Holy cow..student with 4.0 grade avg. won't get diploma due to OGT tests(no child left behind)

[Blue Diadem]

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070522/NEWS04/70522001

Scott High School senior Nia Pettaway has a 4.0 grade-point average and already has been accepted to the University of Toledo, but she won’t get a high school diploma next month or get to walk across the stage at commencement.

Miss Pettaway is among 147 Toledo Public seniors — nearly 10 percent of the district’s 1,486 graduating class — who failed at least one section of the Ohio Graduation Test.

High school students in the state must pass all five sections of the high-stakes exam to get a diploma

snip:
Students have the option to take the OGT once more during the summer — but they would still be precluded from graduation next month. The other option is to obtain a GED high school equivalency diploma.

------------
I really feel bad for these kids. One kid missed out by 2 lousy points.
The Class of 2007 is the first to have to pass all the tests. Is it the same for other states as well?

[YOY]

1. Going to Toledo State U is tantamount to going to Jail anyways

:shrug: Trust me spent a Semester there and regretted it the rest of my life.

On edit the system isn't working. Time to fix it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. This is so insane

Last year, I think it was in Minnesota (?), the tests were scored inaccurately. Kids were forbidden from graduating and denied college admission and only because their tests were scored wrong!! :grr:

So I wonder if that is the deal in Ohio this year. It's hard to see how a kid with a 4.0 can fail the test.

[Horse with no Name]

7. Hard indeed

But my kids were in a school district where the parents did the homework and the extra credit for their kids, teachers changed scores on tests after being threatened and when all else failed, parents that were substitute teachers changed their kids grades in the gradebook.
So it is hard to see where a kid with a 4.0 could fail a test...unless that kid didn't have a 4.0 in the first place.:shrug:

[hedgehog]

14. I didn't have the highest averages in my class, but I always blew everyone else out of the water

when it came to standardized tests. Years later, I found out that on in-school tests, I was the only one going it alone; everyone else was "collaborating". On properly proctored standardized tests, everyone was on their own and graded on that basis. I went to a class reunion this week-end; one of the women who "collaborated" with others all through high school lamented to me that her kids did well in school and poorly on the SATs. She said that some day, we'd identify that test-taking gene. LOL, I think we'd have better luck looking for that cheating gene!

BTW, I can remember when she pooh-poohed the notion that the SATs were culturally biased. Now that her kid isn't doing well, there's something wrong with the test!


On edit: I don't know anything about the kid in the story. I'll assume that she earned her 4.0. Even if she did cheat, she probably could have pulled a 3.5 on her own.

[EstimatedProphet]

51. If she's already in accepted in college, just take the GED and be done with it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. What if she is looking for a scholarship?

[EstimatedProphet]

61. OK, point taken

That might affect it somewhat.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. This really happened to kids in Minnesota last year

They lost scholarships because the standardized graduation test was scored wrong.

[EstimatedProphet]

76. OW! That's gotta suck

[treestar]

130. Yeah, that seems awfully odd

Even the Bush administration could hardly come up with a test so out of it that a really smart kid couldn't pass it. I'd be more concerned if it was an average kid. Something's wrong.

[etherealtruth]

171. I could (and still can) blow everyone out of the water r/t ...

... standardized testing. my High school grades were so/so (but I generally scored in the 97-99 percentiles when it came to standardized tests, I'm old now but as I recall I scored incredibly high on my ACT.

My daughter (13) has a 3.95 grade point average but scores only in the 80-90 percentiles on standardized tests (she does ALL of her own homework and has a really good grasp of the subjects she studies.

One of my pseudo niece's was a slightly above average student (class grades) and for whatever reason scored as if she were close to being retarded on standardized testing.

Standardized testing gives results that are reflective of how well a student takes this type of test ...not a whole lot more.

[Horse with no Name]

191. I'm fortunate to be an excellent test taker

I took my Nursing Board exams at a large convention center with thousands of applicants back when they did it that way.
My nursing instructor told me to warn the ones sitting around me not to feel intimidated when I finished way before they did.
It took me 30 minutes to complete a test that was designated over 4 hours...ate lunch then came back and took 30 minutes to finish the other 4 hours part. Was a little funny that when I raised my hand and the proctor came over, they asked me if I needed to go to the bathroom--the look on her face was priceless when I told her I was finished,lol.
Some people I believe are very good test takers. Some are not.
That is always in the equation as well.

[etherealtruth]

192. Oh my gosh, I forgot al about that ...

That is how state boards were taken. I can remember being herded into Cobo Hall (home of the North American Auto Show), as I recall we had to wait weeks (if not over a month)for our test results ... you worked on a temporary license until you passed and got the real one (or failed).

I've actually been missing nursing a lot lately ... I (stupidly) let my license lapse about 12-15 years ago ... I would have to retake the boards now:puke: and even though I'm a great test taker I graduated from nursing school in '84 and haven't worked in the field for so long ...

[uppityperson]

212. I remember boards also.

I finished, looked around wondering wtf? Most everyone else was still busy writing, except for a couple people with confused looks on their faces too. I figured I must've failed since it seemed so easy. Then got to wait for weeks to see. Some people are good test takers, some are not. I think there needs to be a couple ways to prove you know enough to get highschool diploma.

[Beausoleil]

11. "It's hard to see how a kid with a 4.0 can fail the test"

Exactly. If a kid really earns a 4.0 GPA, why are they failing any part of a standardized test? Either the grading is wrong or the test is inappropriate or the 4.0 education is bogus.

[hlthe2b]

40. Testing Inaccuracies... disaster in the making...

Years ago, I had experience with this...I was recommended to attend college 1/2 day my senior year because there were minimal advanced placement classes available in the HS I attended. With a straight A average, I tested to take Calculus, having already completed all other math classes. When I went to register, the college counselor told me I'd need to register for REMEDIAL math!

I was devastated, but had the presence of mind to question the results--repeatedly. The jerk was as condescending as he could be but I wasn't leaving his office. Sure enough, there had been a computer error and hundreds of tests were scored incorrectly. With egg on his face, his attitude changed immediately. Condescension changed to a more respectful attitude and he made sure I got the Calculus class I needed..

I just wonder how often this happens. Had I not been a sort of "ballsy" teenager, I and hundreds of others would have been labeled as "deficient!" This would have affected us that semester and throughout our entire college careers!

I have no respect for the NCLB and similar programs.... It has taken all the teaching out of school, if you ask me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. I am sure this happens a lot more than we realize.

Good for you for speaking out.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

89. Minnesotan here

And my class year (2000) was the first year to take the standardised tests (I passed first time fortunately). One of my classmates took the test again in the hopes of graduating with us in June of 2000. He was told he didn't pass and it turned out he had passed.

He missed graduation but they gave him a graduation in the high school auditorium. Not the same as he really wanted to graduate with us.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. Thank you for sharing that

I hope that kid filed a humongous lawsuit.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

195. It's been a while

I remember he was in the newspaper and all.

Some tests I do very well on some I don't do very well on. It depends on the skills I have or how nervous I am! I studied for a LONG time for those standardised tests (had a tutor for the maths part of the test, as I suck at maths). It's changed a lot since then (the next year, class year 2001, had to pass at a higher percentage (I think it was 80%).

I really like the British way of doing things (Pick the subjects you are very good at and study those only!). If only I could have dropped Calculus in favour of taking a Social Science based approach in University!

[Telly Savalas]

188. Don't worry.

By 2020 we can expect Congressional Democrats to hold a hearing about this in the basement of the Capitol and issue a non-binding resolution with suggestions for improvements to NCLB.

