What is our basis for opposing female genital mutilation?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

It is a cultural tradition dear to many people. And our culture is no picnic... who are we to judge another culture?

The problem here is that we are talking about culture... traditions... groups of people.

That is not what it is about.

Culture, nation, religion, tradition, politics... these are either technologies for making things better for individuals or they are pathological effects of human nature in groups.

The individual must be the basic unit of politics and of ethics.

When it comes down to cutting off a little girl's clitoris it is not about the pride of a nation or respect for a culture.

It is about a little girl and a knife.

And that is the basis upon which we object, and rightly so.

[Posteritatis]

1. There are a very few 'cultural practices' I have no problem seeing stamped out. That's one.

Who am I to judge? I'm someone who doesn't advocate that kind of shit to be done to children. If it's arrogant for me to think that makes me better than those who do, or those who would defend it, then I wear the label proudly.

(I shudder to think that there probably are plenty of people around here who do sincerely defend that sort of thing.)

[Touchdown]

25. A society should be measured by how it treats the weakest among them.

:hi:

[Posteritatis]

27. Yep. (nt)

[seabeyond]

2. does any culture hack the penis with intent making sure no pleasure or is painful to not enjoy

sex?

i am not really getting the intent of the post. why dont we embrace making sure women do not enjoy, are pained in having sex?

[demosincebirth]

9. I think...

its so women won't "stray."

:sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

14. i am pretty sure it is a bunch of cowardly, wimpy men afraid a women may step out too.... nt

[demosincebirth]

19. I agree with ya.

[ProudDad]

36. Why yes, that's what circumcision is all about (n/t)

[seabeyond]

37. why, no, it is not.... i have been with men who had circumcision and i assure you

they enjoyed.

the purpose of circumcision is not to enusre the male feels pain, or no stimulation and pleasure.

[ProudDad]

39. Circumcision CUTS down the pleasure

by excising the majority of the nerve endings that signal pleasure to the brain...

That IS EXACTLY why various (fucked up) religions practice it!

I wish I had had the choice but because of fucked up Catholicism, I DIDN'T GET THE OPTION! I was surgically deformed and altered as an infant in order to decrease my potential for sexual pleasure.

Please don't engage in a "my pain is worse than yours" divisive argument. I'm on your side about the horror of FGM, but was merely replying that yes, males are subjected to surgical mutilation too!

[seabeyond]

42. not what i hear from the men i have been with. and the purpose of it is NOT to eliminate pleasure

or cause pain with sex so the man won't fool around on the woman.

i dont know why you are arguing. this is not something even in question. not an opinion.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudDad]

45. And how many of those men

were circumcised as an adult and therefore have a valid opinion about it?

The scientific evidence is uniform that removing the nerve filled foreskin removes a considerable percentage of sensations from the organ thereby cutting the potential for pleasure.

[uppityperson]

50. "he majority of the nerve endings" has changed to "a considerable percentage"

fail.

[TonyMontana]

138. Do you have a penis?

What in the world do you know about it? Seriously.

[uppityperson]

147. Is having a penis a requirement for noticing goal post changing?

Hold on to yours a minute and I'll go grab me one also.




OK, I'm back. Yes, I have a penis, thank you honey. "

The majority of the nerve endings" has changed to "a considerable percentage". Fail.

[TonyMontana]

135. Don't bother

What is it with women who think they can have an opinion on what constitutes sexual pleasure from a man's penis?

It's like me saying PMS is no big deal.

[uppityperson]

148. I guess all those guys who have been satisfied sexually in my past don't count

All those hundreds of dudes saying "wow, that was something where's my cigarette" don't count. Well, dang me for doing all that research for nothing.

It's rather like you saying your women friends, if any, told you how they experience PMS.

[uppityperson]

48. aw, common seabeyond.

Cutting off the head of the penis is what circumcision is all about. Didn't you know that? Any men we've ever been around with only the foreskin removed were anomalies.

[seabeyond]

52. well, then, lucky me. and lucky partner, too. nt

[uppityperson]

54. Indeed. Me too. We got the odd circumcised men who still have some sexual pleasure.

Unlike women who get fgm.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

http://www.swfinternational.org/service.html

These discussions really upset me.

