over whenever they need to and to give them access to our attic to store stuff.

[adigal]

50. I live much further upstate than you do

near Saratoga Springs. The haves have SO much, both here, and in your area, such as Westchester. The have nots have nothing, and they vote Republican. I want to bang my head against the wall at their gullibility. And they are vociferous in their defense of the republicans. Fox News, et al, have ruined their thinking.