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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:34 PM
Original message
Now We Know


Former President George W. Bush and former White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolton,
following a meeting with senior military leaders.
(Image: Lance Page / t r u t h o u t; Adapted: Marion Doss / Flickr)


Now We Know
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Op-Ed

Wednesday 27 October 2010

I've been writing about the war in Iraq for going on ten years now. My first words on the subject were published eight months before the invasion was undertaken, and the war has been a grim drumbeat in my work ever since. I've been thinking a lot lately about those writers who were tasked to cover the war in Vietnam. After ten years chronicling the same grim topic, did they wish for a day when they could write about something else, finally? I know I do. Iraq has been like a tumor in my mind, always there, always growing, and by all appearances totally inoperable and incurable.

My job over this last decade was to hammer home the fact that the rhetorical preamble to the invasion, the invasion itself, and the occupation were and remain bullshit of the purest ray serene. George W. Bush and his pack of thugs used September 11 against the American people to frighten them into supporting an unnecessary, costly and ultimately criminal war. They lied about weapons of mass destruction, they lied about al Qaeda working with Iraq, they lied about virtually every aspect of the conflict, and they got what they wanted: a big, fat payday and an excuse to bulldoze our constitutional rights.

I knew all this was true, down to the detail, and over time that truth became self-evident to a majority of Americans. The perpetrators of this massive criminal enterprise stuck to their stories all the way down the line, and ultimately paid for it in 2006 and 2008, but the echo of their efforts resonates to this very day.

I knew the truth, but always lacked the smoking-gun proof that could lay it all bare. There were pieces here and there - the "Downing Street Memo" document revelation showing Bush and Blair's decision, made the April before the invasion, to use false WMD "evidence" to gin up support for an attack being the most prominent - but a full-scale snapshot of the entire deception always remained just out of reach.

Until now.

The release by Wikileaks of some 400,000 pages of official Iraq war documents has ripped the lid finally and forever off what must surely become known as one of the largest lawless actions by a presidential administration in all of American history. The documents prove, beyond all doubt, that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice and the rest of them deliberately led this nation down a nearly-unprecedented path of infamy. The only comparable criminal act was the grindhouse of Vietnam, which spanned five presidencies, left millions dead and enshrined the so-called "defense" industry as the biggest money players in the American political game. What was done in and to Iraq has not yet risen to the level of what happened in Southeast Asia, but it is right up there, and the Wikileaks documents hammer this fact home with no remorse and no room left for doubt.

They knew the WMD threat was false. They knew that al Qaeda was nowhere in Iraq until more than a year after the invasion had taken place, and that it was the invasion which gave al Qaeda the opportunity to kill Americans without having to board an airplane. They knew that torture and murder were widespread and unpunished. They knew civilians were being butchered wholesale. They knew the "independent contractor" mercenaries were completely out of control. They knew that Iran became the principal beneficiary of our "war for freedom." Hell, Rumsfeld's best chum, Ahmed Chalabi, became a paid player for Iran years ago, even as the Bush administration allowed him to burrow into the Iraqi government.

They knew this and more, and beyond all doubt, now we know, too.

It is not fashionable within the circle of Washington "elites," both in the media and in government, to take part in anything that resembles "looking backward" or "re-litigating the past," or whatever euphemism currently passes for seeking accountability. There was plenty of evidence before Wikileaks came along to undertake a comprehensive prosecution of any and all who were involved in the murderous fraud that was and is the war in Iraq, but it was never done. With the arrival of these 400,000 new pages, however, a new urgency must be injected into the argument.

They knew, and now we have the proof. They lied, they stole, they murdered by the tens and tens of thousands, and if there is no accountability for crimes of such scope and breadth, then ours is a doomed and eternally discredited nation. Mr. Obama's Department of Justice has officially run out of excuses for not pursuing criminal action against the previous administration and all the players involved. The criminal acts were documented, in meticulous detail, and those facts are now in the public eye for all to see.

They can't deny it anymore. They can't hide behind ramped-up rhetoric or media malingering. They knew, and now we know, and if prosecutions are not undertaken, then justice has no meaning, and Mr. Obama's administration has no honor.

http://www.truth-out.org/now-we-know64540
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. k n r
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.
 
The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. The unofficial-official word about the Wikileaks is that there is "nothing new"
there the media reported all of this stuff, and that essentailly, nobody cares.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
92. Bush/Cheney,Rumsfeld,Rove and Rice are all guilty beyond doubt. A trial is just formallity
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. Its already been proven so the question is not about guilt, it's about punishment now.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. In America the guilty run free if they have money or political power.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. Known as "the great American Hypocrisy" where 'free' people are powerless to hold them accountable
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. These people should be afraid to leave their houses fearing retribution for war crimes.
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Poboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. "and if prosecutions are not undertaken, then justice has no meaning, and Mr. Obama's administration
Edited on Wed Oct-27-10 12:44 PM by Poboy
"and if prosecutions are not undertaken, then justice has no meaning, and Mr. Obama's administration has no honor."