[seabeyond]

56. to the point of being truly sick to compare the male circumcision to female mutilation

i have no opinion on the male circumcision. i dont know. i leave it to the men to decide. but i do know that what my husband feels is way above and beyond what any of these women will experience.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

105. i will call my hubby a victim of genital mutilation and his inability to enjoy sex

and see how well he takes that. i will get back to you on it.

[seabeyond]

122. *sigh* i wont even tell you what hubby said, but bottom line it to, he is not on the same page as

you

he is quite happy with his dick, his words.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scout]

109. take it up with your daddy if you have a problem what he did to you.

once again, a thread that can't talk about women, without the whiny boys coming in and stamping their feet for attention....

:puke:

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

116. Hahahahahahahahahaha

Good one, for a moment I almost took you seriously.

[EOTE]

118. What pain is there to recognize?

Any pain you experienced due to circumcision you've surely forgotten about decades ago. It's pretty sick comparing circumcision to FGM, they're in completely different ballparks. I'm part of the large majority of men who just doesn't give a damn that they were circumcized. In fact, I'm quite glad I got it done before I had the ability to form memories of it. Try asking a victim of FGM if she is glad that she was inflicted with it. Once the red marks wear off on your face, you'll probably want to rethink the question.

[TheWraith]

84. Actually, circumcision was commonly used in the US to prevent masturbation.

By tightly cropping the skin of the penis, it would be made very difficult for a boy to engage in masturbation by stroking the skin back and forth. This was, obviously, back when masturbation was considered an evil immoral thing. That's probably what they're referring to.

[ieoeja]

120. Well, then, it failed.

I've certainly never had any difficulties masturbating.

[laundry_queen]

145. How would those men

Have any basis for comparison? Seriously??

[uppityperson]

47. The "majority of nerve endings" are on a man's foreskin, not his glans? Huh

Good thing they circumcised so many men. Otherwise it wouldn't ever even get to the "bam" part of wham bam thank you ma'am.

Yes, men are subject to surgical mutilation also but no, they don't cut off "the majority of nerve endings that signal pleasure to the brain". Unless they chop off the entire penis, or at least partway down the shaft past the glans.

[Touchdown]

64. Ahem...

Not all nerves down there are orgasm drivers. What's on the glans is. The foreskin's nerves allow you to enjoy the journey to there more. It's not a race to finish with intact men.

[uppityperson]

68. are you saying

men with an intact foreskin have more nerve endings so because they feel more they last longer?

I've heard the opposite, that having the glans exposed gives it more daily friction so men last longer.

"not a race to the finish" means what?

[Touchdown]

72. An intact man doesn't do friction. He glides.

It's about movement, not friction. You are still thinking those nerves on the foreskin drive to orgasm. They don't. They are sensitive, but they are not orgasm drivers. Like the nerves on you back, ears, nipples, scrotum, etc. None of those bring about orgasm, but are highly erogenous anyway. The nerves on the glans and on the prostate deep inside do.

"race to the finish" just means that statistically, men who are circumcised suffer from premature ejaculation 3 times as much as intact men. With only the driver nerves left, orgasm is usually the goal and the good feeling a circumcised penis has is only the orgasm driver nerves, rather than the end of the roller coaster with all the other fun things.

This is a thread about FGM though. We shouldn't be hijacking it with a male circ debate. I'll lay off now.:hi:

[uppityperson]

113. I was meaning everyday friction against clothing. Skin does rub clothing, clothing rubs skin

I think we'll good.

[TonyMontana]

134. I just love all the women in this thread commenting about something they know nothing about

What in the world do YOU know about having a penis?

[uppityperson]

142. I've come into contact with one or 2 in my life. Thank you for asking.

I appreciate the concern but no, have no desire to see yours.

[Touchdown]

150. self delete

Nevermind.

[TonyMontana]

133. I don't think you've been with any men

Because circumcision does, indeed, reduce pleasure.

[seabeyond]

139. you never disappoint and are so consistent in stupid. nt

[uppityperson]

143. How do you know? Were you circ'd as an adult after being sexually active?

[Touchdown]

40. Laugh, but that's how it got started in the early 1900s in Britain and America..

It's been one silly justification and a cure for the disease of the year, one after another ever since.

