I'm more convinced than ever that Biden was really our only hope -- or our

[gateley]

best hope at least.

I just read an article about Obama's rhetoric (I'm not saying that in a pejorative way -- honest - this author is obviously pro Clinton, though). It gives an example of what - in my opinion - we should be hearing from both Obama and Clinton:

"Spending for retirees—mainly Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid—is already nearly half the federal budget. Unless we curb these rising costs, we will crush our children with higher taxes. Reflecting longer life expectancies, we should gradually raise the eligibility ages for these programs and trim benefits for wealthier retirees. Both Democrats and Republicans are to blame for inaction. Waiting longer will only worsen the problem."

Who is the ONLY candidate we have heard lay it on the line like that?

Damn it!

Neither of them can bring what Biden could.

[Muttocracy]

1. you know what all this rhetoric/plagiarism stuff is making me think...

In hindsight I wish Biden had just made it really clear what happened 20 years ago, that he made mistakes and dropped out, learned from it, and did his homework for 20 more years. Just cleared out all those damn myths out there, all those Biden=plagiarist stuff. Hell, should have done an interview on TV with Dowd or something to grab attention.

America loves a redemption story and given the world of scandals out there for him to have 30 years and the big things are a bad speech (I don't get the whole Kinnock thing in the first place) mishandled, and sloppy work in college, is pretty small in the big scheme. How many everyday folks could have related to, I did some dumb stuff in my 20s. And I was arrogant at 40 in ways that I'm not at 60. Would have elevated him, and given him credibility in the experience department. I think back to how he said Obama was like he was in his last run (bright, young, energetic, inspiring young people, but not experienced enough)

Not clearly thought out, just musing.... And sad about it all...

[gateley]

29. Yes, the older I get the more I realize how little I know. I also have learned that

my beliefs change - so what I know FOR A FACT today, may not be that tomorrow, at all.

[Tashca]

2. We knew that when we supported him.

He is out and not coming back.
I realize I have only recently excepted that conclusion. I fear for this country like I never have before.....then to have our best chance just dispatched like yesterdays news....
I think this is why I have decided to jump in and post again....exceptance, but still a growing fear.

I don't know the author of the piece you posted above. I read a book a couple of years ago by Pete Peterson.....I don't remember the title. It addressed the issue in this piece in very explicit detail. He excoriated the Republicans and Democrats....I mean tore them up for not addressing this potentially debilitating problem facing the future of this country...He showed how this is just sort of pushed from Congress to Congress....from President to President....no one really tackling the issue. He explained how it was political suicide. When one side brings it up the other tears them down for it. Both sides doing the same thing. This was written about the time Bush came out with his proposals for Social Security.....I don't remember exactly how the author worded it....but I think the word idiot was used..

I don't see that changing with the people we have selected, as a country, to lead this nation. I think your absolutely right. Joe would have tackled this threat head on.....both guns blazing!!

[gateley]

3. The post was from an article (pro-Clinton) in Newsweek. (I linked to it

from msnbc.com) -- but it holds for both the candidates. Neither of them are cutting to the chase. I know that's kind of par for the course in an election run, but that didn't stop Joe!

[Tashca]

4. It does hold for both..

But again it is political suicide at this point in the game.

and you are right.....Joe would have tackled it. No....he would have led it.

I guess we are both singing to the choir!!.....

:D

[Steely_Dan]

5. I Am Very Concerned...

about our future.

Obama is not a bad man. He is neither a hack or insincere. Having said that, I am not convinced that his words match is action. I feel that he has captured the perfect wave of discontent. Only the person talking about "change" is going to attract those that while are not dumb, they are not as well-read and politically aware as the average DUer.

I "hope" that he can follow through with his promises. I pray that his mouth is not cashing checks that his actions can't cover.

-Paige

[WheelWalker]

6. I share your concern, Steely. He's right, in a sense. Hope begins

with him. Here's hoping he can deliver.

[gateley]

7. I think that whoever wins the election will run screaming out of the Oval Office

about a week after taking the oath hollering "was I fucking NUTS???"

I think, to no one's surprise, that Joe was more realistic and understood far better the realities that the next Prez will be faced with.

It would irritate me when Hillary would say "well we don't know now...." and people jumped on her for it -- she was RIGHT!

My hope is that Obama gathers those with experience and knowledge around him and LISTENS to what they have to say.

Ain't nobody gonna do it like Joe could have, though.

