My .02 cents - Dems cave on War Funding / Gonzo Resigns

[paparush]

I'm guessing a deal was done.

Just a WAG, prolly not true, as BusHitler will want the cake and eat it too.

[whistle]

1. Gonzales will not resign and Bush will go right on backing him

[Peregrine Took]

2. Shrub's fragile self image is such that he can never admit he was wrong so I

agree, he will continue to back Gonzo.

[unpossibles]

3. which is why I don't totally fault the Dems for backing down

even though it pains me. There comes a point where a thinking person realizes they are hitting their head against a brick wall (Bush) and decides to rethink the strategy.

[LiberalHeart]

6. There also comes a point when standing up for what's right is necessary --

-- even if it a futile effort. It's important for the Dems to draw the line, to define themselves and, thereby, help redefine America after the mess Bush has made of the country and its policies.

[unpossibles]

10. there are lots of issues worth standing up for

and frankly, while this is such an important issue in my opinion, they also know it would not have gone well either way.

A fool doesn't know when to regroup and rethink strategy. It's not about not standing up, it's about not being suicidal.

just my opinion.

[Demeter]

13. They Aren't Regrouping, They Aren't Rethinking, and They Sure As

hell aren't making any personal sacrifice--not even working through a recess. So there's no reason to support anything any more, except finding a grassroots way out.

[unpossibles]

17. well, then I suggest you follow one of your available options

1 - run for office yourself

2 - vote 3rd party

3 - vote for the TheoCons

4 - work to fix the problems in the Democratic party and the more widespread problems in our political system

5 - revolt


Short of #5, I'm not sure how many of these would be immediately helpful in ending the war.

[Demeter]

18. Thank You I Am. Trust You Are, Too.

[Bluerthanblue]

8. i don't understand?? if there comes a point when a thinking person

realizes they are hitting their head against a brick wall, they should just give in????

Gonzales should be removed regardless of the vote on ISF bill- why cave in on something so vitally important??? * supported wolfiwitz too- and the WB people didn't 'back down'- he would have been removed if he hadn't resigned.

Gonzales is walking the green mile- he may take baby steps to get there, but he's on his way out-

[unpossibles]

11. I would assume most people realize that hitting your head on a brick wall

does not show strength, bravey, or good strategy. I'm sorry.

It's not that this is not important - it is very important. But without the votes needed to override a veto, that's what we're seeing here.

[Bluerthanblue]

12. one veto is one

veto- * didn't like the bill that was sent to him, it rattled him, it angered him, and he was FORCED to do something he didn't want to have to do- vote not to fund the troops-

If all it takes is one veto to discourage the Dem's- then we are completely screwed- and might just as well fold our hands in defeat now.

You don't confront a bully by letting him continue to beat you- And you have to stand in the face of his rage and say "YOU cannot manipulate me with your threats"- either that or leave him- and that isn't really an option here.

You plan on giving in, until we have the votes to over-ride a * veto???????- that day will likely never come-

[unpossibles]

16. no, I didn't say that

I guess we'll just disagree on this. I don't like that they folded, but what happens if they kept resubmitting the same bill and t kept getting vetoed? I just don't see Bush ever backing down on it, honestly, so it would make no sense, although I guess the bright side is that it would have had the result of not funding the war (and other things).

I guess I am saying that while I don't like it, I don't see the point of throwing crap at them for being "weak" at this point.

And I hate the whole "bully" analogy too, even though Bush is a bully, because it's not a fair fight at all because of the veto power. You can beat a bully.

Even Bruce Lee knew that sometimes the way to win is to avoid the fight. I doubt many would say he is weak for it either.

[Bluerthanblue]

19. some fights you can't avoid- and giving in is worse

than giving up- because * is still in power- and they have only strengthened his ego- his psyche AND given those who rely on him even more reason to 'believe in him'- (yeah that seems ludicrous to me too)

But his 'base' is counting on his "iron-will"- and the Dem's just ate right out of his hand.

You don't empower a dangerous man- If the supplemental funding bill were the entire 'battle' if this were the only issue that lay ahead, then one would have to weigh the wisdom of continual conflict- but this is a person who has come to believe his is invincible- and all this bill has done is to prove it-

and it's ok to not share my perspective- just because it's mine doesn't make it 'true' or 'right'-
:hi:
peace,
blu

[unpossibles]

21. no problem. It's not that I don't see what you're saying

or even that I too was not upset/angered over this too, just that I don't know that a prolonged battle over this would have done any good either.

[Demeter]

14. Especially When They Ignore The Wide Open Door

not to mention the unlocked windows and the gaping holes in the roof.

[nolabels]

15. As long as Gonzo is there * will be safe from any special proscuter

Elizabeth Holtzman: Why Bush won't want to replace Gonzales

Consider what happened when Richard Nixon nominated a successor to his attorney general.

Elizabeth Holtzman

Published: May 05, 2007

No matter how many members of Congress lose confidence in Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, President Bush is unlikely to let him go. If Gonzales resigns, the vacancy must be filled by a new presidential nominee, and the last thing the White House wants is a confirmation hearing.

Already, the Senate is outlining conditions for confirming a Gonzales successor. Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., head of the Judiciary Committee, said that his panel wouldn't hold confirmation hearings unless Karl Rove and other White House aides testify about the firing of U.S. attorneys to clarify whether "the White House has interfered with prosecution."

All this is reminiscent of the Watergate scandal. In 1973, as the coverup was unraveling, the Senate imposed a condition on the confirmation of President Richard Nixon's nominee for attorney general, Elliot Richardson. Richardson's predecessor had resigned because of Watergate troubles. Concerned that the Justice Department would not get at the truth, the Senate insisted that Richardson would name a special prosecutor to investigate Watergate. Richardson duly appointed Archibald Cox.

The rest is history. Cox's aggressive investigations led to the prosecution of top administration officials and the naming of Nixon as an unindicted co-conspirator in the coverup. When Cox sought White House tapes of Nixon's conversations with his staff, the president had him fired, unleashing a firestorm of protests. Americans demanded that a previously reluctant Congress start impeachment proceedings against Nixon. Congress complied; the House Judiciary Committee, of which I was a member, voted for impeachment, and Nixon resigned.
(snip)
http://www.startribune.com/562/story/1164109.html

[CTD]

4. Gonzo will not resign and Bush will not remove him

Gonzo is sitting on a huge steaming pile of scandals, some of which haven't even seen the light of day here. If Gonzo goes, Bush has to nominate someone for AG who might actually care about justice as another Bushie will not be confirmed by the Senate. Then the shit would really hit the fan. This would be where the true threat of jailtime for Bush, Cheney and others would arise.

They will fight to the death to keep Gonzo in as AG.

[acmavm]

5. Hope you don't have any money on that.

[madinmaryland]

7. NO. Will not happen.

As long as Bush knows he can run roughshod over congress, he will.

IMPEACH NOW!

[Az]

9. Sorry I can't accept a deal where lives are sacrificed

And what benefit do we gain anyway from Gonzo resigning? Its not like we get to assign his replacement. They are still going to stuff a Bushbot in the office. At least with Gonzo in office we can still make Bushie twist in the sun.

[GeorgeGist]

20. A penny for your thoughts.

:freak:
:nuke:

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. Nope. The psycho needs Gonzo right where he is. He knows where all the bodies are buried and how the

corruption has been covered up. There's no way Gonzo resigns before the psycho's term is over. He'll have to be impeached and we all know the balless Dems wouldn't dare do that!:eyes: