Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators

[SoCalDem]

By SAM DILLON
Published: December 7, 2010
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html?_r=1&hp

With China’s debut in international standardized testing, students in Shanghai have surprised experts by outscoring their counterparts in dozens of other countries, in reading as well as in math and science, according to the results of a respected exam. Pupils studying English at a school in Shanghai, a city that has become a magnet for many of the best students in China. American officials and Europeans involved in administering the test in about 65 countries acknowledged that the scores from Shanghai — an industrial powerhouse with some 20 million residents and scores of modern universities that is a magnet for the best students in the country — are by no means representative of all of China.

About 5,100 15-year-olds in Shanghai were chosen as a representative cross-section of students in that city. In the United States, a similar number of students from across the country were selected as a representative sample for the test . Experts noted the obvious difficulty of using a standardized test to compare countries and cities of vastly different sizes. Even so, they said the stellar academic performance of students in Shanghai was noteworthy, and another sign of China’s rapid modernization.

The results also appeared to reflect the culture of education there, including greater emphasis on teacher training and more time spent on studying rather than extracurricular activities like sports. “Wow, I’m kind of stunned, I’m thinking Sputnik,” said Chester E. Finn Jr., who served in President Ronald Reagan’s Department of Education, referring to the groundbreaking Soviet satellite launching. Mr. Finn, who has visited schools all across China, said, “I’ve seen how relentless the Chinese are at accomplishing goals, and if they can do this in Shanghai in 2009, they can do it in 10 cities in 2019, and in 50 cities by 2029.”

The test, the Program for International Student Assessment, known as PISA, was given to 15-year-old students by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a Paris-based group that includes the world’s major industrial powers. The results are to be released officially on Tuesday, but advance copies were provided to the news media a day early. “We have to see this as a wake-up call,” Secretary of Education Arne Duncan said in an interview on Monday.

snip

[AngryAmish]

1. I have a tot I have to start educating in next September

I don't want her to be working around the clock for her entire youth. Yet I want her to do well in school. Quite a pickle, no? I can't send her to public school here in Chicago (they are complete shit) unless she gets into a special school somehow. So I get start spending on private school. Unless we move to the suburbs. Yay.

[SoCalDem]

2. Perhaps you just enrich her schooling & maybe hire tutors

That would probably be cheaper than moving, and at least Chicago has so many wonderful museums & places of interest.

I am SO incredibly glad I have grown up children..

[AngryAmish]

3. No. The regular schools are complete shit.

You think I am joking. Metal detectors. Hardly anyone goes to college. Gangs.

The point is to keep the tot away from that sort of thing.

[okieinpain]

10. all depends on the parent. doesn't matter how bad the school,

it's the parent that matters.

[TBF]

56. We moved to the suburbs -

it isn't so bad for my husband (except for the commute), he is still downtown every day. I am managing. It isn't where I'd choose to live but we were able to find excellent public schools and many activities for the children. I am in Houston which is pretty similar to Chicago regarding downtown gang activity (just different gangs).

[tridim]

4. Just a guess, but I bet whips are involved.

This is China we're talking about here, not exactly a human rights Utopia.

[theophilus]

6. Maybe some, but less than you'd think, I'll bet. Many Americans are teaching

in China, including a friend of mine. They are racing to the top of the World. America is making a sad and unfortunate choice, imo.

[PassingFair]

13. I have a Chinese exchange student living with me right now. No whips.

Just round-the-clock study.

She and her classmates have been going
to boarding school since AGE SIX.

They wake up at 7:00, are at school
by 7:45, study til 5:30.

Then they cook their dinner, eat,
clean up, and study until 9:00.

Then they shower and get ready for bed.

6 days a week.

They have Saturday off.

Sunday is a school day.

She is, believe it or not, a happy and
well adjusted child who loves her classmates.

[Goblinmonger]

28. That's just wrong.

If you are going to tell me that a child is happy at age 6 when they spend about 12 hours a day studying for 6 days a week, then we seriously need to redefine happy.

[PassingFair]

29. Didn't know her at six.

She is now 14.

Going to high school with my daughter.

[Hannah Bell]

31. she is also from the top 10% of the population if she's studying in the us.

