Today I kept my mouth shut.

[truedelphi]

There is a local business here in my neck of the woods that also runs the recycling program.

A few days ago, M. and I took our valuable objects in for the usual ten to fifteen bucks worth of redemption rewards. The young man working the booth mentioned he had spent eight years in the military and that he had been to Afghanistan and Iraq. This didn't surprise me, as he had that "ghetto" look people have when they have seen too much bloodshed. (This particular person is a white guy, and possibly has never even driven through an urban ghetto.)

Today I went back over to his booth. It was very quiet there tonight. No one else was around. I had a small bag full of soda cans as a prop.

And I asked him to talk to me about his experience.

Well, once he started talking, he could not stop.

I can't describe my reaction to what he told me. He had no shame about any of it. Some one of his superiors had entrained his heart and mind to believe that the Iraqis needed killing, and that the Geneva Convention was simply a piece of paper that would take more American lives than it was worth.

However the longer he talked, the more relieved he was. I had sensed his pent-up energy earlier in the week, and that was why I made the visit to him.

In some ways, this experience was not new to me at all.

My father had begun unraveling the edges of his soul when I was only three years old. He needed someone to listen to him about his battle experiences in WWII. Over the next five or six years, I knew the names of the towns in Belgium and Germany that his platoon had been through as well as he did.

But nothing my dad ever told me was of blatant disregard for human life. Did my dad kill innocent people? Yes, he did, but it upset him.

The eight year old that I used to be asked him about that, saying "Daddy, you only killed the bad people, right?"

And his answer was a sad and quiet one: "You fire a 155 millimeter Howitzer shell into a village, you sure don't know who you are killing. But you certainly cannot prevent the killing of innocent people."

Eight year old me: "But they were Germans, anyway, weren't they Daddy?"

Dad: "They were my cousins." This said in a mournful tone. (His family on his mother's side were Von Muellers. So he did indeed kill his cousins.)

The young man in the recycling booth was not at all constrained by any sense of people being people. Iraqis were the enemy, and there were good Iraqis only when they were pumped full of ammo.

Anyway, I left the recycle booth feeling that maybe talking about his experiences helped him in some way. I didn't criticize him. I imagine I will be back, and he will have other stories, as grotesque as the ones told to me today.

And maybe someday I will mention a metaphysical talking point to him -- that basically people are people.

And part of what helped me keep a lid on my feelings is this: he may have wanted to be a soldier all his life. But it was his superiors who allowed him and everyone around him to act much more like the Nazis acted during WWII, and much less like the Americans fighting the Nazis did.

And for those of his superiors who shaped his training so that he ended up doing the things he did, I hope there is a really awful place in hell.

[Rage for Order]

1. I guess it depends on who he killed

If he walked through Iraqi neighborhoods, randomly shooting at women and children, then he's a sociopath. If he killed Iraqis who were shooting at him I'd imagine he wouldn't feel too badly about that. Kill or be killed is much different than blindly lobbing artillery shells into distant villages.

[truedelphi]

4. I wouldn't have been upset as much as I was, if

he was killing only when needing to save his own skin, or the lives of his compadres.

I cannot say more than that.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

39. Never been to war have you?

It's no different.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Good on ya, for listening, for giving him that outlet...

He needed it, and he will need it, for a long time to come...

Recommended.

[Radical Activist]

3. Soldiers are always victims of war.

[WillParkinson]

5. Oh, no no no...

Soldiers are like shrapnel. Little pieces get blown away when they explode and no one in our government bothers to think of picking up the pieces and trying to help put them back together. After all, they did their job like good soldiers should and now we're done with them.

So much innocence lost that we can never give them back and so much of themselves gone that most don't care about.

[SaveAmerica]

27. So true, innocence lost, but they are trying to make a difference this time

I've been to group sessions for PTSD and you can see they are doing their homework about where the guys are and what was done wrong in the past. The key is to get the guys who need the help into the sessions.

The bigger key, though, is to quit sending them to these idiotic Fools' Wars so we don't have this need to do right by them in therapy. Do right by them and keep them at home.

I give the biggest chunk of credit to any change in the VA system (in regards to PTSD) to our Vietnam Veterans. They are standing up for their younger vet buddies and are dead serious about making sure they're treated right.

