Did you believe Bush/members of the Bush administration were going to be charged with war crimes

[ProSense]

during President Obama's first two years?

[flvegan]

1. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

:rofl:

These complicit, spineless twits? We could give this Congress and/or Obama 100 years and they wouldn't do shit about it.

[PBS Poll-435]

2. No. Of course not.

I have a hard time believing that anyone really thought that prospect was going to happen.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PBS Poll-435]

24. Again with the insults...

I am a center-left Democrat who spent my personal time attempting to elect Democrats to office here in Texas.

I don't live in fantasyville and anyone who thought that there would be serious charges leveled against the previous administration is deluded.

[Ken Burch]

30. I've posted somewhat harshly to you

Because you haven't treated progressive posters with respect and your normal debating style here had been to post one-word snark attacks at them rather than actually debating them on the merits of their ideas.

And the spiteful and arrogant tone you took in THAT response is a good demonstration.

There's no inherent reason why it was unthinkable to expect the charges to be laid. Given that the GOP was already committed to all-out war against the admin, it wouldn't have done any political harm and might have kept more of those who abstained out of despair this fall feeling as if they should still care(I don't agree with their decision to abstain, but bashing them isn't the answer. They need to be WOOED back and have their grievances listened to and dealt with respectfully, rather than simply being told "you HAVE to" and "you OWE us".)

[PBS Poll-435]

65. I admire your gumption

And if you think I am on the wrong team, think again.

[Subdivisions]

40. Should charges be leveled or not? n/t

[PBS Poll-435]

66. I think an inquest should be ordereed

Charges need to be ordered by a Grand Jury, I think.

[Kaleva]

27. I chalk it up to wishful thinking. Like the folks who buy lottery tickets hoping for the big score.

There's the promise that someone will win the big one and being set for life but for the vast majority who buy tickets, it's an empty promise.

[Forkboy]

43. Do you think charges should be filed?

[Kaleva]

63. Nope. Trying to fight that battle will cost us the war.

People I listen to are worried about their jobs, keeping their homes or what they are going to do when the unemployment runs out. If Democrats don't concentrate on turning the economy around and give people the sense that it is at least improving, then I really believe that the Repubs will keep the House, win the Senate and we also might well see Palin or some other Republican being sworn in as president.

[crim son]

3. I did, when Obama was elected.

Not any more.

[Ken Burch]

4. Obviously they should have been, but the corporate types he surrounded himself with

wouldn't let it happen.

You can't actually be gloating about the war crimes charges NOT happening, though.

I mean, you do realize that now, it probably never will happen, which means they got away with it.

And it's not as if the administration gained anything from not charging the murderous jizzbags.

[BlackHoleSon]

5. No, but...

doesn't mean I can't hold Obama and Holder in contempt for not doing it.
That and $2 will get me a cup of joe, though.

[BeFree]

7. Yes

It is the only thing that should have been done. It was the easiest thing to do and the smartest.
The fact that it hasn't been done proves that there is no blind justice anymore.
This situation leads to defeat of any hope for any real change. We're done. It's over. They won.

[Ken Burch]

8. Why did you start this thread?

Is there a reason you want to bait people who hoped for such charges to be laid?

It's not as if war crimes trials wouldn't have been justified.

Plus, now it's almost certain no charges ever will be laid.

Why DOESN'T that bother you?

You're gloating here and there's nothing to gloat about. It's a tragedy that these murderers weren't charged.

[ProSense]

11. Freedom. n/t

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

16. "But why do you think it's a good idea?"

Because it was the only way to get the answer to the question posed. Clear?

[Ken Burch]

22. Not clear at all. There was no particular reason to pose this question.

And it certainly didn't need to be posed in such a way as to mock people who've felt disappointed about this.

Your framing makes it sounds like anyone who expected such charges to be laid was a spoiled child. And where do you get off implying THAT? Who are YOU to set yourself up as the official arbiter of what are and what are NOT legitimate expectations for this administration?

You need to give this tone a rest. You're not entitled to it.

[ProSense]

25. You do whatever you want to do.

I felt like asking the question. That's reason enough.

Your framing makes it sounds like anyone who expected such charges to be laid was a spoiled child. And where do you get off implying THAT? Who are YOU to set yourself up as the official arbiter of what are and what are NOT legitimate expectations for this administration?

