Are DUers not concerned about the latest Wikileaks release?

[hlthe2b]

NO matter how one feels about Wikileaks up until now, no matter how much benefit of the doubt one might give to whistle blowers, is this a "game changer?"

The latest release is a document that lists those worldwide facilities vital to our security, including those critically vital to public health and economic and national security... Am I wrong to be tremendously concerned about this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11923766

The US State Department in February 2009 asked all US missions abroad to list all installations whose loss could critically affect US national security.

The list includes pipelines, communication and transport hubs.

Several UK sites are listed, including cable locations, satellite sites and BAE Systems plants.

This is probably the most controversial document yet from the Wikileaks organisation.

The definition of US national security revealed by the cable is broad and all embracing.

[EmilyKent]

1. No, there hasn't been a peep on here

about Wikileaks.

[aquart]

54. +1

[hlthe2b]

67. You do realize I was specifically asking re: critical facilities document

right? At the time I posted this thread, no one had mentioned it, though MSM had picked it up a few hours earlier. I realize we have had lots of saturation of Wikileaks discussion, but it seems as though this is being perceived as upping the ante--by the press. Thus, the post.

[social_critic]

118. I would be concerned

I mentioned a few days ago I thought Assange had the right to release the data - he's media and there's something called freedom of the press. But he sure lacked common sense. He should have used some editorial restraint when releasing the documents.

[davidinalameda]

2. it gives our enemies and other assorted terrorists a good list of targets

to hit

but then again, the Wikileak cheerleaders don't care about things like that; they only care that the US and other countries are embarrassed

[Arctic Dave]

5. Bullshit arguement.

It doesn't take a genius to go on google earth and pick out any number of targets they could take out.

[davidinalameda]

20. really

someone would pick a lab in Australia that makes anti-venom for snake bits as a target?

or a factory that produces insulin?

[Arctic Dave]

35. And simple google search for pharmaceutical companies would reveal the same thing.

Not rocket science.

[Lagomorph]

62. Somehow...

...war by Google doesn't sound all that smart. Much of the world is low res and the info is months or years old. I imagine some governments are happy to remove their assets to low res areas, as opposed to hi res areas, like Port Angeles, Washington, where you can see what's in the back of a pickup truck and the clumps of needles in fir trees.

[Statistical]

169. Google will also censor certain images by request of governments.

The FOB I was stationed at in Iraq had a sat image that was nearly 5 years old. The FOB/base looked nothing like the image on google earth.

[napi21]

47. IMO anti-venom vaccines & insulin are not targets for those people.

Pay attntion to what they've done or tried to do in the past. I've heard & I'm sure you have too that their targets are always to kill the most people in one attack that they can. Super Bowls, busy Malls, and airports ^ planes are much more likely.

[davidinalameda]

159. those factories were listed as priorities in those cables

they could be targets really without too many people realizing they were targets

I believe that a handful of places made the swine flu vaccine; can you imagine what would have happened if those places were targeted?

that would affect way more people than a mall blowing up

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. Depends on your operational objectives

if your objective is sheer terror... attacking those plants will not have that effect. On the other hand, blowing up a mall will. It is the immediacy of the event.

If you are a member of a special forces outfit and your government wants to take somebody else's government hostage and you don't mind going to war... then that makes sense, after a slew of other targets though.

I should also mention that under the geneva convention they are protected as medical facilities, but so are power plants.

[davidinalameda]

181. and we all know that terrorists subscribe to the Geneva Convention

[nadinbrzezinski]

182. Hey I have been shot at plenty of times

wearing a red cross by another outfit that did not sign them. Hell, they used my vehicle markings as target markers.

That is not the point.

The point is that if your objective is terror, the Mall of America is a far better target than Pfizer labs. I guess you are having trouble understanding why, and why they have not gone after oh Lake Meade and the water supply in it.

If your objectives are set by a state on to another state actor (Most of whom have signed the conventions but we know how well WE respect them), they are protected, at least in theory. We have signed them but you MIGHT remember our first targets in Iraq were INDEED POWER PLANTS.

[benlurkin]

27. Bullshit

Google Earth doesn't show where trans-Atlantic cables make landfall and other vital info in the latest leak.

What purpose does this serve in WikiLeaks crusade to make this public?

[Arctic Dave]

39. Easy enough to find with a google search.

I know where they come up in Alaska, but the signs posted on the fecnes give them away too.

[OnyxCollie]

41. You mean those four or five trans-Atlantic cables

that managed somehow to be cut undersea during the span of a week a few years back?

I don't think you need to worry about them.

[Lance_Boyle]

91. those were trans-Mediterranean cables, damaged twice in one year.

Once by ship anchor, and once by either a trawler net or seismic activity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/3904377/Underwater-robot-working-on-severed-internet-cables.html

[OnyxCollie]

183. Cable damage hits 1.7m Internet users in UAE

Cable damage hits 1.7m Internet users in UAE
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/theuae/2008/February/theuae_February155.xml§ion=theuae

A total of five cables being operated by two submarine cable operators have been damaged with a fault in each.

These are SeaMeWe-4 (South East Asia-Middle East-Western Europe-4) near Penang, Malaysia, the FLAG Europe-Asia near Alexandria, FLAG near the Dubai coast, FALCON near Bandar Abbas in Iran and SeaMeWe-4, also near Alexandria.

The first cut in the undersea Internet cable occurred on January 23, in the Flag Telcoms FALCON submarine cable which was not reported. This has not been repaired yet and the cause remains unknown, explained Jaishanker.

A major cut affecting the UAE occurred on January 30 in the SeaMeWe-4 (South East Asia-Middle East-Western Europe-4). “This was followed by another cut on February 1 which was on the same cable (FALCON). This affected the du network majorly as connections from the Gulf were severed while there was limited connectivity within the region,” said Khaled Tabbara, executive director, Carrier Relations, du.

[OnyxCollie]

184. More.

Third undersea cable reportedly cut between Sri Lanka, Suez
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/third-undersea-cable-reportedly-cut-between-sri-lanka-suez

Third undersea Internet cable cut in Mideast
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-02-01/world/internet.outage_1_undersea-cables-new-cables-older-cable?_s=PM:WORLD

Internet Failure Hits Two Continents/Ruptures Call Safety of Internet Cables into Question
http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/2008/Internet-Cable-Failure31jan08.htm

Internet disrupted in Egypt and India
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL3026621820080130

Internet provider in UAE confirms undersea cable cut between Dubai, Oman, cause unknown
http://news.smh.com.au/technology/internet-provider-in-uae-confirms-undersea-cable-cut-between-dubai-oman-cause-unknown-20080131-1p59.html

‘Ships did not cause Internet cable damage’
http://www.jordantimes.com/?news=5427

Internet problems continue with fourth cable break
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/internet-problems-continue-with-fourth-cable-break-121812.html

Hydra-headed nature helps Net rebound after cable cut
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2753865.cms?prtpage=1

Faulty cable blacks out internet for millions
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jan/31/internet.blackout.asia/print

Fallout over Mideast damage from cut cables spreads to India
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/print/141427.htm

Cable damage in Mediterranean disrupts Internet in Mideast
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9060339/Cable_damage_in_Mediterranean_disrupts_Internet_in_Mideast

Mediterranean Cables Cut, Disrupting Communications (Update2)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&refer=europe&sid=aWe706hsLNdY

Severed cables disrupt internet
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7218008.stm

New cable cut compounds net woes
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7222536.stm

Internet outages hit Middle East
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/01/2008525144718920151.html

4th Undersea Cable Break: Between Qatar and UAE
http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=580660

The Submarine Cables – A Complete Guide to the 2008 Internet Outage
http://www.ilovebonnie.net/2008/02/12/the-submarine-cables-a-complete-guide-to-the-2008-internet-outage/

These cables were cut right before the opening of the Iranian oil bourse.