Prepare to assemble your verbiage on how he has no honor then. This is your trip-wire, mine was the health care flim-flam swindle.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Expect pardons to follow shortly.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.
 
Drops_not_Dope Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. I can name that tune in 3 words
William Pitt is much more eloquent though. I'll allow him time to prepare, then we can compare notes.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
105. Health care was mine too
Before that was the credit card flim-flam and after it was the quote/endquote financial reform (aka flim-flam).

I've been smacked in the head so many times by the Obama administration that I don't want to even THINK the word "hope" ever again. I now know that I've always loved Big Brother, can I have my bullet now, please?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. Very good.
Recommended.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. K & R
:thumbsup:
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. They belong in jail n/t
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
53. They ALL belong in jail
Every damn one who knew it was a bogus invasion, everyone who covered it up, and everyone who fails to bring them to justice. They are all complicit.

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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. These leaks were common truths that the Justice Dept never looked for
Edited on Wed Oct-27-10 12:57 PM by Ichingcarpenter
If that tells 'us' anything.


I knew a long time ago,
'We,' I think you might include the unknowing, not caring and who it may concern,
but no Me.

Nominated your great writing and hope the world will take notice.
I doubt the US will.
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SusanaMontana41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. Lots of us knew
but nobody would listen.

Thanks, Will, for your excellent work and eloquence. Glad you're here.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
67. Without Rule of Law there can be only
endless night.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. Congress? President Obama? Are you listening?
K&R, Will.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. President Obama...
Some things ARE absolute.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
89. Obama is continuing more of the same.
Edited on Thu Oct-28-10 12:41 AM by ThomCat
He's not going to do anything.

Except ramp up efforts to shut down wikileaks.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. I just saw this as a breaking story on CNN and FOX
Edited on Wed Oct-27-10 12:56 PM by progressoid
And they are discussing it on the Senate floor.

Oh, wait...

Never mind. That was just another hallucination.
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N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. I watched, did not believe
the WMD accusations. I told my wife, "They better just plant one, it'll save a lot of embarrassment."

Too stupid to do even what a everyday person could figure out.

There will be no prosecutions, there will be no accounting, there will be no apologies. Bet me!
This is the New American Way.

The Corporate powers will not allow it, Obama will bow to those powers as he has in his recent past.

"Nothing to see here folks", he says, "Just go home."

At least we are not being told to go shopping.
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
40. Remember the flash that Will Smith's character used in Men in Black?
We will not be moved to action to hold those betraying our country and we will vote republican.....

Too bad for them that it doesn't work on us....OR does it?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
74. Evidently ....
they did try to plant WMD on two different occasions --

From what I've read, they lost 75 men in the first try --

and second attempt was another fizzle --



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onlyadream Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
104. I thought, for sure, they'd plant evidence too
and couldn't understand why they didn't (are they really that stupid?). The way they rushed in without letting the inspectors do their job had intent written all over it. To me it just "felt" wrong, like they were pushing their agenda. This was before I started paying attention.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. A lot of these criminals got there start in the Nixon admistration.
They weren't stopped then or later, they weren't stopped under Reagan, or under Bush the Elder. They have crawled into every locus of power in our government. It's an even bet whether they can be stopped at all now.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
13. That would be a good bi-partisan issue to get started with...
investigate and prosecute these criminals. Get the Attorney General on the ball immediately. Request Republican assistance.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Count on AG Holder to get right on it
;)
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. If this administration finds they do not need to charge
them with war crimes and treason
then that will be the straw that breaks my back
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. I can recommend a good neuro-surgeon as likely will be needed
;)
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Thank you for the offer
I truly hope someone finally wakes up and
decides to do the right thing for this country

Otherwise the violence in this country will
only increase
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. "if prosecutions are not undertaken, then justice has no meaning"
True. Probability? .10
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. This is no longer popular to talk about,
and that you're doing it anyway earns a rec from me. Fantastic writing as well. K&R
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. k&r n/t
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
18. We'll never be rid of this until we prosecute. But we'll never prosecute until we STOP.

Gitmo is still holding secret people on secret charges for secret reasons.

The CIA is still conducting illegal targeted killings in Pakistan. We are opening a front for a THIRD neverending Middle Eastern war there.

Our leadership still advocates the use of State Secrets doctrine, not to protect the country from enemies, but to shield the government from embarrassment for wrongdoing. And it now claims the right to target U.S. citizens for murder without due process.

We cannot hold on to little bits and pieces of the criminal Bush legacy in the belief that they can somehow be used for good.

It's about time we recognize that the real reason we are not pursuing these people and prosecuting these crimes is because not everyone is ready to come back from Cheney's "dark side" and insist that the U.S. start behaving like a civilized nation. There's too much money to be made and too much power to give up. It's not that we don't recognize what happened. It's not that we don't know how wrong it was. It's that we can't seem to reach a consensus that the United States must stop behaving like a rogue nation.