[goclark]

3. This is horrible!

No reason for it at all!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. The idea behind these tests...

is that some anonymous government beaucrat knows more about children's education the child's teachers, so that 4.0 he got is untrustworthy, and we, the public, have no idea if this student is fit to graduate from high school.

[mondo joe]

5. How does a 4.0 student fail the test?????? I'm left wondering about the grading

practices at the school, frankly.

[Goblinmonger]

8. Yeah, question the teachers

and not the bullshit tests put into place by the fuckhead republicans.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Not to mention that there may have been a mistake

scoring them.

[Donnachaidh]

19. there very well MAY have been a mistake.

And I think, considering the purported GPA of this child, ALL possibilities should be looked into. If I was her (or her parent) I'd be outraged.

[AwakeAtLast]

164. Yup, it has happened on the SAT's before

No test is 100% accurate. And if Diebold is involved in the scoring, well then, we know what happened. ;)

:hi:

[Donnachaidh]

16. I didn't know there was a ban on questioning *possible* mistakes

if perhaps a Teacher was involved. I guess when one receives their credentials they become *infallible*? :sarcasm:

[Goblinmonger]

20. Oh, no, you're right

The right-wing talking point that public education is a laughing stock is so dead on that anytime there is a discrepancy between the grades given to a student by the teachers that know that student and the scores on a standardized test created by someone in an office somewhere working for a big corporation, then CLEARLY the fault must be with the teacher. :sarcasm:

On edit: That talking point has nothing to do with trying to privatize education and put even more money into the hands of the corporate friends of the administration. Nope, that can't be it.

[Donnachaidh]

24. So basically it's NOT a possibility of a teacher's mistake?

Since there are NO bad teachers? Any problem is a RW conspiracy against teachers? :sarcasm:

It's pretty frightening from a parent's viewpoint to see how teachers get so DEFENSIVE about ANY problem that crops up. Just as there are BAD cops, or BAD business people, there evidently isn't ANY possibility that a teacher might make mistakes?

That attitude REALLY teaches our kids how to be honest and fair, doesn't it? Let's just refuse to even consider the possibility of a mistake.

That sounds just like Gonzo and the rest of them in Washington.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. In order to have a 4.0

She would have had to have had many teachers over four years make the same mistake.

Yeah, right.

[Fleshdancer]

170. exactly. n/t

[Goblinmonger]

33. Sure there are bad teachers.

But this isn't a kid that got an A in English and then flunked the English portion of the exam. This is a kid with a 4.0. That would mean not that there is one or two bad teachers in that school, but pretty much that they are ALL bad. You seem to want to accept that explanation before the fact that perhaps the test is somehow flawed.

[Nikia]

199. I think that she only failed one section

Depending upon the school and which section it is, that may have only been one or two bad teachers that gave her good grades because she was doing well in everything else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. The teachers don't score these tests

How fair is it to blame them for a mistake that they could not have possibly made?

[treestar]

132. I think they are probably defensive because they are so often blamed

for something they have no ultimate control over. How many times little Johnny has been flunking and his parents just blame the teacher.

Sure the teacher could have made a scoring mistake.

[mondo joe]

59. Sorry I violated your sacred cow. I think questioning any party is fair.

[Goblinmonger]

87. But my point is why jump on the teachers first?

If this kid had a 4.0, then that means that EVERY teacher gave the kid an A. You are going to tell me that every teacher in the school is inflating grades to the point that they are that far off? You don't even address the fact that it might be the test or the scoring thereof.

[mondo joe]

145. I don't think QUESTIONING is the same as JUMPING ON.

I do think there's a problem with grade inflation.

I also think it's possible the test was inaccurately scored.

It should be relatively easy to determine if the latter option occured.

My impression was my impression, and plainly a tentative one.

[Donnachaidh]

12. that was MY first thought as well

Can anyone explain it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. The school doesn't grade the test

It is standardized and graded either by the publishing company, electronically or by the state dept of education.

In my state, the state dept scores our tests. But it varies from state to state.

[mondo joe]

60. I didn't mean the school grading the test -- I mean the school grading the

student throughout the years that yielded a 4.0.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Well I can see a teacher once in awhile inflating grades

but 4 years of teachers all inflating grades this badly?

Nah.

[mondo joe]

73. If it's the culture of the school, I can see it happening, Especially if it's

encouraged by the principal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. I don't teach high school

So it's hard for me to know much about that.

[Goblinmonger]

88. You are giving the principal

WAY too much power. Tenured teachers don't have to follow what a principal encourages. I find it hard to believe that there would be an entire school of teachers inflating grades that much.

[Horse with no Name]

136. Not dissing teachers but the teachers work within a system

It is the same system that denied my daughter Salutatorian with a 4.0 avg and gave it to another kid who had a 3.9.
The parents were the squeaky wheel.
My daughter received a death threat last year because of her grades...
We had an English teacher that was a man about 24--very good teacher--who wrote up a pink slip for a student that said "Fuck" in the classroom. Well that pinkslip kept this student out of the National Honor Society. Well that is until the father of that student threatened the young male teacher with allegations of sexual harassment (which didn't exist)and the school administration didn't want to deal with this family (same one that got Salutatorian) so they destroyed the pinkslip and inducted the student into the National Honor Society.
Teachers work within the constraints of the system they are in. Many times administration is the culprit.

On edit:
That was the first and last year this English teacher taught. He went back to school to do something else.

[spacelady]

181. I did not have this particular scenario, BUT I taught at the high school

level for two years and saw the ridiculous contortions the admin would go through with parents of students "who could do no wrong" and teachers' hands were tied. I decided to do something else with my education as well.
But I do not think that uttering the word "fuck" should have kept an otherwise worthy student out of National Honor Society, either.
Nor do I think that one exit exam should exempt a 4.0 student from receiving a diploma.

I taught in 1984-86. OLD SCHOOL

[Nikia]

202. It does not say how many science classes she took

If the school was underperforming in general and she took her science class or two with students who lacked basic reading, writing, and math skills, she could have been given good grades for this reason alone. At some schools, where there are few students who will go to college, teachers may feel the need to give the best students good grades even if they are not doing as well in their class in particuliar. Regardless, there were a maximum of 4 teachers involved, maybe even only one or two.

[Dora]

109. It's appropriate to raise questions of everyone involved.

I would start with the test writers, not the test takers.

What was being tested?

What were the questions as they were presented to the test-takers?

How was the test vetted before being issued to the students. In such high-stakes testing, vetting is of paramount importance.

Then we can start questioning the teachers and the students.

[JVS]

150. I wonder about that and the course selection of this student

[Zynx]

162. All A's in science and repeatedly fails the science section?

Sounds like the issue is the student and whoever is giving her those grades, not the test.

[acmavm]

6. I'm so jaded my first thought was 'I bet there's a Neal Bush educational

program that will fix this problem and after paying for the classes and receiving the mystery information they need to pass the test, it'll all just go away."

Jeeze, I'm seeing bush** bloody grasping fingers in EVERYTHING.

[blm]

84. Come sit by me then.

;)

[acmavm]

158. Move over. Here I come.

[Bandit]

9. Someone is BSing someone somewhere

If she really is a straight A student then she should have easily passed the exam. Since she did not there is something wrong with her grades or the system used to grade her. I believe in testing for one's knowledge. If she can't pass a test that 90% do pass then something is really wrong..

