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Do you believe in the presumption of innocence?

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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 04:56 PM
Original message
Poll question: Do you believe in the presumption of innocence?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_until_proven_guilty

The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred by the Latin Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty) is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, recognised in many nations. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies).

(snip)


Common law

In British common law, the term means, loosely, "the onus of proving a fact rests upon the man".<2><3> Another rough translation is, "The proof lies upon the one who affirms, not the one who denies." <4><5>

The fully stated maxim is, allegedly: "Ei incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat; cum per rerum naturam factum negantis probatio nulla sit. - The proof lies upon him who affirms, not upon him who denies; since, by the nature of things, he who denies a fact cannot produce any proof."<6>

(snip)

Meaning

First, the presumption is not a true presumption at all. A "presumption" is typically a rebuttable or irrebuttable inference dependent upon evidence of an initial fact (e.g., presumption of non-negligent behavior if a person took reasonable care). Instead, "presumption of innocence" serves to emphasize that the prosecution has the obligation to prove each element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt (in some criminal justice systems) and that the accused bears no burden of proof.<14> This is often expressed in the phrase innocent until proven guilty coined by the English lawyer Sir William Garrow (1760–1840).<15> Garrow insisted that accusers be robustly tested in court. An objective observer in the position of the juror must reasonably conclude that the defendant almost certainly committed the crime.<16> The observable facts clearly support such an inference - the defendant has been charged with a crime, is present in court and is represented by an attorney, and all the participants in a criminal trial are also present and ready to proceed.<17>

The presumption of innocence is in fact a legal instrument created by the French cardinal and jurist Johannes Monachus to favor the accused based on the legal inference that most people are not criminals.<18> It is literally considered favorable evidence for the accused that automatically attaches at trial.<19> It requires that the trier of fact, be it a juror or judge, begin with the presumption that the state is unable to support its assertion.<18> To ensure this legal protection is maintained a set of three related rules govern the procedure of criminal trials. The presumption means:<14>

(snip)

More subtly, publishing of the prosecution's case without proper defence argumentation may in practice constitute presumption of guilt. Publishing a roster of arrested suspects may constitute undeserved punishment as well, since in practice it damages the reputation of innocent suspects. Private groups fighting certain abuses may also apply similar tactics, such as publishing the real name, address, and phone number of suspects, or even contacting the suspects' employer, friends and neighbors.

Modern practices aimed at curing social ills may run against presumption of innocence. Some civil rights activists feel that pre-employment drug testing, while legal, violates this principle, as potential employees are presumed to be users of illegal drugs, and must prove themselves innocent through the test. Similarly, critics argue that some dispositions of laws against sexual harassment or racial discrimination show a presumption of guilt. These dispositions were meant to ease the burden of proof on the victim, since in practice harassment or discrimination practices are hard to prove.

Civil rights activists note that the well-meaning practices so adopted may have a deleterious effect on justice being served. An example is the use in some sexual assault cases of a screen, which is set up to prevent the complainant from being distressed at the sight of the accused. Where a victim was in fact victimized by the accused, this may be argued to serve the principles of therapeutic justice.<21> However, where an accused is innocent, this may inadvertently tell the jury that the court accepts that a crime was committed. This shifts the burden of proof traditionally on the prosecution to the defense, and risks putting the court in the role of judging guilt rather than the jury. Even more importantly, such a shield may also send a message that the complainant is upset by the sight of the accused, once again because guilt is seen to have been assumed by the court in so shielding the complainant. The psychological effects of such a screen have not yet been well researched, but the tension between the two views is a problem for therapeutic justice, which must weigh protection of genuine victims from genuine offenders against the potential for an unjust conviction that such protection may create.<22>




I ask this because we have articles and columns about accusers' "names being dragged through the mud" with little or no regard about the accused's reputation.








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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. No I think we shouda hit them bad people
Edited on Wed Dec-08-10 04:58 PM by Taverner
You know like non christians and islamogays?

Them that don't kiss mah flag gonna get hit
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes. K&R! nt
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. The presumption of innocence is essential to justice.
Edited on Wed Dec-08-10 05:09 PM by TexasObserver
Even with it, the deck is stacked so much in favor of the prosecution it is ridiculous.

The sad truth is most defendants don't enjoy a presumption of innocence. They suffer from a presumption of guilt, which they must overcome with their own evidence.

There's a reason so many innocent prisoners have been identified by innocence projects. Our justice system does not deliver on the promise of presumed innocent.
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:12 PM
Original message
I've wondered before
How does the number of wrongly-convicted people stack up against the number of people who are guilty but walk for whatever reason? I wouldn't be surprised if the latter number is much higher. I would presume there have been plenty of studies on this published in law journals.

Is a wrongful conviction worse for society than a guilty person going free? I don't know -- it's certainly an interesting question for debate.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. If they weren't convicted, then you can't say they're guilty.
Your proposal assumes that you can know whether a person really did or not if they're acquitted.

