Postpartum Depression

[mudesi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_depression

Granted, this is a wikipedia page, but it is quite accurate and in any case, a simple google will yield more about a subject that is widely misunderstood and dismissed by many.

The much more severe case, called Postpartum psychosis, leads to the horrible stories we hear such as the recent case of the woman who killed herself and her children, as well as the well known Andrea Yates case. (Who was ruled not guilty by reason of insanity).

These cases of women snapping and killing their families are a product of decades of neo conservative "fend for yourself" policy. (The link above mentions how cases such as these have been increasing in Texas, one of the reddest States you can think of).

The lack of a social safety net, such as universal and accessible health care; the religious indoctrination that has lead many women to believe that their only purpose in life is to have children (the same religious fervor that has been successfully exploited by the Republican party); the economic realities of women in such situations, and the government that doesn't care about them; the inherent misogyny that is the undercurrent of all of this; it all plays a part in these horrendous incidents.

To all who know nothing about postpartum depression, psychosis, or mental illness in general, I say this: Google is your friend. The age of the Internet puts a plethora of information at your fingertips. Use it.

[shireen]

1. good advice

and don't listen to that idiot Tom Cruise....

[Madspirit]

2. k&r

Thanks for being compassionate. The torment this woman must have been going through to commit such a desperate act...
Lee

[Manifestor_of_Light]

3. Andrea Yates and her husband were WARNED not to have any more children.

A woman psychiatrist that talked to them warned them that if they had another child, after FOUR, that Andrea would go back into psychosis. Russell, her oblivious husband, knocked her up again, ignoring the advice, and they had number five, the girl. They were following some fundie preacher in Florida. The psychiatrist said in Andrea's chart, "If nature is allowed to take its course, Mrs. Yates will relapse into postpartum psychosis."

As far as I'm concerned, Russell Yates KILLED those children with his dick, by propagating them so closely together, and not using a condom, to give her wife some breathing room between kids, and to not have so many kids, and he ruined his wife's life with his dick. She's psychotic and locked up forever in a mental ward because she couldn't handle all those kids so close together. Nobody could. She had help with the babysitting, but she drowned the kids within an hour, between the time Russell left for work and her mother came over to help with the kids. And she didn't have to worry about supporting herself either, and she snapped completely.

And Russell Yates has since REMARRIED in some Church of Christ in Clear Lake, near NASA Mission Control, where he works. I don't think any woman who doesn't want to be a baby factory/doormat would come within a mile of that guy.

[IdaBriggs]

24. Why blame JUST him? Birth control for women is widely available...

and (in theory) she was a responsible, trustworthy adult who knew what she was doing when she got pregnant. (The psychosis didn't kick in until AFTER the baby was born.)

She was told what the risks were, and made a choice about attending a church that taught what it did. She was not a child who was unable to do what she wanted to do. She was an adult. She did what many of us do -- took a risk, hoped for the best, and rolled the dice. She lost -- and so did her family.

:shrug:

[Horse with no Name]

39. She was hospitalized with postpartum PSYCHOSIS after the 4th

child. That is when they were told that another child could cause harm.
She was mentally ill.
So you think it is okay for a mentally ill person to make a decision to have another child when that decision could have killed her and/or her children?
It wasn't. At that point, it should have been incumbent upon Rusty Yates to have his pecker snipped or wear a condom because Andrea did NOT have the mental capacity to make the decision to have the fifth child.

[IdaBriggs]

54. Was she still ill when she was released? I am under the impression

that her psychosis was a temporary disorder -- are you implying that it is a permanent condition rendering its sufferers mentally ill for the rest of their lives? Such that they are incapable of making medical or legal decisions for themselves FOREVER AFTER??? And might become "dangerous" to both themselves and those around them?

If this is so, and her husband was the legal guardian of a mentally disabled/handicapped person, then I can understand why you blame the husband. If however, she was "mentally healthy" then she was responsible for her own choice to get pregnant (by not using birth control or getting sterilized), and the decision to maintain that ongoing pregnancy.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. Ok Dr. Frist, So You Already Have Been Able To Classify That Heinous Woman As Having Postpartum

psychosis huh? Wow, that's rich! Who woulda thunk that diagnosing such a thing would be so easy!

No excuse for what she did. None. Don't care how ya spin it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Wait a minute, didn't you call her a cold-blooded selfish coward?

