Bill Maher: The Guns of Homeroom

[billbuckhead]

"Everyone complains about school shootings, but only the South Carolina state house is doing anything about it. Their plan (approved by a subcommittee last Wednesday)? Allow concealed weapons on public school campuses, starting in elementary school.

Okay, I know that sounds a little... what's the word I'm looking for?... INSANE, but Republican state Sep. Jeff Duncan explains:

"We're not talking about kids. We're talking about responsible adults."

Phew. Well, then go ahead. If it's just teachers, parents, janitors and lunch ladies, lock and load. You stupid fuck. I hope you die.

Ernest Ellis, the law enforcement director at the University of South Carolina is against the bill:

"Today, if we respond, we know the person with the weapon is the bad guy."

But what does he know?"
------------------------------snip------------------------------
<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/the-guns-of-homeroom_b_49355.html>

If everyone is forced to be armed by the crazed disfunctional arms raced promoted by the gun lobby and it's minions, then how can society tell who is the bad guy? I'm glad even libertarians are finally seeing reality about America's failed gun regulatory environment.

[Spinzonner]

1. Just kill them all and let God sort them out

:sarcasm:

[Wcross]

2. People in a "gun free zone" = Fish in a barrel.

Being able to defend yourself is somehow a bad idea Bill? Is it somehow more noble to die on your knees? Are you afraid of those that would attempt to fight back? What's the deal?
You trust these people with your child 6-8 hours a day and you can't trust them to handle a handgun? They wouldn't be forced to carry, they would have to get a permit according to their states rules.

Again, NOBODY WOULD BE FORCED TO DO ANYTHING. Restricting the ability to carry in schools guarantees the homicidal maniac will be the only one shooting. Sure, it's easier for the cops when they finally show up. It is a hell of a lot harder for those being shot with no means to defend themselves. (before you start the "arming the children" rhetoric they do not qualify for carry permits under current law)

Have fun driving away moderate democrats with your gun ban plan. Do we lose West Virginia and Tennessee again next time thanks to you and your ilk?

[billbuckhead]

3. Die on your knees or get on your knees to the gun lobby and it's minions

Why not do what free democratic advanced nations like those in the EU, Canada, Australia, New Zealand have done to great success and have stricter gun laws and enforce them? The Brits had a twenty year low in gun homicide last year, only 46 nationwide!



Let's just follow these neoCON gun nuts straight into hell at home and abroad!

[krispos42]

4. And near-record total homicides

but I guess that doesn't matter.

How about we do Mexican gun control? They ban anything over .17 caliber.

[billbuckhead]

9. Any links or just lies as usual? Here check out nationmaster for real comparison

The Mexicans come over the border and buy guns in gun friendly red states, the Mexican and Candian governments complain about it all the time.

With 3 time the murder rate of the UK, the USA is the one doing the right thing............in opposite world where the gun lobby and minions live. The only exceue they ever can come up with is that people of the same culture, language and genetics magically become evil in the USA. These gun worshippers will say anything to keep up their addiction to guns.
<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>

[krispos42]

20. Of course I have links for you

Even a nifty graph.

This is the UK's Home Office 2004/2005 Crime Report

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb0206.pdf

Open it and look at pages 48 and 54. For comparison, here is a chart of the US homicide rate. Note the massive bump as PTSD-afflicted Vietnam veterans returned home to an uncaring nation, as civil unrest surged, as crack and cocaine markets flourished, as Reagan systematically closed down mental hopitals and turned health care into a for-profit enterprise.



Note that the British graph on page 48 is for total number offenses; it's not per capita. Per capita numbers are on page 54. It is important to note that the UK uses offences per million people, and the US graph is in offences per hundred thousand. So you have to either multiply the US numbers by 10 or divide the UK numbers by 10 to get a valid comparison.

Note that in 1989 the UK implemented it's ban on the sale and posession of assault weapons, and in 1998 it's ban on the sale and posession of handguns. So both the numbers of guns in the UK, and the 'death-spraying' assault weapons with huge magazines, pistol grips, and bayonet lugs also decreased.

Some DUers will note that the bans on assault weapons and handguns in the UK was not intended to fight crime or homicide, but to prevent a specific form of homicide, the mass shooting like at Dublane or Hungerford. Some DUers also advocate extremely strict gun-storage laws with the stated intent of preventing thefts so as to reduce a major source of illegal guns for criminals.

It follows, then, that even if the UK assault weapon and handgun ban was not specifically intended to lower crime and homicide rates, it should have been a nice side effect. As should the 4 million police-monitored public-area surveillence cameras that have cropped up in the past couple of decades.

To see the ratio of US to UK gun ownership rates, see this post of mine. It includes links to my sources.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=132832&mesg_id=133002

[billbuckhead]

34. Let's cut to the chase. HOW MANY MURDERS WERE IN BRITAIN?

Tell us that. Admit it. Admit the truth, that it's far harder to kill people without guns.

