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Point/Counterpoint: Did capitalism save the Chilean miners?

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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 08:27 PM
Original message
Point/Counterpoint: Did capitalism save the Chilean miners?
Edited on Sat Oct-23-10 08:54 PM by maryf
Below are two articles with very different viewpoints on whether capitalism helped save the miners, the first from the Wall Street Journal, guess which they contend?

I have to say, and reiterate below, that the main point of the wsj article appears to be that innovation saved the miners, the author seems to believe that innovation is motivated purely and solely by profit; I disagree, and on edit have to say that the second article rings far truer to me, but post both articles (see links for entirety) for your consideration:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527487036...

Capitalism Saved the Miners
The profit = innovation dynamic was everywhere at the mine rescue site.

It needs to be said. The rescue of the Chilean miners is a smashing victory for free-market capitalism.
Amid the boundless human joy of the miners' liberation, it may seem churlish to make such a claim. It is churlish. These are churlish times, and the stakes are high.

<snip>

This profit = innovation dynamic was everywhere at that Chilean mine. The high-strength cable winding around the big wheel atop that simple rig is from Germany. Japan supplied the super-flexible, fiber-optic communications cable that linked the miners to the world above.

<snip>
That's right. In an open economy, you will never know what is out there on the leading developmental edge of this or that industry. But the reality behind the miracles is the same: Someone innovates something useful, makes money from it, and re-innovates, or someone else trumps their innovation. Most of the time, no one notices. All it does is create jobs, wealth and well-being. But without this system running in the background, without the year-over-year progress embedded in these capitalist innovations, those trapped miners would be dead.

Some will recoil at these triumphalist claims for free-market capitalism. Why make them now?

<snip>
The miners' rescue is a thrilling moment for Chile, an imprimatur on its rising status. But I'm thinking of that 74-person outfit in Berlin, Pa., whose high-tech drill bit opened the earth to free them. You know there are tens of thousands of stories like this in the U.S., as big as Google and small as Center Rock. I'm glad one of them helped save the Chileans. What's needed now is a new American economic model that lets our innovators rescue the rest of us.
ah the last sentence I can concur, but I don't think innovation has to be motivated or inspired by profit. mf

Here's the counter point...
Au contraire below...

http://www.fair.org/blog/2010/10/18/capitalism-sav.../

'Capitalism Saved the Miners'? Part Two
10/18/2010
by Steve Rendall
The emerging hero of the Chilean miners' story--in Latin America and elsewhere, if not in the U.S.--is Luis Urzúa, a topographer who took a job at the San José mines as a shift foreman while awaiting the start of new a job in his field. NASA officials working on the rescue called Urzúa "a natural leader," but his most important accomplishment was getting the 33 miners through the first 17 days of their crisis, when all they had was enough food for two days, dirty water and no idea if a rescue effort was even underway.

Besides implementing food rationing and a 24-hour watch to listen for rescuers, Urzúa is credited with unifying the men and mediating conflicts in the desperate situation. As a topographer, Urzúa also had technical expertise useful to the rescue team. He was the last miner to be brought up because of his value to the effort.

Urzúa, whose father was a Communist leader murdered by the Pinochet regime, and whose stepfather, a Socialist mining union leader, was in turn killed by anti-left government violence, explained his leadership approach to London's Guardian:
Speaking from a hospital bed at the San José mine, shift foreman Luis Urzúa--the man who kept the Chilean miners alive for two months--said his secret for keeping the men bonded and focused on survival was majority decision-making.

"You just have to speak the truth and believe in democracy," said Urzúa, his eyes hidden behind black glasses.... "Everything was voted on.... We were 33 men, so 16 plus one was a majority." So the hero of our story, a mine foreman, says he discarded corporate, top-down decision-making in favor of workplace democracy.


