What drives a woman to this cruelty?

[malaise]

Of course I'm assuming that it was murder-suicide.

Why does a 23 year old have four children? How does a poor woman separated from her husband support four young children working at Wendys? How is she so helpless in the richest country on the planet? Fugg society has failed.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/29/children.killed.ap/index.html

[babylonsister]

1. Desperation, hopelessness? Very sad... nt

[LostinVA]

2. OMG -- how horrible

[AlCzervik]

3. what drives any of them that do the same thing. I wish they would just kill

themselves and not take their children with them.

[frankly_fedup2]

47. You're talking about a person who does not have a rationale mind.

A person that could do something this horrible to four children in some distorted way in her psychotic episode probably believed she was helping them in some way. The woman in Texas said she was saving them from going to Hell. It sounds like a pathetic excuse but these are not rational minds at work here. They see things you don't see and hear things that you don't hear. A lot of the time, the family surrounding them does not even pick up on any strange things they may do. She had an 8-month-old baby. That tells me for up to 8 months (could be longer because post-partum depression can begin while the woman is still pregnant), this woman's mind had so warped her way of thinking, she was able to commit such a horrible act. She has had 8 or more months of internal torture. I have had psychological pain and physical pain and I will take the physical pain any day. At least they can treat it and help it immediately. That's not the case with a psychosis. It can take months or years of medications or different cocktails of medications to get that person to a functioning state of mind. Then once they are back in the reality we all share, they have to live with what they did and they suffer the rest of their lives for what they have done.

[iconoclastic cat]

4. I'm going with untreated mental illness. nt

[barb162]

56. Me too, plus add in a very bad economic situation

[sandnsea]

61. Pretty big 'duh' there

What drives people to cluck cluck over the obvious, and do NOTHING to fix the problem, preferring vengeance through the prison system.

[AspenRose]

5. Untreated postpartum depression

That's my suspicion....

[terisan]

6. Despair.

[emilyg]

13. I agree.

[BlooInBloo]

7. I always assumed it was The Crazy.

[AndyA]

8. It just makes you sick,doesn't it?

We have to send billions of dollars to a foreign country while people here in our very own country are suffering to a level where they do these things.

Words just can't describe how sad this is.

[malaise]

10. That was my first thought

How many millions more are living in poverty and desperation? Does anyone really care? But she really didn't have to kill her kids.

I hope the little eighth month old who survives gets a better deal in life than her mother.

Any bets that no politicians will go near their funerals.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

9. Utter Selfishness. Nothing Less.

What an absolutely evil one she is. Just read the article a bit ago.

[malaise]

11. That's way too simplistic

Who am I to call her evil when I don't know her circumstances.

[Madspirit]

22. "Simple" is his way of looking at the depth...

It's easier on the brain and requires no stepping outside of oneself and it requires no compassion or understanding.
Lee

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. You Can Have Compassion For The Cold Blooded Killer. Mine Goes Out To The Infants And Kids.

To each their fucking own.

[Madspirit]

45. I Have Compassion For Them All...n/t

[renie408]

49. You know what the cool thing about compassion is?

You can have it for more than one person at a time. I have compassion for both the innocent children who died and for the desperately poor, desperately alone single mother who snapped and killed both them and herself.

[Zavulon]

152. This is out of curiousity, nothing more, but

did you have compassion for the VT killer, too? I swear I don't mean this as sarcasm, I'm being sincere. He too was desperate, alone, and someone who clearly snapped.

I admit I side with Operation Mindcrime on this, but I reiterate that my question is sincere and not mockery or sarcasm.

[renie408]

161. Yes, actually, I did. I enjoy just being alive. I feel sympathy

for anyone who cannot share in that. Of course I felt sorry for a lonely, screwed up kid whose only way to reach out to people was to stalk them. I feel horribly empathetic to a young girl with four small children who is so confused and desperate that she hangs them. I do not feel sorry for people who kill for their own profit. But I feel very sorry for people...any people...who are so damaged that they see killing as a solution to their troubles or who are so filled with rage that they feel compelled to kill. It doesn't mean that I excuse their actions or that I feel MORE sorry for them than for the people they killed. It just means that I can see where they are tortured and, in most of the cases I have read about, let down by the people around them. It is a horrible thing for everyone involved.

[Zavulon]

163. Fair enough, and thanks for the answer.

I don't spend a lot of time in GD because there tends to be a lot of acrimony here, so as sad as it is to say, I'm as surprised to get a civil answer to my question in GD as I am appreciative. Sincere thanks.

Elsewhere in the thread, operationmindcrime made the point that the mother had a million other options. She could have turned the kids over to the father, over to social services, maybe just left them in a blanket in front of a police station, whatever. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, we obviously don't agree, but I still think there was enough premeditation in her efforts to say to me that she had other options.