"You need to give this tone a rest. You're not entitled to it."

Are you for real or has this question rattled you so much you can think straight?

[Subdivisions]

44. You continued a conversation from another thread that has been deleted. THAT'S

what you did.

[ProSense]

49. Sorry,

no.

[Subdivisions]

52. Oh yes you did. n/t

[ProSense]

53. Oh, no I didn't. n/t

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

42. And puppies! Don't forget puppies!

[Ken Burch]

55. And ponies and unicorns and Che!

:eyes:

[leftstreet]

13. I can't wait for the Did You Really Believe They'd Leave SS Alone? (poll)

:eyes:

[ProSense]

19. Not going to happen

Remember, if the President or Congress touches Social Security, there political careers will be over. Bank on it.

[Marr]

26. I have a question for you.

Hypothetically speaking then, *if* Obama does make cuts to Social Security (I know you insist he will not, but if he does), would it make you withdraw your support?

I believe I asked you this once before, and you said it would not... which does not lend a lot of weight to your assertion that he would never do it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[ProSense]

29. Let me think

Yes, but I've seen absolutely no indication that he intends to do it, which would amount to political suicide.

[obxhead]

33. Just to confirm.

You will withdraw your endless support of Obama if he attacks SS?

I want to bookmark this one.

[Luminous Animal]

34. Do you believe that raising the retirement age is a cut in SS benefits?

[leftstreet]

35. ...

:popcorn:

[ProSense]

38. Same answer. Now, are there

classes on interrogating ProSense? Is there a club?


:rofl:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

54. No. And, for the record, I agree with the admins on DU on respectful, polite & constructive dialog.

Thank you very much for your answer.

I have one more question. Given that you believe that there should be no cuts in benefits and no raising of the retirement age, do you have any suggestions for a long term strategy so that those who retire in 2045 will be able to realize full benefits?

[Marr]

36. We see things very differently.

I've seen quite a bit that suggests cuts to Social Security are on the way. It may very well be political suicide, but I think a lot of our leadership cares more about servicing a certain agenda than maintaining the party's relevance.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ibegurpard]

20. no shit

[Marr]

9. No, I understood that Obama served the same interests that the Bush Administration served.

And that he would go out of his way, and spend real time and energy to defend them.

That does not mean that I thought it was right, and it certainly doesn't mean I excuse it. Do you?

[ProSense]

14. Tell you what

the minute Democratic leaders, both in and out of office (Dean and the rest) start pressuring the administration to prosecute Bush, I'll believe something might happen. Not just saying casually that the crimes weren't prosecuted, but a sustained campaign to prosecute Bush officials for war crimes.

[Ken Burch]

17. "but a sustained campaign to prosecute Bush officials for war crimes" what?

Are you saying there needs to BE such a campaign? It's not as if no one has been doing just that, you know. If you wanted to call for the campaign to get stronger, that's valid, but all you've done with the tone you've taken in this thread is to sneer at people for having high standards for the administration they elected.

[Marr]

23. We're not talking about *inaction* here.

We're talking about a president who actively worked to protect these former government officials. You act like this is a matter of Obama not acting because he had no support. He *did* act.

[ProSense]

28. And your

point? I certainly didn't expect the U.S. government to allow a foreign government to prosecute a U.S. administration.

Now, back to the point about prosecutions within this country, which is what the OP is about.

[Marr]

32. You never specified domestic charges.

The Obama Administration apparently helped kill a potential criminal investigation in Spain, while avoiding any action domestically.

You can look at those two positions in separate vacuums if you like-- but I have to tell you it seems a bit silly to me. I'd say it's pretty obvious that he actively worked to protect former officials from criminal investigation, period.

[ProSense]

41. It was implied: "during President Obama's first two years"

not by a foreign government.

[Ken Burch]

59. Why does it matter?

Why should any foreign prosecution automatically be considered illegitimate?

It's not as if Americans are born with an immunity to committing war crimes.

Our troops fight just like every other country's troops. And our officials
act just like the officials of every country we go to war with. We have no inherent moral superiority to the rest of the planet.

[Ken Burch]

51. Well, why SHOULDN'T we allow foreign governments to prosecute a U.S. administration

if the country that government leads was affected by what that U.S. administration did.

It's not as if U.S. officials or soldiers are inherently incapable of committing war crimes.