Iran oil bourse scheduled
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/39844

Iran to open oil bourse
http://www.tehrantimes.com/NCms/2007.asp?code=160651

Iran Oil Bourse to deal blow to dollar
http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/37468.html

Some related items

Spy agency taps into undersea cable
http://www.zdnet.com/news/spy-agency-taps-into-undersea-cable/115877

JIMMY CARTER: SUPER SPY?
http://defensetech.org/2005/02/21/jimmy-carter-super-spy/

Secrecy Power Sinks Patent Case
http://www.wired.com/print/science/discoveries/news/2005/09/68894

CRATER CORPORATION,
Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
LUCENT TECHNOLOGIES, INC.
and AT&T COMPANY,
Defendants-Appellees,
and
UNITED STATES,
Defendant-Appellee.
http://fas.org/sgp/jud/crater090705.pdf

FEDERAL CIRCUIT PATENT LAW CASE UPDATE
Crater Corp. v. Lucent Techs., 04-1349 (Fed. Cir. Sept. 7, 2005) (Schall, J.)
www.fcplc.org

Damaged Cable Interrupts Internet Service in Five Latin American Countries
http://www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/community/news/vam/blog/damaged-cable-interrupts-internet-service-in-five-latin-american-countries/?cs=17663

[wtmusic]

52. I'm more concerned our SOS has been stealing computer passwords at the UN

So much for that "shining beacon" nonsense.

[jtuck004]

71. True, they don't show it. But there are numerous private companies

that do, by no means secure. I know, I used to work at one, pictures on the wall and everything.

But anyone that thinks that any true enemy of the state is waiting on a wikileaks doc to get a list of targets
is simply not thinking through the logic.

These folks are smart, they are VERY well funded (with our dollars through numerous sources, especially our oil purchases),
and they are constantly collecting intelligence.

Very likely the only people that didn't know these targets are no threat anyway.

[hlthe2b]

6. I don't mean to imply this entire issue is "black and white..."

I see the areas where many could be deeply conflicted. But, I can not help but be disturbed if release goes so far beyond what we've seen released to date-- in a direction that really may put our very core security at risk.

[HipChick]

17. Listing out 'targets for terror' against the US makes it easy, listing the importance to US

security is something google won't provide you

[Zorro]

Many Wikileaks cheerleaders take great glee in US vulnerabilities being exposed

and no doubt will continue to do so -- until they lose water, power, and access to their bank accounts because of attacks against the US social and economic infrastructure.

[wtmusic]

51. Sounds like you're a little low on duct tape nt

[hlthe2b]

63. delete... (sorry-- posted wrong place)

[wildbilln864]

83. low on duct tape!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[axollot]

100. OMG Thinking the same thing. The info war is getting to everyone

in one way or another. Fact is, the information is out there - now how do we proceed going forward (as Obama likes to say). We need to change a lot regarding how this country works. The first step is understanding some of it's most secret policies.

*WE* arent too stupid to understand and our 'enemies' are hardly to stupid to need this info to hurt us if they wanted to hurt us.

How many people do we have to kill around the world as 'collateral damage' until we get a little 'blowback' ourselves?

Cheers
Sandy
a PROUD 'wikileaks' cheerleader (whatever the f'ck that is).
PS the vitriol around here will reach a screaming pitch when the banking dump happens.

[Pholus]

74. I notice you didn't address my point that secrets come out freely when TPTB WANT them to.

And stop being so hyperdramatic about "cyberwarfare" because let's face it -- it's overhyped.

Cyberwarfare attacks as you envision them work ONE TIME if you didn't prepare well and TWICE if we're stupid.

I knew several people in my hometown who stocked YEARS worth of canned goods because Y2K was going to destroy civilization.

Please stop fearmongering.

[Zorro]

92. Cyberwarfare is hardly overhyped

Many Wikileaks cheerleaders were apoplectic over the DDOS attack, and how that interfered with their access to the cables. There were quite a few howls about how the US -- with no proof -- had to be behind such an unsophisticated, brute force attack.

And then there's Stuxnet, apparently a very sophisticated worm targeted against a closed installation.

You think cyberwarfare is still overhyped? It's quite a real threat, especially to our SCADA systems.

[Pholus]

160. Yes, because a cyberwarfare attack will not end civilization. The rest is espionage.

Games. If a mission critical system is left exposed and it gets slagged, it'll be a fool that leaves their stuff connected after that (convenience or no).

So cyberwarfare works once, perhaps twice, in the real world. Even the vaunted Stuxnet didn't stop its target and it was some pretty cerebral stuff.

[hobbit709]

75. what bank account?

and if somebody doesn't start doing something soon about our infrastructure, we won't need any "terror" incident to make it fail.

[defendandprotect]

164. We are cheering for freedom of the press .. vs "national security" state --

which conversely delivers national insecurity!

Our enemies know everything the US does -- every filthy thing --

it is American citizens the national security state is fighting against

finding out about those things!!

[Warpy]

28. Do you honestly think they didn't already know where most of it is?

Trust me, the locations of things like chemical plants have been well known for a very long time. They're hard to hide, you know.

Sheesh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. If the terrarist dont know about BAE Systems, for example

they are rank amateurs... serious.

This list of potential targets has been known for decades. In fact, some of those fuel lines are WELL MARKED for shit like construction...

They haven't hit those things ON PURPOSE to be frank and honest.

[Webster Green]

43. Assorted terrorists.

Can we please fucking move on, and get over nine-fucking-eleven. I, for one, am not afraid of any goddamn terrorists. I'm more scared that my beater van will break down than I am of getting killed by terrorists.

Assange is exposing fascist mutherfuckers. It's just too bad that they are our fascist mutherfuckers.

[snagglepuss]

46. Bang on. nt

[itzallanillusion]

80. Nailed it!

You nailed it! He is showing us how low of a threat "terrorism" really is and how we have been kept in fear all this time to keep the illusion going.. I hope he blows this thing wide open!

[axollot]

97. I call BS. I could care less about the US being embarrassed -

but please keep on with the freakin KOOl-AID.

PLEASE also check out my posts on Australia's State Supremes attempting to prove he did not commit a crime to be hunted down with the aid of Australia's PM.

Jeez.

We can either deal with what is going on and change our policies or put our head back in the sand.

Cheers
Sandy

[Jeffersons Ghost]

99. exactly

[Renew Deal]

120. Not just targets, but soft targets.

That aren't well defended and may be important to several nations.

[Pholus]

3. Yes, I'm sure that without this list they wouldn't have a clue where to start.

I believe Alec Baldwin's editorial says it best.

I'll worry about wikileaks when we worry about prosecuting the Plame affair properly.

[Individualist]

12. +1

[laughingliberal]

36. +2 nt

[grasswire]

4. His threat gives TPTB a good reason to shut down the Internets.

A chilling thought.

[PSPS]

7. Hardly. Doing so would negatively affect the top 1%, so it's off limits.

[hlthe2b]

9. Yes.. this thought has certainly occurred to me...

and chills me to the bone.

[PSPS]

11. Hardly. Doing so would negatively affect the top 1%, so it's off limits.

[Pholus]

21. Well, if TPTB have the power to shut it down, might as well be with this rather than waiting...

[krabigirl]

55. there would be war if that happened.

[Subdivisions]

8. I can't believe how many DUers there are who don't believe in a free press.

They would have him executed for doing what newspapers used to do, and that is to hold governments feet to the fire and publish previously classified information that came into their possession.

[seabeyond]

13. that is a load of crap. nt

[Subdivisions]

14. No it isn't. And from your post below....well.... n/t

[seabeyond]

16. yes it is. you had to work really really hard to tie it into freedom of press

of the past. really hard. and even at that it doesnt fly cause of the obvious.