Doing a little internet diagnosing yourself, eh, Dr. Laura?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. That's Not A Diagnosis; That's An Opinion Of Her Character.

My opinion of her is exactly that. But there is a big difference between that and claiming she suffers from a rare psychosis. And even then, I still consider it to be no excuse for her pathetic actions. Those poor kids. How dare she.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Well, what's the difference?

Or opinion is that she probably did it because she was suffering from some sort of mental illness, your explanation... well, you never really explained anything.

[Clark2008]

9. Pssst... it's not "rare."

Ten percent of women suffer from it after having a baby. When you translate that into real numbers, it's not "rare" at all.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. Check Your Facts Jack.

[Clark2008]

17. Well, considering I'm currently pregnant, I'm more of a Jill.

And the doctor just told me the stats the other day. I'm about to deliver at any time, so it's, well, something he would have mentioned.

:eyes:

Granted, not everyone who suffers from it kills themselves and/or others, but it's not that rare of a mental illness in the least.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. Jill Didn't Rhyme So You're Out Of Luck.

And I doubt highly that your doc told you that one out of ten women suffer from postpartum psychosis, since it's more like .1%.

Ohhhhhh, you meant postpartum depression? Well tough. That wasn't what I was talking about to begin with.

On edit: With all sincerity while pushing pause on a 'message board' mentality, from my heart, best of luck with your pregnancy and CONGRATS!!!!!! Is it your first? :toast:

[Dorian Gray]

44. Totally offtopic

but this post totally made me laugh. It's the most bi-polar post I've seen on this website. From tough guy poster to nice, sincere guy in one sentence. :) How do you do it, OMC?

[Horse with no Name]

40. Postpartum PSYCHOSIS is very rare

Postpartum Depression, not so much.

[Xmark]

50. I'm in your corner on this.

She may have been suffering mentally very badly, but to take it out on children, especially her own, is off-the-charts horrible. They deserve to be remembered, not her. Every time anyone thinks of how bad she was feeling, think of her children's feelings at being hung by their own mother's hands. That should be the focus.

[Clark2008]

7. Ummm... I don't think they were excusing her.

I think they were trying to point out a very real problem in our society that is often overlooked and ignored and "poo-poohed" by many men (such as yourself).

If she had survived, there is no doubt in my mind that she would have been held accountable for her crime; however, the point of the OP is to look recognize this problem so that it DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN and the women suffering from this very real malady get help so that it DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

Things aren't black and white, you know.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. The Woman Who Just Killed Herself And Her Kids Today Went To Trial Already Posthumously? Wow, That

was quick!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

19. You didn't pay attention to the fact that I was talking about Andrea Yates?

Andrea Yates' past medical history was introduced into evidence and the psychiatrist who told her not to have any more kids, and warned both parents not to have any more, after four, was an expert witness at the trial.

This society can be incredibly cruel; and a macho bastard who proves his virility by making his wife have too many kids close together is guilty of cruelty as well.

[opiate69]

20. You didn't pay attention to the fact that he wasn't replying to you?

[ComerPerro]

23. LMAO, no kidding. WTF is wrong with some people?

[Bunny]

27. Actually, he *was* replying to her.

Follow?

[opiate69]

30. Umm.. wrong..

Post #4 from OMC was a reply to the Original Post. Follow?????

[Bunny]

31. Dear god you're wrong again!

Okay, let's take this slow: You replied to post 19, which was in response to post 14, which was in response to post 13, which has since been deleted but was from perragrande. The little numbers in the top right corner of each post - you see those? That's what you need to follow. 'K?

[opiate69]

32. Dear Dog, it's really not that difficult..

OMC's original post was about Gilberta Estrada.. NOT Andrea Yates.. until Perragrande jumped in and incorrectly tried to correct him by sayng that Andrea Yates had been diagnosed with PPD/PPP. Did you even see post 13 before it was deleted? Do you realize that post 13 was a reply to post 4? If you actually read the conversation, you might just begin to comprehend, M'kay????
:eyes:

[Bunny]

33. I read the entire thing this morning, and cannot for the life of me imagine what your problem is.

You obviously didn't follow the thread posts, and snidely tried to chastise perragrande, however, you were wrong. Admit it, deal with it, don't take your lack of focus out on me.

And furthermore, this is a discussion forum. Perragrande was adding Andrea Yates, one of the most famous cases of post partum psychosis, to the discussion, which, incidentally, is about post partum depression and psychosis. Are you saying that she is not permitted to do this?