We are corrupted and we are NEVER coming back unless and until we stop what we are doing in the Middle East and with this bullshit "war on terror" and the wholesale disregard of human and Constitutional rights and the rule of law and our international agreements on the ethical conduct of war.

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tiny elvis Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
59. no american was ever prosecuted for authoring a successful campaign
i doubt that any leader in the world has been prosecuted by his own gov for military success
all party leaders have always said that the mission can succeed and now say that it is succeeding
there is no question whether one party will prosecute the other
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #59
78. That what you see is success, is the measure of your delusion.
Pug talking points get better applause on other sights where Fux is the arbiter of "truth".
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #59
102. Then this should be 'a slam dunk' as someone once told Bush.
Both wars have been failures of embarrassing proportions considering this is supposedly the most powerful nation in the world and they invaded countries that were basically unarmed.

Aside from the crimes committed, starting with the lies that got us into them, being unable to defeat two unarmed, poverty stricken countries in nearly ten years, has seriously weakened this country's image around the world.

Before these travesties, the U.S. didn't HAVE to invade, they only had to threaten and no one wanted to risk being attacked and annihilated in 'a matter of months' as Rumsfeld infamously claimed would happen in Iraq. And some people believed that.

Now, the world sees that the power that was once so feared, can be dragged into a quagmire for years and years, draining the treasury and weakening the military.

But worst of all, the world sees the U.S. as no better than other bullying Empire that history will record as brutal, unethical and untrustworthy.

They perpetrators of this great crime against humanity, may not be prosecuted in this country, but hopefully other countries will do their duty and start proceedings against these criminals.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #59
113. What "success," though? We've gained nothing.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #59
129. The only success we've seen out of this is the killing of a dictator
who had not offended us.

That success?
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N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. Justice has no meaning ...
Look through recent history starting with the Gulf Oil Disaster. Corporate powers will never be able to be held accountable.

No matter who is in office, Obama or Xbid, they will see soon into their service, (if not know before) they will not command, but follow.

These wars were orchestrated by the Trilateral Commission or like organization. Nothing political, just business, just profits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilateral_Commission

http://www.augustreview.com/news_commentary/trilateral_commission/obama:_trilateral_commission_endgame_20090127110/

I am reading "Collapse" by Jared Diamond, getting along into the first chapter, I am astounded by how the Corporations that
own the mining industry are able to just walk away, leaving us holding the receipts of disaster.

I "knew", but I really didn't know. I was aware.

Globalization is a reality in America, we refuse to address the point. It's easier to "Buy American".

Government is rapidly taking on the aspects of Corporations, "We will just walk away, We will just look to the future, not dwell on the past."

Who holds the effects of their actions? It dissolves into bitterness, it seeps into our pores, will it only affect those walked away from?

"Justice" has never come into play with Corporations, with the elite.

Why should it now?

We are chasing the Holy Grail.

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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. I knew but K&R
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affrayer Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. What does it matter?
You can argue until you're blue in the face. You can throw reams of material in the unbelievers faces and it won't make a bit of difference. Why? Because you're dealing with "true believers" and not thinking, rational human beings.

There are several instances where Bush Jr demanded intel to support his desire to invade Iraq. We even have him on tape saying he wanted to get Saddam because he tried to kill his daddy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC5dfneoHcE

This turned out unproven...but it don't matter, people believe.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. They KNEW.
Edited on Wed Oct-27-10 03:34 PM by bvar22
Most of us at DU KNEW,

"and Mr. Obama's administration has no honor."

Protecting War Criminals IS a War Crime.
Investigation and Prosecution is NOT optional.
We are BOUND by several treaties to do so.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. +1000 bvar22, But Unfortunately "Our" Voices Have Been Vetoed...
LOOK FORWARD, NOT BACK! I DO realize that it's about JOBS, but I sincerely feel a monumental mistake has been made by this Administration and a Democratic Congress by not prosecuting OBVIOUS crimes.

Is there a statute of limitations that applies on this? I wonder. Still, it probably doesn't matter because THEY, the ones who committed the crimes, aren't going to be prosecuted! And that may also be a crime within itself by being complicit with what went on.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. Unfortunately,
Turning a blind eye to War Crimes and protecting War Criminals/Profiteers WILL be one of the lasting legacies of the Obama administration.
History will not be kind.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
63. Nor Should It Be... For Me It's One Of The BIGGEST Betrayals Of Our
so called Democracy, at least in my lifetime. And I simply don't know how any real citizen of this country can stand by and condone any efforts made by those trying to rationalize why they DO NOTHING.

Given that we actually sentence people to years in prison for having small amounts of pot, but then turn a blind eye to the actual killing of innocent people.

I will never forget this time in history myself. There are no words or EXCUSES for what we see happening, and still call this a real Democracy.

JMHO!
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
88. Congress knew and they let us down. So much for a representative government. American
Democracy is dead with no hope for revival. Time for the next phase.
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tripfeiff Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #88
97. So what is next then?
What is the "next phase" and how do you suggest it be implemented?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #97
133. The next phase is the Great Depression II. The American people wont fight back until they are
paupers. Every day more and more America is being purchased by China, India, Russia and Saudi Arabia. And it will accelerate when the Republicans take power back. Pres Obama has slowed the bleeding but the patient is still dying.

This doesnt mean I am going to give in. Just stating my opinion.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #97
135. have big strikes and demonstrations demanding persecution
like we do in france, greece, spain....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #88
98. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
24. K&R. Continuing an immoral and unconstitutional war policy is dishonorable. n/t
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. Since Bush v Gore, justice
has become only a word. And as a result we are watching the country disintegrate. Horrible. I ask you, what greater crime is there than torture? Maybe lying a country into the war in Iraq is a greater crime than torture, maybe. The players in the Bush Administration should be in prison that is for damn certain.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. Thanks! Up to Noodle Brain News for eternity!
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lastone Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. ... justice has no meaning, and Mr. Obama's administration has no honor.
I wholeheartedly agree, I can not imagine - or better said - dream of a better scenario where the full weight of the US Dept of Justice should be leveled against these war criminals. We live in utterly astonishing times and unless you are uber-wealthy you are, in the end, a pawn to a pawn.

UN calls on Obama to investigate Iraq abuses:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/23/united-nations-call-obama-investigation-abuses-iraq

... and as a side note, I followed the youtube link to see war criminal #1 and it made me sick to my stomach. that fucking man should be in jail.
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Bill_Kelleher Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
51. Quotes from the Guardian

The UN has called on Barack Obama to order a full investigation of US forces' involvement in human rights abuses in Iraq after a massive leak of military documents that detail torture, summary executions and war crimes.

The call by the UN's chief investigator on torture, Manfred Nowak

Nowak said that if the files released through WikiLeaks pointed to clear violations of the UN Convention Against Torture the Obama administration had an obligation to investigate them.

A failure to investigate, Nowak suggested, would be a failure of the Obama government to recognise its obligations under international law.

Nowak said it would be up to the Obama administration to launch an "independent and objective" investigation with a view not only to "bring the perpetrators to justice but also to provide the victims with adequate remedy and reparation".
He noted that neither the US nor Iraq had ratified the international criminal convention that would see officials from either country brought before the international courts for war crimes. It would be up to the US courts to determine whether US officials or soldiers had breached human rights laws.

"If it is established that a particular individual is responsible for torture directly or by complicity, this person should be brought to justice in the domestic courts," Nowak said.

Phil Shiner, human rights specialist at Public Interest Lawyers in the UK, warned that some of the deaths documented in the Iraq war logs could have involved British forces and would be pursued through the UK courts.
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jtrockville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. and justice for all
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
32. Sent them to The Hague. nt
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
33. DEMAND JUSTICE!
And never give up.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
36. Sadly, the Obama Justice Department seems to seek only new reasons
Edited on Wed Oct-27-10 05:00 PM by stopbush
to not prosecute members of the previous administration for overt and innumerable war crimes, while at the same time, hopeful Rs are salivating at the thought of regaining control of the House, for no other reason than to impeach another sitting D president, this time, on the charge that he is black.

Go figure.
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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
38. The factor which prohibits this administration from doing its duty
wrt crimes against the people of Iraq, America and the U.S. Constitution is how bad it's going to make his VP, SoS and other leading Dems look who also knew better but didn't stand up.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
39. "A murderous fraud"--what an incredibly apt description of the Iraq war.
A lot of us have known that from the beginning, but now it's impossible NOT to know, no matter how hard you try.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
41. absolutely spot on. especially the last paragraph.
thank you, mr. pitt.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
42. I don't think I've ever been prouder to recommend a DU post....
Thank you, Mr. Pitt. This might be one of your best pieces, ever.
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
43. Two tours in Iraq, one in Afghanistan, my nephew came home
put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. Murderous fraud indeed and not a shred of honor.
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #43
107. Oh Autumn, I am so sorry
What a tragedy. Three tours in hell. I hope he is at peace and the murderous bastards who sent him on three tours finally have to pay for what they've done.

:cry: :hug:
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. He was just 23 years old
joined the Army right after he graduated. They will never pay and it will happen again and again.
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #109
115. Sadly, I agree
They won't pay and it will happen again and again.
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #115
136. It's too late to
make a correction MissDeeds, He was 25. My darn arthritic fingers.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #43
118. I'm sorry to hear that.
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #118
128. The Army has awarded 17 million dollars
to study American soldiers and veterans suicides, it doesn't take a study to know why. Maybe some justice would help the soldiers who are suffering.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
122. I am so sorry.
:cry:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
45. K&R. (nt)
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
48. I see this as a long list of We The People abuse by a really small number
of people who really, really don't care about human life or value peace over warmongering. If nothing ever comes from this, then our Democracy is a lie and we live in a Plutocracy in name and blood.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
49. k&r
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Bill_Kelleher Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
50. How to Put Bush on Trial
I am in favor of putting Bush et al on trial, in the hopes of seeing him and his aides behind bars. Its the only way to restore respect for human rights in the US gov.

