American political discourse, when did it all go wrong?

[Barack_America]

Was it ever "right"?

Have we reached a new low with the violence (by the Right) in recent days?

How does it threaten our country?

An open thread for discussion.


I personally remember the rise of Rush Limbaugh in the 90's being associated with a precipitous drop in civility, but I'd be interested in hearing more from people who remember further back than my days allow.

[ixion]

1. You can go all the way back to Alexander Hamilton

who started proposing fascist policies before the ink was dry on the Constitution.

Globally, you can go all the way back to the Separation of State and Agriculture several thousand years ago.

It seems to be a hard-wired flaw in our genetic make up. :(

[villager]

24. Separation of state and agriculture? Didn't the advent of agriculture lead to the advent of classes?

...the ruling members of which have proceeded to run their governments -- with brief exceptions -- over the course of human history?

[ixion]

44. The Separation between State and Agriculture is seen as the first step toward modern civilization

that's why I used it, to illustrate that this has been with us since the Dawn of Man.

[Recursion]

40. Huh? Hamilton is closer to us liberals today than Jefferson

He wanted a strong Federal government, believed in a (moderate) national debt and Federal spending, etc.

[ixion]

43. Hamilton proposed curtailing our civil liberties right out of the box

and was hailed by the GOP as one of the best Treasury Secretaries ever, and no, he was not more progressive than Jefferson.

Hamilton was always denounced by the Jeffersonians and later the Jacksonians, but his economic ideas, especially support for a flexible constitution, a protective tariff and a national bank, were promoted in the 1830s and 1840s by the Whig Party and after the 1854 by the newly created Republican Party, which hailed him as the nation's greatest Secretary of the Treasury.<6>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton

[Recursion]

45. Well, "More progressive" doesn't have any relevance to that period

And, remember, at the time they were formed, the Republicans were the "Progressive" party (and even 50 years later in the Progressive Era).

I hadn't been thinking about the sedition act, more about his willingness to spend Federal money for infrastructure

[ixion]

46. fair enough... yeah, it was primarily the Alien and Sedition Act

that he was pushing that turned me off.

For what it's worth, I would argue that Thomas Jefferson was a progressive thinker, albeit not a progressive as we think of one today.

[Recursion]

48. I guess the Teahadists quote Jefferson too much for my comfort

I mean, sure, quotes like "I swear on the altar of God eternal hostility to all tyranny over the minds of men" give me goosebumps, but "that government governs best which governs least" is too close to Joe the Plumber for me. To say nothing of watering the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. American political discourse, when did it all go wrong?

Lecompton and Lawrence, Kansas. It's been better since then, but it hasn't ever been worse.

[littlewolf]

5. oh I don't know ....

I think it has been worse .... I haven't seen any duals ...
or homes burned down .... or newspaper presses smashed and burned down ...

[Davis_X_Machina]

10. Patience, patience...

Give Fox time.

It took twenty years to get from Nullification in South Carolina to murder in Kansas. Modern media will speed that up, but it's still not an instantaneous process.

[Blue Owl]

3. I blame the M$M and more specifically FOX "news"

There's always been discourse (that's nothing new).

But today's "M$M" is all about baiting/manipulating "reality" to the point where sanity is completely lost.

[slackmaster]

4. 1791

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

[Barack_America]

14. Interesting. That's two votes for Hamilton thus far.

I'm curious as to which element you feel represents the decline of discourse; the adoption of the tax at all or the government's response to the uprising against it?

[slackmaster]

16. All of the above

The decline of discourse and the general unraveling of the ideals of our nation started then.

[AndyTiedye]

6. When The Wingnuts Bought Up the Media

It used to be that acting like a thug had consequences. The media would call them out on it.
Now the right wing owns all of the media in this country, so they can be as thuggish as they want.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

38. I'd have to agree this is the largest part of it. n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

7. Two phases

When Ronald Reagan wasn't fringe and started "making sense" to the mainstream population, and when Rush picked up the hem of Reagan's robe in the Eighties. It's been downhill since then.

Face it, Nixon wished he could've gotten away with one-quarter as much as Reagan did.

[TuxedoKat]

17. Yes...

agree with you here. I couldn't believe it when people took RR seriously and couldn't see through him and then he was elected twice! Then the first time I heard Rush on the radio in '87 or '88 I was horrified -- felt sick to my stomach. I knew this (he) was not good for Dems or the country and it has been pretty much downhill since then. The discourse has just deteriorated and gotten worse and worse and the media has just gone along with it. Now even Dems (that idiot in Rhode Island) are disrespecting the President, I won't be surprised to see more of the same sadly. At least there are some who are finally starting to stand up to these various right-wing bullies.

[Betty Karlson]

51. Make that three

Because the turn to the right that the GOP made, was started right after the Civil War.

The Grant administration was marked "America's darkest hour of corruption" by Hilgemann et alii. Basically, Grant was beholden to two corrupting principles:

1) His veterans needed to be compensated. Thus the carpetbagging northerners that went south to profiteer from the defeated states spread a certain mentality around them, and brought it back whenever they "returned home". That mentality was, of course: grab what you can - and if you lose, you're a loser. It was the first time the GOP falsified election results on such a large scale. And the first time that was profitable on such a large scale.