Oh, and here's an :eyes: right back at ya! Have a lovely day!

[opiate69]

35. One more time for the back of the class...

Lynyrd Skynyrd- "Post Partum depression leads to people/incidents like Gilberta Estrada"

OMC (to Lynyrd)- "So, you've diagnosed Estrada with PPD?"

Perragrande (to OMC) - "What the hell do you mean? Andrea Yates WAS diagnosed with PPD/PPP"

OMC (To Perragrande)- "Huh?"

Perragrande (To OMC) - "I was talking about Andrea Yates, dumbass"

Me (To Perragrande)- "That's nice and all, but the post you originally replied to wasn't about Andrea Yates.. "

But I'm the one who lacks focus.. all-righty-then..

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Good Summary LOL

Only one quick correction though: My reply was critiquing the diagnosis of Post partum psychosis disorder, which is far more rare and generally occurs within 2 weeks of giving birth. My comments were geared towards that aspect exclusively.

As far as the rest goes, you are absolutely correct. I love the "I was talking about Andread Yates dumass" summary. I laughed when I first saw the original reply. Who the hell was talking about Andrea Yates? LOL

Too funny.

[gollygee]

11. It's hard

I had PPD. Not as bad as that, but I talked about placing my daughter for adoption because I felt like the worst mother in history. And I fantasized about taking the car out and crashing it (alone, not with my daughter). That was bad enough.

And I had just the one child, money, good health insurance, a stable marriage with a good husband, and a house big enough for everyone. I can't even imagine going through that with three additional kids in a mobile home and then getting separated from my husband.

I really think mothers ought to have more doctor visits after babies are born and should be better assessed for this. But of course that costs money.

I love my daughter more than anything in the world and I am extraordinarily glad I have her. But honestly, the first year after she was born was the worst year of my life. It certainly wasn't her fault, and I knew that at the time. But it was really and truly horrible to go through. Thank goodness for my husband. He is truly wonderful and was there the whole time helping me and making sure I had whatever help I needed but he couldn't provide.

[Connonym]

43. I admire your courage in admitting that.

I'm so glad that you had the support you needed to help you. I mourn for everyone in this situation. :hug:

[Dorian Gray]

45. Me too, connonym...

The depression is, definitely, a very common thing, and I've had friends who suffered with it and felt like they had to hide it. There are societal expectations for mommies to be happy and thrilled after the birth of their child, and many times we just feel lost and confused and afraid.

The psychosis is a little more frigthening, and stories like these scare me when I think about having a child.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Madspirit]

16. I know you were hoping

He wouldn't follow. I am sorry he did.
Lee

[fortyfeetunder]

21. Absofrigginlutely

Nuff said, to many women this is very real, and I daresay probably for some men too. I hope OMC will agree to disagree.

[treestar]

51. Some people just do not want to "believe in" mental illness

It has to be about "character" - for them it is too confusing to handle that concept of mental illness, because that makes their judgments of character too complex and hard to handle. Usually these people are right wing, but not always.

[ComerPerro]

22. it is no excuse for murder

[Chulanowa]

25. Who said it was?

However there's a difference between people who kill to kill, and people who kill because of a mental illness. Both need to be responded to - the first by incarceration, the second with treatment.

[ComerPerro]

26. well, basically, the OP

[gollygee]

34. It isn't an excuse, but it might be an explanation

It doesn't excuse the person who did it, but if it helps to explain it, then maybe we can do something about it and prevent these things from happening in the future.

Looking for explanations doesn't mean excusing.

[mudesi]

38. Too simplistic

Wouldn't it be nice to live in a world where things can be boiled down to such simple platitudes?

Technically, it is an excuse. But once again, we have people who are unwilling to do a simple Google search on a subject they know nothing about. What does it take, really? Why do people continually have opinions based on nothing, instead of based on fact?

Here is one I found halfway down the very first search page:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-post-partum-psychosis.htm

Postpartum psychosis is a rare but serious mental stress disorder triggered within a few months after childbirth. A mother suffering from postpartum psychosis may experience hallucinations, irrational thoughts, sleep deprivation or eating disorders. She may even consider killing herself or her newborn child.

There is more out there. Read. Learn. Maybe even read a couple of the posts in this very thread who experienced it.

[ComerPerro]

53. Yates... not responsible for her actions at all? Just a victim?

I can tell you for certain that those in this thread who experienced it sure as fuck didn't methodically murder their children one by one.