[Subdivisions]

18. No I didn't...

Here's a GD thread that speaks about it right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9694888

"But the fact that so many prominent old school journalists are attacking him with such unbridled force is a symptom of the failure of traditional reporting methods to penetrate a culture of official secrecy that has grown by leaps and bounds since 9/11, and threatens the functioning of a free press as a cornerstone of democracy."

[seabeyond]

24. the old school didnt steal the mail out of these diplomats offices....

again, you are wrong. you twisted the freedom of speech argument to absurd.

[Subdivisions]

26. Neither did Assange or Wikileaks steal this mail from the offices of diplomats. They

are simply passing it on just as newspapers of old would have done.

[seabeyond]

79. and in the day, journalists would not put out gossip, but report relevant. nt

[axollot]

102. Thank you! And 'Deep Throat' spoke to REAL journalists and Ellsberg

walks freely after the Pentagon Papers. The Guardian isnt being shut down, the NYTs still reported what it received in the cables (which was the entire LOT). We are infiltrated by folks that are asking us to continue putting our head in the sand.

Assange didnt hack US computers (you know that) he had tried to work with US on info received - he sent it ahead to US/UK papers so some info could be redacted (hardly mentioned in the MSM or in conversations about this) to protect National Security.

The vitriol and attacks show how well fear works. Fear sells. I say drag it all into the harsh light of day. Prosecute those that did commit an illegal act on the JOB and not just Bradley Manning.

To go forward me must fix what is wrong within the US - these leaks only help all of us understand.

Cheers
Sandy

[seabeyond]

104. they were crimes. not gossip about an alpha dog. nt

[axollot]

109. Is there gossip in the cables? Yep. Is there more relevant info?

Yep. It's the relevant info I'm interested in. The BS our country does in OUR NAME with our MONEY.

Our domestic policy is in a heap atm and our foreign policy hasnt changed much since the 60's. I want OUT of Iraq and Afghanistan - the cables show we KNOW that lots of $$ come from the US and leave Afghanistan the minute they arrive. That wasnt what I voted for - did you?

Not trying to be aggressive on this but feel this is important. The crime committed was not by Assange but the original remover of the intel. This witch hunt for Assange is sad. Did you go after NYT or the leakers when it came to the Plame affair?

Cheers
Sandy

[seabeyond]

114. if you are going to have the info, and put it out, there comes responsibility. he failed

he is not a hero to dump a bunch of crap that does not need, nor should be dumped. if he is going to accept the responsibility, then dont lack the integrity to put out the stuff that is a crime, and leave the stuff that isnt. beyond that, he fails and is no hero.

and what you talk about money out of afgh. no shit. we have known for years. nothing new. maye you should be the one to have been informed.

[axollot]

121. One example of many - again DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

more than just gossip but that's all the US media is reporting. SURPISED?
cheers
Sandy

[seabeyond]

125. he is a piece of shit. but make him your hero. time will bare it out. betcha. nt

[axollot]

131. It's not all black and white out there. He isnt my hero - geez, like talking to the RW calling Obama

the messiah or some other such thing if one says something good about him. I do not live in such a stark world but a world where the reality is based in fact. Not hero worshipping or devil making.

Facts are facts.

Cheers
Sandy

[seabeyond]

132. of course it is not black and white. but sure how you addressed it with me

and assumptions you have made. they fuckin have threads dictating he is a HERO. on du. i did not make it up. they have posters stating he is a hero in pose looking beyond.... all noble. i didnt make this shit up

he now dumps all if all dont leave him alone, regardless. so.... whatever he does, he has made himself 'untouchable" and people cheer.

absurd. beyond absurd.

[axollot]

136. How many people have to suggest you be executed b4 you do something

to cover your bum?

Ya I've seen friends say he is a hero - he is just a guy dumping secrets - maybe the State Dept dump had to much 'gossip' in there, honestly there is a lot more in there - I'll dig it up and link you - yes a lot of it is confirmation of things we suspected.

Are you not the tiniest bit suspect when the US didnt care about the Iraq War dump (which was damaging beyond the one video) but after he said there was a banking info dump they pursue him with the full force of international law? That's not even the insurance. That's just what's coming next and that is when we mobilized to silence him. That's when an Interpol warrant (on a dropped case btw) goes red alert for him in Europe - it's crazy.

The more we know right now the better off democracy is and will be. Did you know that Assange has won a journalism award too? America is only talking gossip and about stopping him.

It takes some brass balls to do what Assange is doing - being the face of Wikileaks. The 'crime' was committed some time ago when the info was removed from US computers. Manning is awaiting trial for this. Assange is disclosing the RAW info.

Cheers
Sandy

[seabeyond]

144. before you do something? you mean hurt innocent people that have nothing to do with anything?

he took his risk, he didn't do it with responsibility or integrity and now he says.... he will dump all to hurt all without any responsibility.

you may be able to shrug that behavior off as acceptable collateral. i think of that behavior as no more respectable or acceptable than the worst that he is exposing.

he is a piece of shit.... scum. a creep. when he went to embarrassing, so childishly, he lost my support and respect. he had a great responsibility and he showed what he was about. and has since shown us more of the creep. blackmailing at the expense of others. and he will continue to show us the creep.

you shrug it off as insignificant, or warranted. just like bushco, cheney, shrug off the exposures of crimes as insignificant because they justified behavior.

no. difference.

regardless of how many times you are told, or number of ways you are told, you will ignore just like those that validate and justify the torturing. the ultimate in hypocrisy.

[OnyxCollie]

185. Whaddya know?

I made the same comparison earlier today and my post was deleted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9701164&mesg_id=9702855

Seabeyond's attacks suggest she supports the status quo, secrecy, spying, and punishment for those who dare to challenge authority. And that is simply flat out creepy.

[seabeyond]

191. what it does say, if someone does not fall in line with yawl, your pat answer is to call them rwer,

then go on to make a lot of assumptions and accusations with no foundation at all.

ya

real impressive

what do you know?

[OnyxCollie]

195. What do I know?

Far more than your small mind could ever comprehend.

Here's an excerpt from a paper I wrote recently about testing constraints of belief systems:

Testing Constraints of Belief Systems
©2010 OnyxCollie

“Behavior results from a process that involves, or functions as it entails, conscious choice” (Monroe & Maher, 1995). These choices are developed through a method by which the actor’s preferences are ordered and evaluated to determine which will provide the greatest utility and what course of action should be taken to achieve them (Monroe & Maher, 1995). These preferences include a predilection for survival (Chatterjee, 1972; Monroe & Maher, 1995). Established and uniform, these preferences are shaped through the acquisition of information (Jost et al., 2003) from opinion leaders whose function is to attach idea-elements together (Converse, 1964).

This process of acquiring information from authoritative sources to satisfy preferences which include survival is described as laying the foundation for a belief system (Converse, 1964; Kruglanski & Thompson, 1999a, 1999b as cited in Jost et al., 2003; McGuire, 1985, as cited in Jost et al., 2003). Converse (1964) and Kunda (1990, as cited in Jost et al., 2003) suggest that this belief system is regulated by multiple constraints. The constraints offer a probability that a specific attitude held in a belief system will result in certain other attitudes being held (Converse, 1964). These constraints are identified as logical, psychological, and social (Converse, 1964). Jost et al. (2003) further expand on the concept by describing these constraints as existential (fear, curiosity), epistemic (authoritarian, liberal), and ideological (group dominance, egalitarianism). According to Jost et al. (2003), belief systems fulfill psychological needs.

Within the constraints, belief systems provide a principled doctrine by which new information obtained is compared to prior associations in order to choose a course which provides the greatest utility (Jost et al., 2003). However, these belief systems do not operate in a vacuum; uncertain conditions and numerous variables can influence personal motivations by invoking emotional responses, leading to a reformulation of logic that while not syllogistically sound, is principled nonetheless (Jost et al., 2003).