[seabeyond]

43. oh, bull. if the intent was to eliminate pleasure, cause pain with sex, they would have done

a lot more than what they did. that is simply... bull.

and i dont see any of this as anything to "laugh" about

[ProudDad]

46. As Touchdown said, the intent in hypocritical, repressed USAmerika

was to keep the little nippers from beating off by cutting down in the pleasure of the act by mutilating their little Johnsons by chopping off the majority of nerve endings from their little willies...

Face it, women aren't alone in being exploited and mutilated...

[seabeyond]

53. it is really to the point of gross comparing your woes to what these girls experience

beyond pathetic. let me now commence feeling oh so sorry. for. you.

[ProudDad]

102. I never compared my woes to what those girls experience...

Please cut the bullshit!

As someone who doesn't have personal knowledge of genital mutilation, you can only imagine how it feels.

You pretend to display sensitivity to the plight of those distant "girls" in other countries...

And yet, you are displaying an immense amount of insensitivity toward actual human beings on this board who do know how it feels to have been mutilated.

SHAME ON YOU!

[seabeyond]

106. having two sons, hubby, two brothers, a father and other men in my life

i have yet to hear one male express to me the "pain" they feel when having sex or otherwise.

[Touchdown]

130. So it doesn't exist then.

All men in the world are just like the men you know.:eyes:

[seabeyond]

132. every. single. man and boy that i know. best i can do. saying does it exist...? i dont know

i have not heard one man on du (or anywhere else) say he has pain when having sex due to a circumcision and it is often enough we talk about male circumcision and a guys penis, and him "hitting it" and never heard.

that is as far as i am willing to go

[uppityperson]

55. "the majority of nerve endings" of the penis are in the foreskin?

And this makes FGM ok because, after all, "you" were mutilated? Or do you mean FGM isn't so bad.

[Touchdown]

62. I don't think he's saying that at all.

He's saying that it's a bit hypocritical for Americans to be outraged over FGM, when we think it's no big deal to hack apart baby boys.

But if that comparison is gross, maybe I can get the point differently...

The girl who was FGMed may just die in a war in Sudan because we don't do intervention in Africa... American Hypocrisy.
The girl may be bombed with her legs torn off by an american bunker buster.
The girl may starve to death because the US doesn't do enough to quell violent dictators in Africa who steal all the aid food.
The girl may be sold into slavery in some diamond mine, where an American lady will buy a necklace with blood diamonds on it... right after she lectures her pregnant daughter on the advantages of circumcising her male fetus.

FGM is a disgusting practice, as are all of those. I want it ended as much as you. I'm sorry this got sidetracked and I helped it. I am not somebody who sees that every cultural practice must be respected, which was the point of this thread.

[uppityperson]

70. I am opposed to unnecessary circumcisions. However, I also see a difference

between male and female circumcisions. It depends on what is done and how.

I agree that not every cultural practice must be respected. I can see how some may have a problem with that, but no, they don't all deserve respect.

For example: Is the cultural practice of raping females after conquesting an area deserving of respect? I. Don't. Think. So.

[Touchdown]

74. No definitely not.

Rape in conquest is actually biblical, with the genocide of Jericho (And I will not apologize for saying genocide). The women were raped, and the men slaughtered. Amazing how we just grow more efficient with our brutality.

[joshcryer]

85. Circumcision has been around a very very very long time, it likely started as a hygenic practice.

In modern times in the western world where one has access to simple hygine, it's not so much an issue.

[Touchdown]

87. There is a book...

The History of Circumcision by David Gollaher, which gives an exhaustive history of the practice.

It's in e-pub and Kindle formats too.:hi:

[joshcryer]

89. Wasn't David Gollaher one of those anti-sirc people who started comparing to male circ. to FGM?

I seem to recall Gollaher using biblical interpretation as historical fact though, but I can't remember where I got that impression. I have not read the book (and am not particularly interested in the subject).

[Touchdown]

94. I don't know.

But I do know that he says he had no drive to prove anything either way in chapter one. By the end of the book though, he was pretty much against the practice/ritual. He used biblical accounts for the sanctifying justification, but the early hebrew practice is described in historical, not biblical terms.