The VT killer said something like "you had a hundred million chances to avoid today." I think he had a hundred million chances to do something other than what he did. I have no sympathy for him at all. The world would probably be a better place if it had more people like you and less like me, but I can't work up any thought for him other than "burn in hell, you bleeping piece of bleep."

The reason why I asked you what I did is that I lurked in GD the day of the shootings; there were a lot more threads and posts about VT with less than half the sympathy that this mother is getting on the board (or at least that's what I saw). I was just wondering why that was; I picked your post to ask because you struck me as least likely to blow a gasket.

Anyway, we have to agree to disagree, but I do appreciate the thoughtful answer.

[MissB]

172. I'm not the poster you were talking to.

:) Nice, kind exchange of posts in GD. How unusual. :)

Anyway, since the other poster didn't answer yet, I thought I'd just throw out the idea of postpartum psychosis as something the mother could've been suffering from. It doesn't make one rational.

[Zavulon]

175. Geez, nice attention span on my part. Sorry about that.

I still can't excuse the murder of the kids, though. There HAD to be another way.

[MissB]

179. Oh, there was certainly another way.

But postpartum psychosis doesn't make one logical. It really is sad for all concerned.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. Sorry. When She Hangs A 5 Yr Old, 3 Yr Old, 2 Yr Old And 8 Month Old, She's A Selfish Evil POS.

That's enough circumstance for me to know.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. If she's selfish, why'd she committ suicide?

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. Excuse Me? Suicide Is Absolutely Selfish Within Itself.

But even forsaking that, if she wasn't selfish she would've called someone to take the kids first and then killed herself. She didn't. It was her way or no way. She killed her kids in a horrible manner. She's cold, selfish and evil in my opinion. Think of her as you wish. I will think of her as I wish. And there ain't no way in hell I'm gonna give that murderer any sympathy right now. How dare she. How fucking dare she.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. How?

Isn't killing yourself the opposite of selfish?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

77. No, It Isn't.

And if you can't figure out for yourself why it is in fact selfish, then damned if I'm gonna waste my time explaining it to you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. You won't explain it, because you can't.

Calling suicide "selfish" just doesn't make any sort of sense.

[H2O Man]

107. Without taking any

position on this case -- because those who do are at very best speculating, and more frequently projecting -- it might be worth considering that there are numerous factors that can be involved in suicide. When we think of the soldier who willingly throws himself on the grenade, though he commits suicide, he is recognized as a hero.

Teens often engage in "high risk" behaviors that can cause their death. This includes drinking and driving when in a state of emotional turmoil. In those cases, the family and friends often are left wondering if the teen intended suicide.

Other people commit suicide because of severe depression, grief, or other mental illnesses.The circumstances involved can span so wide a range, that it would be foolish to pretend that they are all alike.

In cases of a parent killing offspring then commiting suicide, there are some differing views, which often relate to sex. If a father kills his kids then himself, there tends to be a bit less sympathy. Many people view it as a very selfish, punative action. When a mother does it, people often view it very differently. This difference in views often has less to do with the circumstances, than with the person who is making the judgement.

In many cases, suicide indeed involves a high degree of selfishness. This is because few things in life can cause such problems for those who survive and mourn the person who suicided. The children of a parent who commits suicide is statistically more likely to attempt/commit suicide.

It is a complex subject. There is no single right answer to help people understand suicide.

[raccoon]

111. I'm really surprised you posted that.

"suicide indeed involves a high degree of selfishness.

[H2O Man]

160. You might be.

Of course, that was only part of what my post was about.

[treestar]

121. I've heard the rationale behind the family annihilator as being

that the children are dependent on them, and since they are killing themselves, that will leave the children/family with no one.

Not that it makes sense, and isn't horrible, but that's the basic explanation.

[malaise]

158. I've heard that

MSNBC says she was depressed.

[H2O Man]

169. Right.

That appears to be the reasoning in many cases.

[Jed Dilligan]

117. Durkheim described egoistic, altruistic, and anomic forms

of suicide in his classic book on the subject.

Egoistic="I'm too good to live"

Altruistic="I'm not good enough to live"

Anomic="I don't know how to live"

Although the first category could be seen on some level as "selfish"--usually, this form manifests as suicide ATTEMPTS--I am 99.999999% sure that the case in question is either altruistic or anomic.

[JVS]

79. Self-destruction and self-sacrifice are not the same thing

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. How is self-destruction selfish?

[JVS]

92. I never made that assertion, but you said suicide is the opposite of selfishness.

And I think that your idea is incorrect. Suicide usually does not help other people, and has a lot to do with the individual's exercising of control. I'd like to see your argument for suicide being the opposite of selfishness. Durkheim even had a whole category of suicide called "egoistic suicide"
http://durkheim.itgo.com/suicide.html

There is a type of suicide called altruistic, but with this mom it is clearly not the case. Thus the difference between self-sacrifice and self-destruction.