Information gathering in early childhood requires the formation of relationships (Weber & Federico, 2007). Attachment theory states that relationships are sought in order to reduce anxiety and provide a sense of security (Sroufe & Waters, 1977, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007). Successful proximity-seeking efforts create a secure attachment style, inspiring self-confidence, curiosity and an openness to new experiences (Ainsworth, Blehar, Waters, & Wall, 1978, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007). Failed proximity-seeking efforts result in anxiety stemming from the lack of security, compounded by distress over the failure to establish a relationship (Mikulincer & Shaver, 2003, as cited in Weber and Federico, 2007). Recurring failure or inconsistency (Ainsworth et al., 1978, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007) in proximity-seeking efforts creates two insecure attachment styles; anxious and avoidant (Weber & Federico, 2007).

Anxious attachment style is associated with fixations on proximity-seeking and emotional support (Weber & Federico, 2007). Avoidant attachment style abandons proximity-seeking and instead relies on self-dependence to control anxiety (Weber & Federico, 2007). Brennan, Clark, & Shaver (1998, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007) have determined that anxious and avoidant attachment styles in adults manifest themselves as either elevated states of arousal with a fixation on close relationships, or as an emotional disconnect with an aversion to close relationships, respectively.

Duckitt (2001, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007) proposes that childrearing practices lead to the development of personality traits which endorse world views that form ideology. Children who have attained a secure attachment style are open to new information more than those with either of the two insecure attachment styles (Cassidy, 1986, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007), as well as being less dogmatic and less reliant on ethnic stereotypes (Mikulincer, 1997, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007). Additionally, Mikulincer & Florian (2000, as cited in Weber & Federico, 2007) have shown that secure attachment styles “mitigate the effect of mortality salience on the denigration of moral transgressors” (p. 394).

It has been demonstrated that children who have attained insecure attachment styles later as adults develop Right Wing Authoritarian (RWA) ideologies, in which the world is viewed as a dangerous place (Altemeyer, 1998; Duckitt & Fisher, 2003, as cited by Weber & Federico, 2007), or Social Dominance Order (SDO) ideologies, in which the world is viewed as a competitive jungle (Duckitt, 2001, as cited by Weber & Federico, 2007). RWA’s are defined by a deference to authority figures, an endorsement of severe punishment by authority figures, and a high degree of conventionalism (Altemeyer, 2006). SDO’s differ from RWA’s in that rather than embracing authoritarianism as a means of protection against an out-group which threatens society, SDO’s feel that society has already fallen and that only the strong shall survive, prompting group domination, punishment, and humiliation against out-groups (Altemeyer, 1998). Altemeyer (1998, as cited in Jost et al., 2003) and Pratto, Sidanious, Stallworth & Malle (1994, as cited in Jost et al., 2003) have shown that SDO’s correlate with Republican party identification.

In response to criticism that scales of authoritarianism neglected left-wing personalities, Rokeach (1960, as cited in Jost et al., 2003) developed a scale of dogmatism which included measures of logically contradictory beliefs and denial of contradictions in belief systems. According to Rokeach:

All belief-disbelief systems serve two powerful and conflicting sets of
motives at the same time: the need for a cognitive framework to know
and to understand and the need to ward off threatening aspects of
reality. To the extent that the cognitive need to know is predominant
and the need to ward off threat is absent, open systems should
result. . . . But as the need to ward off threat becomes stronger, the
cognitive need to know should become weaker, resulting in more
closed belief systems (p. 67, as quoted in Jost et al., 2003, p. 346).

Thus, closed belief systems reduce ambiguity-induced anxiety by satisfying the need to know (Rokeach, 1960, as cited in Jost et al., 2003).

Understanding of issues and concepts is dependent upon the strength of the connotation associated with them, as well as effectiveness of the constraints by which the referred issues and concepts operate (Converse, 1964). In his research, Converse (1964) tests the hypothesis that if one idea-element in the belief system should change, an individual must either change his position on the issue or change his position on the party. Examination reveals a majority of the population sampled are unable to express an understanding of the constraints affecting political parties and issues without being prompted by political elites (Converse, 1964). Furthermore, the majority of the population view the treatment they and other groups received from political parties as their primary means of identifying parties (Converse, 1964).


Altemeyer, B. (1998). The other “authoritarian personality.” Advances in Experimental Social Psychology, 30, 47–92.
Altemeyer, B. (2006). The authoritarians. Manitoba: University of Manitoba.
Chatterjee, P. (1972). The classical balance of power theory. Journal of Peace Research, 9(1), 51-61.
Converse, P. (1964). The nature of belief systems in mass publics. In D. Apter (Ed.), Ideology and discontent (pp. 206–261). New York: Free Press.
Jost, J. T., Glaser, J., Kruglanski, A. W., & Sulloway, F. J. (2003). Political conservatism as motivated social cognition. Psychological Bulletin, 129(3), 339-375.
Monroe, K.R. & Maher, K.H. (1995). Psychology and rational actor theory. Political Psychology, 16(1), 1-21.
Weber, C., & Federico, C. M. (2007). Interpersonal attachment and patterns of belief. Political Psychology, 28(4), 389-416.

Thanks for providing a case study of authoritarian personality.

[seabeyond]

196. damn, you are an ass. you have attacked with name calling every. single. post.

all that garbage you gathered, left unread. small minded? no.... a simple, fuck you

[OnyxCollie]

197. Bwahahahaha!

Your antics provide great amusement.

[axollot]

103. Sadly, I must concur that you are wrong on this - turn the tv off to get your info. n/t

[hlthe2b]

15. Please don't accuse me of that... I have never implied that...

and it is not fair, Subdivisions. I have a right to put out a rhetorical/devil's advocate type question and if you take the time to look, you would see that I have not posted anything of the kind. I am looking at where the "line in the sand" might be, however.

[Subdivisions]

22. Who said I was accusing you of that. I wasn't. Your post is a good one.

I was making the observation that too many DUers would rather see Assange get assassinated despite the fact that he hasn't broken any laws regarding the release of this information.

[hlthe2b]

34. Thank you for clarifying... n/t

[davidinalameda]

30. guess you missed Senator Kerry's comments

Kerry, a leading anti-war activist in the Vietnam era, rejected comparisons between WikiLeaks and the Pentagon Papers.

“This has no relationship to something like that,” he said. “This is voyeurism.”

http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/1210/Kerry_WikiLeaks_could_lead_to_recall_of_ambassadors.html

[Subdivisions]

33. Oh, well if Kerry says it, I guess that makes it so. Doesn't he own stock in

the TSA naked scanners?

Oh, and BTW, the great John Kerry lost to gwbush. I'm not a fan.

[azul]

60. There is no proof that he lost.

The election results were unverifiable, and something went wrong in Ohio.

[Kalun D]

68. And

Kerry laid down because he made a deal with his fellow bonesman to let him have it.

[defendandprotect]

166. True ... another stolen election in 2004 ... with no response by Democratic Party ...

in Kerry's favor I have heard that they immediately took a peek at it

and saw that it was AGAIN "a very powerful steal" -- and decided to fold.

And that's pretty much been his and the Dem Party positions since then -- FOLD.

[krabigirl]

56. Too bad he isn't an anti-war activist in this era.

[EFerrari]

59. When they say stuff like that, I'm so glad Dan is still here

to say otherwise.

[defendandprotect]

167. +100% -- What WikiLeaks is revealing is the same as Pentagon Papers revealed....

corruption in government at the highest levels --

Especially as we subvert the rights of other sovereign nations in our

self-interests in taking over the natural resources of others -- including by

illegal and immoral wars of aggression --

Two new perpetual wars of aggression -- two more new "bright shining lies" -- !!

