If DADT does come before Congress in the coming lame-duck

[pnwmom]

session, even though we have majorities in the House and Senate, we will need at least a couple Republican Senate votes to overcome a filibuster.

What do you think about GLBT groups threatening to out gay House and Senate members who vote against repeal? Is that beyond the pale of acceptable ethical behavior?

[JuniperLea]

1. Isn't that like shooting oneself in the foot?

Jeez... ugly never got anyone anywhere. Beyond the pale, indeed.

[pnwmom]

2. That's what I'm not sure about. If we had another Senator Craig

in the Congress? Who was closeted and voting against GLBT issues?

What good is it to the GLBT community to have GLBT members of Congress who routinely vote against their own issues?

[JuniperLea]

5. I'm really against outting at all...

It's no one's business, really, and outting is just plain mean.

[RKP5637]

11. +1000 +++ n/t

[dsc]

14. not in this case

This would be no different than voting for a minimum wage and then paying your employees a penny a day. Would anyone seriously argue that pointing out that a person was doing that was being mean?

[JuniperLea]

21. Not a good comparison...

Outing isn't even in the same deck, let alone game. Unless you're saying it's against the law to be gay.

We're talking about a seriously private issue here, and I have a great deal of respect for those who don't want their privacy shattered. How would you feel if you outed one of these idiots and they killed themselves over it?

[dsc]

24. It is against the law to be gay in the military

To take two examples, both Lindsey Graham and Mark Kirk are rumored to be gay and are both in the military reserves. If indeed they are breaking a law that they are voting for, it is hypocrisy and surely our business.

[JuniperLea]

25. I think this sort of talk is nothing short of vile and disgusting...

Truly disgusting.

You lose the upper hand when you take such a slimy tact, seriously. How do you fight for and against the same issue? I find that appalling.

[dsc]

28. It is disgusting to ask that those who make the laws actually, god forbid, obey them

Give me an ever loving break. Now I am not saying we should say Graham is gay if he isn't. But if he is, and he is serving in the military reserves, while he provides the tiebreaking vote to keep that policy, then I fail to see why he shouldn't be forced to obey the law he wants Dan Choi to obey.

[JuniperLea]

51. That's blackmail... it's bullying... and it makes you as bad as they are... eom

[dsc]

63. No it isn't

It is making the law apply equally. Having a class of lawmakers who are immune from the laws from the laws they pass is the definition of dictatorship.

[pnwmom]

38. But isn't it also vile when people use the closet

as a hiding place from which they can shoot people who are out in the open?

[JuniperLea]

47. Of course, but becoming what you hate

is the ultimate hypocrisy.

[DURHAM D]

17. Really?

You think someone who has made their political bones by constantly trashing gays and voting against our issues should be allowed to continue in that vain if they, themselves, are gay?

It is definitely my business if they are hypocrites.

I disagree with you 1000%.

[JuniperLea]

22. How would you feel if you outed them...

And they killed themselves. Is being gay against the law now?

I'm sooo very against this. It's nobody's goddamn business.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

53. And this bit is pure bullshit, and it's very insulting too...

"And this "It's nobody's goddamn business" indicates to me that you personally think there is something "wrong" with being gay. Something to be ashamed of. Well, then I know what you think of me - like I have something "wrong" with me and I should be ashamed. I am not. Sorry to disappoint."

That is pretty fucking disgusting. Everyone has the right to tell or not tell anyone they choose. There are many reasons someone might have NOT to tell... perhaps they have family members who would freak out... you have no idea where every single gay person's head is at, or what their life is like, or what their feelings are on the matter. It's not that easy for everyone. Show a little fucking compassion for fuck's sake!!

[QC]

33. Are you gay? n/t

[JuniperLea]

50. Vulgar is vulgar...

Becoming what you hate is hypocrisy. Blackmail is evil, wrong, and vile. Blackmail that bullies someone for being a bully is the epitome of vulgar. It makes no difference what a person's orientation is... wrong is wrong, vulgar is vulgar, and blackmail is blackmail.

[DURHAM D]

60. You have zero understanding of the issue of outing .

You won't recognize that it has two parts - (1)being a closeted homosexual (2) using homophobia to advance your own position/career/life.

