I will say it, we HAVE a civil war

[nadinbrzezinski]

in the democratic party. Just as the Republicans have one as well.

This civil war is about the future... and this give away... no other way to call it, has brought it up to the fore in this place.

I don't envy the mods. but things will continue to get heated.

That is all.

[Uben]

1. Who's the leader? nt

nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Read this place

you have two very clear factions... and to be frank, we cannot stand each other.

[WCGreen]

7. Personally I think people on both sides have valid points and also

Kool Aid like behavior.

I agree with a lot of what the anti-establishment people are saying but, since I was a political operative for almost 20 years, I see the reasoning behind those in power.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Well I also get politics

but what happened over the last ten years is not usual. And since you are a political operative you will get why we are in the midst of a constitutional crisis.

That is neither here or there... the fact is that the progressives are really pissed at this point. And many of us, who get politics, will vote in a primary challenge (yes I know the history) and will also vote for this guy. but not volunteer, give money, defend, or anything else in 2012.

People are that pissed, And then there are some that have been turned off forever, and a few who will cast protest votes.

But what happened today was a phyrric victory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

See about that crisis.

Of course the worst of all possible outcomes in 2012 is something that most americans cannot even fathom... kiss the empire good bye. And today's surrender, accelerated that trend.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. this place has often had terrible distention.

the level of ugliness has increased, but that is true of the nation as a whole.

The 'tea-party' made being rude, selfish and snarky fashionable.

It's ugly and counter-productive, we need to get control of ourselves imo.

[xiamiam]

52. in 6 years i have put one person on ignore..i think he is now gone

everyday, these days, i check names and think to put a host of people on ignore..i still have yet to do it as i think i could benefit but, believe me, i'm close..never thought i would even consider doing that here..hopeful that we will reach conclusions together that i can live with..less and less hopeful daily, unfortunately

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Thanks

[SidDithers]

3. LULZ...

:rofl:

Sid

[cali]

4. yawn. Du is not the democratic party and this place is

often contentious.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Ah the usual crowd ON ONE SIDE poopoes this

I most be onto something!

Thanks guys!

[ProSense]

6. I think some people are trying to create a civil war

it's not working, especially since it relies on simply ignoring everything positive that's being done. It would be easier to get people to coalesce and fight for more progress, but impossible when some refuse to admit there is any progress being made.

[lonestarnot]

8. How are we progressing with all those IOUs to China?

[lonestarnot]

9. I think we can write those faster than we can print money. Any ideas on that?

[lonestarnot]

12. Or is it that we can build prisons faster than either one of those?

[PufPuf23]

32. You define progress as "wins" that Obama campaigned against and

that are against the common good and, to be cynical, the national security of the people of the USA.

Compare the cost of the unemployment extention versus loss of tax income.

Compare the net to pharm and the medical-insurance complex versus the accessibility increase in health care.

Do the calculations on a napkin at Denny's using round figures and a pencil

Let us not even get into rule of law, world peace, environment, financial regulation, or education.

Most of Obama's "victories" have been regressive and he appears to cut background deals and not support his campaigning statements nor 95% of Americans and has embarrassed us to the World by his own cynicism.

Shameful. Obama is unraveling the New Deal that brought so much peace and prosperity and allowed social progress under the Democratic brand.

[ProSense]

44. No, I don't

progress is the health care and Wall Street Reform laws, and more:

Fed's massive data release offers new insight into financial crisis

Elizabeth Warren Recruits Dodd-Frank Enforcers From 50 States

That's progress.

[PufPuf23]

49. You can't defend you opinions any better than that?

Let us do arithmatic and real world USA not blue links.

Chicken?

[Individualist]

10. No doubt about it.

[msongs]

11. dems got something repub would've voted for anyway (unemployment extension) lol because it would

have been suicidal for them to vote that down. could've allowed the tax cuts to expire then reintroduced the middle class one as the Obama tax cut lol but they blew that one too

[Pholus]

13. There are two general types of members in the Democratic Party.

There are people who stand for the Democratic Party because it represents the principle of equality of rights, opportunity, and treatment.

There are people who stand for the principle of equality of rights, opportunity, and treatment and as such are members of the Democratic Party.

You can tell the difference between the two in any one of a number of flamewars on DU.

I'd expand on this more, but as a member of the latter group I probably wouldn't do it without a load o' bias.

[Kaleva]

15. A civil war in DU isn't the same as a civil war within the party itself.

[Pholus]

16. Also, civil "wars" on DU have little to do with real life.

And "Thank the Creator" for that. ;)

[originalpckelly]

19. We're a leading indicator, except when we're not.

That's the way the intertubes are. You can never know which issue is going to blow up in "real life".

[Kaleva]

34. Well Done! A funny but very accurate statement!

[apocalypsehow]

23. Spot-on observation. +1. n/t.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Yep, that's why the left flank of the party

you know the democratic wing of the democratic party keeps getting snubbed in real life... by the same faction of the democratic party that keeps pulling the country to the right, never mind the country is center left. But the elites are center right... all the way to FAR RIGHT.

[Kaleva]

33. But even the left flank of the party supports Presdient Obama.

85% of liberal Democrats give the President a positive job performance rating. When you include all Dems, the rating dips slightly to 81%.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Will see

people are taking TODAY very personally.

Them are facts. and getting the youth to vote for change and hope... good luck.