[Heywood J]

44. I look at it this way.

We didn't need to put every young child through 72-hour weeks at school/studying to develop electronic computers, put men on the Moon, create the Internet, develop practical airplanes for civilian travel, invent television, etc. We got all those things and we still let our children play outside after school, and on both Saturday and Sunday. We even had summer vacation and holidays throughout the year.

Forcing children to study for ten to twelve hours a day, six days a week does not guarantee success, nor is it something we should emulate just because the Chinese do it. After all, Chinese factory workers also keep that sort of schedule - is anyone really saying we should emulate them in that respect? There will be more than enough of a chance for today's children to experience regimented day-consuming workweeks when they become adults. Let children enjoy childhood while it lasts.

[HEyHEY]

48. So she says, in my experience most of them hate their lives.

[NotThisTime]

53. My daughter does this on her own, some kids thrive on it.. she's home but at an Independent school

[TBF]

58. Of course she loves her classmates - they are the only people

she sees with that schedule.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. I have a Chinese student penpal...she must have forgot to tell me about the whips,.

But, she does tell me about the long hours of study and dedicated teachers.

[Matariki]

47. Or perhaps they value education and I'll bet teachers there don't have to buy their own supplies.

It seems that China understands the correlation between education and a nation's future.

You're right about the human rights issues of course, but we have those too.

[demwing]

54. Yes, compared to the US

oh , wait...

[malaise]

55. I'm betting that there are no creationist teachers

:evilgrin:

[Ginto]

5. A lot of Asian countries have far better education systems than we do.

We could learn something if we were willing to listen.

[mainer]

7. It's all about the culture

Asian countries have always revered education. Plus, there's not the culture of football adoration.

[Reader Rabbit]

12. Exactly. Student work ethic there is incredible.

Parental and societal support of education is a given—like breathing.

[Hannah Bell]

30. 5200 US students took this test, from 165 schools, 32% non-response rate.

[progressoid]

8. pffft. But what score can they get on Grand Theft Auto?

[Donnachaidh]

9. Our sports mentality has really screwed up education

My kid's high school sent notes to parents, begging for paper for their printers, etc. They claimed to be scraping from lack of funding.

But they had a FUNDRAISER to buy uniforms for the football players.

And then they had the gall to get pissed about their test scores going down.

[mainer]

15. +1

Instead of spending hours and hours practicing for football and basketball, imagine what other enriching things they could be doing.

[Sirveri]

17. They passed bonds to improve the local HS near me. First thing they did, the football field.

Complete with a brand new lighting system and big game score board... Then they came back to beg for more money.

We need to get rid of sports, it's nothing more than bread and circuses for the masses.

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. But the kids could get Soccer, football, basketball '" Scholarships""

and then go to make 'Millions'

SPORTS IS NOT SCHOLARSHIP

The Word Scholar means
scholar |ˈskälər|
noun
a specialist in a particular branch of study, esp. the humanities; a distinguished academic : a Hebrew scholar.
• chiefly archaic a person who is highly educated or has an aptitude for study : Mr. Bell declares himself no scholar.


I see no mention of sports.

[Ginto]

37. Yeah, its all because of sports. sigh. nt

[tinrobot]

11. Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macao only? Unfair comparison.

Those are the richest and most highly educated cities in China.

Might as well take the US test scores from Palo Alto CA, Cambridge MA, and the upper east side of Manhattan.

[mainer]

16. We're also outperformed by Korea, Japan, and Singapore

not to mention Finland.

[BrklynLiberal]

14. The fact that this result was such a surprise is a good indication of how unaware

most folks are of what is gong on in the rest of the world.

I noticed that the US was pretty pathetic, in every area.
Exactly what the repukes want..and ignorant, uneducated public is their best audience.
I am sure they will cut more government $ for public education at their first opportunity.
Schools are merely a profit center for them.

[PBS Poll-435]

18. Somewhat surprised by Japan's performance

For decades we have heard of the spectacular commitment with low class sizes and time spent teaching... Would have expected a higher ranking in all three.

[knitter4democracy]

20. So, countries that track lower-performing students out do better.

How, um, insightful. :eyes: Make it a test of our top students against their top students, and then I'll read the results.