[raccoon]

110. That statement shows you know nothing about mental illness.

"Suicide Is Absolutely Selfish Within Itself"

If you've never experienced clinical depression, nor been close to anyone who has, you can't imagine the emotional pain that a clinically depressed person could be in. A pain they would do anything to stop, such as committing suicide.

I've heard people say in 12-step meetings that suicide is a selfish act. I conclude they are ignorant about mental illness.

[JVS]

74. You have a point, but OTOH if she's not, why did she take everyone with her

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. Because she was completely insane?

:shrug:

[JVS]

93. Maybe, maybe not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. Maybe not?

What, then, do you suppose her motive was?

[JVS]

100. No, you provide evidence of what you suppose her motive was

I'm in a state of doubt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

102. I don't think she had a motive at all.

Like I said, I think she was nuts.

[JVS]

105. Well that's nice that you have your opinion

[SammyWinstonJack]

87. I purposely did not read the article because I did not want to know how

they died. :wow:

[alcibiades_mystery]

138. Do you ever get tired of

being a knee-jerk know-nothing?

I'm curious.

Unless your whole schtick on these boards is just a bizarre act, which is possible and even likely, since nobody could consistently be such an ignorant asshole.

[High Plains]

19. Must be nice to be able to sit in judgement like that.

How is the air up in your rarified circles?

Utter desperation is probably more accurate.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. Nope. Utter Selfishness And Evil Would Be Far More Likely.

And excuse me for not playing the 'awwwww, poor woman must've been desperate' card to some selfish piece of garbage that just tied clothes around her 5 yr old, 3 yr old, 2 yr old and 8 month olds' necks and hung them.

Fuck her.

[malaise]

28. We do not know her circumstances

I refuse to judge her.

[frankly_fedup2]

29. Your ignorance regarding post-partum depression is pathetic

No person with a healthy mental state would do such a thing to their children nor themselves. Until you walk in those shoes, you should not be so ignorantly judgemental. Hope it never happens in your family because no one knows what tomorrow can bring.

[AngryAmish]

37. There is no evidence of PPD

(at least from the posted article)

Maybe she was just plain mean.

Either way one just can't make assumptions. It is infantilizing and, at core, paternalistic.

[Beaverhausen]

42. A little soon to make that assumption, don't you think?

[AngryAmish]

46. That is my point

Presuming to diagnose a medical condition from a newspaper article is wrong.

It is OK to say things are unknown. Making a snap judgment is wrong.

[alcibiades_mystery]

144. I agree

Post partum depression and psychosis are quite real chemical events in the body, and cannot be inferred from general results. Neither, however, can metaphysical propositions, like the presence of "evil." We don't know enough at this point to land on either side of these (I tend not to land on the side of the metaphysical propositions in any case...;-))

[renie408]

50. There is evidence of a 23 year old who had four kids in five years

and was living in a single wide trailer with no help and no support on just about no money. I don't think you would have to be mean, evil or selfish to snap and do what this girl did. Just damaged and hopeless.

[AngryAmish]

71. Let us examine your statement and see if they square with known facts

1. 23 year old having 4 kids in 5 years
-more or less supported by evidence

2. living in a single wide trailer
- I can't tell from the photo but this may be true.

3. No support
-no evidence of no support. In fact the article says her sister was stopping by and discovered the murdered kids. So we are assuming she has no support in the absence of evidence for that assumption.

4. just about no money
- No evidence. She worked at Wendy's, her husband may give her money or her family. This is unknown and a faulty assumption to make.

5. Damaged and hopeless
- No evidence.

She may be mean, she may be damaged, she may be a raving lunatic. We do not know.

A case like this allows a person to impute their prejudices and "fill in the blanks" on a canvas with very few facts. We know next to nothing and should not make assumptions.

[gollygee]

76. You can make some reasonable guesses

like, if she's living in a single-wide trailer, chances are she doesn't have much money.

[Critters2]

81. I think hanging one's own children is evidence of "damaged" nt

[AngryAmish]

89. It could just as easily be evidence of evilness

Your preference is damaged. Fine. But have no illusions otherwise.

[renie408]

130. I tend to think that people that commit suicide are, perhaps, not the most

mentally healthy individuals, regardless of whether they do it after they kill their four small children. Suicide is generally seen as a sign of some sort of mental disturbance. But again...I am not a psychologist.

[alcibiades_mystery]

146. Evidence of "evilness"?

Come on, now.

Evilness?

Really?

[AngryAmish]

164. Perhaps you prefer "a person who does really bad things to other people"

Evil is shorter.

[alcibiades_mystery]

185. That's quite a translation

I thoroughly believe that people do awful things to other people. I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in evil, so it's not really shorthand in my view.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

177. She rates 9.2 Vaders on the Hitlometer.

:shrug:

[renie408]

125. Hanging your four kids and making a run for it is evil. Hanging your four kids

and then hanging yourself is damaged. Susan Smith is evil. I think it is very possible that this girl was overwhelmed and incapable of handling her situation. I think a major sign of that is hanging your kids and then yourself. But hey, I am no psychologist....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Ain't Nothin You Can Say That Would Change My Opinion Of Her Being A Cold Blooded Killer.

