You know, it's just a SLIGHT tax increase on the poor

[Hello_Kitty]

They'll do WORSE if we let the tax cuts expire! Don't you care about poor people???

- Lawrence O'Donnell

[DJ13]

1. All this fighting over a measly 3% increase on the top bracket

Its a shame the poor dont have this kind of governmental representation, isnt it?

[phleshdef]

2. Letting all tax cuts expire will lead to a 50% tax increase on the poor.

And the "deal" that everyone is so pissed about cuts taxes for the poor more than the original Democratic plan or McConnell's plan.



I'm all for extending the MWP tax credit that Obama himself passed almost 2 years ago. But its chump change compared to what some here are advocating, which is letting ALL tax cuts just expire.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. So it's totally fair that people making $20k or less are the only people who will see an increase?

That chart is wrong. Obama traded the Make Work Pay credit ($400 for singles $800 for couples) for the payroll tax cut. For people in the lower brackets the payroll cut is less than the credit. IOW, a tax increase.

[phleshdef]

6. I've been at 20,000 in income before. A few dollars a pay check is still insignficant.

As a matter of principle, of course I don't think its "fair". But its also so insignificant that its not worth making an issue over it.

And no, that chart is 100% correct. Its showing the average tax cuts when factoring in all of the tax cuts and credits as a whole that hypothetically would be passed. I'm sorry it doesn't cater itself to your talking point, but thats a problem with your talking point, not the chart.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. The chart doesn't factor in the loss of the Make Work Pay credit so it's wrong and misleading

And great to see you're so blase about chiseling the poor out of a few bucks. Not like they need it or anything.

[phleshdef]

24. I'm not sure that it doesn't factor that in. But it does factor in the renewal of the EITC.

Which is another reason I'm not sure about the validity of this meme thats being pushed by your OP. I checked the site where they are getting their data and it doesn't say whether or not its factoring in other tax credits that people at that income range qualify for. Its just showing the difference between the tax cuts when comparing MWP vs 2% payroll tax holiday.

[DJ13]

10. Its not insignificant

Its trading a lump sum $400 to $800 refund for a few extra dollars in a paycheck that dont add up to close to the same amount.

And...... it further erodes the Social Security fund at the same time.

Its a double whammy.

[phleshdef]

22. I think you got your numbers wrong.

Yes there is a gap there, but its not very significant at all.

[Hello_Kitty]

25. It's about $200! That's a lot when you make $20k or less.

And it's utterly unfair bullshit of the highest magnitude that the poorest Americans are the only people getting a tax increase under this plan. I called my Congresscritters, how about you?

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

[phleshdef]

26. LOL. At its WORST, its $1.44 a month.

Please. Spare me.

Its something that should be fixed before anything is passed. But its not something to cry over.

[Hello_Kitty]

27. It's $200 a year. Look at the last column.

And even if it's 2 cents it needs to be fixed. It's regressive as shit and bogus and unfair.

[phleshdef]

28. You are either having a vision problem or a math problem.

There is no difference between any of the numbers listed that are greater than 172 a year, which is $1.44 a month.

[Hello_Kitty]

32. You need a new calculator. $172 a year is $14.33 a month. And look at the chart again.

For <$10k the disparity between Make Work Pay and SS cut is $197. That's a lot of money when you only make 10 grand. And it's taking a credit that would show up as $315 in your refund check (a big deal when you're poor) and replacing it with about $2.50 in your weekly paycheck. And a $197 increase in your taxes.

[phleshdef]

34. Ok, yea its my math and eyesight thats off.

I did 215-118, it was 315.

However, I've still yet to see if this difference is or isn't effected by other credits.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. It may be offset somewhat for families with EITC increases

For singles or couples with no minor children it's a straight up tax increase.

[ipaint]

30. My god. That is sick. nt

[CBGLuthier]

31. not worth making an issue over?

Oh well, we poor just want to thank you for not giving two shits since it doesn't affect you.

[phleshdef]

35. Give me a break. The only reason I can stomach this compromise at all is because...

...at the end of the day, it guarantees that the poor is going to get help whereas letting the whole thing expire, which seems to be the only other doable option, will actually do a substantial amount of financial damage to the lowest incomes.