The last few paragraphs point to how Hennigers article fails to mention that capitalism could be blamed for the accident by extension, and how Urzua's story helped prove that capitalism was far from being the salvation...read at the link!
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Politics or economic systems didn't save them - people did and their ingenuity and drive
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Basically what the second article
says, that people working together did it...though they mention democracy...(of by and for the people)
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Can you see how ingenuity
wasn't based on profit? Rather more like the old saw that "necessity is the mother of invention"?
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. I thought it was strange that Capitalism felt it needed to give itself props for this.
A little defensive post-Pinochet are they?
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. getting nervous perhaps...
really do wonder how Henninger (wsj) can base his premise on innovation as necessarily a capitalistic trait? Do improvements to technology or human life have to be connected to profit (of course this is rhetorical) but I think of the Soviet Union's space program...
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. They seem to think profit is some kind of spiritual motivation.
It sounds Calvinist. The Soviet space program is the ultimate proof that humans will achieve wonders without the modern drive for profit. I hope they are getting nervous. :D
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. If the events in France are a harbinger of things to come...
they'd better be nervous...the profit and competition motives do seem to be the spin that is wearing out (and may well have sprung forth from the Calvinist and similar traditions)...human needs and rights seem to becoming the major motivation for many these days...and certainly the motivation for the minors; their needs were dire...(and we'd be remiss not to grant technology its due credit here, but I bet the inventor of the drill worked for a corporation and was paid his salary and no share of the profit)
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I wonder if there is going to be a backlash?
These events in France, etc. seem to have short-sheeted the capitalists. I expected a much bigger counter-revolutionary propaganda barrage. Maybe I'm not looking properly.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. I think you are probably right...
Keep an eye on the WSJ for more of the same...
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Since they reference both Germany and Japan, which have socialist economic policies,
they are being self contradictory. Isn't that interesting?
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. Yes it is. nt
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. The Soviets are only proof that slaves will achieve wonders to stop you from whipping them
Remind me again who actually made it to the moon.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. Oh, read your history...
I think you are confused regarding the Soviet space program. The Soviet/Russian space station Mir, and its ancestors are pretty amazing proof of a successful program, and at least on par with our Apollo successes (how many decades ago now?) and the space shuttles...
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. What is par for the course?
Americans landed people on the moon. Not landing on the moon isn't on par with American successes.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Other countries have landed on the moon
being first is important, but the space station Mir has not been duplicated...and is a very important achievement...
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Who else landed people on the moon?
Have you ever heard of ISS?
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gmoney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Nobody else has landed people, other countries have landed probes.
Edited on Mon Oct-25-10 04:51 PM by gmoney
Or drones as we like to call them now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon#Exploration
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Yup. It reeks of needyness. Like no emotional event is allowed to take
Edited on Sat Oct-23-10 10:52 PM by applegrove
place unless it can be used by neocons as propaganda to promote 'pure capitalism'. Reminds me of the Rove/Cheney WH.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. It was definitely Capitalism that got them trapped in the first place. nt
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
10. Capitalism buried the miners. nt
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. FFS! Why didn't the wsj just say 'But, but, Pinochet!'
:cry:

What a fucking joke of an article. Waah, waah, but but capitalism :cry:

I do believe NASA is one of them there SOCIALIZT things. Not to mention the most significant factor in the rescues - mass communication, like the web, as in thanks to DARPA, as in ANOTHER socialisty thing.

LOL that wsj article reads like a giant product-placement ad.


By the way, I couldn't get the link to work. Had to Google it.
But it could just be my pc





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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. The last lines in the second article say it all...
Wish I had editted to include these (and post in case others couldn't get the links to work):

So the hero of our story, a mine foreman, says he discarded corporate, top-down decision-making in favor of workplace democracy.

As we pointed out earlier, Daniel Henninger's Wall Street Journal column, "Capitalism Saved Miners," forgot to mention that a reckless capitalist company put the miners in their predicament in the first place, and that government played a far larger role in their rescue than did capitalism.

Urzúa's story further detracts from Henninger's thesis, for unless capitalism and its anti-democratic decision-making processes have radically changed in the last two months, Henninger's hallowed system played no role in getting the miners through the toughest part of their ordeal.


The links have been glitchy of late, I've noticed, I've googled other posts here at DU myself...

Oh and thanks! :)
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. Chile mining engineer who directed rescue describes how he did it
SAN JOSE MINE, Chile — Three days after 33 men were sealed deep within a gold mine, Andre Sougarret was summoned by Chile's president.