[Rhiannon12866]

6. Wow. Powerful story.

Thanks for sharing this with us. You probably needed to as much as the young man who shared his experiences with you. You did a good thing today, giving that young soldier a chance to exorcise some of his demons, and I totally agree with you about who is responsible. It's no wonder that so many returning combat veterans need help with so much more than the physical injuries. There should also be a special place in hell for those who want to cut back on veterans benefits, especially now. :grr: O8)

[truedelphi]

7. I hear you abt the veteran benefits. The County I live in has only 89,000 people.

But more young people volunteer for the Armed services, in proportion to the population, than any other county in the state.

Yet a veteran has to travel to another county, three counties away, in order to get to a vet's hospital.

[Tatersbrowning]

20. VA care

The VA hospital I use is the most efficiently run hospital I've ever been in. I've never had to wait for more than five minutes, the equipment is state of the art and the people are all very nice. Don't believe everything you hear.

[Divernan]

62. Welcome to DU

Used to be a tradition on DU - when someone put up their first post - that lots of people would welcome them. Don't see that too much nowadays.

I'm glad for you that you get good and timely treatment at your VA hospital. I have friends for whom that has not been the case. Specifically, a WW II vet living south of Chicago. His 80+ year old wife had to drive him to Indiana to get treatment without waiting 4 months just to get an initial appt. at the VA nearest to their home in Illinois. The VA hospitals and other assistance to returning vets and their families is where we need to be putting our taxes.

[Rhiannon12866]

22. It's much the same in my area, Northern NY, very rural.

I've heard of cases where those way north of here have had to travel several hours south, to the Albany VA, including those from WWII and Korea, older Americans, Dads of friends of mine. :(

My congressman is very proactive on veterans' issues, is on the Armed Services Committee, and when I worked on his last campaign I learned how much he has been doing for area veterans. He was endorsed by the VFW, had drafted a bill to pay for additional benefits from money already budgeted and worked to obtain medals for area Vietnam vets, that they deserved, but had never received. He also supports repeal of DADT, compared it to Truman's desegregation of the military. :thumbsup:

And yet, he lost last month to a teabagger, recent ex-military, who favors repeal of the health care bill (which my congressman voted for) and believes the decision on DADT is not the business of Congress. I fear that conditions are going to only get worse for vets, with this new Congress. Veterans in my district have lost a good friend. ;(

[SaveAmerica]

28. That's a true shame (your Congressman's loss)

[w8liftinglady]

31. the same with mine-and NO public transportation outside of Dallas County

VFW and American legion are good about helping the guys get to the VA,if there are any near you.

[undeterred]

8. War exploits men.

[proud patriot]

9. people are people

Thanks for sharing this. Thank you for listening to this soldier.
Thank you for understanding what created his frame of mind.

I hope that if you talk with him again that you will share more .

:patriot:

[Kali]

10. you did a very generous thing

be careful about absorbing too much evil, but what you did was so good it might help him

[truedelphi]

11. Thank you.

One of my favorite internet acquaintances was Riverbend, and we even wrote to each other a few times.

I will never forgive the Powerful for setting us on the path to war with the Iraqi people.

And I don't blame the grunt with anywhere near the fury I feel against his superiors.

[Kali]

13. I followed her for a long time - has she ever written again after getting to Syria?

listening can be very powerful, I admire what you are doing for that man

[donco]

12. After many years of sleepless

nights he …might get over it.Then again maybe not.

[Octafish]

14. Thank you for spelling it out, truedelphi.

You have made clear the difference between your the war your father fought and what our nation is doing in the present. We are in NAZI times.

The soldier, in a way, is as much a victim as the innocents killed for no reason other than profit and power.



As for the ones who lied America into launching these illegal, immoral, unnecessary and disastrous wars: They are traitors.

[truedelphi]

17. Hi Octafish!

I cannot imagine what my dad's burden would have been like if he had been "shaped" into
being immoral.

He died in 2002, at the age of ninety. And two years after voting for Al Gore, the first Democratic Presidential candidate he had ever voted for.

It would have pained him deeply to see the shape this nation is in right now.

One time he said to me (I am paraphrasing to keep it a short remark: "If we ever have thugs and dishonest people running our nation, we might face exactly what happened in Germany in the thirties.