[katandmoon]

10. No. Is that supposed to make Obama's attitude and his DOJ less reprehensible for it?

Because it sure as fuck doesn't.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[obxhead]

18. I completely expected it!

I thought we would focus on getting everyone a pony that shit tiny pots of gold and had pretty 6.2 million color rainbows shooting out of their ears, end world hunger, end global war, colonize Pluto, and mine Venus for a new power source 10 times more potent than uranium first though.

(Do I really need it?)

[XemaSab]

21. I thought there was going to be some sort of investigation

into the run-up to the Iraq war and our actions as far as torture and illegal extradition, yes.

[VMI Dem]

31. I remember tons of people saying Clinton protected the Bush families crimes.

Lots of those same people are very understanding now.

:rofl:

[Subdivisions]

37. Does that mean that he shouldn't be prosecuted for WAR CRIMES? And isn't

President Obama aiding and abetting a WAR CRIMINAL?

[Forkboy]

39. Whether Obama does so or not, do you think they should be charged?

[slipslidingaway]

46. Obama and GOPers Worked Together to Kill Bush Torture Probe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9669039&mesg_id=9669039

http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/12/wikileaks-cable-obama-quashed-torture-investigation


Did you expect the Obama administration to help protect them from criminal investigations?

"In its first months in office, the Obama administration sought to protect Bush administration officials facing criminal investigation overseas for their involvement in establishing policies the that governed interrogations of detained terrorist suspects. A "confidential" April 17, 2009, cable sent from the US embassy in Madrid to the State Department—one of the 251,287 cables obtained by WikiLeaks—details how the Obama administration, working with Republicans, leaned on Spain to derail this potential prosecution..."

[mmonk]

56. I was hoping a country that adheres to international law might.

If they did, it might force our lap dog media to address the issue.

[EFerrari]

57. He said early he would not. n/t

[Canuckistanian]

58. In 2008, yes, I did.

But I would NEVER have guessed at collusion with the GOP to STOP it.

[FirstLight]

60. i guess I am naieve

YES - I thought that with our YES WE CAN & CHANGE we would have a new era of accountability, progressive movement forward and some real leadership from dems in general, but especially the big talking campaigning version of Obama

i feel duped, yes i do

and i am trying not to lose my last grip on the bottom rung of my life as I continue to search for work...

yes, i feel let down in every way possible ... and yes, i thought the bastards would get what was coming to them, and we would also be OUT of BOTH wars by now, not hunkering down for more...

[JackRiddler]

61. What is your obfuscatory point?

No, I didn't believe it. But it would have been and remains the right thing -- legally, morally, and politically. The latter for someone who will now be attacked by a wave laughably irrelevant investigations, he should have slapped them first for the actual crimes they had committed. The GOP was in danger, and the Obama administration didn't press this advantage to expose the full panoply of Bush crimes, as they should have for the good of the nation and world. They did the wrong thing, predictably, and it remains wrong. Your pointing out that it would have been naive to think Obama would have done the right thing, given the disgustingly self-destructive "pragmatism" of his administration, doesn't change that fact that he should have done the right thing.

[Radical Activist]

62. Bush needed to be held accountable by Congress while he was still in office.

We missed our chance when Pelosi chose not to hold hearings. It's still the job of Congress. It's that whole checks and balances between the branches thing we learned about in high school. Once again, Congress is failing us and people want to talk about nothing but Obama.

The Justice Department is holding investigations into torture. If that works its way up the chain then we may get some high profile prosecutions. Unfortunately, I don't see any legal process outside of Congressional action to prosecute a President for the "crime" of lying about war. Every war is preceded by lies.

[csziggy]

64. I had hopes but really didn't believe it would happen

The crooks always get a get out of jail card.

[jotsy]

67. I expected the rule of law to have a chance to be applied.

None was offered, which is in and of itself not a happy thought for me. I contend the nation's gonna have self image issues until the most recent chapter of the BFEE crew is facing some music for the havoc they have wreaked upon an unsuspecting planet.

Whatever I believed at the time isn't something I see as relevant now.

[Imagevision]

68. Actually George H.W. Bush spoke with Clinton to calm that talk down...

[seabeyond]

69. no, he made it clear he wouldnt. but sometimes he said things that made me hopeful

clinton made it clear she wouldnt either.

but i really really wanted them to go after the crimes

but i figured they wouldnt