I only know two ways this can be done. Either Obama orders his AG to charge Bush with war crimes and violations of US law; or, the ICC tries him.

But Obama has turned out to be such a corporate lap dog that I have no expectation of him doing what every progressive knows is right. And who would bring a case against Bush in the ICC?

"How to Put Bush on Trial," that is the question!

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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #50
101. May 6, 2002: US Withdraws from International Criminal Court Statute
May 6, 2002: US Withdraws from International Criminal Court Statute

The Bush administration formally withdraws the United States from the International Criminal Court (ICC). In a letter to Secretary-General of the UN Kofi Annan, US Undersecretary of State for Arms Control John Bolton writes: “This is to inform you, in connection with the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court adopted on July 17, 1998, that the United States does not intend to become a party to the treaty. Accordingly, the United States has no legal obligations arising from its signature on December 31, 2000. The United States requests that its intention not to become a party, as expressed in this letter, be reflected in the depositary’s status lists relating to this treaty.”

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says, “The United States will regard as illegitimate any attempt by the court or state parties to the treaty to assert the ICC’s jurisdiction over American citizens.” The ICC dates back to the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, and serves as the world’s first and most influential war crimes tribunal. The US did not become a signatory until former President Bill Clinton’s last day in office.

Bolton’s letter serves to both withdraw the US from the Rome Statute, which established the ICC, and relieves the US of its obligations under the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. That agreement prohibits the signatories of international treaties from taking steps to undermine the treaties they sign, even if they have not ratified them.

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=us_international_relations_1792#us_international_relations_1792
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #101
123. It was a premeditated crime.
I remember when Bush did that and as many people said at the time, they were almost telling the world they planning to commit crimes.

But at that time, much as I despised Bush, I never thought this country would tolerate torture and murder and rape by our military.

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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #123
130. Shutting down the ICC was a PNAC goal. Here's a post of mine from 2 years ago:
Ghost in the Machine (1000+ posts) Fri Oct-17-08 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Follow the roads to the front door of PNAC, they wanted to kill the ICC

January 2, 2001

MEMORANDUM TO: OPINION LEADERS


FROM: GARY SCHMITT


SUBJECT: International Criminal Court

On the last day of 2000, President Clinton signed the International Criminal Court convention, a treaty which the president himself admits is flawed and which he has no intention of submitting to the Senate for its ratification. The president did so, he said, in order to put the U.S. in a position to help correct the treaty’s imperfections. But the ICC accord is not just flawed -- it is fatally flawed -- and the best policy is for the U.S. to reject the treaty simply. Without America’s participation, the ICC will die on the vine.


More than two years ago, at the conclusion of the conference in Rome which finalized the treaty’s terms, we voiced our concern that the Clinton Administration would continue to try and fix the un-fixable. As we argued then, whatever the respectable motives behind the creation of the International Criminal Court, we should not let those blind us to the fact that the preservation of a decent world order depends chiefly on the exercise of American leadership. For both geo-political and constitutional reasons, we should not be in the business of delegating that leadership or compounding the difficulties of its exercise by creating unaccountable, supra-national bodies.


We also circulated at the time a statement on the ICC made by John Bolton, vice president of the American Enterprise Institute and a Project director, before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (July 23, 1998). No major, substantive change has been made to the treaty’s terms since. Bolton’s statement still stands as a thorough and devastating critique of the proposed court. An edited version of that statement follows.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=226309

I used the link to my post so as to not give more traffic to the PNAC site, but there is a link to the PNAC site in my post, if you are interested in clicking on it..
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. Thanks, not a surprise that that gang of criminal conspirators
would oppose any kind of organization that might be interested in their criminal activities. I know at the time we pulled out, I was really frightened about what the Bush gang were about to do.

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GETPLANING Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
52. The most important thing to remember
is that the Wikileaks documents are THE PENTAGON'S OWN INTERNAL REPORTS.

The most important thing to remember as we read this article is not only do we now know, but THEY KNEW ALL ALONG.
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
54. K&R
It never ends, does it? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
55. and ?
you see anyone in a position of being able to do anything about it actually doing anything?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
56. "and if prosecutions are not undertaken, then justice has no meaning..." good luck with that
Obama already says we have to "move forward".
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disndat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
57. ..and David Kelly's Death
was ruled a suicide officially last week, now that David Cameron, a Tory is P.M. Hmm. Is there a connection? 9/11 was long in the planning since Reagan and Bush I.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
58. Who is going to turn the screw on Cheney?
If the GOP win next week say goodbye
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
60. Super post
Rec
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
61. Had Nancy Pelosi held House hearings on the Iraqi War, the Dems would own the mid-terms.
Democrats never learn from history.