And I see that as having happened - except that in Hitler's Germany, the middle incomed worker was celebrated. You were required to march around in parades, but as long as you weren't a dissident, union leader or of Jewish descent, your lifestyle improved. (Until of course the bombing raids started in.)

Here we are accepting our enslavement, and there aren't even any "perks" to help the medicine go down easily.

[kgnu_fan]

15. Have you read the book "Winter Soldier - Iraq and Afghanistan -

Eyewitness Accounts of the Occupations" by Iraq Veterans against the War and Aaron Glants

You may want to give him this book someday....

[truedelphi]

19. That will be one for my library list.

And after I read it, I'll have to assess when and if this book is something that will help him.

[w8liftinglady]

16. just know that as much as they pretend not to care...they care.Thank you from a vet's mom

you did more than any of his buds back home could do...just gave him an open board.he needed it that night.

If you see him again,you might ask him if he belongs to IAVA...they are there for Iraq/Afghanistan vets.

[truedelphi]

18. I will do that. And I really feel that in some way I have this assignment of

Looking out for him.

I will try and find all pertinent local information about the IAVA stuff that happens in my area. So he won't have to look for it. Thanks so much for the suggestion.

[peacebird]

21. thank you. Your kindness has given me heart and renewed my faith in people.

:hug:

[jotsy]

23. I had an experience over the summer like this that kind of hangs with me.

A warm day at the pool at the new apartment complex and I'm supervising the youngster from a lounge chair adjacent to one occupied by a young man about to be sent over for the first time. Hollering across the pool engaged in a chat with another fresh recruit. Discussing the removal of genital equipment as a thing to be proud of; neither of them could wait. I was stunned, lost somewhere between heartbroken and disgusted. I wanted to say so much, if nothing else not to be so graphic in the presence of small ones, but I left instead, knowing if I said anything at all, a spectacle would ensue and if I stayed, I'd not be able to hold my tongue. I couldn't have really young kids get a front row seat to a scene like that. People this age have fewer options to pursue their futures than I can ever remember, and I've a feeling that's by design.

I wonder if soldiers serving the machine as part of the occupations of countries in the middle east are still carrying "Jesus's side arms". To invoke the name of any deity as an excuse to view any other with disregard is an act of the faithless, IMO.

I've watched our Department of Defense reveal itself as a church of aggression and not be the least bit of apologetic though the core of the democratic principle is social justice, ruddered religion free through the doctrine of separating church from state. The firewalls between intelligence agencies hold strong, yet the more significant and structural ones are burned down like evidence.

Excellent OP Ms. Delphi, happy to recommend.

[SaveAmerica]

25. You've addressed the 3rd group

How do they get to be like this? We were waiting in a clinic in the VA recently and I was disgusted to hear 2 guys and the right wing talking points they spewed about why we were in Iraq. None of it made sense, it had Fox written all over it and it was the kind of hate you just can't counter with truth. It was not worth acknowledging so I let it go.

[SaveAmerica]

24. Thank you for not judging and extra thanks for listening

It's not a comfortable place for people to be who know the truth of what's happened to get to Iraq but at the same time know they have to be there for their buddies. And one day a lot of those who went to the middle east and didn't know the truth of how we got there will learn the truth and will have that guilt on top of the reality they lived while there.

My husband was in the first camp. He'd had his training, been in the service for many years and when given orders, was ready to go to Iraq to support his fellow soldiers. He embodies what it means to stand together as a group and protect the country and he and the others like him are why we have to stay vigilant and not let politicians use them for the wrong reasons and in the wrong countries.

This guy loves people from other places and backgrounds and he gets along with everyone. I can't tell you the pain I felt after hearing the first story of him locking and loading because of a distrust in a people that he had to have to survive. There's so much that I could write but don't know how, it's just been the worst time in my life and we're still working our way through it. And I didn't even see or do what he did.

I've been going to group sessions for PTSD with him and you know what I see a shortage of? Younger veterans. They, for the most part, still have that mindset when they return that they are to bear the burden of what they did and saw and not seek out help. I hope that you realize how important it is when an accidental counselor comes along and gives them some time, no matter how much, to get some of that off of their chest. Thank you so much for doing that.