(1) You are only arguing about the right to remain closeted. It is a given that you, or anyone, has the right. Obviously this is a personal issue for you. I could care less if you are in the closet.

(2) But, I care like hell if you are hiding your homosexuality and then advancing yourself or harming others because of theirs.

I am finished discussing your ignorant or willfully blind one-legged setup.

[JuniperLea]

62. You don't have the right to foist your beliefs about this upon anyone else..

You have no clue how much I know about this.

Your opinion is clearly NOT shared by the entire gay community... not even here.

[Sweet Charming Dem]

45. You know what's "just plain mean?"

Being a hypocrite and denying people their civil rights.

That's "just plain mean."

I have no sympathy for bigots and hypocrites.

[JuniperLea]

54. So you'd rather result to bullying and blackmail... what the fuck ever...

Becoming what you hate is the ultimate hypocrisy.

[ampad]

19. I'm torn on this

On one hand outing them will not get legislation passed. They will probably keep denying it and move further to the right on the issue. At the most, if they are caught in the act, they will not seek re-election. On the other hand, why should they be allowed to hide and at the same time vote against civil rights? I believe that hiding is different than being in the closet. Gay elected officials that cry the loudest about marriage being between a woman and man are probably crying the loudest because they are putting on a front. They are trying to throw the public off about who they really are.

[JuniperLea]

23. Being gay isn't illegal...

They aren't breaking any laws. It's wrong, it's immoral, but you can't legislate morality.

[DURHAM D]

30. Good God - ITS THE HYPOCRISY STUPID! NT

[JuniperLea]

57. Becoming what you hate is the ultimate hypocrisy...

Blackmail and bullying because "the end justifies the means" makes you worse than they are, IMHO.

[dsc]

3. It is only beyond the pale if you think that those who make the laws

shouldn't have to live by them. That is fundamental to democracy.

[xchrom]

4. Bwahahaha!! One of the weirder 'concerned' OPz. Nt

[Sweet Charming Dem]

7. +1

[HughMoran]

26. Glad we can discuss this as grown-ups.

:think:

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

35. If the answer is obvious to you, then why not answer? n/t

[Sweet Charming Dem]

6. Isn't Larry Flynt already planning this?

[howaboutme]

8. Something to think about

There are several issues that the political shills adore using to distract most Americans from just how badly we are all being screwed by the elite.

They use these talking points because they keep us fighting amongst ourselves. Examples are DADT, gay marriage, abortion, Muslim mosque near the WTCs, and the eternal war on terror...all of this while the elite plunder us and put the nation into debt and enrich their special CEO friends and financiers of Wall Street with huge bonuses.

[JuniperLea]

13. You're right, of course...

That's why none of those things ever get "fixed" in a permanent manner. Abortion, immigration... all trotted out for the election cycle.

I really hate it when I lose sight of this basic fact. Thanks for the reminder.

[pnwmom]

39. The Civil Rights Act hasn't yet been rescinded.

We need something as strong as that.

[JuniperLea]

55. That's my thought, exactly...

Oh, it may be trotted out as a wedge issue during election cycles (you know how "they" love to use hate as a unifying force), like abortion has, but I'm not expecting anything to actually change in that regard either.

A band-aid isn't going to stick.

[RKP5637]

15. So true, and Americans are screwed because so many choose to be

so damn ignorant, proud of it and are such damn fools they do the bidding of their corporate and wealthy elite masters, and say thank you.

[pnwmom]

36. So -- about the issue at hand. The repeal of the DADT.

Do we just ignore it because the "masters" are using it?

[RKP5637]

44. No, we have to keep fighting for the repeal of DADT, like with most civil rights that are

an uphill battle to obtain. There are so damn many obnoxious people in this country that are so selfish and are control freaks that appear to want to suppress everyone except those that share their same selfish little-mind views.