[Le Taz Hot]

107. Would that be the same John Kerry

who voted "yes" on the IWR and the Patriot Act? The one who managed to LOSE to the worst. president. ever.? That John Keery?

[defendandprotect]

165. Kerry is a one time anti-war activist ... haven't seen much of that recently....

Kerry might have been a prime candidate for holding hearings into the

lies of WMD/Mushroom clouds which got us into this oil war --

and Kerry himself is of course supported by oil industry ... is he not?

These are oil wars --

[azul]

49. Why do corporations and governments have the ability and rights

now to know all of individual people's private affairs, but not vice versa?

The media's main function in a democracy is to keep the public informed of corruption and criminality in all places of power that can do people and their surroundings harm, be it people or businesses or government. How can it fulfill this function if the media outlets are owned and edited by the very centers of power that it is their job to investigate and monitor?

People have the right to know what government actions are being done in their name and with their money. I also think that businesses have no right to privacy in their operations. They should be charted to do some public good or service and should be monitored for misbehavior and dissolved if they are found to be doing harm. Jobs are important, but not as important as life and species diversity and a sustainable population.

Corporations and wealthy people and governments have shown that they cannot be trusted with media ownership because of the power of propaganda. That, I think, is what these wikileaks are all about: abuse of secrecy and the failure of the MSM to keep the public informed about it.

[defendandprotect]

168. +1000% ....

Corporations are replacing sovereign nations --

and our corporate-press, needless to say, is offering no challenge to

its war on nature which has already given us Global Warming and total

pollution of the environment!!

[WolverineDG]

90. Stealing classified information is not "free press"

& what Assange is doing now is nothing more than emotional blackmail by an attention-seeking fame whore. "Pay attention to me & do as I demand, or I'll release more stuff." That or something similar is said every time the media spotlight drifts towards something else.

:eyes:


dg

[defendandprotect]

170. If you understand what Pres. Carter explained ....

there is information classified higher than our atomic weapons --

information that the president, himself, could gain no access to --

and that verdict was delivered to him by none other than George H. W. Bush/

head of the CIA at the time!

Most of your "debate" is a personal attack on Assange --

This whistleblowing attempt is every bit as essential as The Pentagon Papers

whistleblowing --

and it should highlight for us all how dismal this administration has been in

holding anyone responsible for the lies which created these two new "bright shining

lies" of perpetual war for oil --

and how lacking in any call for accountability our corporate-press has been, as well!

[WolverineDG]

178. It's not whistleblowing; it's attention-whoring

I've sat back & just watched this story unfold & what I noticed is that every time the press stops mentioning Wikileaks or Assange, he makes some sort of demand (that Obama resign--puh-fucking-leeze) or issues a threat (if you arrest me, I'll release some really bad stuff) to get the focus back on *HIM*.

The guy doesn't even qualify as a terrorist because *real* terrorists don't make threats & stomp their feet when they don't get what they want. They don't tip their hand. They don't act all smarty-pants & brag about their unbreakable passwords. (boy, is that ever waving red meat in front of a wolf) They just *DO* whatever it is they're going to do & let the rest of us pick up the pieces.

And, for what it's worth, I don't think gossipy cables are "every bit as important as the Pentagon Papers." :eyes:

dg

[defendandprotect]

179. Rather what I'm hearing is viewers saying there is NO coverage of the cables....

Didn't know that Assange said Obama should resign -- !!

I happen to agree with him -- I'd like to see a RECALL if we could do it except

it would leave us with Biden -- *

What we've seen is constant threats against Assange by "law" acting for US --

that couldn't be clearer.

What we do see when things quite down is US rushing to present new "terrarist" threat

evidence -- sometimes it comes in very handy for other purposes --

for instance the "underwear" bomber -- !!

Has the corporate-press even mentioned yet the scanner company is Chertoff's?

You remember Chertoff? Homeland Security? Seems he's had this company 6 years with

it going nowhere -- until part of the STIMULUS money just happened to fall into his

lap in contracts where all American airports would now be using his scanners!!

And how many Americans still believe in the threat of the "underwear" bomber?

:rofl:



PS:
Name calling isn't debate --



*

We have Biden to thank for Clarence Thomas on the SC --

And Biden has spent more than a year now trying to encourage Israel to attack Iran!

Biden's line is that Isreal would be "justified" in doing so!!

[axollot]

101. Yes. It saddens me to see it too. n/t

[seabeyond]

10. i think the dude is a piece of shit. what is done, is done. people will have to clean up the mess

he creates. like there isnt enough to be done.

[Pholus]

76. When my 6 year old comes in the kitchen and reports that the 3 year old knocked over the cereal bowl

I don't blame the 6 year old for pointing out that the mess exists.

And, unlike our government, the 3 year old doesn't know better when the mess is being created.

[seabeyond]

78. when my 6 yr old tells me something in confidence to figure out an issue, i dont put on the net

for the world to see his dilemna and descriptions he uses that might be less than flattering or insulting.

these are not crimes. if the man wanted to expose crimes, then so be it. this.... is nothing but irresponsible and lacking character and integrity to get attention

[Pholus]

82. No, you'd apparently put it in a database accessible by MILLIONS of individuals.

What REALLY shocks me is WHY anyone would think that this stuff should be outside of the handful of people who would be directly involved.

But that is another entire threat that should be titled: "What the HELL was the U.S. Government THINKING to not compartmentalize secret information."

EDIT: I mean "sekrit" not basic, so changed the word.

[seabeyond]

85. ah... so now shift over to blaming the victim. you know.... i dont care if they left the keys in

car. the person who stole the car is the criminal. not the one that left the keys there. maybe stupid. but not the criminal.

[Pholus]

88. Did you feel that way about the Plame affair? Did slapping the "secret" label make that all better?

[seabeyond]

96. outing a cia agent is a crime. calling putin an alpha dog is not. nt

[Pholus]

161. Perhaps we classify too much then?

[seabeyond]

192. someones personal emails.... i dont think that has anything to do with classification. let mate

get into your emails and post on net. let boss gather emails and distribute to fellow employees.....

this is not classified shit. and it is not crimes.

[axollot]

106. Again please read more sources. I've even posted

some links from letters to the PM from Australian Supreme Court solicitor's in defense of Assange.


They are in GD from today.

Cheers
sandy

[WillyT]

19. Yes... I Can't Wait For The One On Bank Of America !!!

Or whoever...

:woohoo:

:kick:

[leftstreet]

29. +1

:woohoo:

[defendandprotect]

23. US has been warmongering and making war for 30 years now ... THAT's what

we have to pay attention to and worry about --

US is the terrorist nation!!!



A little fear-pushing ... ?


The latest release is a document that lists those worldwide facilities vital to our security, including those critically vital to public health and economic and national security... Am I wrong to be tremendously concerned about this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11923766

We've had troops all over the world for more than 60 years now --

We have more than 20 bases in Iraq -- and a Taj Mahal of a new embassy there --

We're really big in building embassies -- there's another one in the work --

more than $750 million?

But, we can't afford MEDICARE FOR ALL!!!

[axollot]

110. They want progressives to fight over this issue - they want a divide

they want to create doubt about Assange's character and focus on him rather than stuff we may actually get pissed off about - ya know like the billions leaving Afghanistan.

Wrote heaps up thread and if u missed it I posted in GD about Australian Supreme Court solicitors writing the PM to stop going after Assange, an Australian that has committed no crime in Australia.

Cheers m8
:hug: always good to see ya!

Sandy
edit: typo

[defendandprotect]

163. +1000% .... completely agree ---

but there are a few Americans who will always go for "national security"

and torture!!

Did just catch up with your up-thread posts -- you're dealing with someone

I have on "ignore" -- !!