Dear America, PLEASE! Let's get together to bring our service members home now. 2014 is too far away, 2011 was also but I believed Obama when he said we needed to be there to get the job done correctly as he promised in his campaign in 2008.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Thanks for listening

but most soldiers never get over the gook. raghead, or whatever is the current epithet.

It is a defensive mechanism to the job they do.

Why we should not let the dogs of war slip unless truly necessary.

Oh and I am surprised he talked with you... but it is good he did.

I've had conversations with troops, starting oh back in Gulf War I... and continuing to this day... and I do exactly that, listen. At times I am asked a moral question... and those are the hard ones.

But dehumanizing your targets is exactly what you need to do. I know this is hard for civilians who have never been there to understand, but that is what people put in that situation need to do, if they are to keep some measure of sanity.

[Swamp Rat]

29. Thank you. He, too, is a victim.

:hug:

I hope he has a breakthrough someday and survives it to become a whole person again. O8)

[FedUp_Queer]

67. There's something I don't get.

I've not been to war. My Dad has not been to war, and my deceased Grandpa and his Brother (both in WWII) wouldn't talk about it. I fully acknowledge I don't have any frame of reference. However, I can't help but wonder where is the consternation at what seem to be war crimes here. Would there be this much compassion for an Iraqi or Afghan soldier who had done this to Americans or anybody else? (It is after all their country.) Shouldn't there be accountability (prosecutions) for the average foot soldier AND (even more appropriately for) the commanders? Nuremberg told us that following orders was not a defense to war crimes and other international crimes (it could be a mitigating factor in sentencing).

The fact is that if I had to choose between prosecuting foot soldiers like this young man and the likes of Petraeus, Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, Rumsfeld etc., I'd chose to prosecute them, but it should not be an either/or.

Finally, I don't mean to insult any veteran here or veteran's family, but I can't help but wonder about my reaction, and I can't help but think there is something I don't get or understand.

[MadHound]

30. What the military has done to our soldiers is nothing less than a crime against humanity

A little history:

A problem had vexed our military for long time, up through WWI, and that was the massive expenditure of ammunition. Throughout our history there has been a tremendous number of rounds fired per enemy killed on the field. Our soldiers would fire high, fire low, and back during the Civil War and before, simply continue to load their rifles and never fire them at all during battle.

After noting this problem, after WWI the military undertook to find out the reason why there was this seemingly reluctance to kill. They employed some of the best psychological minds of the time, and what they found in the end is that people, virtually every single one of us has a deep seated, inbred reluctance to kill our fellow human being, even in self defense. This has been confirmed time and again since then, any now many owe it to an evolutionary trait that has allowed mankind to survive and thrive.

Well, the military could have none of this, so they set about to design a way of breaking a soldier down mentally, and then rebuild him in a lean, mean, killing machine. What they came up with is a program that is, in many ways, similar to what initiates into cults go through, but the military calls it basic training. Through abuse, affection, rewards, punishment, sleep deprivation and hard physical labor, they break down a soldiers psyche in order to remove that one trait, our inbred reluctance to kill.

Basic training is very effective, they've got the ammo expended to number of kills stats to prove it. But it has taken a horrible toll on our soldiers, wrecking numerous lives and causing countless damage. This is simply another high price we pay in order to continue to feed the military industrial complex. If they can't have our soldiers' lives on their altar of blood and profit, they will insure that they get their soul.

[truedelphi]

32. Thanks for this input, Mad Hound.

I have to get to bed, but your post relates to something he said.

Tomorrow i will put up what he talked abut that is relevant to this notion of training soldiers to be effective killers, above all other considerations...

[flying rabbit]

36. Another thing they did was switch the marksmanship

targets for rifle training from the standard bullseye, to man shaped silhouettes.

[pinboy3niner]

37. Yes--that came from studies of Korean War combat

I believe it was Brigadier Gen. S.L.A. Marshall who studied combat performance of infantrymen in the Korean War. Besides their natural resistance to killing, he found that a large percentage of soldiers don't fire their weapons because of isolation from their comrades and lack of visible targets.

Soldiers in foxholes or down behind cover often cannot see their leaders or the other men of their unit. Marshall's findings led to development of the Trainfire system of training troops, which used more realistic human silhouette targets and also emphasized firing whether or not a target is visible (the objective being to lay down a base of suppressive fire).

This is all from memory, and is subject to correction if my recollections are in error.