[Motown_Johnny]

9. maybe this is why the Log Cabin Republicans took point on this

[Proud Liberal Dem]

46. In the courts maybe

but in Congress, what exactly are they doing to help get DADT permanently repealed? The only thing that I heard (here) is that they were confident that a repeal could've passed if they Democrats had played nicer with the Republicans about the vote. Surely, they can sway a couple Republican votes and let it come up for a vote (and permanent repeal), right? Right? :shrug:

[RKP5637]

10. Sounds akin to blackmail. n/t

[MineralMan]

12. Actually, I think it will be easier for a few Republicans to

vote for DADT as part of the appropriations bill after the election. The electorate has very short memories, so they may not be as concerned about holding their office after this election. That's just a thought, but it has happened before.

[backscatter712]

16. Yeah, it's possible.

The theory I've heard floating around is that the current delays to the repeal of DADT is due to the kabuki theater going about its repeal. The military wanted a few months to "do its survey" and figure out all the bureaucratic stuff involved in getting rid of DADT. The Senate wanted cover until after the election.

So I'll wait and see. We very well might get an actual DADT repeal in December. I hope so. If we don't, then the best recourse is the courts.

[MineralMan]

20. Yup. We'll see. I never count anything until it's actually happened.

I'm hopeful, but cautiously.

[napi21]

18. I think any vote in the LD session will depend on the military report

that is due early Dec. IF, and I think it's a pretty sure guess, the report is positive in favor of eliminating DADT, there will surely be quite a # of lame ducks who have no reason to play games anymore and likely will vote in favor of abolishing the DADT law. They've got noeason to worry about geting elected or obeying their leader no matter what side they're on.

[Tx4obama]

27. The wording of the provision of DADT repeal in the Defense Appropriations bill ....

is written in a way that it is supposed to be vote upon BEFORE the report comes out in December.
The way I've heard it there will be a vote in the Senate in November when the senators come back after the elections.

[napi21]

40. Why the hell would they word it that way? Just s an example,

McNuts said he won't vote until he hears from the heads of the military/ If they say do away with it he will vote yes.

The other thing I keep hearing is that the report is suppose to be the military's plan of how to ipleent gays into the ilitary not wether to keep it or not. I swear, this congress could screw up the proverbal one car funeral.

[Radical Activist]

31. It's legit.

There has been a lot of debate about that issue. I think outing politicians with anti-gay voting records is justified.

However, it may not be necessary. There were a few Republicans, like Snowe, who made the cowardly claim that they voted No for purely procedural reasons. That's total bullshit, but they may act differently after the election.

[donheld]

34. How is outing Lindsey Graham gonna help?

[pnwmom]

37. You think he would rather be outed than vote for repeal? n/t

[dsc]

43. by making him live by the same law he wants gay servicemen to live by

ie to make him quit the military.

[donco6]

64. Schadenfreude is nice sometimes.

And if that's all we get - well, it'll be more than usual.

[Bluebear]

41. 'Is that beyond the pale of acceptable ethical behavior?' - what do YOU think?

[pnwmom]

42. I have mixed feelings. That's why I'm asking. n/t

[bigwillq]

49. I am not a fan of outing anyone

Yes, I think it's hypocritical for gay politicians to vote against gay rights, but no one should be outed for it.
Coming out was a very difficult decision for me (glad I did it), and I'm sure it was for many other people, as well.
I would never want anybody to out before I was ready to out myself.

[JuniperLea]

59. Thank you for this...

Apparently I'm a homophobe for suggesting this because I'm not gay. So sad.

I know many people who had a very difficult time with their own coming out... forcing this upon someone is about as ugly as it gets. It's bullying, and it's blackmail... and someone up-thread actually said they didn't care at all if someone was outed and killed themselves for it.

I don't know what's going on here, but it really breaks my heart.

[donco6]

52. Leave it to pnwmom to question the ethics of the gays.

You're a P.E.A.C.H.! Hugs!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

56. It's not going to happen.

There aren't enough Democrats let alone GOPers who will vote to repeal it.

As for outing gay/lesbian Congresscritters who vote aganst LGBT issues? Out every fucking one of them, whichever Party they belong to.

[VMI Dem]

58. DADT is here to stay.

I would guess at least through 2016.

[Bluebear]

65. Hey, it was struck down for what, 4 days?

Be a grateful little gay.

[joeybee12]

61. No, not at all...screw 'em...n/t