[Kaleva]

46. There was only a 3% difference in the youth vote in the 06 election compared to the 10 election

In purple areas of the country where the races were competitive, youth turnout in 2010 matched 2006 levels. Remember that in 2006, Dems regained control of the House.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

56. Yes, people on DU are taking this very personally. Nothing unusual there.

[mmonk]

17. Or maybe we could put our heads together and try and figure

out how to the turn the tide in society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Well one side is all for workers, and all that crap

the other not really.

So we have two very different visions of society am afraid.

[mmonk]

27. And I guess that is where we have to start and show people`

we are all in this sinking ship together. Then give people a hard dose of the truth that tax cuts and gutting the public square is not in their interest. The politicians are in the rich man's pocket so it's up to us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. I do it all the time

but when a Democratic president does this... what the hell do you tell voters?

Serious.

We know what slimy republicans stand for... but to tell you the truth I no longer know what democrats stand for IN REALITY.

At least not the POTUS.

[mmonk]

45. I guess we have to work to transform society where we can

and have each other's back. I no longer believe in the party. It's run top down by the DLC. It doesn't represent me anymore. Only a few brave politicians speak for me. I'll do my best to prop those up. But we can't sit around and wait for the president or "New Democrats" to see it our way anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Alas you have concluded what many of us have

already. What we need is MOVEMENT politics... and influencing the party is part of it, but... it means working your ass off locally, and changing from bellow. It means many a times working from the outside in. People need to study the conservative movement in the present, or the progressive movement in the past.

No, not for ideology, but for how they function.

While republicans in the modern period have a MOVEMENT outside the GOP that at times works with the GOP, we have belief in political leaders. We used to have movement politics, but I think between 1968 and 1972 it died. While the GOP started theirs in 1964.

It will take over a generation for it to have any effect. Of course we are also in the middle of a collapsing empire so that complicates things.

[one_voice]

21. + 10000000000000000000000 !!!!!! not enough zeros...

:thumbsup:

[Cerridwen]

37. Our "heads" are not the issue. Our conflicting *values* are the issue. n/t

[Individualist]

38. Absolutely!

[mmonk]

53. Conflicting values come from the head.

[bigtree]

20. just on DU

Show me where this 'war' is being waged outside of the internet.

[CakeGrrl]

22. You have a flame-up on one message board. That is all.

This is not the nexus of the Democratic Party.

[originalpckelly]

24. It only takes a spark to start a wildfire.

And wildfires are good, sometimes.

[one_voice]

41. Dunno...

maybe wildfires are good sometimes. All I've ever seen as a result of wildfires was destruction and despair. Heartache and loss. But that's just me..

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Then you have never seen the effect AFTER one

it is amazing to watch plants start to grow over burn areas after the burn. And in California, the Manzanita tree... well it NEEDS that heat for it's seeds to sprout. This is to the point that the fire is part of it's life cycle. No fire, no new manzanita trees.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. I am betting other LIBERAL places are having similar

flame outs... but I am sure you will continue to hide head on sand.

And no, we don;t have the same priorities for the country.

[liberaltrucker]

28. There's a civil war, definitely.

Not just at DU, but in the Nation at large.

The CW at DU consists merely of flame wars.

The other one, unfortunately, may escalate to
bullets flying. I hope for the best, but prepare
for the worst.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Yep, that is the other one

been going on since oh 1996 and just heating up.

I take it you drive all over the place.

The one in the democratic party I think is just two years old and still could be stopped.

[BzaDem]

30. To have a civil war, you need both sides to be a non-negligable percentage of the party.

When one side is 5-6 times the other, it isn't much of a war. More like the state of affairs in both parties for decades, and nothing new.

[jimlup]

36. I don't disagree but...

This has come up before. The problem that we face is that the powers that be are indeed VERY powerful. They will squash any "independence movement of the people". I mean, I wish this wasn't so. And sometimes I give in to fantasy and think that change is possible but alas, then I awaken to the same old reality. I think we're stuck until something catastrophic happens. Only then will the "people" have the gumption and drive to take what is rightfully there's. This may happen within the party - I hope so because that would be less painful for us than the more likely course.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. This wil happen within the country

and the insanity of these tax cuts will come back to hunt us very soon...

The collapse of empire is coming.

That said, yes it is within the people, but first we need leaders. No I don't mean the political kind, I mean botom up leaders.

That said if you really want to be depressed once reason we don't have them these days, and we should by any other logic, is that over the last 30 years the US has become a very strict caste society with very old ideology coming up from the dredges of history where it should still be, very well buried.

But I think sooner or later people will have it. All peoples have a limit and ours increasingly has little to nothing to lose.

[laughingliberal]

39. I wish. I think the war's been won by the DLC or NDC or whatever they're calling themselves now

The days of Democrats who could stand up for workers or the poor, elderly, or sick are history.

I swear, Mr. LL was flipping through channels a while ago and some right winger on Fox was giving a guy hell about being a union member. If I had not been watching and seen it was Fox, I would not have been able to say, for certain, it wasn't a Democrat. Same anti-union propaganda I read on Democratic sites frequently these days.

[Pholus]

40. +1!

[Catherina]

42. Rec'd n/t

[berni_mccoy]

48. No, just the left side of the blogosphere has become an angry echochamber

It's not even close to reality and it moves further from it with each passing day.

Most of the voice of reason has left DU.

[Codeine]

54. +eleventy billion nt

[blue neen]

57. They probably left to prepare for the "collapse of the empire".

:dem:

[MineralMan]

58. +1

DU is not representative of anything but DU. I could say the same for a number of other websites.

[TBF]

59. The war is over - the DLC won. Working folks lost.

Now we need to figure out what to do about it.