He does describe the 4 degrees/kinds of FGM, which is what most people do not know. It is generally assumed to be only one kind, total removal of the clitoris and sewing up of the vaginal opening. Truly brutal, but it is the rarest of them... which in my opinion they all are, including "nicking".

For somebody not interested in the subject, you seem to know quite a bit about this author.:shrug:

[joshcryer]

97. Read this:

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/world.php

Truly brutal, but it is the rarest of them... which in my opinion they all are, including "nicking". :(

It's not as rare as you make it out to be.

In any event, this is one of the top 4 subjects that the internet has, period.

It's either "global warming" or "right vs left (capitalism vs socialism usually)" or "evolution" or "circumcision."

These are the three guaranteed discussions that will garner thousands of responses on *general* internet forums.

[yurbud]

63. ours hacks it

[seabeyond]

78. it doesnt stop pleasure, feel good and it doesnt cause pain while having sex. nt

[Touchdown]

86. Usually.

Many circ'd men in their 40s get a diminished sensitivity.

[yurbud]

99. it's not as bad, but it doesn't make it right either. Some research indicates it leads

to premature ejaculation, and because of the lack of slack in the skin, more lubrication, natural or artificial, is needed to keep things going (which could be painful if you don't have either).

[seabeyond]

107. every man and boy i have known has been circumcised. i have not heard of this issue

until du. i have heard though about all the male prowess and awesomness of his penis from about every male i know. including my 13 yr old son this weekend chanting in his bedroom,... my master is my penis, that i am....

after about the fifth time i heard it i asked what he was saying.... and the embarassment. not really sure where he was coming form. but thinking he is pretty damn fond of his penis and not in any way feeling it lacks.

i see a lot of "some research" but since all these years i have never heard an agressive argument from males on the loss of foreskin, i will do a little research to see if it is one of those for real things. i leave men and boys to decide on the penis issue thing. being clueless, without

[yurbud]

108. Europeans seem to survive pretty well without circumcision. the problem is, guys don't decide

for themselves, it's done at birth.

I had a friend who didn't get it done at birth and had to do it later for some medical issue, and he said it hurt like hell.

[seabeyond]

110. i dont think there is the argument that men in europe wouldnt survive without,

is there?

i mean really, truly, i dont have a bone in htis fight. my husband likes his penis. my boys seem to also. personally, i which i knew the issue adn maybe convinced them not, cause i personally am not into messing around with it adn hated having to deal with the healing of it when they were babies. they didnt have the problem, i did. i felt so sorry....

but the men, and boys seem to be ok.

i am arguing comparing it as a mutilation, which my males would be highly offended, to the mutilation of females. and stating it reults in the same pain, and lack of stimulus. and the same reason for doing it. that is bullshit

[yurbud]

141. no question FGM is much, much worse, but it takes more maturity to look

at faults in your own culture than it does to look at others.

[laundry_queen]

146. That's the truth. nt

[Hekate]

76. Ah, the predictable subthread. Earliest documentary evidence is ancient Egypt, 4400 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision
Wikipedia's article is interesting in the sheer variety of potential reasons given for the practice.

As far as the grieving, anger, and castration-anxiety attached to the subject here, I have always thought that the historical record of several thousand years'-worth of fertile, active Jewish males ought to testify to the overall lack of harm to sexual life and pleasure.

But hey, what would I know. I just married one.

Hekate

[seabeyond]

79. one would think. nt

[ProudDad]

103. Ah, another female chimes in on a subject

upon which she has no personal knowledge... :puke:

[Scout]

111. i sure hope you've never "chimed in" on an abortion thread ....

god damn, those uppity women daring to discuss on a discussion board.

:sarcasm:

[leftynyc]

119. Considering this is a thread about FGM

don't you feel a bit silly using that argument? Most of this thread is now about male circumcism - thanks to you but a woman commenting on it is pukeworthy?

[seabeyond]

123. ya... this is about women here. actually girls. nt

[leftynyc]

129. It was supposed to be

but like every FGM thread, there is always a man who tries to make the absurd comparison.

[ieoeja]

124. I, and every man I have ever met in real life, have absolutely no problem with it..

You may have personal knowledge, but your conclusions fly in the face of 99+% of men's conclusions.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. It is simply wrong to take sexual pleasure away from

anyone.

It is abhorrent.