Pelosi should have held hearing on the run-up to the War in Iraq and dragged Karl Rove and the gang into Congress and put them all under oath. The story would not be a Wikileaks story, it would have had the official stamp of the House of Representatives 12 months ago.

And, more to the point, the mid-terms would not even be competitive right now. We would own November 2nd.

But we played nice with murderers to our own great demise.

K&R.

And for those reading, William Rivers Pitt, was among a handful of Americans who swore up until the day of the invasion that there were zero weapons of mass destruction. I know because so did I. Read the archives here from that time.

K&R
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Cheers.
And thanks.

:hug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #71
139. madame squeaker? classy....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
65. Mr. Obama? Mr.? twice in there, and no "president"? you
mean, of course, your "snake"?

"no honor"? you judge?

wow.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
66. "if prosecutions are not undertaken, then justice has no meaning, and Mr. Obama's administration has
Edited on Wed Oct-27-10 08:02 PM by Time for change
no honor".

I pretty much agree with that, and I have pretty much agreed with it for a very long time, before the arrival of the 400 K pages.

I also believe that, judging from past actions, it is highly unlikely that the Obama administration will prosecute these crimes. I very much hope I'm wrong about that, but I doubt it very much. It would be highly "politically incorrect" for the Obama administration to prosecute these crimes, and for that reason I doubt very much that it will be done.

I have been sorely disappointed in him for a very long time.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
68. enshrined the so-called defense industry as the biggest money players in the American political game
Well said.

I am trying to find the activism to counter that all too powerful lobby. So far, I have been writing to Congress about weapons programs we should end.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
69. K & R nt
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
70. K&R I bite my tongue often before I say to my daughter ...
... "We will never see our country again."

Certainly not the one my father and his fellows kept safe for us in WWII. Or so we thought and hoped.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
72. We all know ... Obama and Holder and Gates know ... we also know they're going to do nothing -- !!
Edited on Wed Oct-27-10 09:01 PM by defendandprotect
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FailureToCommunicate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
73. "...it's off the table" That was an outrage day for 'yes we can' believers
Edited on Wed Oct-27-10 09:02 PM by FailureToCommunicate
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givemebackmycountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
75. God Will - I do admire your turn of a phrase.
"My job over this last decade was to hammer home the fact that the rhetorical preamble to the invasion, the invasion itself, and the occupation were and remain bullshit of the purest ray serene. George W. Bush and his pack of thugs used September 11 against the American people to frighten them into supporting an unnecessary, costly and ultimately criminal war. They lied about weapons of mass destruction, they lied about al Qaeda working with Iraq, they lied about virtually every aspect of the conflict, and they got what they wanted: a big, fat payday and an excuse to bulldoze our constitutional rights".

And the saddest part of this is that Obama has been busy being the "nice" guy wanting to "look forward".

The first chance these rat bastards get, they will bring HIM up on impeachment charges.
You can take that to the BANK.

If they weren't a bunch of fucking criminals too.


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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
76. The refusal to look back is a refusal to correct our mistakes. Sad times we live in.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
77. HEAR!! HEAR!! Well said. Rec. nt
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
79. I hope you or someone will point us to the quotations that prove what you say.
Edited on Wed Oct-27-10 10:12 PM by snot
I trust you enough to believe they're there; but of course, everyone needs to see them.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
80. K&R
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
81. K & R
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
82. Transcript: Vice Presidential Debate (2004)
... CHENEY: Twenty years ago we had a similar situation in El Salvador ... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/debatereferee/debate_1005.html

Repeating Errors of History
The U.S. counterinsurgency tactics used in El Salvador are at best a case study in how to prolong an insurgency, not end it. And it won't be any different in Iraq.
January 12, 2005
On Jan. 8, Newsweek revealed that the Bush administration is "intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration¹s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s." The "option" under consideration: the use of death squads to kill Iraqi insurgents ... http://www.alternet.org/world/20962/

Salvador in Iraq: Flash Back
Jonathan D. Tepperman, Former Deputy Managing Editor, Foreign Affairs
April 5, 2005
In April, when the Senate begins considering John D. Negroponte's nomination as the nation's first intelligence czar, much of the hearings are likely to focus on his role in Central America's "dirty wars" of the 1980s. Questions abound over just how much Negroponte, who was ambassador to Honduras from 1981 to 1985, knew at the time about death squads and other abuses in the region ... In resurrecting El Salvador— one of the darkest episodes in recent U.S. history— as a model of a successful counterinsurgency, the Pentagon and hawks close to the administration have relied on faulty history and wishful thinking. Contrary to conservative conventional wisdom, U.S. policy in Central America during the '80s was seriously misguided, and— other than contributing to the death of tens of thousands of civilians— ultimately ineffectual. If applied in Iraq today, the results could be even worse ... http://www.cfr.org/publication/7988/salvador_in_iraq.html