How dare she do that to those innocent children. How fucking dare she.

[renie408]

51. Your rigidness and inability to empathize must be a great comfort

to you. It eliminates the need for any complicated thought processes, after all.

[frankly_fedup2]

52. Then you can wallow in your ignorance. No clear-minded individual

would do such a thing. This women obviously was mentally ill. No mother would do that to her children. Andrea Yates was psychotic at the time she killed her kids. Seems like the same case to me except the children were hung instead of drowned . . . both horrible ways to die. These women obviously have been screaming out for months for some kind of help, but their families obviously were not paying too close attention to a person going insane. Being psychotic is being insane.

You obviously have no one or have never known anyone with mental illness. If you had, you would not be so ignorant with your comments.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

59. Oh Blah Blah Blah. Anyone Who Kills Anyone Is Mentally Ill.

And I'm fed up with the whole premise that we always have to feel oh so sorry for these cold blooded murderers. I ain't buyin it.

If she was aware enough to tie clothes around her kids' fucking necks to hang them to death then she was MOST CERTAINLY aware enough to call her husband and ask him to take them from her. But guess what pal, she didn't. She had a million options to choose but instead she chose cold blooded fucking murder. Wanna know why? Cause she's fucking selfish and evil. Fuck her.

[malaise]

Not anyone but some are mentally

ill. She made a really bad choice -why? I don't know why, but I will not judge anyone who has reached the nadir of despair.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

90. cold blooded?

Why do you think that it was cold blooded?

Doesn't the fact that she killed herself pretty much mean that it wasn't cold blooded?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

94. Oh Enough Already. She Hung 4 Children By Their Necks. Pretty Fuckin Cold Blooded To Me Pal.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

97. cold blooded describes emotional distachment.

It's used to describe, say, mafia hitmen who kill other gangsters for money, without any sort of remorse.

Killing herself sort of implies she had remorse, don't you think?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

101. Killing Herself Makes Her A Coward. Killing Her 4 Young Children Makes Her Cold Blooded.

Say all you want. I really don't give a shit. You can feel about her however you want. But your opinion carries NO MORE WEIGHT than mine does, so please stop trying to convince me that I'm wrong somehow.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Mine is that she's a cold hearted piece of shit murderer. Fuck her.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

104. She's a coward now?

How could she be a coward? She killed herself. Isn't that the polar opposite of what cowards do?

[JVS]

108. Please explain this strange connection you make with suicide and bravery.

I'm not understanding your point

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

114. Where are you reading that?

I'm not making a connection between suicide and bravery.

I'm saying killing one's self is the last thing a coward would do.

[JVS]

119. You keep saying that suicide is the opposite of what cowards do

Is the opposite of cowardly not brave? How is suicide the opposite of cowardly? You're not making any sense.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. Explain to me how suicide is cowardly.

Cowards are people who'll do anything to protect themselves, right? To a fault?

So how is killing yourself in any way cowardly? If a person were cowardly, killing themself would be the last thing they'd do, right?

[JVS]

124. If you are afraid of experiencing what is coming, killing yourself is a way...

to spare yourself the experience. This could easily be construed as cowardly.

Now your turn, explain to me how killing yourself is the last thing a cowardly person would want to do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. Wait a minute...

scared of the thing that's coming, but not scared of death?

That's not making any sense.

[JVS]

131. Now your turn, explain to me how killing yourself is the last thing a cowardly person would do

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. My turn?

Your "turn" never made sense.

Obviously somebody who committs suicide isn't afraid of death. How are people who aren't afraid of death cowards?

[JVS]

136. Explain how they aren't

[geek_sabre]

174. You're assuming that

death is the greatest thing to fear. You don't have to be afraid of everything to be a coward.

Have you had a friend or relative commit suicide?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

176. Isn't it?

And no, I haven't. Why?

[alcibiades_mystery]

150. OMC just wants to thump his chest and exude righteousness

You should leave him be.

It's a necessary display.

Gorilla-esque and stupid, but necessary.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

162. No, I'm Just Not Ridiculous Enough To Excuse This Piece Of Shit's Behavior.

That ain't 'chest thumpin' pal. It's called callin it like I see it.

This selfish piece of shit just tied clothes around a 5 yr old, 3 yr old, 2 yr old and 8 month olds' necks and hung them to death. I think she's a selfish piece of shit for having done so. That makes me an asshole? Fuck that. It makes me one of the only sane goddamn people in this fucking thread.

Criticize and attack all you want. You have your opinion and hooray for you pal. But I have mine. She's a piece of shit. The end. Goodbye.