[karynnj]

18. The charts aren't wrong - but they don't show what you (and I) would like as a 4th line -

- the current rates. Better yet, create the same three lines vs the current rates.

These are all benchmearked against the January rates if nothing is done. That is why all show as cuts. The Make Work pay credit is expiring, so it is not included in the 1/1 baseline.

It seems that it would be a no brainer to change the write the bill to keep that segment whole, it would be easy because the amount of the credit is a constant - and the payroll taxes are a rate times the income. Adding into the tax determination - something that subtracts an amount equal to ( Amount of the MWPC minus the break from the payroll holiday ) if this is greater than zero. (or something that gives this bracket a little more than had - as the payroll holiday does for everyone above the point where they are the same value.)

I agree with O'Donnell that it is better than where they would be doing nothing - but, as everyone else actually gets a break, it seems that this segment - of all segments - should absolutely not pay more. There is no way to defend this - and it's just tone deaf.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. I called my 2 Senators and Congressman just a few minutes ago.

Granted, they're McCain, Kyl, and Shadegg but I still wanted to make them aware of this, as you say, easily fixable problem.

[karynnj]

23. Good idea

There is no reason that Senators of either party should not want the fix - compared to the cost of this entire thing - the cost is almost round off error.

[littlewolf]

4. Ok the cuts expire ... so does UI ....

then in Jan the GOP house does what it wants ... and the Senate controlled by the Dems goes along ...
because they saw what happened in NOV and 2012 ... more Dems are up for reelection the GOP ...
and it will be worse then what they are asking for now ....

[Hello_Kitty]

5. So you're cool with a little tax increase on the poorest while everyone else gets a cut

Just so we're clear on that.

[phleshdef]

7. So you're cool with a 50% tax increase on the poorest during a jobs recession.

Just so we're clear on that.

[littlewolf]

8. What I am saying is that this seems like as good as

we can get ... and in Jan it will be worse ... so which one do YOU want ?

[Hello_Kitty]

11. False choice.

We would get unemployment and middle class tax cuts without this shitty deal.

[phleshdef]

12. Right, because deep down, Republicans really DO care!

[Hello_Kitty]

15. About appeasing their constituents, yes.

They all have unemployed people in their districts. Yes, Virginia, there are unemployed Republicans. As for middle class tax cuts, fuggeddaboutit. Three magic words: Child Tax Credit. It would be cut in half, which would enrage middle class Republican mommies and daddies across the land.

[phleshdef]

17. They voted against middle class tax cuts all ready. They voted against UI extensions all ready.

And the latter happened before the 2010 elections. They were not punished for it. They have no reason to feel like they can't blame it all on Democrats and get away with it. And they are probably right.

[Hello_Kitty]

21. self delete - thought I was responding to something else.

[Hello_Kitty]

13. BTW, I just called my 2 Senators and Congressman about this. How about you?

You could bring awareness to this injustice in the tax plan or you can sit there and say "oh well it was the best we could get!"

[phleshdef]

14. As far as I can tell. Sherrod Brown and George Voinovich both oppose it.

Oddly enough.

[Hello_Kitty]

19. It would be a good idea to call or email them then.

And make them aware of this problem. All kidding aside, this is something that can be addressed in the bill. It will only take a minute. http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

[Octafish]

16. Tells us what we need to know about Larry.

"Money trumps peace." -- George Walker Bush, Feb. 14, 2007

[rucky]

29. It's not like the Clinton tax policy was that unfair.

and we did oppose the Bush tax policy when Bush was in office.

[Hello_Kitty]

33. I'm not arguing that letting the cuts expire is worse for the poor.

I'm saying this still puts the poor in a worse position than they were last year. This problem with the plan is easily fixed if we put pressure on Congress to amend the plan. All they'd have to do is reinstate part of the Make Work Pay credit to those income levels. It's not only mean and unfair to chisel poor people out of a few bucks like this but it's anti-stimulative as well.

[Union Scribe]

37. Meanwhile, the rich can't even find enough places to cram all the money

they're walking away with. Grand fucking larceny.