When I think that could have happened to me, if I'd been born in the wrong culture, I feel so angry, so upset, that anyone would want to mutilate me in that criminal way.

[w8liftinglady]

5. I agree-it implies the women are worth no more than childbirth.

[seabeyond]

7. such weak males fear a woman might enjoy sex and step out, they mutlilate the women

it goes beyond what you are saying.

[SwampG8r]

49. so all sexual pleasure in women is

clitoral? no it isnt
so FGM is like circumcision in that it is intended as a limitation of sexual pleasure?
yes it is

[uppityperson]

51. All sexual pleasure in female is not clitoral. Neither is male's all foreskinable.

I've never had a circumcised man not have sexual pleasure. It depends on how much was cut and how for a female.

[SwampG8r]

57. im not arguing that it isnt a terrible thing

but it does seem odd that circumcision
done without the consent of the patient
is swept over as "no big deal" and we are supposed to ignore it while being in a high state of agitation over FGM
if we call it MGM can we all agree circumcision is wrong too?

[uppityperson]

58. I agree most times circumcision of males is unneeded and wrong.

However, comparing the 2 types is also wrong. Yes, they are both genital mutilation but comparing them is like comparing piercing my ear with chopping off my tongue. Both of those are body modifications, both involve sensory organs. But comparing them is wrong.

Perhaps you have missed all the "circumcision is wrong" threads on DU?

[SwampG8r]

59. i have read these threads

and they seem to agree with you that snatching up a male child and against his consent or will chopping at his genitals is somehow less traumatic
do you know that the dr has to get an erection from the child to fit the collar?
a circumsized males first sexual experience is during the circumcision
one cannot be more horrible than the other unless you allow your own "cultural bias" to color your view

[uppityperson]

60. I have helped circumcise newborns in times back. Before they used anesthetic. You are wrong.

It was barbarous and I am very glad to see less routine circumcisions and the usage of anesthetics when they do.

However, yes, one CAN be more horrible. It depends on what is done and how. Cutting off a girl's clitoris and her labia and sewing the edges back together so she cannot urinate without pain, so her menstrual blood cannot come out of her body, so if she has intercourse it will be ripped open in excruciating pain, yes, THAT CAN be more horrible than circumcising a male infant.

To compare that with what is now done when circumcising infant boys, to say the outcome is the same, that is horrible.

[SwampG8r]

66. does the little boy

squirming and screaming as he is tied down and prepared feel his trauma is diminished?
if the base of ethics is the individual they are equally abhorrant

[uppityperson]

67. Did I as a child, squirming and screaming as I was tied down for my tonsillectomy feel my trauma

was diminished? "if the base of ethics is the individual they are equally abhorrant".

Circumcision is rarely needed and too often used. Read this post and tell me if one can be more horrible.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9380063&mesg_id=9382142

[SwampG8r]

69. we agree yet we argue

that means i have miscommunicated
why are we arguing the horribleness when we both agree that both are horrible?its not a contest both are wrong.if they are wrong they are wrong.there isnt big wrong and little wrong.there is just wrong.these are both wrong.
now lets agree to agree instead of agreeing to disagree?

[uppityperson]

71. I think it is some try to diminish the horribleness by comparing. We agree they both are wrong

[SwampG8r]

73. i was not trying to diminish

we ok now?

[uppityperson]

112. Yes, we are ok.

[Touchdown]

80. Most don't squirm and scream because they're in shock.

It's true.

[uppityperson]

115. Being held down sends an infant into shock? It's not true.

[seabeyond]

125. shots. the day they are born. and so much more. just the trauma of going thru canal.

huge shock to the newborn

[Touchdown]

131. No. Chopping his dick apart does.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

144. Have you been with an infant getting circumcised? Serious question.

Or are you projecting how it makes you feel now, makes it all retract up into you?

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

151. Speaking of personal attacks."Ignorance based cheap shots are fun, aren't they?"

"I shouldn't have engaged the knife happy Americans in here." shows you haven't read my posts against circumcisions.

[Touchdown]

152. It's not about you.

"Knife happy Americans" was a few others involved in this distraction that I was also regrettably involved in.