[krispos42]

35. 820 in England and Wales

The population of England is about 50 million, and of Wales is 3 million. Total, 53 million people, or one-sixth of the US population. Homicide rate is 1.55 per one hundred thousand people per year. This is one-third of the current US homicide rate of 4.5 per 100k/year.

40 years ago, the US homicide rate was about 6.0 per 100k/year, looking at the chart. So ours is down about 30% or so compared to 1967.

40 years ago, the homicide rate in England and Wales was 0.73 per 100k/year, looking at page 54. So theirs is up 100% or so compared to 1967.

I have never said otherwise. I, in fact, noted the exact same thing I just re-stated above on December 18th of last year. We're getting better, they're getting worse. In 1967, our homicide rate was 8 times theirs. Now it is only 3 times theirs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=132832&mesg_id=133002

As to admitting it is far harder to kill people without guns, well, that's a topic deserving of some consideration. There is no doubt that it is easier in the mechanical aspect of it. Pulling a trigger is much easier than, say, beating somebody to death with a baseball bat or strangling them with your bare hands. Not that the latter is particularly hard, either, especially when, as typically happens, a man is killing a woman.

The fact that it is easier does not make it more likely to happen, though. I drive a car. On any given day I can kill somebody on the sidewalk much easier with my two-ton domestic sedan than I could jumping out of it with a club and engaging them in hand-to-hand combat. Yet, day in and day out I do neither.

Simply because it's easy does not make me eager to kill a person. The prohibition against killing that nearly all of us have ingained in us is not easily dismissed.

In my opinion guns can make rage killings easier. So-called 'crimes of passion', usually, but that can include mass shootings as well.

However, it is also my belief that it is offset by allowing normal, non-violent, non-criminal, non-predatory citizens defend themselves better against attack. It probably more than offsets the passion-crime numbers, actually. But, as evidenced by your passion, that is not what gets reported. Blood-drenched stories about husbands killing cheating wives make headlines for days, but a 2% drop in national homicides gets a 5-second commentary during the MSM news hour. Never mind that that 2% drop means 300 lives saved, it's the father that kills his family of 4 then himself that makes top-of-the-hour news for 4 days. Maybe even getting it's own nifty computer-generated graphics on CNN or MSNBC.

How's that?

[billbuckhead]

37. The USA must be doing something right to have over 12,000 every year!!!!

:sarcasm: You could total up all the nations of Europe and it would be far less. There can only be 2 explantions, either Americans are uniquely evil or our unique gun laws are responsible for this ongoing national tragedy.

WE NOW HAVE A HIGHER MURDER RATE THAN INDIA!

<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders>
<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>

[krispos42]

39. You still haven't addressed the fundamental issues I raised

Until you do, we are not having a dialogue, we're having two unresponsive, overlapping monologues.

What is the UK doing that is so terrible that their homicide rate is going up while ours is going down?

[billbuckhead]

40. Why does the USA have multiples higher murder rate than similar nations?

The only real difference is easy access to guns or Americans are worse people.

As far as the Uk homicide rate rising, they're just copying American violence glamorized by the gun culture and Hollywood.

[krispos42]

43. The only real difference?

:rofl:

Well, have fun in your bubble. Say hi to Bush for me.

Tell me, what will you do when you and people like you get their way... and nothing changes? Who will you blame then?

[billbuckhead]

45. Crooked voting machines and a corrupt supreme court put Bush in, not gun nuts

Your side lost the fair election and could only win through corruption.

Keep laughing about Bush being power, it reveals your true colors and lack of humanity.

[krispos42]

46. Um.... non sequitur?

I was talking about some sort of near-total gun ban, not crooked voting machines or anything else like that.




You think I WANT Bush in power? You think I want this in MY country? I have a two-year-old, dammit.



Or some nutjob that worships THIS Jesus controlling MY country?


You think I want THIS as national executive policy???


Puh-leez. You think I have Old Glory in my sig because I'm some sort of flag-waving Bush-savant?

No.

I'm not letting the beautiful flag of MY country be the sole province of fascists.





Besides, I took the picture myself and think I did quite a good job of it. :-)

[michreject]

10. Unless Mexico changed their laws, that's not true

Mexican citizens cannot own a caliber that's in use by the police or military, ergo the most popular round for civilian marksmen is the .38 Super in a 1911 platform.

[krispos42]

21. I stand corrected

Maybe all guns that were over .17 caliber had to be registered. My bad.

[michreject]

27. Not a problem

We're on the same side. Unlike others, we need to point out facts, not hyperbole, like some we know.;)

[Wcross]

5. Or die on my knees for the anti-gun minions?

Being a realist I understand that gun technology is over 300 years old. Have you ever heard of a "zip gun"? So do away with legal sources of guns and the criminals/physcopaths will suddenly have no access?
Tennessee. West Virginia. Think about it.