I can answer your question, however. Of course it's better for a guilty person to go free than an innocent to be wrongly convicted.
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. That logic can be turned around pretty easily though
One could also say that if they are convicted, you can't say they are innocent. Or course that's not true, so I'm not about to accept the same logic in your argument. I wasn't there when Nicole and Ron were killed, but I'm pretty sure that I know who was responsible, despite what a jury decided.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Your arguments are not germane.
Justice requires that the guilty go free rather than the innocent be convicted. Our system is supposed to reflect that, although it already presumes guilt, as I informed you earlier.
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I would bet our system does reflect that
Regardless of what you have informed me of. Like I said, I imagine there are studies on this and I would bet far more guilty people go free than innocent people don't. But I don't really know and neither do you. According to you, there's no way to know that anyway.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Next, we should ask if people should be jailed on charges not yet brought.
This has been wild and will be wilder before it's over.

Thanks, Uncle Joe.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. The TSA doesn't. nt
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. I know enough about it to know it applies to the accused not the accuser.
In fact, the right to challenge the accuser's motive to lie is black letter law.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. Maybe we can't imagine how bad a thing is unless/until we experience it first-hand...
most American have forgotten why this is the very bedrock of our criminal justice system. It's really too bad, but there it is.


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Creative Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. If you answered no, you do not believe in our system of justice.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. On the level of justice, absolutely.
On the level of justice, absolutely.

On a wholly personal level, I would imagine most people don't; and simply trust their own judgments and intuitions more than a critical analysis predicated on innocence.

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Not in general, no - only in court and a few other places.
Edited on Wed Dec-08-10 05:55 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
I believe that the legal system should treat people as innocent unless they are convicted of a crime.

I do not think that that the rest of us necessarily should, though - if I have good reason to believe that someone is guilty of a crime, I should not pretend that I don't.

There are probably a few edge cases involving things like employment law where it should apply, too.

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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. you never read DU?
DU is nothing BUT lack of the concept of innocent until proven guilty and always has been.

Mostly I don't have a problem with that because that concept has always been reserved for a court of law.


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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes but it seems to me that if a society can't practice that ethos
at least to some degree in the public sphere, then transferring the concept of innocent until proven guilty over to a "jury of peers" or even a non-prejudiced judge becomes inherently more difficult.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. so you want people to stop thinking and forming opinions?
I sure as shit don't. And I sure as shit don't as even a mere gut instinct means the difference in being hurt or not.

Think about what it is you are asking. Humans have already lost too much of their thinking and forming educated opinions and ignoring their gut instincts then they ever should have.





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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Just the opposite, thinking is the requirement.
Edited on Wed Dec-08-10 07:41 PM by Uncle Joe
Anyone deciding that voting for a President based on "Who they would rather have a beer with?" was using a gut instinct.

I'm not suggesting to eliminate decisions based on your instincts, but always be aware, they're just instincts.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. no, innocent until proven guilty
Means not forming educated opinions or listening to gut instinct and demands belief in innocence until PROOF. That doesn't work in the real world. The real world is full of dangers and pot holes that the only way to avoid them is to be savy and form opinions and going with instinct without waiting for proof because waiting for proof in the real world means it's already too late and YOU are the proof.

There's a damn good reason people have instincts and were given them by nature... to help them survive. People often act on a gut instinct and found to later have been proved correct and avoided a serious danger.

If your gut instinct tells you this guy is creepy don't date him and later find out he's a rapist then you were SMART to not wait for proof because that proof would likely have included you being raped.

If your gut instinct tells you this potential landlord seems suspicious and you find out later that people that rented with him had their rent stolen and he never fixed anything and had to move at a moment's notice than good for you because if you ignored that gut instinct and rented from him because you didn't have proof he was a sleazy thief it would be you that ended up being the proof by having your rent stolen, nothing fixed in your apartment and having to find another place to live at a moment's notice.

People who blithely go through life giving everyone the benefit of doubt until they have proof are those most likely to be hurt and become that proof themselves. Sorry, but innocent until proven guilty should remain in a court of law for exactly this reason. The world is an ugly place that requires forming educated opinions and going on gut instinct to avoid all the pitfalls. It's how people are able to SURVIVE.


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Shandris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. In most cases where the names were 'drug through the mud'...
...it was being done well outside the intended sphere of Innocent Until Proven Guilty. It would be much better to turn the light of truth on those who would perform such an action than it would be to presume that this long-standing theory is no longer relevant because of the actions of the few.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That was my intention with this thread, but I believe there are two kinds of light.
The harsh, bright, blinding light exposing all the warts and that self-realization light which illuminates perhaps from a recalled, too long, ignored, repressed or forgotten memory.

The former may induce the target to look away in denial, whereas the latter may entice the subject to look within via self-enlightenment.

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
19. For TRIALS, yes. For forming an opinion as a non-juror, NO. Are we supposed to stop thinking?
Edited on Wed Dec-08-10 07:13 PM by WinkyDink
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. No, not forming an opinion is next to impossible, but I would suggest to think with qualifiers.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. I'm 61; I know how to think.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Exactly what I was going to post.
Also - because the law is stacked to have to prove guilt and presume innocence, unlike others here I don't view failure to convict as proof of innocence.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. E.g., O.J. Simpson.
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