[Tashca]

8. Your hope is my hope

I hope you are right about gathering the experience around him.....and listening.

I honestly do not get the appeal to Barak. I will certainly support him if he gets the nomination.

I also hope many people don't end up with buyers remorse. I don't dislike him. I am just having a problem trusting him. I don't feel I really have much to go on except plain old faith. At this point I need more than that.....

[mjg540]

9. I JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE...

I just got off the phone with the Mom of a soldier that was killed in Iraq. She's struggling and so overwhelmed with sadness, it's heartbreaking. I turned on the debates and I finally realized what was missing from this campaign and it's Joe's heart and soul. He would have grabbed this Mom and held her tight because he understands. I miss that and the country has really lost. As I said in one of my introductions to Senator Biden that if we don't send him to the White House, it will be one of the democrats greatest "Missed Opportunities" (borrowing the words of the Great Senator Biden)....So keep this Mom and all families of the fallen in your prayers.

On another note, did you see the news that the helicopter carrying Biden, Kerry and Hagel had to make an emergency landing today....
They are fine.

[gateley]

12. Yes - Joe's heart and soul. THAT'S what's missing.

I will keep Mom and her family in my thoughts. It is just so sad.

There's a thread here on the helicopter in Afghanistan. We can't forget those are pretty scary locales they're visiting.

[WheelWalker]

10. It's at least partially a question of trust for me, too. What's most curious, and not just

a little disturbing to me, is that so many people for whom I've long held great respect and trust, appear to be rushing like drunk lemmings to his camp. Even Joan Baez, for god's sake. Is Dylan in this crush to the White House, too? Neil Young? Please, don't get me started. And yet, I can't find my way to belief, trust OR faith. This is the first time in my life that I find myself on opposite sides of the barricades as to many, many people. And still, I can't bring myself to accept that I'M the one who's popped his cork and tipped over. Very curious....and MOST disturbing, if for no other reason that he divides those whom I accepted were indivisible. I'm in a very uncomfortable surrounding right now. Who are all these people, and what have they done with my comrades?

[gateley]

11. I'm waiting to hear from Buffy Sainte Marie...

:7

[WheelWalker]

14. Good one! I'll tell you, when I read that Joan endorsed BO....we'll, I DID

have to take another look on that recommendation. I did note, however, that it was AFTER Joe withdrew. For most jumping on the Obamobile now, it's just an "either/or" eventuality. I don't know about you, but I'm still in denial. Will either of us be able to vote for anyone but Joe come May?

And Gate, your smilies sometimes just crack me up!~

[mjg540]

13. Division is what's happening

I don't think it's cynicism that holding you back. I can't find myself supporting Obama either. What I see and hear from the campaign is that we all have miserable little lives and only they "The Obama's" can lift us out of despair. I find his tone arrogant because he has given no credit to those that have been in Washington working their tails off, like coming together is a novel idea. Does he or anyone else really believe the day he walks into the WH that they all will get along, I think the Republicans will have something to say to that. He sends the message that he is ready to compromise when there are some issues that you just have to stand firm on because it's the right thing to do. At this point I can't find myself ready to put him Commander and Chief of our military in a world that is in such upheaval. I just don't think he gets it. I do think he consulted Biden's web site for some of his talking points...early on he thought Iran was the most dangerous country in the world....but of course Joe is Right.

[WheelWalker]

15. You make a couple of excellent observations. He offers "hope" to the

hopeless. Our pathetic little lives, indeed. I had not seen it, but it makes perfect sense. It's Hitlerian. It's Orwellian. It's Elmer Gantrian. It's fraud. I just FEEL it in my bones. It is Obaminominous in the extreme.

Can it really be that only Joe, among all our senior leadership, recognizes that the most dangerous, truly dangerous, country in the world is US?

[jillan]

16. Biting my tongue ~ or my fin ~ out of respect to the Obama supporters among us.

[mjg540]

17. Ok maybe the comment was a bit harsh

but I have watched the Obama's in action, and I just think they are disingenuous with the American people. Michelle passes herself off as the poor little black girl from Chicago and that her uneducated parents sent her and her brother to Princeton and from what I've read that is far from the truth. She was neither poor nor did her parents pay for her college. She's called the closer because comments like that make people feel connected to her, she's a smart lady and deserves accolades for what she has accomplished, which causes me to wonder about her choice of words. Only an observation.
We all see things differently. I had a die hard republican in my office not long ago and he wouldn't even consider Biden because he wore cuff links to campaign with...he thought that made Joe arrogant. I see welfare as a stepping stone to help someone who has fallen on hard times...he sees a freeloader. I see Health care reform essential, he sees another gov't giveaway.
So you see it's all about perspective. Most likely when all is said and done, the real truth will lie somewhere in the middle.