Didn't know about the Australian SC solicitors supporting Assange --

easy to miss a lot here these days!!

Am trying to catch up with new articles -- Assange going to submit to questioning

by British?


:hug:

[TreasonousBastard]

25. I'm concerned, but what am I supposed to do besides complain one way or the other?

[earthside]

31. Not concerned in the slightest.

From the report:

"The definition of US national security revealed by the cable is broad and all embracing.

In addition to obvious pieces of strategic infrastructure like communications hubs, gas pipelines and so on, it contains, amongst other things, a cobalt mine in Congo, an anti-snake venom factory in Australia and an insulin plant in Denmark."

And:

"Of course the critical question is that raised by the Times newspaper's headline: Is this really a listing of potential targets that might be of use to a terrorist?

The cable contains a simple listing. In many cases towns are noted as the location but not actual street addresses."

Wikileaks is a heroic step in the effort to bring "People Power" to the world.
Let's all hope that this is just the beginning of a new era of truth, honesty and sovereign responsibility.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Well perhaps you need to know why

BAE systems, a BRITISH company, is part of the American Industrial complex, and builds mission critical components for the US.

the British cable systems, as well as satellite stations are essential for US communications and battlespace awareness in case of an European war.

In other worlds, what you are seeing are Imperial needs.

It is confirming the behavior of the US as am Imperial power. That is all it is doing.

In my case it is not lack of concern... it is just the confirmation of how deep the tentacles of Empire go.

Oh and BAE is also critical in the building of things like the Eurofighter for a wholly European system but also the F-35, which is being adopted by multiple service arms, not just ours.

Oh and this is probably having a few editors at Janes going... ok buddy I won this bet.

[laughingliberal]

40. +1000 nt

[WillyT]

48. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

:kick:

[Azathoth]

81. So the insulin plant and the anti-snake venom factory are all part of the grand Imperial Design?

Bsides, given that BAE software and hardware plays an intrical role in both our offensive *and* defensive capabilities, I'd certainly consider them a strategic asset for more reasons than simple Imperial ambition.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Yes, you need secondary and tertiary facilities

in case yours get knocked down.

[Azathoth]

129. So by your definition, every conceivable defense, economic, and public health asset

is part of the great imperial design. I'll bet those poor public health majors didn't realize that they were actually being trained to be footsoldiers in the great imperial machinery... :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. That is how empires think

it is not an American thing but an Imperial thing.

The US behaves in predictable ways...

And believe it or not, yes, yes they are. And Health Workers have been used in Imperial designs across history. I could recommend a few books, but I take it would fall in deaf ears, so why bother? Suffice it to say that the design of Lagos Nigeria, with the help of yes... HEALTH WORKERS... was an Imperial design.

[defendandprotect]

171. +1000% ...psychiatrists used to betray prisoners who were to be TORTURED ....

they were put to discovering their psychological weaknesses!!

MKULTRA another example of CIA/US going nuts -- McGill Unversity experiments which

were basically torture --

How far would any of that have gotten without "national security" cover up?

[Azathoth]

128. self-delete n/t

[tekisui]

93. Running an Empire is a dirty, messy business.

You summed it up perfectly.

The more that is revealed the better. It is long past time we quit acting like an Empire.

[axollot]

111. Yes it is! Isnt that what bin Laden of all people was ticked off about too?

The US Empire.

To be clear to everyone - I do not condone the actions of Osama, however, I also do not condone the murders for the US empire either. I do not believe any child or adult should be 'collateral damage' regardless of their skin colour.

It's high freakin time we stopped acting like an Empire! We would have more money for our social policies and programs. Less people would be living in such abject poverty.

What does our imperialism give the average tax payer? Do we need Embassies? Of course we do. Do we need bases all over the world and in Iraq the biggest, most grand of them all? Hell no.

When is it enough?!?

Cheers
Sandy
edit to add: watch my name end up on the no fly list AND edit typo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Nah Osama is pissed about our presence in Saudi Arabia

which Bush pulled out off, and Obama is going back into.

He is also pissed about modernity and western culture and if the UK was the symbol of it, he'd be against the UK... just like he was pissed about the Soviets conquering a member of the Uma... which we were very happy to help him fight.

And when the Empire collapses it will not be all joy and immediate money into social services, nor will things just go on just not an Empire. That is a big misconception. It will happen sooon... there are economic markers of this... and it will NOT be pretty. It has it's benefits... so the Dollar no longer being the reserve currency will have severe, definite, economic effects in the US... just saying, and pointing this out. Late stage Empires are NEVER fun to live in,

[axollot]

127. You have made excellent points. As to the Empire -

no it will be nasty for the rest of my life and will possibly improve in the life time of my grandchildren (if I have any - nearing 40). Still it has to end sometime to improve. Germany survived rather well after WWII with help of course and I am sure we wouldnt be 'alone' either.

Great post tho, thanks!!

Cheers
Sandy

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. After WW II Germany had a Sherman plan to help

we won't... so your better analogy will be probably the Germany of 1919... not a happy thought.

It will be nasty for a generation with economic contractions and all that.

One of the markers, we are starting to have a brain flight... yes researchers leaving the US for other lands.

[axollot]

139. LOL. I 'brain flew' out in the 80s! My dumb arse was talked back in here

LOL.

Sadly, I suspect you are correct re 1919. As things are going right now we are headed for a 1930s style depression. People have to travel farther and wider to find/get work. It's a very scary thought.

Russia suffers still, despite it's new wealth. I can hunt, fish, grow, build if need too. heh.

What other markers have gone by? I'm sure I've seen them too but quite interested in your pov. Some time ago the US scared the chit out of me and I've been wanting to leave - although Australia isnt impressing me to much either. (economically they are doing better than we are atm, tho)

Cheers
Sandy

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. Steel and industrial production

at one point they were treated as a matter of national security... due to WW II actually. Then came Reagan. Our steel production has continued to go down since the 1980s, and some of our steel mills have been taken to points east, lock, stock and barrel. Empires in decline are hollowed out from an industrial perspective.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. It has it's benefits too

the dollar is a stable currency since it IS the reserve currency. It is not all bad, or all good.

And reality is whoever is elected President, it don't matter WHO, really... that is one of their jobs. And they will keep fighting to keep it until the moment they can't. When that happen it will not be pretty in the US at all. On the plus side this fall may come as early as the debt ceiling vote... see that thing about reserve currency.

[struggle4progress]

38. Well, now we know how the 112th Session of Congress will begin

[laughingliberal]

42. I'm a lot more concerned about how our lame stream media seems to be pushing a theme of the leaks...

amounting to no more that some high level gossip sessions. I've seen no reporting in the American press on several very significant issues where it's apparent our government lied to us.

[hedgetrimmer]

45. Exactly!

[gateley]

50. +1

[RKP5637]

53. MSM is getting more and more dumbed down, even "lame stream media" is a

complement anymore. It's horrible. A sound bite here, one there, some individuals reporting that don't even know what they're talking about, giggles during a newscast like party gossip, it's not even worth the viewing time anymore. And reporting during the daytime is completely lame.

[krabigirl]

58. I stopped watching it years ago. I watch some clips on youtube and even that is puke-worthy.

[EFerrari]

57. The corporate media are doing a Bruce Ivins on Julian now.

They will increasingly portray him as unstable, sex crazed, terroristic and arrogant. It's the same drum beat, imo.

[hlthe2b]

65. Agree... The media handling is (unsurprisingly) appalling

[rainbow4321]

73. No kidding, I kept watching cable news last week for in depth

coverage, maybe taking some of the more serious cables and picking them apart, waited for some of the talking heads to say "what the hell was the US thinking when they did/said/authorized that".

Glad I didn't hold my breath. Me thinks that all of the networks' brass have been told by the gov to not go into details of the cables.