[alcibiades_mystery]

167. Oh ho ho

He calls 'em like he sees 'em. Oh, what a man! Straight talkin' MAN! Yeehaw!

You're a fool.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

178. Excuses? Who's making excuses?

We're just trying get you to justify your own opinions.

:shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

182. you are wrong OMC- and it isn't about "opinions"- this woman

was NOT "a piece of shit"- she was a human being just like you, and me, and every one.

And whatever drove her to believe death was the only option for herself,... and the posibility that what she did, (in her eyes) was not an act of hate, selfishness, or cruelty- but rather an act of love- (however 'crazy' that may seem to everyone else) still exists.

You want to talk about selfish- lets start by looking at the way we treat each other in this country- how cruel, ugly and self-righteous we are- look at it right here in this thread.

Our society is sick- our selfish, ego-centric, pleasure first, attitude is bringing us down from within.

If you think you are sane and everyone else is crazy, that is when it's time to worry- :dunce:

A healthy mind usually falls on the other side of the equation- :evilgrin:-

Check it out if you don't believe

peace,
blu

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

183. You Say I'm Wrong, I Say You're Wrong. See How Easy That Is?

In my mind she is nothing more than a selfish piece of shit. To each their own.

[Bluerthanblue]

184. in your mind

you could be a super-hero - that wouldn't make it true. ;)

The TRUTH is, she was a human being. She wasn't a peice of excrement.

Envisioning her as something other than human, might make you feel more comfortable in the short run, but in the long run, de-humanizing each other is what enables people to do terrible things.

I understand the outrage you feel at the notion of little children being killed by the very person who should have done everything she could to keep them safe. What I'd like you to consider is that in HER mind, she might have been doing just that- it sounds outrageous, but so does the statement that a human being is a peice of excrement.

It is tragic that no one was able to see what was coming, and to interviene. But we only know the end of the story, and snap judgements are often wrong.

Peace,
blu

[JVS]

106. I wouldn't say "cold-blooded" so much as "heinous"

[raccoon]

113. Hmm, that's how many times now you've said that? "Fuck her." nt

[renie408]

141. Just curious...do you really think that saying 'fucking' repeatedly

lends weight to your opinion? Cause if so...I think the fucking chick was fucking nuts. So fucking nuts she some how got the fucking idea that that killing her fucking kids was actually a good fucking idea. What the fuck? Is that fucking crazy or what? But you know the thing about being fucking crazy? If you are fucking crazy, you don't know what the fuck you are doing. You fucking think you fucking crazy ideas are really fucking sane!

So, did you find that more compelling? Or am I way fucking off base?


You know what? Whathefuckever.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

149. I Think I Can Talk However The Fuck I Want, And You Can Talk However The Fuck You Want.

Fair enough?

[renie408]

151. Sounds fair to me. Maybe not the best way to win an argument...

But then, you aren't trying to win an argument, are you? You are only interested in screeching your bombastic, simple minded opinions as obnoxiously as possible so as to draw as much fire as possible.

Gee, maybe I should give that psychologist thing a shot after all.

[Zavulon]

157. Once again,

I agree with every word.

I don't spend much time in GD, but when I did after the VT killings I don't recall half the sympathy for the killer of 32 people, and all of the words used to defend the mother here can be applied to him except for "female." Even "poor" can be applied to him if you focus in on his rant about the material possessions of others. So, he was poor, desperate, in crisis, and whatever other terms you prefer to use. Why no sympathy for him and so much for this woman?

[janx]

195. While I admire your defense of your unpopular stance in this thread,

you have to realize that her husband was gone. She couldn't call him. He was gone.

[Catherine Vincent]

30. Do we know for sure it was the mother?

Even if it were though, we should take pity on her. You sound so heartless.

[High Plains]

109. What a hideous attitude. You would make a nice angry god.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

116. And She'd Make A Nice Wife Of The Devil.

[Zavulon]

153. Since you're taking a beating here, let me say this:

I agree with absolutely everything you've written in this thread.

[AngryAmish]

72. Umm, isn't saying "utter desperation" judgmental?

[sandnsea]

64. Oh my god

Just oh my fucking god. Intentional ignorance is what is evil.

[ComerPerro]

84. gotta agree with you here.

[JNelson6563]

118. Apparently you aren't acquainted with

Desperation. Lucky you.

Julie

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

145. Such An Empty Excuse. It Condones Nothing.

Desperate my ass. If she was so damn desperate she coulda just offed herself and left her kids elsewhere. Tell me, oh wise one, how the FUCK does desperation fit in to the killing of 4 little innocent children? They were desperate to die? Really? They fuckin were? She was desperate for them to no longer be alive? Tell me, just how the fuck does one get desperate to have their children live anymore? How exactly does that work? Were they in pain from being alive somehow? Their very existence deemed that out of desperation she should ease their suffering? Oh really?