[Steely_Dan]

18. I Completely...

agree with your post....well said.

-P

[jillan]

20. I totally agree, and will talk about it out there, but out of respect to the Bidenites

that are now supporting Obama, I won't do it in here.

[CrispyQ]

21. When the treasury is spent on We the People, it's a government give away, "entitlements."

When it's spent on corporations, it's free enterprise. :eyes:

[gateley]

19. You're so cute - but we'd understand, really! nt

[WheelWalker]

22. Understood. Subtlty has never been my forte. Just talking about my feelings.

One of the elements of fraud is "reasonable reliance." I'm not saying there is any blame in believing him. As a candidate for POTUS, one is reasonably entitled to rely on the candidate's statement. If he knows he is untruthful, and knows that we are not aware of the untruth, but intends that we rely on the truthfulness of his statements....that is fraud. No intention to offend, rather to enlighten.

[WheelWalker]

23. Re-reading your post, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say.

I didn't realize, I guess, that there are "Obama supporters" among us. I recognize there are Obama voters among "us" now that Joe is out of the race. Are you saying you agree with me, Pirhana, but don't want to offend others by verbalizing your agreement? Either my post, or your response, has resulted in a number of replies that I can't really make sense of without understanding what you are trying to say. Whatever our respective intentions, Pirhana, know that I love you like a Salmon.

[CrispyQ]

26. I say equally bad things about both of them.

}(

[CrispyQ]

24. Biden was not just our only hope,

but our best, LAST hope. Neither Clinton nor Obama have what it takes to deal with the colossal mess this country is in. There is absolutely no appeal to me for either of these candidates. I don't think either one will make effective changes. If by some chance the dems do win in November, I see a one term presidency with the repubs campaigning in '12 on the claim that the dems couldn't do anything.

And you know what else pisses me off? The DU spell checker knows the name "Obama" but not the name "Biden." Even "Kucinich" is recognized. Stupid, petty gripe, I know. :crazy:

[jillan]

25. I know.

I have been actively supporting Hillary, but just re-watching Biden in a debate from November makes me realize what we lost....

and how much Hil-bama sux!

The fights about Nafta - well both Hillary and Barack voted to expand it - Biden voted no.
Iran - Biden voted NO.
Biden was and is right.... and we are stuck with these two.

I feel screwed over :(

I want hope and history to rhyme again.

[PatSeg]

27. I noticed that too about the spell check

and it really is annoying, almost like a slap in the face.

[gateley]

30. I'm not sold on either of them by any means, so anything anybody posts

negatively about either of them here is fine with me, as long as it's a fair criticism and an objective observation. This is a safe zone, in my mind.

And I agree that I'm not sure we'll see real change from either of them come January 2009. And in all fairness it'll take a LOT of work to begin implementing change, I feel Joe would have kept us apprised of the progress, whereas with these two I fear we'll only hear more promises...

Bottom line, people - and we all agree: Joe's The One. And only.

[livvy]

28. We're in a heap, no matter who wins.

I don't have a lot of faith in either Dem. candidate. I don't think either one can do what needs to be done, but either would be an improvement over the lying weasel that's squatting in our White House now, or the lying weasel's soul mate that's trying to get the GOP nom.

I. want. Biden. back. and. that. is. that. hrmpfff

By the way, GD-P is exceedingly vicious today, with Clinton's statement about Obama's mailing. I recommend you avoid it at all costs. I'd like to just go in there and respond to every post with WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING ALL THESE DAMN ARGUMENTS IF PEOPLE HAD THE BRAINS ENOUGH TO SUPPORT BIDEN IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!


Hmmm...seem to be feeling grumpy. I think I'll go make some chili. Maybe the beast in me needs to be fed. LOL

[gateley]

31. Your Biden statement -- don't tempt me! I bet we'd get a lot of support! nt

I actually had some sincere questions about the mailings and Hillary's statement today. I asked people to help clarify it for me OBJECTIVELY if they could, and they did. Of course, I only got 4 responses. :7