[Jackpine Radical]

43. Yes. Grossman.

From the Amazon page for his On Killing:

http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316040932/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291492287&sr=8-1

Grossman (psychology, West Point) presents three important hypotheses: 1) That humans possess the reluctance to kill their own kind; 2) that this reluctance can be systematically broken down by use of standard conditioning techniques; and 3) that the reaction of "normal" (e.g., non-psychopathic) soliders to having killed in close combat can be best understood as a series of "stages" similar to the ubiquitous Kubler-Ross stages of reaction to life-threatening disease. While some of the evidence to support his theories have been previously presented by military historians (most notably, John Keegan), this systematic examination of the individual soldier's behavior, like all good scientific theory making, leads to a series of useful explanations for a variety of phenomena, such as the high rate of post traumatic stress disorders among Vietnam veterans, why the rate of aggravated assault continues to climb, and why civilian populations that have endured heavy bombing in warfare do not have high incidents of mental illness.

I was a grunt in 1967-68, and went through the "killer training." Years later, upon reading Grossman, I began to understand what they had done to us in training.

[COLGATE4]

44. I think your premise is faulty . If you look at some of the

bloodier battles of the Civil War (Antietam, Shiloh just to name two) you will find that thousands of men were killed in the space of just a couple of hours of battle. That doesn't fit with your theory of "our soldiers would fire high, low and back... (and) simply continue to load their rifles and never fire them at all during battle". In addition, you obliquely refer to what was a real problem with soldiers new to combat during the Civil War - in the heat of combat they loaded their muskets, forgot to fire, and reloaded them again, often repeating that sequence more than once. When they finally fired, the musket usually blew up, often killing the novice soldier.

[duhneece]

51. Yes, yes yes Thank you MadHound

I just read of the 'new & improved' training that allowed our soldiers to kill more in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan than were able to in WWII. The new training allowed human being who recoiled at the idea of killing to quit seeing the 'others' as human beings, so we could kill without qualms.

And yes, that's another reason we should never go to war unless justified...I can't imagine there ever being another justified war at this stage of civilization.

[tavalon]

33. It's hard hearing his POV,

But you did a good thing, regardless.

[Jokinomx]

34. Interesting story...thanks for sharing..However,

I don't necessarily agree that things are different in the Iraq war... Afghan war...Vietnam...Korean or any other war. When at war all soldiers have to create an evil enemy to justify their actions. Your Grandfather is part the smaller percentage of soldiers that don't allow themselves to become insane with hate, killing without remorse. I have spoken personally to several war veterans from several wars and this story you heard is not any different in callousness as I have heard from others.

I once worked with a former South Vietnamese who was a soldier fighting along with the U.S. during the late 60s up to the time he and his family had to evacuate the country or be killed. He was a good man... I worked alongside him for a couple of years as a cabinet maker. Being who I am I wanted to hear about his experiences. He told me some very sad stories. I asked him about events like the My Lai Massacre, whether this was a rare thing or did it happen more than we would like to admit. He looked me in the eye and said it happened hundreds and hundreds of times. Villages wiped out...men women and children. Only one man Lt. Calley refused to participate. Otherwise we would have never heard about My Lai either.

I am sure there were some soldiers like your Grandfather that felt remorse... but there were some that had created an enemy so vile that it included all Vietnamese men, women and children. No remorse .. no feelings... that is what war does to you.

For me... all wars are equally terrible to have to experience. Some people like the one you met..may have had a more difficult time adjusting back to a civilian life. That is why we need more post war psychological counseling.

Of course the best treatment for post war syndrome is preventative. Not to have wars in the first place.

Peace

Jokinomx

[pinboy3niner]

35. Lt. Calley is a war criminal

He ordered his men to gun down unarmed men, women and children at My Lai, and participated in the murders himself.

It was Seymour Hersh, a journalist, who broke the My Lai massacre story to the world (and he received a Pulitzer for that story).

[Jokinomx]

45. I stand corrected.. I remembered the name ..but forgot who did what...

Thanks for the correction.

Peace.

[glitch]

38. And Hugh Thompson, Jr. is the hero who stopped the massacre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.

[Jokinomx]

46. Thank you for the correction...

[glitch]

61. You're welcome. It's good to remember his name and that heroes do exist. nt

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

40. Thank You for listening.

So many of us "old soldiers" just keep it inside.