[billbuckhead]

6. You'd get that zip gun stuck up your ass in a real fight, maybe you might shoot someone in the back

I guess you can make an assault rifle in your garage too? What a bunch of gunloving fantasy crap.

:crazy:

[Wcross]

11. Ah, the voice of reason.

The fact that you can't control your rage helps me understand where you are coming from Bill. You have to understand that not all of us have that rage inside.

Thank you for being a poster boy for those that wish us defenseless. You don't even know me and you speculate on my chances in a fight?

I thought I would have to argue facts with you this evening but you are my best ally in this discussion. Thank you very much Bill, and good evening.

[billbuckhead]

14. You're the one talking about shooting people with zip gun

Talk about projection.

I guess you would have kids making them in shop class?

[Wcross]

23. Grow up Bill.

You obviously are a drama queen that does not deserve to be taken seriously.
Good day sir.

[billbuckhead]

26. Grow up back, whatever your first name is

:eyes: I suggest anyone on the fence on this 30,000 dead Americans and over 100 billion dollars in cost issue, go to a gun show and see what kind of people are these gun "enthusiasts" and if you trust people like that with these weapons around your family.

[michreject]

28. I go to gun shows all the time

Sometimes (more often than not) I buy a gun.

[Wcross]

29. My first name is John.

I would also ask the fence sitters to consider this. Will a school shooter obey the gun prohibition in a gun free zone? How come we don't hear about mass shootings at gun shows? Mass shootings at rifle ranges? Mass shootings at gun stores? Military bases? Police stations? Gun clubs?
How come the highest body count is always where guns are prohibited?

[billbuckhead]

30. Murderers don't obey laws so let's do away with murder laws!!!!!

Law is an intellectual tool that allows us to get along together to the benefit of everyone. Traffic laws, banking laws, food safety laws, international laws, etc allow us to live a modern profitable cosmopolitan life interacting with others around the world. Allowing an unregulated cross section of society the power of semiautomatic weapons over society in all situations is the epitome of state sponsered random terror. The only answer is either everyone carries guns almost all the time like in Iraq or almost no one carrys guns almost all the time like recently rated best nation in the world to live in, Ireland. Which do you really prefer. Metal detectors at your child's kindergarden? Metal detectors and Blackwater security at fast food joints? Teachers with guns strapped to their bodies. Police being forced to carry fully automatic M-16's and drive around in armored cars? This is where the gun nuts are leading America.

[Wcross]

32. So you are saying that gun free zones don't work?

I hope we have come to agreement on that point. Now the question is if we allow law abiding honest people to be able to defend themselves or not, right?

[billbuckhead]

33. Works far better than gun full zones so the gun lobby can sell more guns

There is no way to tell who is a law abiding honest person till they do or don't kill you with a gun. The only way is give no one the advantage of legal guns. It works everywhere it's been tried across a nation. American's aren't inherently worse than the French, Aussies, Canadians, Indians, Dutch, Kiwi's, Spanish, Brit's, Germans, Irish, Italians, Swedes, Japanese........... or even those freedom hating Massachusetts people.
-----------------snip-------------------
Compared with other developed nations, the United States is unique in its high rates of both gun ownership and murder. Although widespread gun ownership does not have much effect on the overall crime rate, gun use does make criminal violence more lethal and has a unique capacity to terrorize the public. Gun crime accounts for most of the costs of gun violence in the United States, which are on the order of $100 billion per year.
---------snip---------------
<http://www.brookings.edu/press/books/evaluatinggunpolicy.htm>
-----------snip-----------------
"It's not as if a 19-year-old in the United States is more evil than a 19-year-old in Australia—there's no evidence for that," Hemenway explains. "But a 19-year-old in America can very easily get a pistol. That's very hard to do in Australia. So when there's a bar fight in Australia, somebody gets punched out or hit with a beer bottle. Here, they get shot."

In general, guns don't induce people to commit crimes. "What guns do is make crimes lethal," says Hemenway. They also make suicide attempts lethal: about 60 percent of suicides in America involve guns. "If you try to kill yourself with drugs, there's a 2 to 3 percent chance of dying," he explains. "With guns, the chance is 90 percent."

Gun deaths fall into three categories: homicides, suicides, and accidental killings. In 2001, about 30,000 people died from gunfire in the United States. Set this against the 43,000 annual deaths from motor-vehicle accidents to recognize what startling carnage comes out of a barrel. The comparison is especially telling because cars "are a way of life," as Hemenway explains. "People use cars all day, every day—and 'motor vehicles' include trucks. How many of us use guns?"
------------snip---------------------
<http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090433.html>

[billbuckhead]

31. The highest body count has been New Orleans and red states in general

And the capital of the old confederacy, Richmond is rated worse for murder than Metro Washingtin D.C. Gary is rated worse for murder than Chicago.

and heres a link. <http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime3.aspx>

[qdemn7]

15. "Gunloving fantasy crap?"