This is about you...
Do you know me? Do you know what I'm all about? Do you have my life history and what my experiences are? If not, the proper term for that is "ignorant". It is not a pejorative. Questioning my sanity is a rhetorical cheap shot. If you don't want to be called on it, don't make the accusation in the first place.

And... if you agree that it is wrong, why are you arguing with me, and accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about, or being emotionally unstable and projecting? Are you confusing me with another poster?

For everyone in this thread: I should not have said anything about RIC myself. FGM and RIC are both individually important subjects that deserve their own threads, and it's not right to hijack an FGM thread. I apologize to the majority of posters for failing to do that, and engaging in the distracting arguments.

[uppityperson]

65. "one cannot be more horrible"? Look @ these picts and tell me that again

Both of these circumcisions are healed. I did not want to post bloody or screaming infants/people, just what they are like when healed. Tell me neither of these is more horrible.

Circumcised infant boy


Circumcised female
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-IUWSM_v1_I/R67tXSF-pUI/AAAAAAAAAE0/q6zG_HSZv1Y/s400/FGM+1.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-IUWSM_v1_I/R67tviF-pVI/AAAAAAAAAE8/AMta2dKy8gY/s400/FGM+2.jpg

[Touchdown]

75. To be truly comparable...

You should not show an American boy who was circumcised using sterile equipment in a hospital.

You should show an african 12 year old boy who is on a "passage to manhood" ritual and got his chopped off by a machete, and possibly contracted HIV because the machete is used on multiple boys at once. Many bleed to to death.

Comparing a brutal tribal ritual to an American plastic surgery custom is a little disingenuous.

[joshcryer]

83. Yes, absolutely, the clitoris is largely responsible for female excitement and lubercation.

The whole point of clitoral removal is to deprive women of wetness and pleasure, in its entirety. The main reason being that males in these cultures derive more pleasure from a vagina that is not lubricated. Indeed, in these same cultures women are made to stuff their vagina's with drying herbs in order to increase the pleasure for the male.

There's a reason the guys performing FGM are themselves not circumcised. Circumcised males need some level of lubrication to derive pleasure with a female, uncircumcised males, not so much, and indeed, the foreskin itself acts as lubrication.

[Lorien]

128. Since you're a man you wouldn't know

MOST of it is for most women. FGM causes the woman PAIN during intercourse; I've never known a circumcised man who avoided sexual experiences because being circumcised meant that intercourse would always be intensely painful to him.

[speppin]

4. OMG. Educate yourself and view some pics and hear their stories-

then come back and ask!

Edit.
Think of the word mutilation first.

I am signing off. Have to go.

[Vickers]

8. Did you only read the thread title?

:shrug:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

10. OMG. Educate yourself by reading the OP

then come back and say, "never mind..."

I don't mind that people don't always read OPs. What I mind is that people sometimes form a knee-jerk impression that they are replying to Josef Mengele and still don't read the OP on the off chance that their knee-jerk impression might be wrong.

[etherealtruth]

11. You do understand that the OP is clearly against genital mutilation

.... right....?

[Control-Z]

12. You need to go back and read

the OP. I felt angry when I read the subject line but I gave the post a chance. It's not what you think. Go back and read.

And thanks for being so passionate about the treatment of women.

[awoke_in_2003]

29. I almost knee-jerked. nt

[elleng]

6. "DEAR" to MANY people?

Doubt it.

[MoonRiver]

13. I agree with everything you said.

I also present the analogy of harpooning and bludgeoning to death whales and dolphins, two of the most sentient and gentle creatures on this earth. They do not deserve this fate, any more than little girls being butchered do.

[Odin2005]

15. IMO if you are not opposed to FGM you have no right to call yourself a Liberal.

Liberalism is based on Human Rights, Liberty, and Equality. FGM goes against all 3.

[Codeine]

30. +Infinity

There's no possible way one can call oneself a Progressive and not stand in absolute and utter opposition to this kind of savagery.

[Demoiselle]

16. A Knife? I read somewhere that some people who perform this "operation"..

use a sharpened shell, no anesthesia, and so on, producing permanent incontinence, infection, and the like. But never mind about the details. "Culture" or not, this is a brutal mutilation. And there are many other past or present "cultural" practices thatl are brutally wrong. Slavery comes to mind. So does cutting off a thief's hand, or stoning an "adulteress" to death.