No. Fuck that. This isn't desperation. You could claim desperation if this was a suicide only. There is NO desperation that can possibly explain the brutal hanging of 4 innocent goddamn children. That excuse is pure bullshit. It would've taken her less time to pick up a phone and say "hey, could you watch my kids for a bit?" then it took her to tie the clothes around their necks. This wasn't desperation; it was just plain goddamn selfishness and coldness. FUCK HER.

[JNelson6563]

166. Desperation can lead to insanity.

But there are other paths, as you seem to intent on displaying.

Julie

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

193. Because, as we all know, there's no such thing as "mentally ill."

Give me a fucking break.

[MonkeyFunk]

12. mental illness

seems most likely.

[Bitwit1234]

14. Here is another example

of men controlling women. I know abortion would not have helped the situation. But if this family could not support four children birth control or abortion could have helped. And you see the men are the ones who say no. Why because....look at this....the husband left..no worries, no support. The woman keeps the children and tries to raise them on a salary that wouldn't even support her alone. The man is scott free and he along with all the MEN in the religious community and the republican committee support the ban on abortion.

[Clark2008]

32. What do you bet he left for another woman - one who's body

was without the stretch marks of four pregnancies?

(Sorry - I can't bring myself to read the article. Did it say?)

[johnnie]

88. It just said they were separated

But of course it is the man's fault.

There's no use in finding out the circumstances surrounding this horrible event, it is always an asshole man behind it all.

:eyes:

[raccoon]

115. I'm surprised you posted that.

"it is always an asshole man behind it all."

[Clark2008]

148. Not always, my dear, but I'm betting on it.

I've been through it before. Have you?

[johnnie]

155. No

I've never been left because of stretch marks.

[malaise]

33. Good point n/t

[TahitiNut]

63. That must be true since everyone knows that ....

... this mother couldn't possibly be responsible for her own behavior. :eyes:

[mudesi]

126. You ever hear of postpartum depression?

Look it up.

[TahitiNut]

173. Q.E.D.

:shrug:

[SoCalDem]

96. but there are women who think that having a baby will "solve" their problems

and then another baby and another..and soon she's overwhelmed.

This one sounded overwhelmed regardless of the babies..

a small trailer like that would be small for ONE person..let alone 4 kids..

sad all the way around,

[frankly_fedup2]

15. It's called post-par tum psychosis. It's real, it's dangerous, and

doctors ignore women when they tell them they have thoughts of hurting their children. My doctor told me I was young and I'd get over it . . . well I didn't. I had a psychotic episode but did not kill my child or myself. My psychosis from reality lasted over 7 months and no one knew . . . not even my doctor. I knew there was something wrong with me but had such irrational thoughts; however, I was able to function everyday, go to work, do what I needed to do. Only problem was I saw things that were not there and whispers. I think God I finally went to a psychiatrist, after going to about 10 different doctors), and he immediately hospitalized me for 6 weeks. I have never had another problem but he also told me NEVER to have anymore children and I didn't. My son is now 28 and has given me a beautiful grandson.

[malaise]

20. Thanks for this

So few people take women's medical problems seriously?

You were lucky frankly_fedup2. At least you were able to seek help.

[frankly_fedup2]

27. They say when you think your not crazy, that is when you are and visa versa; however,

I was aware of the symptoms I was having. I didn't know what it was, I just thought I was going crazy. After going through years of medication (of which I still take and I'm 48 now), counseling, and other hospitalizations along the way, I realize how lucky I have been. I thought my son was evil; however, I made sure I was never, EVER left alone with him. I was scared of him. I was so afraid I was going to hurt him, I scared myself, and that is what made me go from doctor to doctor. Finally, I went to a mental health facility and the healing began.

When I stood over a 6-week-old infant's bassinet screaming at him to SHUT-UP, I knew I needed help. I started having thoughts that he was brought here to torment me. That is why the baby constantly got on my nerves. Plus I was so tired, run down physically, and 18 years old. No excuse to do what I did; however, I still regret doing that to this day.

[malaise]

31. At least you knew you needed help

You have no reason for regrets.

[frankly_fedup2]

36. We all have regrets whether we have been sick or not (nt).

[Clark2008]

40. I love my doctor.

After my first child, he told my mother to watch and call him if I had any episodes of this and he'll probably do the same if I exhibit any signs after this one.

He told me, too, of course, but, he had the sense to note that if I did, I may not think clearly enough to call him or anyone else, so he made sure other family members were aware of what post-partum depression is and when to call.

Luckily, I didn't exhibit any signs and probably won't with this one (who feel like she's dropping between my knees at this very moment) either, but it's good to know that he took that precaution just in case.

[T Wolf]

16. Red state madness, plain and simple. No social services, etc. nm

[malaise]

44. partly correct

but are these services available in blue states?