Venting is good. I used to volunteer at a Veteran Rehab Center.
Went there for alcohol and drug abuse. Saw I was not the "only" one suffering.
Later shared my experiences with others.

25 years "fixed".

'Nam Vet.

Thanks again from all of us.

[Forrest Greene]

41. It's Up To You Not To Heed The Call-Up

A friend's father was a combat infantryman in Europe during WWII. He told her that Allied & Axis soldiers would often encounter each other while on patrol, carefully turn around, & walk the other way, giving each other a chance to return home in one piece to friends & family.

I mentioned that to my nephew on the eve of his shipping out to Afghanistan. Trying to plant ideas, you see. He said, "But unc --- I'm a sniper."

Oh.

[lunasun]

42. i thought we had an all voluntary military now?

"Victim" ;"need to think this way to survive" I just do not see it - it was a choice he made and it was a choice to be indoctrinated if that is truly where his thought process was shaped. But he may have come to the military that way.

I've met plenty who have never seen war and their view of some people is that those people are sub human and if it was ok to kill them in society they might do that too.

I dont think some folks need a war = the KKK did not need one to kill and find people sub human.
When everyone is not equal in your eyes it is easier to hate.

Ive also met plenty who were drafted and no drill instructor could change their heart.

They may have defended themselves but also told me how harshly some of the others in the miltary treated the people of the occupied country . That did not make them want to join in - just scared them and disheartened them as they were powerless at the time. Someone in that situation I understand and have sympathy for the war time they saw.

But the guy in the booth = not really from the story , but I would keep my mouth shut too 'cause I could get labled as subhuman in his eyes and he seems to miss the crap he was engaged in and as you said had no shame.
So I would stay far away

What if they stated a war and nobody came??

[truedelphi]

49. Everything you say are messages that my heart and my mind

Tells me.

And that is certainly one side of it.

Bu the other side of it is that this young man "Volunteered" immediately after Nine/Eleven.

And he volunteer4ed while the "Big Big Lie" was being told. (Even years later, over 50% of all people polled by Fox News still believed the Iraqis were somehow to blame.)

Do I condone this young man's actions?

no of course not.

But had we not been "occupied" by the Nazi forces of Bush for so long would he have been persuaded by the outside world to beleive as he did?

My dad's predictions came to pass.

[Mimosa]

54. 'We' have secret conscription, a draft based on economic need.

The price of college educations became unaffordable for the majority.So the military offers college educations for those who join up. Those who join up get higher pay, health care and pensions not available in today's harsh economic climate.

And the jobs in wars zones for working for the private contractors pay well despite the high risk. People need to feed their families.

And don't forget U.S. citizenship is granted to those people from Central America, Puerto Rico, etc. who join the US Military and complete their tours of duty.

[SaveAmerica]

59. Thank you for your thoughtfulness

[SaveAmerica]

58. What if no war was started? Let's put the blame exactly where it belongs.

Are they allowed to volunteer to protect this country? What if we have a military to keep us safe from true threats? Can we put that in the same category as homeowners, life, and car insurance? And then if you agree that we need protection, we have to make sure no one forgets that these policies are enforced by human beings and not just paper contracts and money.

Yes, they volunteer but they don't volunteer to be used for evil.

What if they didn't start this war and no one had to go? I might have some joy left in my heart.

[rasputin1952]

47. It is inevitable that the innocent die in war...

but for our Armed Forces to tell out people that Iraqi's are less than human is a bad shot. The Geneva Conventions gave us rules to go to war by, and when we put up our right hands to take the oath, and we become soldiers, we are beholding to it. For any superior to say otherwise is a falsehood and that individual should be turned in.

We did not fight because we wanted to, but for survival. Iraqi's are not inherently evil, only a few that have taken things to an extreme in their religious views, but even then, we should have never gone into Iraq.

After it is all over, it will be shown that there are more things in common with people than divide them. The men and women in the services today must understand that we, the people of this nation, do not support the wholesale murder of civilians. We understand it happens, but we should always condemn it...and if we all grow and evolve, we may put an end to war, then this situation will be moot...:(

[tabasco]

48. Rear echelon troops who never went off post

love to brag about how many Iraqis (or whoever) they killed.