Salvador Option
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Option

Salvador option
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Salvador_option

We've known this: we've known it for years. It's been documented, and re-documented, and then documented again; we have the references and the cross-references. We can certainly continue fleshing out the picture, but it's not telling us something we didn't already know: it's merely reminding us of what we knew all too well. The struggle here to to learn the history well enough, and to be able to explain it clearly enough, that it survives in some memory, against the constant idiocy of the corporate media that would have us forget our past completely so that we learn no lessons from it
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
83. +1
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orbitalman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
84. So that's what classified secrets are for...
to HIDE the truth, and criminal activity, etc. :mad:
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
85. Outstanding, Mr. Pitt. But we've known for a long time. A long time.
The Project for the New American Century advocated for this illegal war of vanity and greed since the Presidency of Bill Clinton. It is no coincidence that the many of the members of the PNAC were part of the cheney*/bush* administration. The false and manufactured intelligence was not a coincidence. 9/11 was not a coincidence. There are no coincidences at historical junctures of these magnitudes. All things are made to transpire for a purpose. Of course they knew. They made it happen. Truth and legality be damned.
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
86. That's bullshit crazy conspiracy theory.
NOT!

thanks Will.

No Justice, No Peace.


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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-27-10 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
87. Ok so let's say that the Obama administration has no honor. Now where are we? The people of this
glorious country rooted Bush on, most knowing that there was no evidence, Congress got on their knees and bowed to the Bush king. We all know that our country is fucked, but what can we do? Voting is a joke. Participating in a corrupt system is a joke.

Nothing will be done until the middle class are literally lined up in bread lines. But by then it will be too late. In fact, it's too late now.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
90. Noam Chomsky predicted this all in "Watergate: A Skeptical View"
Written in the 1970s. A must read.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19730920.htm

Still more cynical is the current enthusiasm over the health of the American political system, as shown by the curbing of Nixon and his subordinates, or by the civilized compromise that permitted Nixon and Kissinger to kill Cambodians and destroy their land only until August 15, truly a model of how a democracy should function, with no disorder or ugly disruption.


The American public cares more about a kicked puppy than it does about third world dead.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
91. Now we know...
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
99. :::standing ovation:::

I have always hated to admit that Will is a better writer than I am. But he is.

Will Rivers Pitt, you have the power in you to inspire citizens of this Republic to love liberty and seek justice. Why some politician isn't paying you six figures to write speeches, I don't know.
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cartach Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
100. Your last sentence sums it up,
everybody knows the truth now, what's next and if nothing then we can make a couple of conclusions. I would suggest that we all know that nothing will be done and it is far past the time that people should have taken action. Justice has lost it's meaning a long time ago and it's very doubtful that the Obama administration ever had any honor in the first place. The latest revelations provide more proof but so what? Changes won't come until there are riots, and lots of them, in the streets and I've got a feeling that they're not far off.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
103. "justice has no meaning, and Mr. Obama's administration has no honor."
yup.

RL
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
106. When Obama said there would be no investigations (look forward, not backward), my heart sank
Edited on Thu Oct-28-10 07:40 AM by txlibdem
I knew what you knew, just a few years too late. For me, it was when they couldn't find the WMDs, (they trotted out an aluminum pipe and tried to claim it was something important, remember that crapola?), that was when it finally dawned on me that Iraq was all a hoax from day one. Then I started to remember a few things and pay attention a bit more.

Then our glorious leader said he would never prosecute or investigate any of their crimes. Sickening.
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The Uncola Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
108. This line sums up my thoughts on the matter:
"They can't deny it anymore. They can't hide behind ramped-up rhetoric or media malingering. They knew, and now we know, and if prosecutions are not undertaken, then justice has no meaning, and Mr. Obama's administration has no honor."

And the "team players" still have the unmitigated gall to question and denigrate me when I dare to speak up.

meh
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
110. k&r
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Ticonderoga Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
111. Accountability?
Hell we hardly even heard the MSM acknowledge this evidence exists. Obama is "one of them".
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
112. I just wish...
That the people who continually cautioned against impeachment up to and after 2006 could look me in the eye.

I recall oh so many excuses:

http://impeachforpeace.org/impeach_bush_blog/?p=11

Where are the anti-impeachment people now? Are they going to admit we were right yet? Are they going to admit we were right about Lieberman? Where are the conservadems when they are wrong?
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
114. K&R
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
116. K&R! nt
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Blue Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
117. Why is this crime unpunishable?
Considering the massive number of deaths it has brought about, the ridiculous cost involved -- it was and still is FRAUD on the highest level.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
119. But, but. We need to look forward.
We don't want to keep looking back. We need to look forward into the brave new world. After all, we've got Iran to attack. Then we can look at some oil nations in Africa.