[Donnachaidh]

10. I have to ask -- this is NOT to put down the student

But exactly HOW does she have a 4.0 and then fails the OGT test?

This isn't a knock on her, but I know in my kid's school the classes are so intertwined with the taking of those tests I don't see how anyone can have a gpa like that and fail.

It's a horrible thing for her, but I'm not sure how she's been failed.

[geek_sabre]

17. Grade inflation is epidemic in high schools.

I suspect its a result of our litigation-happy society. Quite a few of my first year college students had 4.0 or higher, but still can't manage to string a coherent sentence together.

[Donnachaidh]

21. I have to agree with you there

I was STUNNED at the writing skills of 6th graders at my son's school. They were put up on an AV screen, for the parents, at a PTA meeting. These writings were done by HONORS students. My child has had little or no BASIC english composition classes, but I've been tutoring him since first grade.

And my school board hates to see me coming, because it's a SIN to pass these children on without the basic skills they need to survive the working world.

[Goblinmonger]

23. Wow

Teachers and lawyers in one slam. Nice double stereotype.

Sorry that public education can't live up to the rigorous standards of your post-secondary expectations.

[Donnachaidh]

27. Sorry you feel so defensive

But I'm speaking from experience.

If teachers refuse to listen to problems their students are having, how can THEY learn to correct them? I didn't know that teachers are infallible, excuse me for pointing out their feet of clay. :sarcasm:

[Goblinmonger]

38. So we should take your anecdotal evidence

as an indication that the teachers in the article are all for shit? Perhaps you might want to re-examine your understanding of what actually passes for proof. What indication do you have to show that the teachers of the student in the OP don't listen, don't correct problems, and have feet of clay?

[geek_sabre]

32. Where did I slam teachers or lawyers?

I don't fault the teacher in the OP situation at all, because the vast majority of the students did pass all of the exams. Grade inflation is a result of pressure on teachers to get every kid into college. I mentioned "litigation happy society" because I've heard far to many cases of parents who will sue a school because their child didn't get a grade that they felt they deserved. I don't blame lawyers for wanting to make an easy buck.

Since when is being able to write a coherent sentence a "rigorous post-secondary" expectation?

[Goblinmonger]

44. Perhaps my initial reaction wasn't correct

but the memes of "grade inflation" and "litigation happy society" are generally used as slams on teachers and lawyers respectively.

The "rigorous post-secondary" comment was sarcasm. I used it to point out what seemed to be hyperbole on your part. I find it hard to believe that most high school students can't write a coherent sentence when they get to college. Maybe you teach at a shitty college and all the good students go elsewhere?

[karlrschneider]

74. You must not get around many college freshmen. Most of them actually are

semi-illiterate. Sad but true.

[Goblinmonger]

85. Well, I teach high school seniors

and most of them are not semi-illiterate.

[karlrschneider]

104. Well, Oshkosh is 2 or 3 universes away from Toledo.

...

[Goblinmonger]

114. Yeah, UWO is the Harvard of the Midwest.

I don't teach in Oshkosh, though.

[karlrschneider]

123. Immaterial. Iowa is about the most homogeneous state in the country.

...

[seabeyond]

112. why am i the only one around smart, educated, articulate, informed "kids"

i have them all around me. i have my 6th and 3rd grades sons friends at our house a lot and they are in my face talking bush and politics and everything else. what they saw on a & e, or history channel or what they read. i have talked to many high school kids that go on and on and on about what is happening in this world. i have to tell my boys friends to go away and play.

we have smithsonian and times and national geographics all over the house and often kids sitting there reading. books everywhere and two, three, four trips to library a week, not to mention barnes and noble and hastings being favorite stores

i wont jump into the frenzy that all our kids are useless, out of control, worthless, illiterate subhuman animals.

[Goblinmonger]

115. You're not

I have many of them in my classes. Nice they can be smart in spite of their horrible teachers.

[seabeyond]

124. i know. you are cute. i LOVE ALL my boys teachers, thru out the years

they have worked with my boys so hard. i go in with any issue and we talk, and address and look to resolve. they are simply thrilled to have a parent that is on their side for the best of the child. i have not found one teacher that wants to do my kid in, or not teach him, or is lazy or or or

i LOVE my kids teachers. i tell them often. and that just excites the teachers a little more. refreshes them a tad, even in all there struggles and obstacles that our society is doing their damnest to put in teachers ways.

i am getting chocolate for three teachers last day of school as another thank you.

cant figure i am simply so blessed to get the BEST teachers everytime for both my boys year after year after year. but must be the same as all those smart good kids ONLY hanging out with me too. wink

thanks for all you do.

[uppityperson]

213. Having to train Jr there are 2 things you need to do.

1. Learn something, keep learning, being interested, finding out about stuff, etc
2. Give the teachers what they want to get a decent grade. This can be a tough one, or an easy one, depending on the kid.

I highly prefer those who can do #1 well, but they need to be able to do both.

[clemencia1946]

121. Similar problem in 1978

I went to college in 1978. In freshman English, I sat next to a girl who graduated as valedictorian of her class, but could not pass the course.

She was shocked; she felt she had been duped by her school. This was in Texas.

[knitter4democracy]

34. She has to pass every section. The writing section is easy to fail.

The writing section is graded by non-writers, non-English majors, non-teachers. They spend less than a minute on each essay, and if the student does anything creative or different, they often fail her.

[geek_sabre]

45. She failed the science

Not sure if she failed any others, but thats the one mentioned in the article

[knitter4democracy]

139. I missed that. Sorry.

Still. I wonder what science was on there. I remember being part of a test group for the then-new Michigan science test, and I was livid at getting an 88, and then we found out I was in the 95th percentile or somesuch. They'd put everything but the kitchen sink on there, and we hadn't had most of it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. The testing companies hire TEMPS to score these tests

TEMPS with no experience teaching, and no experience scoring exams. They pay them minimum wage. And put them on a time closk with a quota.

And we - right here in this thread - blame the teachers. Oh it must have been those bad bad teachers. They must really suck, they must be inflating grades, cause these kids can't pass this test scored by TEMPS. :sarcasm:

Some days, I just want to bang my head in the wall after I read DU.

[knitter4democracy]

141. I hear ya. After I found out about that, I was furious!

How could we do that to kids? Sheesh--Power of the Pen is strictly judged by English teachers, and when I was a judge, I was able to do it quickly and fairly. How hard would it be to hire actual teachers?

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. They do hire teachers to score in my state

but only for a few select items on a few select tests. The bulk are graded by temp workers. And I think this year they decided not to hire teachers because we have not been asked if we were interested in doing this. They usually send out notices by January of scoring positions in the summer.

[knitter4democracy]

168. There's Republican thinking for ya.

We're going to have standards (that don't make sense) and hold the (wrong) people accountable and call it progress. :eyes:

[etherealtruth]

172. What if the kid succumbed to the pressure associated with ...

"Your graduation from high school rests on your performance on this test" or she had a cold, or she had just broken up with a boyfriend, or one (or both) of her parents are assholes ...

[philosophie_en_rose]

177. Maybe she was sick? Maybe the test questions were not clear?

Maybe there was a mistake in scoring.

Maybe this student is able to craft excellent work over time, but has difficulty under the pressures of this particular test.

Maybe she made a mistake on the scantrons, which could hypothetically totally screw up your score.

Maybe someone smudged her writing sample and it was illegible.


Frankly, there are a myriad of reasons why an excellent student could not succeed on one test.

[DS1]

15. Grade Point Averages have been incredibly inflated the last few years

Seems like these days everyone's walking out of HS with a 4.0

They hand them out, or have to deal with helicopter parents yelling at them on the phone.