[Codeine]

31. A bit of broken glass bottle is a common tool. :-( nt

[scarletwoman]

17. Well done. Thank you for doing such an excellent job of smashing the "cultural" argument.

As you can tell, I actually read your entire post before responding.

sw

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

18. • • • I apologize to anyone "head-faked" by the headline.

I wasn't trying to be provocative. I often have a headline asking the question the OP seeks to answer.

In this case, there has been a lot of discussion in GD the last 24 hours of cultural relativism, anthropological objectivity, etc..

And I am all for objectivity in the practice of anthropology.

But when it comes to ethics it is not always a clash of civilizations. It is often about individuals.

Rawls Theory of Justice is handy here. What would you consider a just world before being born and having no idea where or who you would be?

Nobody who might be born an untouchable would favor a worldwide caste system. Nobody who might face female genital mutilation would favor the practice existing. Nobody who might be a slave would favor slavery.

These are individual interests generalized... almost no individual wants to be a slave so slavery is wrong, no matter how much slave owners might like it as a group. Slavery is not a balancing test between the interests of the group of slaves versus the group of slave owners. We abhor it because it is something that happens to persons, not abstract groups.

A tradition that nobody would want to be born into is probably unethical.

If one considers the individual the primary ethical unit.

[scarletwoman]

22. "...the individual (as) the primary ethical unit." The heart of the matter.

Again, beautifully, succinctly done.

:applause:
sw

[seabeyond]

23. i perused your op and was so mad i missed

the last sentence. it was so.... balanced, with an unbalanced subject... didnt get to last sentence before i was ready to post. saw it in a re read.

[Jamastiene]

61. I was coming here to flame the hell out of you until I read it.

I'm glad I'm big on reading more than just the headlines. :wow:

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. I don't think an apology is necessary

"A tradition that nobody would want to be born into is probably unethical."

Exactly.

You made a really good point.

[Greyhound]

20. Lack of informed consent. n/t

[Edweird]

21. I am strongly against mutilation of that sort. Piercings and whatnot (elective and voluntary)

are, of course, excluded. As well as preferred :) Attempting to eliminate a woman's enjoyment of sex is mind bogglingly cruel.

[JI7]

24. Culture is no excuse for some acts

[Touchdown]

26. A society should be measured by how it treats the weakest among them.

Young girls are some of the weakest in any society. This is a disgusting practice and I cannot have cultural sensitivity when this is happening.

[stray cat]

28. Kind of like objecting to torture if that's part of your heritage or child molestation or rape

[southmost]

32. I don't understand why adults enforce body modifications on children at all

poor kids, I wouldn't even pierce my child's ears until she was old enough to make that choice herself.

[Cirque du So-What]

33. Institutionalized slavery was part of the 'culture' in the antebellum south

Human sacrifice was integral to ancient Aztec 'culture.' Cannibalism is part & parcel of countless 'cultures' over human history. War profiteering is an accepted part of our 'modern culture.'

I respect the notion that humans are deserving of equal rights, but I don't believe all aspects of all 'cultures' are equally deserving of respect or preservation - any more than I believe in the concept of 'corporate personhood' (another aspect of our 'modern culture' that I want to see fall by the wayside).

Strip away all the BS about a barbaric practice having 'cultural significance' and you'll see, as pointed out in the OP, nothing more than genital mutilation. Are we justified in our condemnation? Damned right, we are! I don't buy into the notion of people throwing rocks & glass houses. If that maxim was followed to the letter, no one would ever be 'pure' enough to criticize anything; it's just an attempt to coerce silence when vociferous condemnation is called for.

[shanti]

34. it's torture

plain and simple. that's enough for me.

[ProudDad]

35. It's another manifestation of the dominator hierarchy

that's going to bury us all unless we stop them soon.

The 10,000 year experiment in dominator hierarchies is an obvious failure, it's time it's ended...

[Igel]

38. Some cultures discount the individual.

The emphasis is on making sure the group survives: If the group survives, then your genes are still passed down because they're replicated in other members of the group. With the group survives your culture and traditions, territorial possession, memories of you and your family. The individual matters but only within the context of a specific group or subgroup.