Also, the Chinese language makes memorizing the multiplication tables easier. There are some educators who think that language really is at the root of the US's issues with math. I'm not saying I agree with the theory, just that it's out there and something to consider. If a language makes learning some things easier, there might be an impact on test scores down the road.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. And yet Singapore teaches math in English, and came 2nd in the table

And Canada, Australia and New Zealand all did significantly better than the US in math.

It's not just "countries that track lower-performing students out" that do better. A lot of countries do better than the US.

[knitter4democracy]

42. Singapore tracks students.

I'm not saying our system isn't broken (I teach in an alternative high school, so I deal with the broken system every day), but I am saying we're comparing apples to oranges.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. In what way?

I understand the objection to Shanghai not being representative of all of China, because some children drop out of school before then, Shanghai is a magnet for high-performing children and families, and so on. And so that's what I took as your meaning for 'countries that track lower-performing students out'.

What are your specific objections to the way Singapore administered the test?

[knitter4democracy]

45. Most countries in that test track students very early on.

Singapore does as well, from what I remember reading in my education classes (which might be seriously out of date by now).

Shanghai is a self-selecting population--that's not the only way they track. If China follows the model Communist Russia set up (in part to find their Olympic hopefuls), they're testing preschoolers and tracking from there. Seriously. We don't do that other than in economic/cultural ways (which are illegal but still done).

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. And so what if some countries 'track'?

Is there evidence that they exclude certain tracks from taking the test? I accept that the Shanghai score is not done on the same basis as others. But I've seen nothing to show that the US testing is any more comprehensive than the other countries that did better.

[toddwv]

21. I'm not saying that the US education system needs a change.

There really hasn't been a significant change for at least a hundred years. Most school districts are still running on a semester system that was established for a predominantly agrarian society. Plus there are the constant battles to make public schools into Bible classes and the fact that when budgets get low, the first thing to get the axe is education.

However, everyone should take a look at the Chinese education system. It is fairly brutal.

Found this:

******************************************************************************
http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/pchun88/china_2005/1124971860/tpod.html
China's Educational System

Being a student in China is very stressful. The weight and burden that an only child faces can be unbearable. In China, education is free up until the tenth grade, which is consider the first year of high school. In order to attend high school one must pay an administration fee. This fee can vary depending on a child's academic performance in middle school. If a student receives high marks in middle school, he or she will be charged a lower entrance fee. Thus, students are pressured to do well so that they can save money for their parents.

In addition, after middle school, which is 7th-9th grade, students must take a nationwide entrance exam in order to attend high school. Their scores on this exam will largely decide what high school they can attend. A low score means that the most prestigious high school will not accept you unless you pay a very high tuition fee. And a high score most likely will allow you to attend the high school of your choice. As well, your tuition fee will be substantially reduced.

In summary, high schools in China are operated more like the university system in the United States. Students take an entrance exam and compete to attend the most prestigious high schools. Students who do not do well end up attending poorly run schools unless their parents can afford to pay the high tuition of a more prestigious high school. Students with high marks will receive a lower tuition fee, which is similar to receiving a scholarship at the university level.

A Day in a Life of a Chinese Student

High school students go to school six days a week! In place of three electives, high school students are required to take physics, biology, and chemistry simultaneously for three straight years. Here is a schedule for a typical high school student:

Time
6:50am-11:40am
1) Chinese
2) Math
3) English
4) Elective
11:40am-1:00pm
Lunch Break
1:00pm-4:30pm
5) Physics
6) Chemistry
7) Biology
8) Elective
5:00-6:00pm
9) Chinese, Math or English

**Note: there are many students that take additional courses after their regular school schedule. I have met students that don't go home until 10:00 in the evening! As well, the more competitive schools keep their students in class until 8:00pm.
****************************************************************************************************************

[kgnu_fan]

22. It is not "All about culture", it is about teacher training, budget the community pours into schools

They take care of their children more attentively... Here in the US, schools are crumbling....teachers have been abandoned by community(school board etc....) Everything starts with how we take care of our own people.... strong community matters

[mainer]

23. but culture defines the community

If your community (made up of parents) cares more about football than math, then they're going to direct their tax dollars to stadiums, not books.