Just an FYI.

[pinboy3niner]

52. And grunts who saw real combat...

...typically are reticent about it--and offended if they are asked, "Did you kill anybody?"

Years ago, I ran into a Desert Storm vet who told me, proudly, "I got four confirmed kills." Then he asked me how many confirmed kills I had in Vietnam. I was still reeling from his boasting about how many 'kills' he had.

In VN, I only remember the term 'confirmed kills' being associated with snipers. For the regular grunts, there is no official determination of your 'kills' and no such category in your personnel records.

In fact, most of our combat was small firefights, and when they were over, we proceeded on our mission. We didn't deviate from our route to inspect the enemy position (from which they always carried off their dead and wounded) or to follow blood trails (which was almost always an invitation to an ambush). And few in my platoon would have wanted to count personal 'kills.'

My conclusion at the time was that my acquaintance with the "four confirmed kills" was a phony, someone who had never really seen combat.

[tabasco]

66. Sounds like a liar.

I was a grunt for several years and in combat in Somalia.

The only time I ever heard the term "confirmed kill" was for snipers, and maybe tanks on other tanks.

[rasputin1952]

50. Ack, I wanted to post this before my #47...

Thank you for taking the time to talk this Vet....:hug:

[Mimosa]

53. K&R your eloquent, meaningful topic.

Why have we never as a species learned that wars are bad?

I sometimes think of Picasso's Guernica painting and those iconic photographs taken during the Vietnam War but no images can portray the damages wreaked upon the psyches of victims of wars as well as those inducted to perpetrate the violence.

[sce56]

55. The commanders are the main culprits from POTUS and Congress that voted to go there on down!

Heaven help us if we ever have to fight another war against a true & formidable enemy! Our troops will no longer be afforded the protection of the Geneva Conventions since we absolutely trashed them as evidenced by our war crimes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYbpgNRLppk

[bos1]

56. nice story except for the end

the dehumanizing of the enemy is not a Nazi tactic, it is a basic war tactic that goes back into history much further than WW2. And despite the depths that Bush's wars have brought us too, it's also not right to compare US soldiers to Nazis so easily, for a multitude of reasons.

[Uncle Joe]

57. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, truedelphi.

[puebloknot]

60. K&R I'll share my similar experiences later. Bookmarking.

[siligut]

63. Kudos on allowing him to talk

And you got this so right, "And for those of his superiors who shaped his training so that he ended up doing the things he did, I hope there is a really awful place in hell."

[Carni]

64. self deleted

[mimitabby]

65. You know, he does understand

If he didn't he wouldn't be angry. There's a part of that guy in there somewhere that knows that what he did was not right
and not noble and not good. Otherwise, why would he have issues? people who kill vermin (rats, roaches) don't have emotional issues from the fact that they are killing things...

It is horrible and I do appreciate your posting AND your actions.

[truedelphi]

68. I am sure of that also.

When you have learned to recognize the signs of a soul in torment, you understand that the issue may be buried, and may even be buried so deeply that a person won't be able to understand that it is there. But at some point, there will be a recognition and payment.

For seventeen years of my life (1989 to 2006) I did hospice. One of my favorite long term patients, he had been a warden at San Quentin. I would hear him on the phone with someone who had worked with him decades earlier, and they'd be doing the 'guy talk' thing: "Remember when you whacked that guy so hard that it was like his brains flew out?"

I always avoided the prison guard part of his life. Talking about it or thinking about it.

One day after I had been his personal assistant for six months, he turned to me and said, with tears running down his face, "I never realized that a person can be truly alive and yet be retired from the rat race. That the rat trace doesn't make someone a man. These days, I am just hanging out with one or two people and feeding the birds in the yard and looking out for the raccoons at night. And yet it is a full life." <pause.>

Then "I have nightmares about how I treated people, back when I worked at San Quentin. I told myself it was part of my job. But some of the other guards never hurt any of the prisoners. And my buddies and me would make fun of those guards."

He looked around his yard, then sighed. "We would call them 'pussies.' But now I see who it was that was really the big pussy."

[truedelphi]

69. A big thank you to everyone who

Offered their kind words and their insights.

And especially to the vets and the families of the veterans who have to deal with the energy of the wars we fight, in ways most people will never understand.