The Chilean leader got right to the point: The square-jawed, straight-talking engineer would be in charge of digging them out.

At first Sougarret worried — no one knew if the miners were alive, and the pressure was on to reach them. And he knew he would be blamed if the men were found dead "because we didn't reach them or the work was too slow."

But eventually, contact was made, the work was on, and the miners below were calling him "boss."

The mission was unprecedented. No one had ever drilled so far to reach trapped miners. No one knew where to find them.

From the first confusing days to this week's glorious finale, the 46-year-old Sougarret was the man with the answers.

And at the end, the last miner to reach the surface, shift foreman Luis Urzua, would tell him: "People like you are worth a lot of money in Chile."
.
.
.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jd6WHk2cccRQDrKnJMOKn4OpA8-A?docId=4847033
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Also said
"Urzua, the shift foreman, had this to say as he hugged the man who saved the 33: "You always gave us the straight talk, always speaking the truth."

another great article, thanks!! :)
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
14. a core value of capitalism is sellers saying, "no, i won't help you at that price"
that has NO PLACE when lives are on the line.

nevermind that it's FAR more obvious that capitalism had a HUGE role in creating the problem in the first place, and it's not remotely clear that capitalism had much of a role in the rescue. capitalism OUGHT NOT to play a big role in such situations. capitalism fundamentally works by deciding not to help people who can't pay enough, and that's just not a value compatible with a civilized society.

capitalism works fine when you're talking about the distribution of goods and services that are optional or are at least not critical for survival. but you simply can't have a civilized society where people who can't afford to pay for their survival are left to perish.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. Wow
"you simply can't have a civilized society where people who can't afford to pay for their survival are left to perish."
beautiful" Right on line! thanks!
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
15. nobody rescued those guys to make a profit, so far as i know. so no, capitalism had nothing to do
with it.

that the media are framing it that way seems to me more than goofy.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Capitalists
Edited on Sun Oct-24-10 08:50 AM by maryf
are grasping at straws for good PR, the reactions to global actions against capitalism have them on the defensive...I'm glad Rendall posted a counter to the "goofy" article, Here's the last couple paragraphs from his article at Fair in case any here missed them:

So the hero of our story, a mine foreman, says he discarded corporate, top-down decision-making in favor of workplace democracy.

As we pointed out earlier, Daniel Henninger's Wall Street Journal column, "Capitalism Saved Miners," forgot to mention that a reckless capitalist company put the miners in their predicament in the first place, and that government played a far larger role in their rescue than did capitalism.

Urzúa's story further detracts from Henninger's thesis, for unless capitalism and its anti-democratic decision-making processes have radically changed in the last two months, Henninger's hallowed system played no role in getting the miners through the toughest part of their ordeal.

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
17. Capitalism wouldn't have had to save them if it hadn't buried in the name of profit. nt
Edited on Sun Oct-24-10 08:41 AM by TBF
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Spinning the truth...
to save their "good" name!
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
18. Thanks for that!
I may find myself defending the second point, so it's helpful finding both laid out clearly.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I am definitely with you
In defending the second point, but tried to appear impartial! ;) Glad you find it useful...
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
26. Lawmaker: mine collapse warning ignored
SANTIAGO, Chile – A Chilean legislative commission is investigating reports that mining operators ignored danger warnings from a man who was later among 33 later trapped when a mine collapsed.

Deputy Carlos Vilches, a commission member, said Tuesday that miner Juan Illanes has alleged that operators refused his request to leave the mine three hours before it collapsed on Aug. 5. Illanes reportedly had heard loud sounds that indicated a collapse could be brewing.
.
.
.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/lt_chile_mine_collapse
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Thanks!
further evidence! :fistbump:
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-24-10 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
31. VIVA CHILE!
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
35. Too late to reoommend. n/t
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
36. kick

So what's this jive about communism being the opposite of democracy?
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-25-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Just that
jive bullshit...of by and for the PEOPLE? "from each according to his ability", sounds like of and by the people, "to each according to his need," sounds like for the people....sounds pretty similar to me...
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