[hedgehog]

18. I think this is a comment on the school, not the kid.

Standardized tests only identify the problem, they don't fix it. She probably worked her butt off to get those grades. It's not her fault that the school didn't offer her the opportunity to learn what the state wants her to know.

[KamaAina]

138. School's performance was the worst in Toledo

Here are the Ohio Graduation Test results from Toledo
Public Schools’ individual high schools:
• Bowsher, 261 students will graduate and 10 seniors did not pass all OGT sections.
• Libbey, 98 will graduate and 17 seniors did not pass all OGT sections.
• Rogers, 207 will graduate and 25 seniors did not pass all OGT sections.
• Scott, 179 will graduate and 48 seniors did not pass all OGT sections.
• Start, 345 will graduate and 18 seniors did not pass all OGT sections.
• Waite, 209 will graduate and 5 seniors did not pass all OGT sections.
• Woodward, 169 will graduate and 24 seniors did not pass all OGT sections.
• Toledo Technology Academy high school, 18 seniors will graduate, and no senior failed an OGT section.

Thus, Scott had about twice the failure rate of Toledo schools as a whole.

[Coventina]

22. High school "grades" are virtually worthless as an indicator of knowledge/ability

I teach college, and I can't tell you how many high school graduates, from so-called "high performing" schools, can't even write one complete sentence without glaring spelling or grammatical errors. A complete essay? Forget it!

So yes, I can believe that a "4.0" student could fail a standardized test.

[Goblinmonger]

25. Didn't Socrates

say something similar about how much the younger generation sucked in his time?

[Coventina]

69. Please show me where I said the younger generation sucks.

Their writing ability sucks, yes. If I felt that they sucked, I wouldn't be a teacher.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. standardized tests, on the other hand, are wonderful.

:spray:

[Coventina]

66. I didn't say that.

I was merely saying that performance on one does not predict performance on the other.

[geek_sabre]

35. Sad to see that my experience isn't unique

[moc]

103. Sing it sister. I can one up you on that one.

I teach in a graduate program, so all my students have at least a bachelor's degree and many have advanced degrees. I can't tell you how many couldn't write their way out of a wet paper sack. It's pathetic.

[Warpy]

26. Test taking requires a set of skills

that don't seem to be particularly compatible with anything but taking tests.

I did very well on standardized tests, but I'm no smarter than the next person who did well on class work but froze on those stupid tests.

I've known too many graduate nurses who had huge knowledge bases and were fantastic at their jobs who just couldn't pass the stupid NCLEX test to save their lives.

When a bright and capable student fails some stupid standardized test, a closer look has to be taken. That test shouldn't count for more than a track record of being able to do course work does.

[knitter4democracy]

29. Having taught the Ohio Proficiency, I'm not surprised.

They don't have teachers grading the writing section, just people in some company in another state that only have to have a two year degree (at least, that's the story that came out when I was teaching there six years ago). I had great writers who failed the first test because they didn't write exactly the way the graders were taught to grade. Anything interesting or creative got graded down because it looked different (graders spent less than a minute on each essay).

The tests suck. They're poorly written, mistakes have been found on them, entire batches get run through and graded incorrectly, and the kids suffer for it. Frankly, we need to do away with them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. On our state 3rd grade writing test, the kids can't use any pronouns

They get marked down for it, he, she, we, they, etc. So they end up with the stiffest essays!

[knitter4democracy]

137. That is seriously messed up.

If they're trying to eliminate the second person, then just do that. Don't eliminate pronouns altogether. Did an English teacher come up with that? I highly doubt it.

Stupid tests.

[TlalocW]

31. Not that I agree with No Child Left Behind but...

Just because these kids have a 4.0, that doesn't mean anything. I had to sit through 4 years of high school graduation ceremonies - my own, of course, and the previous 3 years because I was in the band and had to play, "Pomp and Circumstance," for the entry of the students. One year there were 5 co-valedictorians - all cheerleaders, and while I don't hold to the stereotype that all cheerleaders are stupid bimbos, these girls were. I knew them and had to deal with them quite a bit because of - once again - my being in band (being in band meant you were in concert, jazz, marching, and pep - small school). On various different occasions, I learned they didn't know how to use the library card catalog, did not know which coast of the US the Atlantic and Pacific oceans were on, and one of them thought Washington D.C. was in Washington State. They got their 4.0s by taking easy electives - like home ec for 4 years.

That being said, if they did get their 4.0s, that does mean they did pass the barest requirements for a high school diploma that their state offers, and if they did it by taking consumer math, elementary science, etc. for their required classes and then nothing but gym, home ec, etc. for electives, they deserve to walk.

TlalocW

[Orangepeel]

37. There are a lot of possible reasons for this...

Maybe there was a mistake and the wrong test was given
Maybe the test was mis-graded
Maybe the test is not reflective of the material taught
Maybe the 4.0 GPA is bogus
Maybe she fell asleep during the test
Maybe she skipped a row and bubbled in the answers to the wrong questions
Maybe she used a #1 pencil

If 90% of the students passed the test, the anomaly here is probably with the particular student and not the particular test, but it does highlight one of the problems with basing so much on one day's performance. People make mistakes.

Most tests have more than one question. Most classes have more than one assignment. Most card games have more than one hand... the average of multiple indicators is usually better at predicting ability than just one indicator. This test has multiple questions, but it is still one day's performance.

[aikoaiko]

159. Good post. There are many explanations for the outcome.

But that won't stop anyone from yelling about their favorite education issues.

[Kelly Rupert]

39. All this proves is her high school's ridiculous grade inflation.

There's no way--NO WAY--that a senior with a 4.0 should fail any section of the graduation tests. How on Earth did the school give her an A in every one of her science classes if she couldn't even muster a passing grade in the science section? Pathetic.

[Goblinmonger]

48. Yep, PROVES it

because there couldn't POSSIBLY be a spurious relationship here. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that there is some problem with the test or the scoring thereof. That can't be it. It must be that EVERY teacher that had the student gave an A when it wasn't deserved. That must be it.

Have you ever even heard of Occam's Razor?

[Kelly Rupert]

53. Yes, I have, and I feel comfortable saying that it assists my point.

Grade inflation is well-documented and widespread, as are lowered graduation standards. Sure, it's possible that the test was scored wrongly. However, while I've seen plenty of antecdotes, I've never heard of scoring errors being statistically significant, while evidence for systematic grade inflation abounds.

So the two choices are: example of known widespread phenomenon observable over the past few decades, and example of freak error. Don't think ol' William's coming down on your side.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Please educate yourself about scoring errors

About 27,000 people who took the exam received lower scores than they should have, and 4,100 of them were wrongly told they had failed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/15/education/15sat.html?ex=1300078800&en=6199114a7ea4ea07&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

The mistakes, which the company, Pearson Educational Measurement, acknowledged yesterday, raised fresh questions about the reliability of the kinds of high-stakes tests that increasingly dominate education at all levels. Neither Pearson, which handles state testing across the country, nor the College Board detected the scoring problems until two students came forward with complaints.
http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/testerrors01bk.htm

"The errors that were made are those that primarily were caused when you have so much volume. It's just more difficult to have quality control, the kind that you need — and testing really requires quality control."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/03/eveningnews/main1467643.shtml

[Kelly Rupert]

58. Thank you for giving me more antecdotes when I asked for statistics,

and had specifically said that I was aware of the antecdotes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. 27,000

Is that enough of a statistic for you?