Western cultures used to be far less individual-centered, in fact, and in the right context reverts to being group-oriented. Many non-Western cultures--and some strains of modern Western thinking--focus on group identity and group rights/privileges/etc. more than on the individual.

I agree with you. Nonetheless, it's worth pointing out that my agreement is itself rooted in my culture. Under different circumstances, Western cultures still, for the most part, revert to an emphasis on group identity. We're primates, and it's been a winning strategy.

I'd also note that not all cultural traits increase survival. Some are holdouts from earlier times; some are skewed interpretations of old traditions.

[applegrove]

41. They deform a womans genitals and sew her up so men don't have to deal with that nasty

'expandableness' of the vagina when they have sex. It is just sick, sick, sick, sick!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

77. There are people here who want to outlaw consenting adult porn and high fat pancakes

yet think FGM deserves 'cultural respect'.

I don't fucking get it. :shrug:

[joshcryer]

81. Are you sure you're generalizing about the same group?

I can see several known anti-porn figures in this thread denouncing FGM greatly (and even doing an admirable job debunking the circumcision deflection that always enters in to the FGM discussion).

[Touchdown]

88. Debunking actually means providing facts,

not smug arguments coming from cultural superiority in a nation that makes exceptionalism a staple of primary education.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. What?

Sorry, If there was meaning buried in that sentence, it was lost under a word salad.

I'm sure you can't possibly mean to infer that FGM isn't a culturally inferior practice. No, you couldn't possibly mean that.

Edit: For the record, I'm opposed to male circumcision on babies as well, but I don't think it's the same thing or the same conversation.

[Touchdown]

95. By degrees of brutality, it is much worse.

Culturally, they are in the stone age, while with boys in America, we have progressed to the Bronze.

I do not accept FGM as any legitimate expression of any culture. I just don't accept the American justification either, and find it ironic in the attitude.

And you don't really need to be so belittling about my writing.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Sorry. I walked into half a point and misinterpreted it.

What can I say. Context is everything. I get what you were saying, now.

[Warren DeMontague]

90. I'm sure there are parts of the Venn Diagram where that is true.

However, I've seen exactly what I said in that post.

[joshcryer]

92. Fair enough, it'd be nice to know who the other anti-porn figures are, I don't recognize them.

No naming names though, of course. Weird.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Not going to name names either. Actually, if there's a "outlaw consenting adult porn" contingent

they've been strangely silent... seems to me there's broad agreement that it should be legal for consenting adults to watch other consenting adults fuck.

Seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I'm not one of those interested in telling other consenting adults how not to get their jollies.

Honestly, it was the pancake thing that surprised me more.

Edit: Sorry, by here I meant DU. Not in this thread per se.

[joshcryer]

98. Ooh OK that makes more sense.

'cause I didn't see any of that in this thread.

[seabeyond]

126. i have yet to see a single person on du suggesting outlawing porn. not. one.

because a person has issue with porn, or see damages it does and discusses, is not saying outlaw. but it is what the pro porn people SAY others are saying. though i have not seen. one. person. suggest outlawing porn

but we digress, right?

[Warren DeMontague]

136. Yes, we digress. I have seen it.

And I've seen people suggest that we should criminalize the eating of cheesecake filled pancakes.

And 5 minutes later argue that FGM deserves "cultural respect".

It's a line of thought I fully admit I don't understand. I'm not saying it's common, but I've seen one or two make the arguments.

[TheWraith]

82. You should know I clicked on this thread with the full intent of verbally beating you senseless.

I'm glad it was a bait and switch.

[uncommon]

104. Human Rights for everyone. Fuck your super special culture.

Honestly. Human beings are capable of higher intelligence than this.

I am sick to fucking death of the rationalization for inhuman "cultural" practices.

[bemildred]

114. I agree.

You have to root your objection in individual and human rights, rights inherent in the person.

[riderinthestorm]

117. A huge K and R!!! nt

[GeorgeGist]

127. Nah ...

it's about the right of sexual pleasure.

[GSLevel9]

137. lol... turned into ANOTHER anteater thread.

[crim son]

140. That is not the basis upon which I, personally object

and I'm frankly surprised that you don't get it.

[fishbulb703]

153. Cultural relativism is a bane on our minds. How it got attached to liberalism I'll never know