If we go around punishing people for lying and starting wars that kill millions, what good would that do. Let's let bygones be bygones. Then maybe the republicans will like us and vote for us.
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florida08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
120. they are hiding in plain sight
because 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing' The electorate is as corrupt as the elected officials. The right has no credibility and yet people will still vote for them. Listen to how the media talks. There is no right or wrong anymore. It's about strategy..not truth and honor. Mitch McConnell's single priority is making Obama a one term president.

They are on a mission and have been to destroy democracy. You hear the tea idiots now saying they will scrutinize voters at the polls..meaning they will harass and intimidate. We have crossed the Rubicon.

We pretty much have been in a lame duck session since Obama's inauguration and it will get worse. Obama is either very naive or very scared. He has been and will be marginalized. We are, in all practical terms, a 'corporatocracy.'

Last year there were 21 groups requesting a special prosecutor for the Cheney/Bush crimes. Polls showed that most of the country wanted investigations. Kucinich introduced articles of impeachment. Even Judge Napolitano said on Fox that they should have been indicted. What we got was crickets. Democracy usurped. Now if the party of the lesser of two evils ignores the people what chance is there that the one's responsible will.

Your views are correct but the political atmosphere is one of fascism not democracy. The middle class has been marginalized by SCOTUS. The Obama administration came in with flowers of liberty..wrong move given what we'd just been through. He now is facing the dogs of hell. When Joe Wilson yelled out 'you lie' during Obama's televised speech you could see Obama was like a deer caught in the headlights. That's when I knew it was over.

Those who see will still fight on but the country has been demoralized and mistreated. Our hopes have been burned alive. It's not enough to say "we're not great but the alternative is worse" as a means of rallying the troops. Can you imagine a general going into battle saying something so ineffective? Justice without power is inefficient and power without justice is tyranny.

I don't know what Obama and Pelosi were thinking when they refused to allow justce to prevail. Although to Pelosi's credit she did not agree with Obama on the State's secrets imposition for investigating Bush/Cheney warrantless wiretaps. She also tried to form a truth commission to invesitigate the Bush years which Obama was against. So you see Obama has already obstructed justice. Don't expect that to change. The country is hurting..more evidence of lies from the last administration on Iraq is not on the radar at this juncture. It's just more of what they already know..and more chipping away of their audacity to hope and believe in change.

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The Uncola Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #120
121. Well said and sadly spot on.
There is a huge storm brewing and it isn't just from the Teabaggers. I for one, will not stand for being tyrannized nor will I settle for letting the corporations win.
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florida08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #121
127. thank you
and yes I agree. Robert Reich said the same thing:

Right now we're headed for a perfect storm: An unprecedented concentration of income and wealth at the top, a record amount of secret money flooding our democracy, and a public in the aftershock of the Great Recession becoming increasingly angry and cynical about government. The three are obviously related.

We must act. We need a movement to take back our democracy. (If tea partiers were true to their principles, they'd join it.) As Martin Luther King once said, the greatest tragedy is "not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."


http://www.readersupportednews.org/opinion2/279-82/3550-the-secret-big-money-takeover-of-america

The only thing I see that will stem it is the kind of patriotism you just evoked. The quiet majority is becoming increasingly outraged at what is happening. Many of us feel just like you do.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
124. Bookmarked for further reading. n/t
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
125. Obama is pretending it's got nothing to do with him.
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
126. "Justice has no meaning and Mr. Obama's administration
has no honor" seeking either is a fools errand.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
132. Why haven't you posted the ladybug story here yet, Will????
:puke:
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-28-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #132
134. This is where I found it.
It's around here somewhere.

And yeah, :puke:
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Panaconda Donating Member (672 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
137. Bumping

They knew, and now we have the proof. They lied, they stole, they murdered by the tens and tens of thousands, and if there is no accountability for crimes of such scope and breadth, then ours is a doomed and eternally discredited nation. Mr. Obama's Department of Justice has officially run out of excuses for not pursuing criminal action against the previous administration and all the players involved. The criminal acts were documented, in meticulous detail, and those facts are now in the public eye for all to see.

They can't deny it anymore. They can't hide behind ramped-up rhetoric or media malingering. They knew, and now we know, and if prosecutions are not undertaken, then justice has no meaning, and Mr. Obama's administration has no honor.
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B3Nut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
138. It seems to me that failing to prosecute the perpetrators of these crimes
for war crimes and other offenses will put us in the darkly-absurd and macabre moral pickle of owing the Third Reich an apology for the Nürnberg trials.

At least that's what it seems like from where I sit, unless my perceptions are way off and I'm nuts. But dammit it sure seems this way.

How ya like them apples?

Todd in Cheesecurdistan
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-29-10 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
140. Can a private citizen, such as myself, bring charges against these war criminals?
And what judge would hear the case, if I did pursue such a course of action?
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