[Malikshah]

17. I immediately thought of Thomas Hardy's "Jude the Obscure" and one of its more

horrific scenes
"Because we were too many"

This is such a tragic occurence

[PassingFair]

39. I was thinking about "Tess" the other day....

I plowed through everything Hardy wrote. I LOVE him.

Just when you think it can't get any worse..........

[Sal Minella]

60. Then you go read "The Darkling Thrush."

[PassingFair]

98. Then there's this:

Towards the end of his life, in the aftermath of World War 1, he would write this epigram:

Christmas: 1924

"Peace upon earth!" was said. We sing it,
And pay a million priests to bring it.
After two thousand years of mass
We've got as far as poison-gas.

:hi:

[Sal Minella]

112. Yes. Ha. Thank you. I just love Hardy, also read through every novel he wrote and later

discovered the poetry. I take that back -- didn't make it through "Jude the Obscure." Couldn't hack it.

[malaise]

133. Thanks for that n/t

[Mz Pip]

58. My first thought

as well. Only in the book the older boy kills his siblings before he hangs himself.

I suspect this woman had serious mental health issues.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Malikshah]

142. True. It was the image of the poor souls in the closet that stuck with me.

There are so many cases, in comparison, of this going on. It begs the question-- why in Texas? Or is it just that the media is reporting these in a higher profile if they occur there?

[Madspirit]

18. Untreated Mental Illness

This society ignores it's mentally ill until they take out a school or kill all their children. I would say that isolation and poverty exacerbated the mental illness, etc. America is a roiling muck and as long as we deny that and until we start putting money into education and social programs, it's only going to get worse...MUCH worse. ...and it was Clinton, not a Repug. who screwed food stamps and AFDC. People don't get it. They really really don't get it and then they are all shocked when a horror happens. I can PROMISE, you are going to see plenty more horrors if we don't change course.

Lee

[China_cat]

21. Why are you assuming murder-suicide

and not 5 murders? (4 murders, one attempted) If there was enough time for the mother to actually die, why is the 8 month old still alive? In the time it would have taken for the mother to hang herself and die, the baby surely would have strangled.

My money is on an irate, abusive husband/father who didn't want to pay child support...and didn't want to let go of his 'possessions'

[frankly_fedup2]

34. Hanging is not a quick death. It is a slow suffocation because rarely

does the neck snap. Most of the time it takes up to 30 minutes before a person is dead from a hanging. It's 30 minutes, if not more, of tortuous suffering. It's a horrible way to die.

[China_cat]

78. Exactly. Which is why the baby still being alive

puts murder/suicide in question. Unless you think that the mother hung herself and then, while strangling, managed to hang the baby.

[AlCzervik]

48. cnn is saying the door was locked from the inside and the neighbors said she had been

depressed.

[China_cat]

73. My door locks from the inside when you pull it closed.

There's also something that doesn't gel with the sister finding them in time to save the baby. Too much stinks for it to be murder/suicide.

Didn't the sister have a key? How did she get in, otherwise? And who else might have had one?

[jesus_of_suburbia]

53. Why would we ever assume a man wasn't guilty?

That of course should ALWAYS be our first thought.

*rolls eyes*

[China_cat]

82. Why shouldn't we at least question, in cases where

there is a separation, and then deaths of spouse and children, that the surviving spouse was involved?

The most dangerous time for a woman and her children is when she decides to get away from an abusive husband.

[ComerPerro]

86. *snarf*

:rofl:

[malaise]

135. Check the stats n/t

[Taverner]

26. Republican Family Values nt

[Matariki]

35. self delete

sorry, reaction to something in the OP not in the article. Don't want to go there....

[valerief]

41. Some women in some religions aren't allowed to control their own

bodies, so they're forced to have children they don't want. And that no one else may want either.

[Sal Minella]

65. Not so much a matter of "wanting" them -- one person can care properly for only so many small people

the physical and emotional and mental demands of very young children are something most men simply have NO notion of. I had three babies in four years. My heart just goes out to this woman, if she was driven to this.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Mental illness.

An imbalance of chemicals.

[w8liftinglady]

54. the same thing happened in this town in 2002-

mom shot dad,three kids,and herself.

[w8liftinglady]

147. article from 2002

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1637/is_200207/ai_n7158912

[slackmaster]

55. Obviously caused by our failure to enact reasonable rope control laws

Also tub control laws and rock control laws.

:argh:

[sandnsea]

68. Failing to change the culture of death

and the notion that killing solves problems. Perpetuated by those who have to have their guns to kill the boogeymen who threaten them.

[malaise]

129. That is a serious problem n/t

[billbuckhead]

69. One of the kids survived probably wouldn't have if she use your favorite tool

Despicable you would use this tragedy to promote guns, but that's your MO.

[JVS]

62. Bad decision-making

[gollygee]

70. It might very well be post-partum psychosis

Which wouldn't excuse it, but it might help explain it. It's tragic in any case.

[Critters2]

75. How sad. How terribly, terribly sad.

I wonder why she didn't call for help. Why she felt so desperate and hopeless. Breaks my heart.