2) The north had had a booming economy, especially when the south had been economically blocked. To keep favouring that northern economy, Grant had to grant the northerners some considerable leeway with economic restrictions. Otherwise the south might catch up too soon. Thus, the northern producers did what the veterans did, but on a larger, more institutionalised way: plunder the south.

To keep this going, it was necessary to create ever more artificial majorities - like in the electoral college. All those mountainous and midwestern states suddenly were created, and granted 3 electoral votes and just one district. That's why 40 % of all voting Americans can be the majority a president needs to get into office. The "freed" slaves were supposed to be ever grateful to the people who fought for their sake, and allow these people to profit from those sacrifices in all eternity.

[BootinUp]

8. I think Obama kind of nailed this recently

when he was talking about media, more specifically Fox and cable. If you go back in history its probably true that more civil periods are not the norm.

The rise of the right in this cycle can still be traced to the effects of Civil Rights Act, the Vietnam war fallout, sexual revolution etc. The new right was formed in the 70's. With big money and fundamentalists and other fear mongers it has been a potent force. For every action there is a reaction.

[FiveGoodMen]

9. Reagan was a definite turning point.

People didn't like Carter telling them the truth, so they picked a story-teller instead.

Ronny promised to cut the deficit, increase spending, and lower taxes all at the same time.

Anyone who bought that should have lost the right to vote.

But most of America jumped on board.

The seeds of the problem obviously go back much farther, but that's when the fateful step onto this slippery slope occurred.

[Coyote_Bandit]

11. Ummmm......

When winning and having things our way became more important than honest discussion and exchange of ideas.

When winning and having things our way became more important than helping those who value things we don't.

When winning and having things our way became more important than any negative impact that might have on someone else.

[kctim]

42. YEP

Basically when people started using government to force their personal beliefs and values onto everybody else.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

12. About the time corporatism took control of both parties

The Bush Crime Family wing of the Republicans and the DLC wing of the "Democrats".

[DJ13]

13. About the time the news outlets became profit centers for corporations

Which led to the elimination of real journalism and investigative reporting that might embarrass other corporate entities.

That allowed the corporations to exert even greater influence over our political system, which gives the whack jobs on the fringe right unchallenged access to publicity as an astro turf campaign waged by those international corporations that funds them are determined to undermine our entire way of life.


Thats the short answer.

[Barack_America]

15. Do you include any "Broadcasting Corporation" in that?

i.e. as soon as there was such thing as an ABC, NBC, etc. or are you thinking later to when the likes of Murdoch and GE bought news stations?

[DJ13]

32. The Big Three used to operate their news divisions as a public service

It wasnt until the early 90's (maybe a little earlier) that the corporations that owned them began expecting them to add to their profit margins.

[Ozymanithrax]

18. A current of violence, both implicit and explicit, has been part of the tea party...

rhetoric from the beginning of this movement. The open carrying of guns to remind people of their second amendment remedy, the use of the language of violence (Palin and reload) are all part of this. And look at the "loan wolfs" the men who set out to crash into buildings and kill people.

Republicans used this language of violence on purpose to appeal to their base, to sell the con that we are a nation in crises, kill or be killed.

It is never right to state that the remedy for an election outcome you don't like is found in the second amendment.

It is never right to commit acts of violence against those that disagree with you, or to advocate violence.

Is it too late?

If Republicans win by playing the violence card, by leading an angry mob willing and actively doing violence, how do they turn it off? These angry people are not likely to be pleased with business as usual. So, no, I don't think it will stop.

[EFerrari]

19. Poisoning the Press:

Poisoning the Press: Richard Nixon, Jack Anderson, and the Rise of Washington's Scandal Culture
Oct 6, 2010

Mark Feldstein examines the feud between President Richard Nixon and investigative journalist Jack Anderson, a harsh critic of the president throughout his career. Mr. Feldstein recounts Jack Anderson's means of acquiring information about the Nixon administration, from poring over classified documents to sorting through garbage, and the administration's nefarious plans to hurt the journalist. Mark Feldstein presented his book at King's English Bookshop in Salt Lake City, Utah.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/296132-1


(Video, transcript at link)

People tend to think about the Nixon admin as about dirty trick that ended with Watergate but the truth is, a lot of things that are wrong with America now got their start there, imo.

[Barack_America]

22. That's the time frame I was thinking as well...

...but then got to thinking about the civil rights movement, McCarthyism and, heck, even the Civil War and I got to wondering if we've ever been a rational nation capable of civility.

[Initech]

20. I'd say the day Rush Limbaugh first appeared on the air

[treestar]

27. What I was going to say

Enabling or emboldening stupid people to wear their idiocy proudly.

[Initech]

30. You give idiots a voice, we get 8 years of fundamentalist Xtian Republican rule.

And you give idiots a voice, you get even scarier offspring.

[Greyhound]

21. Several things. We have never been as civil in our discussions of politics as we like to "remember".

There are numerous examples from throughout our history of campaigners saying the most vile things about their opponents, frequently outright lies.

