"Movement" liberals in ACTION --

[Hell Hath No Fury]

It has ALWAYS been what Alter refers to as "movement" people who have taken and CREATED the true ACTION, created the forward movement towards the ideological goal, created the public interest and backing and climate, and created the demand of the people on their elected officials.

[treestar]

1. Those are all Action people

They didn't just sit around and criticize others. When did MLK ever criticize others in the struggle while he sat on his ass and complained they didn't deliver to him the changes they promised? Unrec'd for insulting Gandhi, MLK and the others.

Kerry is a friggin' Senator for crying out loud. He's one of the ones "guilty" of not getting us single payer!

[polichick]

3. Kerry was a movement liberal before he was a Senator. :)

[politicasista]

39. + 1

And the senator was for single payer, but they didn't have enough votes.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

4. Duh. That is my fucking POINT.

This whole "movement liberals" as dreamy folks who sit and navel gaze is BULLSHIT. Movement people are the ones creating the ACTION. Alter's so called "action liberals" do not create action, they respond to it -- oftentimes poorly.

[EFerrari]

10. A cynic would say "action liberals" step in just in time to take credit

for what movement liberals work on for years, like the Lily Ledbetter Act.

A cynic might be right.

[mkultra]

12. or, you might say that an Action liberal is a movement liberal that grew up

and got in the fight.

[EFerrari]

15. No, you really can't say that unless all you were after was aggrandizing

an establishment that only fields change but never originates it.

/spelling

[mkultra]

20. The descriptions put forth makes no distinction regarding values.

he described the split as "tactical" rather than ideological or values-based.

And action liberal and a movement liberal can have the exact same values yet use different methods to achieve them. Many of the best progressive leaders have been both action and movement based. Ghandi and MLK are two good examples of people that mixed movement based activities and action based activities.

[EFerrari]

22. He described the split as tactical and then proceeded

to insult the side he isn't on by calling them illogical dreamy idealists.

Yes, there was a value assigned to the sides.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

14. Eh hem, well, that thought did cross my mind...

but I wasn't going to go there. :D

[treestar]

17. These were the people leading the action!

They may have been inspired elsewhere, too.

Again, when did any of these figures waste time insulting others' efforts and proclaiming it just not good enough?

When did they call others cowards? When did they say they were going to quit since they did not get more than they were able to get? Or when others weren't able to get them for them?

When did MLK spend time screaming that the Democrats in Congress were cowards? Did he call LBJ a loser because the Civil Rights Act did not end all discrimination by 1966?

[EFerrari]

18. You might want to read some biographies of these people. n/t

[treestar]

29. So you can't point to a single concrete instance

Because there was none. MLK was not a whiner. He was out doing. That's what action is. He did not give up. He was still going after the Civil Rights Act - still taking action. Not sitting around whining that the Civil Rights Act was not enough (which is was not - discrimination continues on today).

[EFerrari]

30. Read something. There's a library shelf full, at least, of information

for you to read about these people. And Martin certainly complained to his closest people just as he upbraided the status quo in his speeches. Good grief.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

23. Good lord, you really aren't getting it are you.

These are all people who created and particpated in a MOVEMENT. You know, the one's Alter says are nice and all but don't get anything really accomplished like his so-called "action" folks.

Alter's framing is BULLSHIT.

[treestar]

28. I do get it

So quit trying that one. They were not the ones who "envisioned" the perfect world. They kept working at it. They took action. Others probably criticized them as not getting enough done.

[EFerrari]

31. LOL. Right. Martin didn't have a dream. That was just a rumor!

[JoePhilly]

21. What was Kerry's vote on the Healthcare Bill? Finance reform?

Iraq war?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

25. His IWR vote was shit --

-- I do know that. I included him here primarily for his work with the Vietnam war. Perhaps the IWR vote is what happens wehn you stop beihng a "movement liberal" and instead turn to being an "action liberal". :D :evilgrin:

[JoePhilly]

27. Guess you missed my point.

Kerry voted for the Iraq war resolution.

Kerry voted for the HCR bill.

Kerry voted for the Finance reform bill.

Maybe we should primary him??

[Hell Hath No Fury]

32. If he has stopped representing the people of Mass --

to their satisfaction, I certainly hope they do primary him. :shrug:

[JoePhilly]

34. So you won't be complaining about "blue dogs" ..... right?

After all ... they are just representing the people of their state or district ... right?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

38. They certainly represent --

some in their States or districts. But I believe an old fashioned populist liberal like Paul Wellstone would do just as well in many of those areas, given half a chance and a proper ($$$$) backing from the Party.

[politicasista]

40. Yep, people call him a corporatist all the time. A liberal,

but not good enough for some.

[EFerrari]

6. Exactly.

LOL

[Hell Hath No Fury]

9. Way to miss the point, eh??

:rofl: That one whizzed right over their head. :crazy:

[polichick]

2. Thanks for posting...

Movement liberals are far more inspiring than the Democratic Party these days - 'course, that's probably always been true.

k&r

[Hell Hath No Fury]

7. Frankly, I'm just made ill by Alter's take --

about supposed "movement liberals". :puke: Every one of those I posted were idealogues who took ACTION and created CHANGE -- not a dreamy-eyed, navel-gazer among them.

[polichick]

13. I know what ya mean - Alter often makes me ill. nt

[EFerrari]

5. You betchurass.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

11. Excellent additions --

It is always MOVEMENT that creates the ACTION, otherwise there only remains inertia.

[xchrom]

8. Recommend

[blondeatlast]

16. Without passion, there can be no action. Even if some on DU are just passionate

about not letting the RW take over the country--I swear I don't get why that damn poll.

The conflict is ridiculous--we're all BOTHand I'm surprised at how few DUers chose "Other" in that gawddamned designed-to-be-divisive poll.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

19. Agreed -- both must take place.

I chose "movement" just because Alter's framing of the terms "movement" and "action" pissed me off. :D

[Greyhound]

24. You know you've crossed into Crazytown when Gandhi, Milk, MLK, Kerry, etc.

are unrec'd by "some mysterious faction that we can't really identify nor confront".
:eyes: but also :rofl:
:kick: & R

[EFerrari]

26. No kidding!

lol

[polichick]

35. You said it - Crazytown indeed! nt

[leftstreet]

33. K&R

[MisterP]

36. Jonathan Alter, "Time To Think About Torture,"

http://www.newsweek.com/2001/11/04/time-to-think-about-torture.html
typical Establishment "liberal," something bad happens and the first thing his mind turns to is out-Nixoning Nixon, to the point of going Freisler

like all those slags saying we had to invade the whole ME to bring them the blessings of liberalism (even if Bush was an imperfect vehicle)

they would've been right alongside McCarthy in the 40s and 50s--except that they saw him as too embarrassing to the glorious cause of purging the nation of anything Red or Pink

[readmoreoften]

37. Is that why he tortured us with his beyond idiotic "liberal" analysis?

It was like something on a Facebook quiz. Complete absurdity.