If you had bothered to take the time to actually click on those links and actually READ the articles, (especially the CBS one) you would find expert opinions and far more than anecdotal information.

But all I can do is post links. Can't make you educate yourself.

[seabeyond]

86. she be flunkin that ole tak test for sure, ya think.... n/t ba hhhahahaha

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Especially the reading comprehension portion

:eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

91. You might want to look up the meaning of the word "antecdotes"

Though you may want to spell it correctly when you do look it up. 27000 is a pretty significant number. I'm sure someone could run the p scores for you, but don't be so obtuse as to argue that 27000 is just anecdotal.

[Goblinmonger]

113. You may want to look up the definition for "antecdotes"

but you will probably want to spell it correctly when you do.

27000 is hardly anecdotal evidence. I'm sure someone could run the p scores for you.

[SharonAnn]

169. It's spelled "anecdotes", not "antecdotes".

[seabeyond]

54. or, look at the tests and questions and see if they are really looking to see if kid

has knowledge, or it is about tripping up the kids, mixed up questions, making it hard to figure out what is even being asked, or what possibly could be a "correct" answer in choices.

it can just as likely have to do with the way these tests are written. from what i saw this year, the tests really lacked in clarity.

[Kelly Rupert]

55. Ah, a third option.

A malicious test, which 90% of seniors manage to figure out, but which this poor genius couldn't. Sure.

[seabeyond]

you are wrong. you simplify. there are problems in this test and adults across

the board, republican and democrat, teachers and parent recognize that there are problems.

or we can do like you, form an opinion without knowledge or experience and igore the issues

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. My favorite example is from a 1st grade test

The kids were shown a picture of a parasol, which is basically an umbrella with fringe. They had to pick the word that labeled this picture. The choices were

*parasol
*umbrella
*rain
*shade

Now let's talk about the average 7 year old's ability to read the word PARASOL. :eyes:

The smart kids in my class picked umbrella. A few picked rain. No one marked parasol.

[seabeyond]

67. exactly n/t

[knitter4democracy]

142. That's also a cultural question.

Certain parts of American culture use that term, but not everyone does. That's pretty blatant.

[proud2BlibKansan]

152. It's an age issue for me

How many 7 year olds know what a parasol is?

There was another question on that same test. It was a picture of a faucet. The choices were:

*water
*drip
*faucet
*sink

NONE of my kids got this one right either. Most marked drip or water. How many 7 year olds call it a faucet? And even if they do, that's a mighty hard word for a 7 year old to read.

[Pacifist Patriot]

207. As an adult I might get that question wrong because of my tendency to...

multi-interpret. Now if it said:

milk
rabbit
faucet
stove

I could probably do it. ;)

[philosophie_en_rose]

178. It doesn't prove that at all.

She could have had a bad day and not done well on the test. Maybe she works really hard and develops good work product over time, but was stressed by the test.


You really have no idea whether the young women earned her grades or not.

[sakabatou]

41. NCLB -- Oxymoron

[radfringe]

46. obviously the students are being taught the wrong things

they are being taught subject matter instead of being taught the test

[geek_sabre]

49. If 90%, not 10% had failed, your point would be valid.

[mondo joe]

72. Obviously if any fewer than 100% pass the test, there's something wrong with it.

At least that's how it seems here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

174. Under NCLB, 100% of our kids have to be proficient

So yes, we need to expect 100% to pass.

[seabeyond]

47. good. that is what is happening in texas. these tests are not to see if a student learned

from what i saw this year with 3rd grade, can you believe... to give the most convoluted questions to see if they could trip the student up. the pressures of the tests, and the backward and unclear questions for students to try and decipher what was really being meant, in anything BUT a clear fashion has simply been outrageous. and i am a parent that had two kids get all right on language. my third grader had a breakdown about noon, physically made himself sick, bucked up and was in school taking test until 5:00 in the evening. the teachers coming out, one after the other, as i wait in the parking lot, all agreed the test was beyond any they have seen in hardness

the rep in my area here in texas is strongly, aggressively fighting these tests. non graduating rate is sky rocketing

[karlrschneider]

64. How can she get a 4.0 and not pass the test?

Something stinks here.

[seabeyond]

71. the tests stink. n/t

[mondo joe]

75. It stinks so badly that 90% of the students pass it.

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

78. 16 % in texas. and that doesnt include kids that had already given up

prior to the senior year tak test

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/051207dntextaksfails.5c9ba6b1.html

[mondo joe]

79. What do you think is a failure rate that indicates there is a problem with the test?

[seabeyond]

83. you didnt read the article did you? you answered way too quickly.

it isn't about really understanding if there maybe issues but to win an argument. it is much more for me. i have spent years listening to teachers, legislation, education boards, principals, parents and students with how they see these tests. i want to truly know what are the problems and where we can make corrections if need be. the vast majority of both party, the professional and non professional, feels the need to address some issues.

or one can just throw out flip comments. that doesn't do it for me on this issue.

3rd grade taking math tak tests in april. from march until the test they dumped social studies and science to give the kids two periods of math. to exclusively teach to these tests.

now... why do you think the passing is as high as it is? is there an issue dumping subjects to focus on test taking? some of us adults do have issue with that. and what does it say about test that need to be worked, re worked and worked again to get kids to pass?

[mondo joe]

148. I didn't read your article because I was more interested in an answer

to my question.

Why do I think it's so high? Because I'd expect it to be high -- by the time a student is about to graduate I'd expect the supermajority to pass the test. I'd also expect a superminority to not pass, reflecting kids who feel through the cracks.

[karlrschneider]

77. You know this...how? Have you seen the tests?

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

81. i have seen some of the questions, yes. my 3rd grade student had a simple

addition word problem. i read the question three times and finally exploded, what the hell are they asking for here. sentences were disjointed, i couldnt even grasp what they wanted, it was such a mess.

these tests are to see if a student understands the basics that are being taught. they are not a curve test, or shouldnt be made to be the very toughest an adult imagination could make them. there should be a simplicity to them. use the SAT test for college entry for weeding out students. that is not what these test were intended to do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. Most states put sample questions online so yes, anyone

can really see what the tests are like.

[karlrschneider]

107. I just finished looking at sample (and real) questions from 3 states

including Ohio. They seem quite simple and straightforward.

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. Here's one they didn't put online

From a 4th grade Math test:

Lindsay was making cookies. She knew she needed to take them out of the oven five minutes before noon. (There is a picture of a clock showing this time)

Which of the following is NOT a way to say the time shown?

a. 11:55 pm
b. 5 minutes to noon
c. 5 minutes after 12
d. 5 minutes to 12

[karlrschneider]

120. So it's a defective question. If this is real (?) somebody would have

gotten it fixed. Or maybe it was MEANT to have 2 right answers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. Oh it's real alright

I just copied it from a test we gave this spring. We have several like this every year. And the grammatical mistakes are unreal.

The testing companies that write these tests are obviously overwhelmed with the task. And our kids suffer because of this.

And FYI, I did email the testing company about this question. So did several other teachers in my district. Funny, they have yet to respond. :eyes:

So next year, when they tell us that our 4th graders can't tell time, we will know that is BS. Since this is the ONLY question on the test that asks the kids to tell time, it sure isn't an accurate measure, now is it? Yet, I know that some newspaper somewhere will pick up on this and write an article about how 4th graders in my district can't tell time.

Do you get it now?

[TheTimmer]

126. Unless you wrote that wrong

then there are 2 answers to that, since five minutes before noon would be 11:55am, not pm.