The media has successfully pushed numerous bad decisions into viability from pre-revolutionary days until now.

The differences are that in the 80's, the reich-wing threw out the unwritten rules and refused to adhere to any standards of political discourse. Then Clinton exacerbated the problem with his refusal to enforce the Sherman Act and created the media conglomerates.

Hearst was a huge media force in his day and was able to push lots of crap into the American consciousness, but there were literally thousands of alternatives from all over the spectrum. No matter how many outlets he owned, he could never exercise complete control over what Americans had to read in forming their opinions.

We now we have 6 colluding corporations with a lock on virtually all media, and an explicit agenda to push through.

Limpballs, and those that followed him, are an entirely manufactured creations of these parasites and their agenda. They literally bought an audience for this message to get out. There is no equivalent on the other side.

[Blue_Tires]

23. Instead of marginalizing and mocking the true nutbars and extremists

which was done 90s, we've now made them national celebrities and legitimized their ignorance...

And the TV interviewers do NOT know how to challenge and expose an obvious liar/criminal/jackass/misanthrope/psychopath anymore... Instead they simply build up their cults of personality

Somewhere Lyndon LaRouche is out there crying -- He was BORN for this current climate and cultural era...If he were younger, he could very well have been our next president...

[B2G]

25. This thread is currently right above

the FUCKING REPUBLICANS YOU ALL SUCK thread.

Sorry, I found that to be humorous. Carry on.

:evilgrin:

[Barack_America]

26. Wish I had gotten a screenshot of that!

:rofl:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

28. 2832 BC

When the Phoenicians sailed to America....

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. Link?

[verges]

36. You asked yourself for a link? nt

[verges]

35. Looking at the sail

I think you're boat is going the wrong direction!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

52. It's not an historic representation.

Perhaps the Egyptians discovered America from the west.

:tinfoilhat:

[verges]

56. It's sailing against the wind nt

[Fearless]

31. It's nothing new.

[affrayer]

33. Rush Limbaugh Ushered In An Era Of Stupidity

Let's face the facts, if you gave the country an IQ test, the republicans would own the bottom half of the charts. They still believe that if you cut taxes on the wealthy it will balance the budget. You can spend days proving this isn't true in a variety of ways but it won't make any difference at all. The right wingers believe such nonsense is true and that's the end of the discussion for them.

Take job creation under Bush Jr. He cut taxes on the wealthy and all his administration managed to create were a net of 3 million jobs over eight years. But Clinton raised taxes on the wealthy and he created 23 million net jobs in eight years. Still the right wingers BELIEVE cutting taxes on the wealthy creates jobs. And no amount of reality or truth will change their minds.

Under Clinton they used to say: "It's the economy, stupid." Well the republicans have a new expression: "It's the stupid, stupid!"

[Barack_America]

34. Excellent points. And, Welcome to DU!!

:hi:

[renate]

39. true dat, and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[cilla4progress]

37. It's like the school bully...

a lot of those around go along with him or her for awhile, kind of chuckle, are amused by the show. But over time, an awareness rises -- oftentimes led by one lone brave dissenter, and finally, the sense of right kicks in and the bully is held to account. There's an awful lot of bullying in our society right now.

This reminds me of Bush times, also. When Rumsfeld did his pressers, he was so insulting and condescending to the reporters. I couldn't understand why they took it. Sadly, in that case, it took 6-8 years for people to come around and admit openly what a lot had been suspecting and thinking - this is no way to treat people and we aren't going to take it anymore! But why did they take it at all? They were all so cowed after 9-11. It didn't take much to get them to cower.

I think when the bully sets in, the depth of his or her viciousness both catches observers off-guard, and is also riveting...they way a horror flick or car accident has a visceral attraction. It takes time, but eventually, our humanity, better angels, higher order thinking - whatever you want to call it - takes over.

Better sooner than later. We just have to hang in there. I believe Obama believes over the longterm, the American electorate will be guided by our consciences .... perhaps lose a battle here and there, and win the war... the arc is long but it bends towards justice.

I'm girding myself for the midterms, though it's not unexpected that the Dems, as the party in power, would lose seats. It's what comes afterwards, that is giving me some anxiety.

[guitar man]

41. Probably at many different times in

...our history. But more recently, it started going way wrong when the Fairness Doctrine was thrown under the bus. The scales started tipping to the right and haven't stopped since :(

[moondust]

47. Modern era: Reagan.

Childishly referred to liberalism as the "L word," stigmatizing the very utterance of the word.

Deregulation leading to media consolidation with Murdoch and others buying up tons of media outlets, possibly with the ultimate goal of controlling virtually all the tools of mass political persuasion (and not anticipating the rise of the Internet).

Did away with the Fairness Doctrine, thus removing any penalties or inhibitions that may have prevented the above media outlets from becoming 24/7 propaganda outlets.

[LWolf]

49. +1,000

[letterwriter]

50. I agree

I was just about to blame Reagan too.

[sixmile]

53. On 9-11-01

It truly changed everything.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

54. When the Right became convinced they own all possible Universes, plus the Platonic World of Ideas.

[Xicano]

55. When we instituted political parties.

Tribalism is an inherent human nature.