[Catherina]

44. I certainly hope this is a "game changer".

Our "public health ... and national security" are just pretexts the MIC hides behind. The real key here is "economic security" which means nothing more than running rampant over the rest of the world for profit.

I'm not concerned about the release one bit. On the contrary, I'm all for it. Join the ranks of the civilized world America.

[still_one]

61. The problem isn't wikileaks, that is just a diversion. The problem is that incompentence allowed

this to happen, and I would almost bet that those responsible for the lax security will keep their jobs

just like all those wonderful bankers were allowed to keep their jobs, even though WE bailed them out

It is pathetic that people have forgotten that the complete breakdown of our security is the result of this, NOT wikileaks

It is also outrageous that before wikileaks we were lied into a war that killed over a million people and gave us the patriot act

[TexasObserver]

64. Not concerned in the least, and you shouldn't be, either.

You're afraid of the wrong people.

The people who drag us into dangerous wars in terrible places live right here in America. The people who threaten our security live right here in America, and do so by pushing the US into horrible policies and actions the worldwide.

Fear the people creating your FEAR.

[hlthe2b]

66. Fear of empowering those who drag us into dangerous wars...

push US into horrible policies and actions the worldwide. Concern over the backfire effect that could come from providing those people the "ammunition" to enact even worse policies--like restricting, censoring/ shutting down the internet.

I point to the split here on DU over the TSA tactics that consumed discussion for more than a week. A very large proportion of DUers defended these potentially devastating policies with respect to civil rights- because they bought the line that it was effective and necessary to protect us. Propaganda to some. Necessary responses to others.

[RKP5637]

105. +1, n/t

[Kalun D]

69. If Wikileaks is Real

it's a good thing, our government is a corporate cesspool that needs to be exposed and cleaned out.

but I think Wikileaks is a fake CIA front, just an excuse to regulate the internet.

[Turborama]

70. I'm currently on the fence about this one

And am interested in reading others' thought on it.

Thanks for starting the discussion. K&R

[TorchTheWitch]

84. what purpose does the public seeing it serve?

What possible interest could this be for the public? Why is it worth putting out information that has no purpose for the public to know but could be devistating should nefarious characters see it? Seems to me the only purpose it serves at all in making it public is by putting it in the hands of people that would use it to cause grave harm. How could that possibly be considered a good thing?

I would have thought that Wikileaks would be selective in what it revealed and would only reveal those items that were important for the public to know but it seems clear that this isn't the case. This makes me nervous about what Wikileaks does and what they might do in the future.

Seems to me that if you're going to put something out in the public that risks harm, particularly devistating harm, it damn well better be REALLY super important information for the public to know.

[pipi_k]

87. that's how I see it too...

If more people would be hurt by the public NOT knowing, then yes...I'm in favor of making the information available.

But if there's a possibility that people would be in danger because of the release of said information, then it's irresponsible, to say the very least.

[Azathoth]

89. +1

WikiLeaks is slitting their own throat with this stuff, and it's truly sad because they are a potentially vital international resource.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pholus]

77. I believe that we're supposed to be terrified of "extremists" not Islam.

[pipi_k]

86. I think Wikileaks should release

personal information on all Americans.

Then we'll see how many people support a "free press" when their information is out there in the public sector for anyone to read. I have no doubt that Wikileaks would become Public Enemy #1. People's income, medical records, social security numbers, etc....all would suddenly more Top Secret than US State Secrets.

:eyes:

[axollot]

116. One only need to google one's own name to find out personal info. n/t

[pipi_k]

141. I've tried it....not much on myself, but...

even for people I have found info on, it still doesn't include the real juicy stuff like medical records, debts, whether people are on prescription meds and what for, income, how much they owe to creditors, etc.

If Wikileaks managed to publish information like that about regular Americans, there would be a huge outcry, even among the people who think Wikileaks is one step down from God.

[axollot]

162. To apply for a job or place to live you get credit checks -

which show how much you owe to creditors, including doctors etc. You have to pay to buy the credit report/background checks. Most Americans agree to them for simple things.

They really didnt get much of what you described out of the cables either. :shrug:

Cheers
Sandy

[tekisui]

94. Not the least bit concerned.

I also don't give a shit about embarrassing the government. I do revel in the revelations of the inner-workings of a dying Empire.


And, I quit being afraid of terrorists a long time ago.

[emanymton]

95. An Act Of Revolutionary Courage?

.

The information being 'leaked' by the WikiLeaks document dumps shows a group of conspirators totally committed to performing nefarious acts and lying about it all the while they perform these acts. The very same group of conspirators then tell the people of USA that the leaker has jeopardized the integrity of USA.

And _WE_ of course are blindly to accept the stories by the conspirators?!

Countries have agencies that "create news". False or misleading stories are written and planted with the hopes that our news media will pick up on them and distract or redirect the public. Realize that many people lie and do so quite frequently. Those that are very good liars, often can rise to positions of power. They often use misdirection and create or feed other conflicts to take attention off of the truth.

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

One can lie oneself to power. One will not lie oneself to the truth. Tell us why we should believe the WikiLeaks document dumps are not an act of revolutionary courage?

Ema Nymton
~@:o?
.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cherchez la Femme]

108. How secret, exactly, were these large installations?

But yes, a bit disturbing.
However they should be well guarded and defended. Don't we spend enough on Defense to watch over our important sites?

[TwilightGardener]

112. Why be concerned? It's amusement to many here, and nothing more. And if something

gets targeted because of that list...well, even more amusing (ha ha, we get what's coming to us!). Silly, stupid United States, trying to keep anything secret--what gives us the right to seek that advantage?

[whatchamacallit]

113. Yes I'm concerned

that they'll stop him before he brings the sick evil beast to it's knees.

[TwilightGardener]

115. What sick evil beast?

[treestar]

117. Just another thing with too much drama

Every single little thing "changes the world forever."

Not one complaint for two whole days about tSA groping! And that was going to bring on a revolution.

It seems these leaks have leaked very little of importance and that is why the leaker is the main subject of discussion. His legal problems, etc.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

119. I'm a lot more concerned about the suppression of the truth by our "democratic" government.

And, then trying to tell us that keeping the people in the dark is good for them.

[hunter]

126. Terrorists would never have known the World Trade Center existed...

... if evidence of its existence had been kept secret. :eyes:

[axollot]

130. lol.

[defendandprotect]

172. In fact ....

in '93, they wouldn't have even known how to make a bomb or had the money

for it if FBI hadn't helped them!!


:eyes:

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[social_critic]

140. Too harsh, I think

I agree we haven't been behaving properly, but this doesn't we should lay down and fail to criticize Assange if he's releasing information which will lead to terrorist attacks all over the world. Why can't we all learn to get along?

[hlthe2b]

145. I suspect I am glad I missed the deleted comment to me...

Why we can not explore this issue without the personal attacks on those asking the question, is beyond me. I have proffered no opinion nor criticism either way. I am simply playing devil's advocate and asking whether this would change the dynamic, with the release of this particular list.

Thanks for your common sense approach.

[defendandprotect]

173. If you believe that anything released will "lead to terrorist attacks all over the world"....

then I think you have to go back to one of the first squares on patriarchy/elites/empire

and begin reading all over again.

Presume you were also frightened of what The Pentagon Papers were going to bring?

All it did was expose the bright shining lies of war --

which the corporate-press continues to lie about even today!



One great place to start is with the "underwear" bomber --

Chertoff/Homeland Security -- and the stimulus money being used to BUY Chertoff's

scanners now used by airline industry in America! A product Chertoff couldn't move

in 6 years of trying!!

Come on -- !!

[fascisthunter]

137. more concerned with folks going along with Fear

after 9-11, I think people need to learn to not jump the gun. Most know this info embarrasses many officials around the world... why? because they were doing shit THEY weren't supposed to do now they want to shut down free press.