[Lars39]

55. Yates had post-partum psychosis.

[zippy890]

28. I had severe postpartum depression

20 years ago after the birth of my one and only child.

I do not talk about it much because it was such a horrible time in my life.

If it was not for my wonderful supportive husband, I do not think I and my son would be alive today.

Whenever I hear about a mother who kills her children my heart cries out for all the victims, including the mother.

I was lucky, I had someone who cared and who knew I was sick and who loved me.
Some are not so fortunate. Victims of a horrible horrible illness you can't even begin to understand how horrible unless you have experienced it.

you can't even imagine how horrible.

I can.

[Connonym]

42. It's brave of you to admit that here

:hug: This is why it's important to talk about it. Because women need to know that they're not alone and that other people have gone through it. I'm sorry that you had to experience it, it must have been scary for you.

[zippy890]

46. Its very hard to talk about

its hard to think about that time when I became someone else, the illness was so severe. I survived because somone (my husband) cared, and came to understand that I was still there, that it was illness beyond my control that changed me so horribly. He saw to that I got help, he saved my life.

I made it through because of love.

Thank you for you kindness.
:hug:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

49. I empathize with you entirely. It happened to me 20 years ago with my first

son. At that time, the doctors were feeding the bullshit line of "baby blues" and there were no postpartum support groups. I was not taken seriously. I had awful thoughts about throwing my son (who had severe colic) out of the window or placing him in boiling water, but I knew those were fantasies and thank goodness never acted upon those thoughts. I had panic attacks and thought I was dying. My ex-husband was of little help. He had to work and there was no one to help me. I was 35 with a baby and was at wits ends. Luckily, little by little things got better. This lasted for about 3 months.

When I became pregnant again, and delivered 3 1/2 years later, I was perfectly fine.

Hugs to you for what you went through.

[Nikki Stone1]

29. IF you're talking about the death by hanging of a mother and her children, I say cherecher l'homme

In other words, where's hubby against whom a retraining order was filed? The whole case smells fishy to me, and I don't know how they came up with a verdict of suicide.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

36. I don't have to google it. I lived it with my first child. :( eom

[slackmaster]

41. Do you blame the NeoCons for your unfortunate problem?

Or could you say it was something that wasn't anybody's fault, that you had no control over?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

47. lol! Necons? Placing a tinfoil hat on...maybe the neocons had control of my

hormones, causing an imbalance! Yes! That must be it!!!!!


:rofl:

[slackmaster]

48. Thanks, and I'm glad you got better

Sometimes peoples' attempts to politicize every problem get a little over the top on these forums. That's part of the fun of reading them.

[Fleshdancer]

52. I don't think it can be linked to neo conservative policy....

Postpartum psychosis is SO severe that I'm far more inclined to believe it's chemical and not situational.

As for PPD which is more common than most people expect, I think isolation does play a part in it but again, it wouldn't attach it to political policy. Families are moving more than they ever did in the past. Many families no longer live in the same community with their parents, siblings, cousins, etc. People who move to Texas must have a difficult time...it's big down here and it's very easy to feel alone when you don't have a core social group established yet.

Now about the "fend for yourself" attitude, it does exist here but that's just one small part of our culture (which has existed long before neocon policies). However, that attitude has nothing to do with how we interact as a community and has to do more with that odd Texan libertarian streak. I'm not going to defend it because I don't agree with it, but I wanted to clarify for those who have never been here. Overall though, Texans are some of the nicest people you will ever meet and the majority of us will do what we can to help someone who is suffering. The problem is that asking for help is extremely hard to do when you're depressed.

While I'll usually be one of the first people to criticize organized religion, I would expect belonging to a church would actually help instead of hurt when it comes to PPD. Being a part of any community would help. Obviously I don't have an answer to the Yates case and I'm not familiar with all the details but I knew they were religiously strict...did they belong to a larger community? I have no idea.

The rest of it comes down to your individual situation. Hormones, lack of sleep, the level of support you receive, and other things happening in your life at the time all play a part in it. My PPD had to have been situational. Between the time my daughter was 3 and 6 months old, my husband and I made an international move from Japan to MN, I went back to college and then my father passed away...add hormones and lack of sleep to the picture and it's no surprise I had fantasies about running away or hurting my child. Thankfully I didn't but looking back I wish I would have asked for professional help.