Really?? Then read this: http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/index.shtml

This firearm design is perhaps the simplest of all improvised SMG' designs. Constructed using off the shelf British Standard Pipe fittings and hardware products.

What sort of smartass answer do you have now? :grr:

[billbuckhead]

17. This gun is so effective there were only 46 gun homicides in Britain last year

That thing will kill more gunner perps from explosion than the under 200 justifiable homicides per year in the USA.

I guess that's why the gun lover crowd calls it "gun porn".

[billbuckhead]

19. What's this fixations with killing people on their knees?

Japan has few guns and you have to admit those people can make anything and you have to admit they have almost no gun crime, "zipguns" or not.

[mudesi]

7. Stop it.

Your entire post is complete and utter hogwash.

[Wcross]

12. Care to expound on that or should I just take your word for it? nt

[buddysmellgood]

8. The crazy kid at V-Tech was not denied a gun. Permits mean nothing.

[billbuckhead]

13. You gun pimps are forcing everyone to become armed like a third world hell

I think that's what many gun pimps fantasize about.

[BlooInBloo]

16. Obviously the solution to gun crime is more guns. What are people bitching about?

[SoCalDem]

18. OH MY GOD, Lucille .. you just shot the substitute teacher

:rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

22. Sometimes "responsible adults" "go postal."

How do they plan to deal with the possible scenario where an armed teacher, who flips out from so much stress and anger at being sorely underpaid, decides to kill everyone in the classroom?

If looks could kill, I would have been murdered by a dozen teachers in my lifetime... and I was a good kid... most of the time. :evilgrin:

If I was a kid and I knew teachers were armed, I'd make sure I was carrying something of a higher caliber.

[Enthusiast]

24. Consider this possible senario....

A teacher returns to the classroom to find several students engaged in sex, right on top of their desks. This teacher is an evangelical type and a true believer in abstinence. She is as shocked as some of the more sheltered 5th grade students. She feels compelled to stop this evil at all costs so she blasts away at the offenders.

Just sayin'............

[aikoaiko]

25. If adults meet their state's requirements for concealed carry, I'm fine with teachers carrying.

I'm a college professor and I would be happy to not leave my gun in my car or back at home when I go to work.

[live love laugh]

36. I like this part: "You stupid fuck. I hope you die." nt

[LWolf]

38. Let's ponder:

--the general distrust and disrespect among the bipartisan general public for teachers and other adults at local schools

--the fragile tightrope the teacher currently walks in the classroom to ensure that no lawsuit will be forthcoming when enforcing rules or classroom discipline

I'm supposed to want to pack a gun in my classroom? No thanks.

I'd take a bullet for my kids any moment of any day. If teachers routinely pack loaded firearms, who will be the first target of any gunman? Some adults, or all? Am I supposed to assume that I'd have time to drag the gun out of the holster, flip off the safety, and fire before an intruder got a shot at me?

I guess if a shooter was busy slaughtering everyone next door, I'd have time. The first victims are without help, though. Meanwhile, I have to spend every minute of every day guarding the damned gun just in case someone ever goes postal on campus. Somewhat of a distraction, in my professional opinion.

I wonder how parents would feel about me patrolling the classroom with a gun. I sure as hell wouldn't want my grandson in a room with a loaded gun and a 30-1 student-adult ratio. I don't see this as a move that would build trust in an already strained national parent-teacher relationship. I also wonder: what are the odds of a gun going off for any accidental reasons? In an environment where students outnumber adults by a significant amount, and adults are continuously multitasking and trying to keep up with the demands of a tight schedule, I'm sure mistakes would happen.

I'd like to do my job: teach. I'm not an armed guard.

[billbuckhead]

42. This is just part of the assault on reason, they want America to devolve into chaos

Imagine how terrible America would be if everyone was armed to the teeth. That's what the military industrial complex arms merchants, it's corporate reichwing fellow travelers and their stink tanks like the AEI and Faux News watching masses want. They all just want to kill people for power and profit.

[LWolf]

44. I have no problem with self-defense,

or with gun ownership, for that matter.

It's the mentality that links the 2 irrevocably with the idea that we can't be safe if we aren't armed. It promotes a culture of fear and violence, imo.

I think that I am just as safe by going forward with my life without fear as I would be if I were looking for an assault at any moment. More safe, even. The culture of fear invites and then multiplies violence.

Weapons don't make me feel safe, they make me tense. They focus my attention on what they might be used for, rather than how I want to live my life.

[dogday]

41. God, Guns and Country

You are now entering the Great State Of South Carolina.....