[defendandprotect]

174. +1000% --

exactly --

[DirkGently]

138. Is any of this information actually "secret," or is this just another, "Shh, don't give terrorists

ideas" complaint? We cannot afford to buy off on the notion that anything anyone in government claims a right to keep secret is sacrosanct because you could somehow, theoretically, attempt to create a hypothetical situation in which it would benefit a theoretical "terrorist" who, theoretically, has the means, motive, and desire to use that information to harm someone.

"Terrorists" aren't magical bogeyman poised to turn any whisper of information into catastrophe. That is an invented premise which should carry zero weight at this point because of its history of abuse as a way to silence criticism and the free flow of information in general.

Unless someone is preparated to demonstrate which "terrorist" is very likely to do what, exactly, with what particular information was unobtainable through any other easier source, like an almanac or Google, we're going to have to carry on with our lives, including the aggressive pursuit of information and the discussion of the same, with the understanding that there have always been, and always will be, people in the world interested in doing bad things.

We cannot permit it to be enough for people in power who are lying and concealing and misrepresenting the facts to tell everyone to shut up because they know what's good for us and if we don't the Terrorists will get us. It's an old, dirty trick, and we have suffered more than enough from its use for a good long while now.

ENOUGH.

editted for Englesh.

[Vinca]

142. I'm not concerned in the least over the "leaks." Think about it.

Who has caused more harm to the United States and the world at large . . . Al Qaeda or the American government? What could they possibly do to us as a result of the leaks that we haven't already done to ourselves?

[yurbud]

146. people who live in those countries don't need to be told where they are.

[xor]

147. On the other hand, security through obscurity isn't really security either.

[Better Believe It]

148. Links to the documents please. Let us read and decide for ourselves what the documents really say.

[hlthe2b]

152. I provided a link to the article discussing what my thread discusses

If you google, I'm sure you will find the actual list. I won't link to the original documents, even if I had them (and I do not). Likewise, I suspect most DUers will not, out of respect and concern re: repercussions for Skinner and his website. That, of course does not preclude you from googling to find them or going to the wikileaks website.

[Better Believe It]

154. I believe you can link to the documents without any repercussions to DU. Check with Skinner.

But, the question remains, have you actually read those documents or are you depending on the mass corporate media for objective and factual information on their content?

[hlthe2b]

156. In this case, the listing of critical sites worldwide...

I feel fully comfortable with BBC (and the Guardian's) description of what is there. I generally do have more faith in both BBC and the Guardian than US news outlets. SO, no, I do not feel the need to download the list. Your mileage may vary, but on this particular document, I do not feel a personal need to do so.

[Better Believe It]

149. Government made those "sensitive" documents available to 2.5 million people!

Kristinn Hrafnsson, a WikiLeaks spokesman, told The Times that the list had been made available to 2.5 million people including military personnel and private contractors by the U.S. government, saying this was a "very wide distribution for information claimed to be of such high sensitivity."

"In terms of security issues, while this cable details the strategic importance of assets across the world, it does not give any information as to their exact locations, security measures, vulnerabilities or any similar factors, though it does reveal the U.S. asked its diplomats to report back on these matters," he told the paper.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40526224/ns/us_news-securit ...

[defendandprotect]

175. Interesting -- US government evidence against its own claims ... !!

[bobthedrummer]

150. I'm not concerned about that at all, n/t.

[JackRiddler]

151. "The definition of US national security revealed by the cable is broad and all embracing."

[bvar22]

153. The "terrasts" could have NEVER found the WTC or the Pentagon...

without WikiLeaks.

The argument that Wikileaks is damaging our security is just plain nonsense.
"They" already "know".

[Jamastiene]

155. Question:

Why would the US State Department compile such a list to begin with? That was an incredibly dumb move to put all of that information in one place, then not protect that information. That was just not smart at all.

I'm conflicted on this issue. On the one hand, I think the US government was dumb to compile that kind of information in one place and then not protect it, but on the other, I can see why it might not be such a good idea to release everything.

I just wish they would release the bank information and past information that confirms or denies what many of us have suspected, but not put people who are currently active at risk.

I'm definitely conflicted. Seems to me that the burden of stopping the leaks lies not with Wikileaks, but with the US government. The leaks need to be plugged. Loose lips sink ships. It is a very old saying, but it is still true. If the US government would be less careless with such sensitive information, Wikileaks wouldn't be "embarrassing" the US government by reporting the information.

I'm definitely leaning toward publish the shit out of it, simply because I'm pissed that they (the US government) can't keep the US's private shit private, dammit. They are not doing their job. If any of the rest of us fall down on our jobs, we don't get such leniency.

My biggest question: Why is no one outraged that the US government hasn't plugged the leaks? If these leaks truly put us at risk, then it is the US government's job to plug the damn leaks and defend us. No leaks = no more spread of sensitive information. I'm surprised I'm the only one thinking of that part of the equation.

[hlthe2b]

157. I tend to agree with much of what you've posted...

I too would feel much more comfortable with revelations of corruption than what might be truly sensitive security information. But, I do remain conflicted over the entire affair.

I want the bank info and the BP stuff out as well. So, maybe I am being hypocritical, but I really do think I am just withholding judgment and providing benefit-of-the doubt (to Wiki) until this all plays out.

[Jamastiene]

158. I feel like I can't make a final conclusion yet, because

I do think some of what they are leaking is important information that we have been denied by MSM, which is so corrupt. MSM are not doing their jobs on reporting important information on a myriad of information.

So, on the one hand, exposing corruption in any realm where exists is a good thing in my book, but on the other hand, I would hate to see something catastrophic happen due to something sensitive leaking.

I still wonder why the government hasn't plugged the leaks. I still say the onus is on them to plug the leaks.

[defendandprotect]

177. Maybe they'll get some new "Plumbers" .... and we'll have some real fun again?????

[Greyhound]

180. Prove this has anything to do with our security, and by 'our' I mean the people of this nation.

I couldn't care less about the fortunes of corporations, so-called intelligence services, the military, the global banking and insurance industries, etc. We'd be better off without most of them, and the things you mentioned are irrelevant to the average person in the street.

You seem to be primarily concerned with the fortunes of those causing all the trouble in the world.

[hlthe2b]

187. Your accusation is highly offensive and uncalled for

re: "You seem to be primarily concerned with the fortunes of those causing all the trouble in the world."

If it makes you feel better to be so offensive to me (and/or other DUers) who are merely asking a question to gather the opinion of others, then so be it. I would think you would have some shame in doing so. You certainly ought to. Your comments are not only wrong, but disingenuously so. :eyes:

[Greyhound]

188. Then post an answer to the issue you raised.

How do any of the items in the article you listed secure Americans from the parasites which prey upon their efforts?

None of these institutions have done anything to benefit the people of this nation in generations, if ever. The State Dept. supports illegal coups that the rest of the world condemns in order to make looting safe for criminal corporations. The CIA destabilizes governments and murders innocent people that dare to object. "National security" is a euphemism for further subjugation and denial of rights for our citizens.

So, instead of simply claiming offense, explain to the rest of us how suppression of a free press is really in our interests.

[hlthe2b]

189. ...

Your rudeness without apology is beyond the pale. It shows your disinterest in discussion, but only a need to bully.

[Greyhound]

190. As expected.

:eyes:

[Rex]

193. No kidding.

:eyes:

[Amonester]

186. The level of paranoia in the most militarized country of the world

and by far... is getting more and more almost un-real...

Remember people, you've got way more chances to win any mega-lotto jackpot twice in a year than to get hurt in a terra attack...

[L0oniX]

194. Some of the US missions abroad that affect US national security is the killing of the innocent.

The other is ...spending all we have on war until we collapse. Don't worry though ...the rich will survive.