[Hannah Bell]

26. you said it's "not all about culture" & then "strong community matters" = lol.

How many US students took PISA? 5200.

From how many schools? 165

What percent of schools from the original statistical design participated? 68%

What do the results of this assessment show? 32% non-response = Jack-shit.

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/faq.asp

[Ichingcarpenter]

25. USA.... The Michael Vick Schools of College.

You do realize HIgh Schools spend 10 to 100 times more on sports
than any of their science or Math circuliculm

[Ichingcarpenter]

27. High Schools here have computer robots and very high tech

devices for their High School students that cost millions?

[madfloridian]

32. Cherry-picking? From bottom of front page.

"For one thing, Shanghai is a huge migration hub within China. Students are supposed to return to their home provinces to attend high school, but the Shanghai authorities could increase scores by allowing stellar students to stay in the city, he said. And Shanghai students apparently were told the test was important for China’s image and thus were more motivated to do well, he said."

[Hannah Bell]

35. Definitely cherry-picking, from jump street. 12% of chinese students don't complete

junior middle school (ends at age 15, the age at which this test is given).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9710596&mesg_id=9714764

[Godhumor]

33. I can't keep track anymore. Are we advocating for or against teaching to the test, right now?

Let me know if I should be outraged at the results and demand we be more like the Shanghai schools, or if I should be outraged at people advocating we be more like the Shanghai schools. Thanks.

[Hannah Bell]

34. Let's see: Chinese education is compulsory & free to 9th grade equivalent, age 15,

the age at which this test is given.

95% of Chinese students finish primary school & enroll in "junior middle school".

92% of those enrolled graduate, which means 88% of all Chinese students finish "junior middle school" which ends at age 15.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lrKec5YTVYAC&pg=PA867&lpg=PA867&dq=china+percent+junior+middle+school+graduation&source=bl&ots=z-uv6SuJ12&sig=VtUSD2rd7vF9JNM5_6rAJ8SIN3s&hl=en&ei=3Zz-TKGVJIyisAOS-4CxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Which means 12% of Chinese students don't complete "junior middle school," & don't take the PISA test.

Which is not a universal test, but a "sampled" test.

Which gives opportunity to over-sample urban v. rural students, the biggest divide in China. The majority of students = rural. The richest students = urban.

How much difference can this make? As much difference as it does in the US, where students from Mass come out at the top of the (similar) TIMMS test, & students from Alabama come out at the bottom.


IF YOU DON'T LOOK FURTHER THAN THE HEADLINES, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HEADLINES REALLY MEAN.

[mainer]

36. does cherry-picking explain Japan, Korea, Finland,

Singapore, New Zealand, Canada, etc., all of which do better than the U.S.?

Is EVERYONE above us on the list cherry-picking, while only the good old U.S.A. playing by the rules?

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Wouldn't surprise me

The US is one of the few countries that tests all of their kids and not just a select few.

[hayu_lol]

39. Big difference in languages makes the difference...

Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai and others who use characters instead of letters(as we do)train their brains to memorize what they see. This starts in the very early years of school. Makes a difference to the kids later on when they can absorb large amounts of info quite easily. Applies to the sciences, music, math and so on.

Many Asian countries have sports but they are not regular classwork. They join clubs to do hobby/sports/other extracurricular subjects that are not part of the regular school requirements. The emphasis is on learning.

Our students only have 26 letters to memorize...some have difficulty with those.

Wait until Arnie Duncan gets through with our educational system.

[Hannah Bell]

59. not *this* test. only a sample of about 5000 kids took it, from about 125 schools.

the results, for various reasons (e.g. china's compulsory system ends at age 15 & 10% of their students drop out even before that; in a lot of the countries age 15 is one of the cut-offs for tracking so students are studying madly to pass their national exams, etc), aren't directly comparable.

but people like to make comparisons to further their agendas.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

62. Italy was playing by the rules too

I was reading the report on an Italian newspaper's site and, while Italy's performance has gone down, it reported that a braoder geographic representation of students was tested this time around, including several lower-performing schools in southern Italy, instead of traditionally just testing higher-performing schools in northern Italy, which previously had given Italy very high grades by cherry-picking.