[proud2BlibKansan]

160. Exactly; it's a mistake

made by the company who wrote the test.

[trashcanistanista]

161. This is a trick question - only one aswer is correct.

The question asks how the clock could be read. 11:55 PM is correct on reading the clock so the only correct answer is 5 minuts past noon. The sentence about the cookies coming out at 5 minutes to noon is a distraction and not relevant to the question. You can read the clock two ways 11:55 am or 11:55 pm.

[proud2BlibKansan]

175. This is from a 4th grade test

Kids that age are not capable of the critical thinking you used to figure this out.

[MadHound]

90. Test anxiety, student was ill, student was too busy with other things to preapare,

The test itself sucked, the test was skewed to a particular socio-economic bracket, all of these things and more can and do effect a student's outcome on a test. I've seen 4.0s struggle with a lot of different standardized tests.

[Pacifist Patriot]

94. Wow, you said what I did at #92, much more succinctly.

Thanks!

[MadHound]

97. Thanks. I'm back in college studying to be an elementary school teacher

Just got done with a large section on tests, problems with writing them, students taking them, grading them, etc. last semester. It is still fresh in my mind.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. And don't forget how stupid it is to judge

FOUR YEARS of schooling with ONE test that is given on ONE day.

[geek_sabre]

122. According to the OGT

They first take the exam sophomore year, and have the opportunity to retake it every semester until graduation. So its one test, five times, on five days.

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. And a school year is somewhere around 175 - 180 days

times 4.

[KamaAina]

143. "the test was skewed to a particular socio-economic bracket"

Hmmmm....

the nasty paper won't let me link to their pix, but nearly all of the students shown protesting at the school district appear to be African American or Latino.

...could be.

[Pacifist Patriot]

93. Please see my comments at #92.

[karlrschneider]

105. None of which explain the fact that over 90% of them passed, and

it's probably safe to presume they didn't all have 4.0 GPAs.

[Pacifist Patriot]

131. I didn't offer an explanation why 90% passed. I offered an explanation why...

one individual can fail. There is a difference.

[BlooInBloo]

70. A grading system of idiots, by idiots, and for idiots.

[Pacifist Patriot]

92. It is indeed possible for a brilliant student to fail a standardized test.

And we're just talking one of five sections of it. There are several scenarios I can think of in which a combination of grade inflation and a less than average student are not the cause.

If we assume she is indeed an exceptional academic the following are entirely possible.

1. She had great teachers who didn't "teach to the test," thereby giving her a good education but falling short in a key area that influenced the outcome of the standardized test.

2. The content of the test and/or scoring of the test is fundamentally flawed.

3. The student excels in projects, papers and classroom tests, but does not do well on standardized testing formats.

4. The student excels in projects, papers and classroom tests, but freezes under the pressure of a standardized testing environment.

5. The student was incapacitated in some respect.

6. Any combination above.

I was an A student in the top 5% of my state and absolutely tanked my first SAT because I took it with 103 degree temperature. I did a bit better the second time because I was healthy, but had a difficult time acclimating myself to the format. Many of the questions I could interpret in a variety of ways so often the "correct" answer depending upon my interpretation. In other words, I could see 2 or more right answers. My results were respectable but disappointing personally. By the third time, I figured out the logic of the test writers and kicked butt.

Too much missing information to figure out what happened here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. Let's not forget transcription error.

Student accidently skips one question, fills in the wrong bubbles for the rest of the section.

[Pacifist Patriot]

98. Good point.

I can see myself doing that. More these days as I approach 40 and my arms aren't as long as they used to be, but.... ;)

[seabeyond]

100. can always slip that paper inbetween toes

will hold it out further, bah hahahaha

[Pacifist Patriot]

101. Yeah, but then I have to try to see over the....

boobs flapping about my waist. :silly:

[seabeyond]

102. lmao.... that just busted out. lol lol. yup. isnt it a kick. n/t

[seabeyond]

96. I could interpret in a variety of ways so ... my youngest has a tough time with that

yesterday his math teacher and two other teachers in past has called him genius level, so beyond the other kids in reading comprehension. but nothing in tests (academics) reinforces what the teachers see with this kid. he freezes. he makes himself sick. but the worst.... he will see all kinds of differents ways to see a single question, with many answers. he never sees in always and never so whenever there is a question always or never he will always say false,... but for the test they see in that black and white

not to mention sleep. my oldest wont sleep the night before. will wake up thru out night. that too effects him the next day.

again, both kids got 100s on language test. not to make excuses. just facts i know to be reality. so just cause my kids did/do well, doesnt mean i am going to ignore what i know is a reality

[Pacifist Patriot]

99. Black/white thinking is one of the reasons I detest these test sand...

"teaching to the test." Nuance is lost on so many kids these days. Flexible thinking is virtually eradicated.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. The nice thing about standardized tests...

you can tell the smart people from the stupid people.

Stupid people support this shit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. Bingo!!

:yourock:

[Pacifist Patriot]

133. LOL! Can't disagree.

[philosophie_en_rose]

179. is that it supports lazy education.

Teach the test. Give the test. Pass the test. Don't encourage the kids to think or be creative. If they can't pass the test, well they must suck. :sarcasm:

Seriously. Tests should be a tool, not a punishment. I think it's the height of laziness on the part of the government to inflict unnecessary stress upon schools and students by using these tests as the sole determination of competency.

Could George W. Bush pass these tests?

[spacelady]

186. Same thing with drug tests = lazy management. Never mind that

you may have a brilliant dedicated worker, if his pee is funny no matter whether it was competently taken or tested, well if it comes up dirty then even an Einstein is dogshit. LAZY MANAGEMENT.

Could GW*STUPID pass ANY test??

[philosophie_en_rose]

189. Are you being sarcastic?

Accurate tests should be used as a tool. If a job involves something that involves sobriety (i.e. truck driving or surgery), I would hope that a positive drug test would matter. Unless the test is faulty or there is another explanation, the test results are pretty definitive.

In contrast, standardized tests in education are only one source of information. Performance is contingent upon a myriad of factors other than knowledge. Testing isn't necessarily bad, although it takes a talented system to create and score a meaningful one. However, tests are only one way to measure performance. Portfolios, writing samples, school exams, projects, and other works graded by the people that crafted them are a more accurate way to measure learning.

[spacelady]

190. I am absolutely NOT being sarcastic. Like you said,

Performance is contingent on a number of factors. Exhibit One: Airline pilot gets drunk and snorts copious amounts of cocaine on weekend = passes test on Monday & flies vs. same pilot smokes 1/2 joint a month ago on vacation in Jamaica = dirty test & loses his job. Problematic.

As for standardized tests: "It takes a talented system to create and score a meaningful one." The tests under discussion have none of these attributes.

"Portfolios, writing samples, etc. as a way to measure learning over a student's school career are a more accurate way to measure learning."

AS LONG AS THEY DON'T SMOKE A DOOBIE WHILE BEING BRILLIANT!

[seaglass]

110. To answer your question, in MA. this is not the first year students

have had to pass the test to get their HS diploma.

Our test might be a little different though. It's taken in 10th grade and if you don't pass there are multiple opportunities to pass before senior year (I don't know how many - maybe 2 or 3).

[One_Life_To_Give]

111. After 2 Years of attempts, still can't pass?

I thought something may be wrong with the test, grading, etc. But seeing as these kids first took the test in their Sophmore Year. And since that time have been retaking only those portions which they failed to pass the first time.