[Jed Dilligan]

120. Call whom, exactly?

Even our most progressive cities have only the barest bones of a mental health and economic safety net.

This is a small town in Texas where... it happened before, not long ago! Sad, desperate place it must be.

[Critters2]

128. Call family, call a doctor, call a clergyperson

I've lived in small towns most of my life, some in the middle of nowhere. I've never had a problem where I didn't know of someone I could call--even being single and living 100s of miles from my family.
If she had dialed 911, someone would have answered.

[Jed Dilligan]

171. I have a feeling that anyone this woman knew

was part of the problem, not a potential solution.

Those of us who can expect actual help when we call on family, friends, or the police are unusually blessed.

[sandnsea]

154. Psychotic people don't know it

I don't think anybody can explain a psychotic snap unless they've experienced one. But I've seen them, and people in them cannot be reasoned with and don't know they're in them.

[baldguy]

80. Hopelessness, desperation, failure

Welcome to Bush's America.

[veniceboy]

95. If She did it, She isn't the Victim

If the mother committed this crime, the blame falls on her. I don't blame Bush or her children. The victims are the children. People live in far greater desperation in countries throughout the world and do not commit crimes like this.

[raccoon]

123. Interesting for your first post.

Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.

[malaise]

137. Even in their poverty most other cultures

still maintain community.

[mudesi]

103. A patriarchal society that convinces women to be baby making machines...

...and then abandons them after the babies are made. That's what causes such cruelty. It's a mixture of religiously condoned misogyny and a neo conservative government that cares not one iota about the economic well being of the vulnerable, in addition to the lack of health care (to detect and prevent and/or treat postpartum depression, for example) and other social services that would keep people such as this woman from falling through the cracks.

[Madspirit]

140. RIGHT ON Lynyrd_skynyrd!!

You nailed it right on the head. I said much the same thing.
Thank-you.
Lee

[mudesi]

165. I started a new thread on this...

Let's hope The Troll doesn't find it for a while....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x995346

[sandnsea]

156. And post-partum psychosis

There may well have been incidences of psychosis in the past, but perhaps the family structure was such that it was caught and treated before tragedy struck.

[Bluerthanblue]

181. that and the belief that death is not the worst of evils- which is

really related to the patriarchal society-

the best way for me to explain this would be to refrence Toni Morrisons "Beloved"-

It speaks to this far better than i ever could.

This world can be very hard and cruel, especially if you are female, and poor- and without good support systems... and have known how bad life can hurt you.

[depakid]

132. "Texas has seen a disturbing number of child killings by mothers in recent years."

Yes, it certainly has....

[renie408]

143. That's what abstinence education will do for a state. n/t

[depakid]

159. along with poor or non-existant social services...

and widespread fundamentalism.

[zippy890]

139. Mental illness

severe depression.

[veniceboy]

168. everything is not society's fault

Mental illness is clearly involved. I just find it strange that the first reaction of some is to blame society.

[Marnieworld]

170. My guess was extreme post partum psychosis coupled with poverty

I think it reveals a horrific suffering.

[StarryNite]

180. So much for the saying that God

doesn't give us more than we can handle.

[kurth]

186. Those kids shouldn't have been born.

Some people do not deserve children.

[lonestarnot]

187. I saw a bumper sticker re "abortion the cruelest form of child abuse."

I thought yeah, cheaper to drown them you bastard.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

190. The woman deserved a lot of help to raise those kids.

Her social circle and society failed her. The government failed her by not raising the minimum wage to a livable level, and failed her by not having subsidized child care and health care. She probably made too much money to get any government assistance. She probably wasn't getting child support and was at the end of her rope, obviously.

And the people on this thread that think that if you just ask someone, you can get help, doesn't know how callous this society is. I've asked people to help me find jobs (NOT a handout, but an actual job) and they didn't give a damn. Alleged Christians too.

[VelmaD]

188. Given that it is more often men...

who kill their children and themselves (and usually a spouse/ex-spouse/girlfriend too)...why doesn't anyone ever ask this question about men?

Oh wait...we do. And then we get called man-haters. :eyes:

I'm really sick of how it gets turned into the end of the fucking world when a woman does something like this...but it's so common for men to do it that it barely even makes the back page of the local section of the newspaper.

[spoony]

189. Society has always lurched along

relying on the small number of good people to get the rest of humanity through its own self-destructive tendencies.

[RB TexLa]

191. damn, I didn't realize that made national news

[Nikki Stone1]

192. How do we know her husband didn't kill them all?

I'd like to see more details on this before I make judgements. The police have judged it to be suicide (and murder of the kids by the mother) but it's an odd way to do it. Not totally convinced that hubby--against whom there was a restraining order--didn't pull this off somehow.

[Rex]

194. Who knows?

Only she did and it looks like she took it to her grave. Sad.