[Swamp Rat]

41. Ok, but are they talented and creative thinkers?

Or, are they little robots programed to score a few points higher on a meaningless standardized test?

Personally, I would prefer to work with creative, interesting people who scored poorly, say, from Italy, Portugal, or Greece.

[HEyHEY]

49. The former

It's actually rather sick.

[JCMach1]

46. It's also about who you test!

[StarsInHerHair]

50. wow, homeschooling has had a bad impact here I think, as well as NCLB

...."Add to this clear evidence that the U.S. education system, that source of future scientists and innovators, has been falling behind its competitors. After leading the world for decades in 25- to 34-year-olds with university degrees, the country sank to 12th place in 2010. The World Economic Forum ranked the United States at a mediocre 52nd among 139 nations in the quality of its university math and science instruction in 2010. Nearly half of all graduate students in the sciences in the U.S. are now foreigners, most of whom will be heading home, not staying here as once would have happened. By 2025, in other words, the United States is likely to face a critical shortage of talented scientists."......

http://www.truth-out.org/the-decline-and-fall-american-empire65700 <--- from there, it all seems to be making a vicious feedback loop of self-undoing for the U.S. We need to logjam the process.

[demwing]

57. How did you come to the Home Schooling conclusion?

From the Wiki page on Homeschooling:

Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.<84> Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.<85>

84 - http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp
85 - http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/default.asp

[Hannah Bell]

60. there is not and will not be any scientist shortage, no more than there was

the first time this pronouncement was made in the 50s...or subsequent pronouncements in the 70s, 80s, 90s & oughts.

[RazzTjazz]

51. Incentives to change the culture! It's time for change.

A lot has been put in to American schools to look at academic curriculum and teacher skill and will continue. It's time to look a the 3rd element discussed which is a "culture" that values and encourages strong academic skills. Even if families encourage it, "the smart kid" is not rewarded or encouraged by peers, games, TV, etc. If students could get a "treat" or a small % discount at a store for higher skills test scores. (given a card by showing their card) Or for grades on a report card like Chucky Cheese. It would need to be something not subjective and would need to be renewed. The good thing is, if it was a small % off groceries, it would get the families, friends and relatives involved and students would be encouraging by being able to go shopping with the kid who earned it.A lot has been put in to American schools to look at academic curriculum and teacher skill and will continue. It's time to look a the 3rd element discussed which is a "culture" that values and encourages strong academic skills. Even if families encourage it, "the smart kid" is not rewarded or encouraged by peers, games, TV, etc. If students could get a "treat" or a small % discount at a store for higher skills test scores. (given a card by showing their card) Or for grades on a report card like Chucky Cheese. It would need to be something not subjective and would need to be renewed. The good thing is, if it was a small % off groceries, it would get the families, friends and relatives involved and students would be encouraging by being able to go shopping with the kid who earned it.A lot has been put in to American schools to look at academic curriculum and teacher skill and will continue. It's time to look a the 3rd element discussed which is a "culture" that values and encourages strong academic skills. Even if families encourage it, "the smart kid" is not rewarded or encouraged by peers, games, TV, etc. If students could get a "treat" or a small % discount at a store for higher skills test scores. (given a card by showing their card) Or for grades on a report card like Chucky Cheese. It would need to be something not subjective and would need to be renewed. The good thing is, if it was a small % off groceries, it would get the families, friends and relatives involved and students would be encouraging by being able to go shopping with the kid who earned it.

[seabeyond]

61. the numbers are skewed. we know this. noo ne ever discusses it. just hair on fire. it is bs. nt

[lunatica]

63. I work in UC Berkeley and yesterday one of our Chinese students

said good bye to me and thanked me for all my help because he's going back to China because he got a job at a university there. I guess it still helps a great deal to be a Graduate student from UC Berkeley. Even in China.

I see this a lot. Chinese students are getting their Graduate education in the US's most prestigious universities and going back home. I certainly don't blame them for anything or hold it against them. They're outstanding students even with English being difficult for them. Our Chinese students are the most diligent, hard working and polite students anyone can have and we would certainly like them to stay. The Chair of our department is a Chinese woman.

[Supersedeas]

64. valuing education is an ethos