4.0 doesn't mean much by itself when were talking about two years of failing to pass the Science portion of the test. 4.0 In science, what classes, how many, etc?

[geek_sabre]

117. I didnt realize they'd taken it multiple times

What are the odds that the grading was incorrect, for the same 10% of students, up to (according to the OGT website) five times??

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. If there was a glitch in the software used to score the tests,

this is not so unbelievable.

[One_Life_To_Give]

135. If Junior Yr Sci teacher

If the Science Teacher in even her Junior year had a really sharp student that couldn't pass that section. I would of thought that teacher would have done some investigating. If you work closely with these kids every day you know who should and should not be able to ace a given test.

Something doesn't quite add up.

[Nikia]

203. We don't know if she took science her junior year

I'll look it up, but I don't think that students in Ohio are required to pass three years of science.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

214. Heh.

So you'll take a computer-graded, mulitple choice one or two hour tests, versus then many trained professionals who actually monitor the student six hours a day, 180 days per year, for four years?

Funny shit.

[Doremus]

134. It's a meaningless test that many colleges couldn't care less about in my experience. n/t

I'd think a certificate of completion, which schools give out in place of a diploma if the student doesn't pass the test, would be sufficient for college entrance. Especially if accompanied by 4.0 transcripts.

[slackmaster]

140. I have a friend who was accepted at Cal Tech after 11th grade

Lack of a high school diploma has never slowed him down. He has an MS in physics now.

[jmowreader]

144. Come on, folks, you know what happened

This is Ohio. Land of the Uniquely Counted Ballot.

What happened here is young Nia Pettaway was handed a testing form for Testing Site 201 (or wherever) and her form accidentally went on the pile for Testing Site 202, where ALL the questions are in a different order.

Because of this simple error, Ms. Pettaway, who has a 4.0 GPA, has been offered a GED--the exact same pseudodiploma you get if you cut class to smoke weed the whole four years you were in high school and now need an "equivalency certificate" so the Army will take you as an infantryman. How's that for some shit?

[Reader Rabbit]

146. As a teacher, I have to say that I find this thread pretty depressing.

It seems like there are quite a few folks here that don't have a very high opinion of the profession. What do they think we're doing in our classrooms, sitting around eating Bon-bons? Getting the kids in a circle and singing "Kumbayah"?

Folks, I've been at this for 15 years now, and there are just some human beings that aren't test takers. They might be geniuses, they might be average, they might be mentally challenged, but regardless of intellectual ability, there are just some people out there that flatline when it comes to tests.

[seabeyond]

151. of course that is a given. most all know this. BUT it is so much more fun to dis a 4.0 student

or teacher it seems

[Blue Diadem]

147. After going to ODE site, it seems these tests are short answer, long answer and multiple

choice.

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=216&ContentID=4347&Content=25609


Here's a link to the practice science workbook for the test 80 pg pdf file

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/DocumentManagement/DocumentDownload.aspx?DocumentID=10181

[theHandpuppet]

153. Y'know, I don't find this as surprising as you might expect

I have a niece who was an honor student all through high school and was offered a college scholarship. She couldn't begin to tell me which countries we fought in WWII, even when I offered her the name "Hitler". She just looked at me blankly, as if she'd never heard the name before. Neither could she tell me when the Civil War was fought or who was President during that time. Couldn't identify China on a map (much less anyplace else outside the USA), name the then-sitting Veep or her own Senators, etc. Unbelievable. I don't know if all the schools in North Carolina are like hers or perhaps I just come from a different day and age where being a thoroughly incurious dumbshit wasn't rewarded with a college scholarship.

Yeah, she's my niece and I love her, but DAY-UM.

[seabeyond]

154. my niece couldnt tell me locations of nm and mexico, we live in texas

she coudnt tell me which was a country and which a state within our united states. she also thought it was cute and never professed to try too hard in school.

half a mind to let my 3rd grade son come in and answer all your questions though, wink.

[Pacifist Patriot]

155. My fourth grade son would kick the snot out of those questions.

I say this in good spirit, but I'm also quite serious.

[MUSTANG_2004]

198. My kids as well

This isn't to brag, just commenting that our kids (1st and 4th grade) also can readily identify the major wars the US was in and who fought with/against us, pick out the states on a map, etc. We homeschool, which helps, but my nephew went through public school and had a pretty good handle on basic history and civics.

The only common thread I see is that kids who are heavy readers get a huge advantage, regardless of the quality of the school system.

[JVS]

157. Was the scholarship need-based or merit-based?

[Ilsa]

156. I can remember spending time correcting my sheet because

I skipped a number. Maybe she failed a section because she skipped a question and got them all wrong.

I hate NCLB.

[tammywammy]

167. Yeah, but she would have had to do that 4 times

They first take the exam sophomore year and are offered it other times afterwards if they failed it. I doubt this student skipped an answer every time she took it.

[rucky]

183. I was hoping someone else would pick up on that! n/t

[Swamp Rat]

163. To hell with these standardised tests

:eyes:

They do not measure intelligence nor ability nor creativity.

[nealmhughes]

165. If this was a scantron test, then getting off by one spot in the sequence skews the entire results.

That is why if a student made an unbelievable horrid grade on the scantron but decently on the essay/matching portion of a Western Civ test I would hand grade it and see where the problem was in the scantron. Often times it would be a missing or doubled mark, and they never checked their work as they had run out of time.
It is easy enough to simply give the test again without the machine marks if one is in doubt. I think I must have done it maybe 3 times out of about 1500 tests over 3 years, and my inkling was correct each time. Out of order sequence.

Guess that never dawned on the administrators of the school system, eh?
It would be most improbable to fail one section of a multisection test if the student had made a 4.0 throughout the year otherwise, save through an error in the scantron...

[dsc]

166. In fairness to Bush

Ohio was requiring passing tests to graduate for years. The difference now is that these tests are harder than the old tests were.

[Blue Diadem]

173. That's right, my youngest graduated in '98 and had them.

I don't remember the other two being required to take them in '93 & '94.

[Nikia]

200. I graduated from an Ohio high school in 1996

I had to pass them. I passed on the first try as did half of my classmates on the first try. At our school, the math section seemed to a section that several students failed so the school offered special tutoring free of charge to students who could not pass that section of the test after two tries. I remember thinking that although some students might fail an area where they were weak academically the first year, there is no way that they should be passing their junior and senior level courses if they couldn't pass the section of the test.
All of the students in my class ended up passing the test although three of my classmates passed their final section on their last try, including an athlete who had already accepted a division 1 scholarship.

[seabeyond]

208. in tx talked to a guy who grad in 2000. he had toss test. he said last year

for the toss test. he got to graduate with that test. said it was much easier than taks test that was established in 2001, i guess. and at least this yr, 2007, they made tougher requirements in passing. students are allowed FEWER mistakes to pass

so i think we have to be careful reaching too far back assuming they are equal today

[Blue Diadem]

209. I remember my son passing on the first try too and it was such a relief!

I had been really worried before the tests because he was known not to apply himself when it involved education.

If my memory is correct, it seems just two or three from his class didn't get their diploma. They were allowed to participate and walk in the ceremony minus receiving the actual diploma.

[LWolf]

176. So how many people are actively opposing

the reauthorization of NCLB?

It's up this year. What do we hear about that? Crickets. It's not on the priority list.

Despite the fact that many of us have been providing information on the harmful effects of high stakes testing programs for years. Even before NCLB, there were versions at the state level in some places. Who cares?

Who besides myself has written Ted Kennedy and George Miller about their enthusiastic support? Who has this on their list of priorities going into any election?

[seabeyond]

182. i worked on a republican womans campaign who is on the board

of education and is actively fighting nclb. also our republican state Representative is putting a lot of pressure on austin addressing this issue. seems to be on the front burner in texas. we will see how it goes and i will work with schools and legislators to do something about this. it is only going to get worse here cause every year adds another layer of issues and expectations that if ot meet will cause problems.

[LWolf]

193. Texas has enough years of damage

behind her to know, having experienced a state version when GWB was governor. It's good to hear that there is resistance. I hope it will be enough, and in time, to make a difference this year.

I know a former teacher from Texas. He had been teaching for almost 20 years. When they told him that he would have his 4th graders scores at a certain point, no matter what, or be on the "short list" for firing, he resigned. Quit teaching, cashed in his retirement to fund training for a new career, and never looked back.

I'm working in a state that hasn't been "on board" with the enthusiastic "test & punish 'til they drop" mentality. This state has tests. The focus has been on using test scores to identify need, and address the need. Fine, as long as the test is valid and the underlying source of the problem is something that schools can realistically do.

Recently, and inevitably, we've come under the nclb microscope. Our tests aren't hard enough, there aren't enough of them, and we aren't punishing low scoring schools enough. We will change, or lose all that federal funding. The mantra of change is in the air, and it's not great.

My administrator (a former teacher) said yesterday that she has never seen such a great divide between district administration and school buildings. We have a new superintendent. Our former super visited schools regularly (he stopped by my room 3 times my first year)and made sure the district office staff did, as well. They tried to stay aware of what was going on with students in the buildings, and build a collaborative relationship with the people working there.

Not any more. It's top-down "do it because we told you to," with very little acknowledgment of reality. Schools will raise test scores; that's the only focus. It doesn't matter if Johnny had anything to eat today, if Susie's parents are meth addicts, or if Leo lives in a single-wide trailer with 12 people, most of them gang members, and only shows up to school once or twice a week when his big brother doesn't need help with the family drug business. Those are just some of my students this year.

If we could get rid of the high-stakes testing mandates and mentality, we might think about ways to help students who's main focus is survival from day-to-day, rather than whether or not their test scores are ok.

[seabeyond]

194. talking to tasst principle, here in a year even the kids in spec ed

have to pass the test or something like that. they are just flabberghasted that the expectation of a child not capable is being told to do something beyond their means. i am not sure exactly how that new rule goes into effect.

we have tutoring after school all year long for children not passing the simulations, they double the math and language clase4s prior to test to focus exclusively on taking test dropping other subjects. i am not going to fault the schools. i see all they are doing trying to keep pressure off students, satisfying rules. it is a tough place for them to be.

[spacelady]

180. There should be many factors determining graduation eligibility

Not the least of which is a grade point average that culminates from 4 YEARS cumulative with MANY different teachers good or bad. ONE lousy test should not negate years of work, it should be a miniscule FRACTION of that work. One bad day and one rotten test does not determine college material. And by material, I mean a PERSON that should go to college and probably on scholarship. STOP THE MADNESS!

[fortyfeetunder]

184. Why aren't these tests weighted along with GPA?

I am one of those who does well in class but practically comes apart when faced with a standardized test. So I'd probably not pass OGT either.

Will agree with the other posters these NCLB tests are weighted along with other criteria for graduation. It cannot, must not be the sole deciding criteria for graduation!! Not until all schools reach parity for education across the board.

[JI7]

185. does anyone have a sample of these tests ?

is there a link online maybe that has a sample for various levels ?

[geek_sabre]

187. here

http://tinyurl.com/yrsptk

[Odin2005]

196. a 4.0 is high school means jack now days because of grade inflation

If schools give out too many low grades the helicopter parents will come and tear thier heads off, hence grade inflation.

[seabeyond]

197. i don't think you have proof of this. further i think facts contradict your conclusion

what i have found in the schools my boys go to is the exact opposite of what you say. i see a very tough grading scale and i am seeing a harsher grade scale that all of us never experienced. in both the elementary school and the middle school they have narrowed the C and D grouping. now a 70-74 is a D. 75-79 is a C. the F starts at 69. seems to me the obvious is the kids today are graded more harshly. some schools are totally taking out C. they are talking about doing that here.

i, for one, really needed the 70-79 as a C in some of my courses while i was growing up. i dont think it is right them changing the grading scale, but more.... it shows you dont know what you are talking about and is consistent with knee jerk criticism of the schools and teacher without knowledge or information.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

204. Heh. But a Harvard committee says so!

"Grades A and B are sometimes given too readily -- Grade A for work of no very high merit, and Grade B for work not far above mediocrity. ... One of the chief obstacles to raising the standards of the degree is the readiness with which insincere students gain passable grades by sham work."

-- Report of the Committee on Raising the Standard, Harvard University, 1894

[Pacifist Patriot]

205. LOL! I find that 1894 report pretty funny, because...

When I was looking into colleges as a high school senior I actually had a visiting Harvard student on a recruiting tour tell me not to go there. Why? He said getting past the admissions process was the hardest thing you'd ever have to do at Harvard. He encouraged me to go to a different university where I would have to work.

Granted, plural of anecdote is not data, but I've always remembered that conversation with a bit of a chuckle.

[seabeyond]

206. see..... ya, bah hahhahaha 1894 lol. ya. i watch what my kids are doing in school.

geometry in 6th grade. we didnt. they are doing so much more than i did. homework every night just about. so many more subjects. i dont buy this... kids arent learning. for me, if kids arent learning, then it is on the parent. parent isnt on kids ass to make sure the kids are taking the opportunities the school are giving the kids. i know as a parent, buck stops with me. not the teacher, or school admn or govt... but me.

parents get MAD at teachers for sending hmework home cause parents are already overworked and dont want to have to stand over jr

[Nikia]

201. I graduated from an Ohio high school in 1996

We had to pass all the sections of the nineth grade proficiency test to graduate. Quite frankly, I don't think that a student who wasn't able to pass that test probably shouldn't be able to pass their junior and senior level courses in that subject. It says that the test is now significantly harder with the new format. They still have multiple chances to pass the test though and should be getting help in the area that they don't pass before the final time to take the test.
Reading the article again, I noticed that it did not say how many science classes Miss Pettaway took during high school. When I was in school, only one science class was required for graduation, although being accept at a state college does suggest that she did take more classes. It is likely that these weren't AP classes or anything and that if she were in classes where students suffered in other areas like reading and writing, she could have been given good grades for that reason alone.

[NashVegas]

210. I Found Last Year's Test Online - Take It Yourself

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1070&Content=17089

I didn't go through the whole thing, I didn't try to score myself. The only part that I had to stop and really think about was the science section.

Overall, I didn't think this test was nearly as difficult as the three years of NYS Regents exams I took over 20 years ago.

[ElboRuum]

211. I'm not saying she didn't get it...

But when I was in school, a 4.0 was tough to get... REEEEAAALLLY tough. Maybe a teacher took a dislike to you, maybe you partied a little too hard in your senior year, maybe you weren't too athletic, so you kept getting B's in gym class, whatever the reason. But now it seems that what was typically unheard of except in the rarest of circumstances is popping up all over.

Kinda makes me wonder if all of these 4.0 GPA students are really the textbook definition of 4.0. Is the educational system so much weaker as a whole that a 4.0 student (who, by definition, never got a grade less than an A in his/her high school career) has even a possibility of failing any exam short of falling asleep midway through?