Cuba has some of the lowest crime rates in the world.

[Mika]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=crime+rate+by+country&aq=0&aqi=g6g-m4&aql=&oq=crime+rate+by+cou

Also this,

Crime Statistics > Prisoners > Per capita (most recent) by country
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita

---

[Billy Burnett]

1. Further proof that Chavez is not like Castro.

:rofl:

[protocol rv]

2. That's right

Seems Castro is smarter in a sense. However, Castro has managed to run the Cuban economy into the ground, and Chavez is still working to run the Venezuelan economy into the ground.

[Jkid]

3. You have the stats.

Now explain why Cuba some of the lowest crime rates in the world.

[Mika]

4. Because Castro is no Chavez.

:rofl:

[Wilms]

5. That's because most of the Cuban criminals are in Florida's Republican party. n/t

[naaman fletcher]

6. Because it is a police state. Pretty straightforward really. nt.

[Mika]

7. Not logical. A police state incarcerates high numbers per capita.

Guess who's #1 ....

Crime Statistics > Prisoners > Per capita (most recent) by country
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita

- -

Cuba is at the bottom of the list (among the least in per capita incarcerations).

Another failing of the regime .... Cuba does a lousy job at being a "police state".

---

[Judi Lynn]

8. It's also tremendously strange to call it a police state when the street cops aren't even armed.

I've heard this comment repeatedly from Cuba visitors.

NO GUNS.

Oh, well. What can you expect?

[Mika]

9. Few prisoners, cops with no guns and still the lowest crime stats.

Sounds like there's just too much of everyone just gettin' along in Cuba.

With such a social construct there's little money to be made (money = a RW hallmark of Freedom™) from high crime rates (like burglar alarm biz, security windows and bars biz, prison construction biz, privatization of prisons and guards biz) - no wonder Cuba is a pariah to corporate a government, like America's. Not enough Freedom™.

---

[Wilms]

10. Reminds me what I was told by a school principal that visited there.

She said she didn't want to come home.

[protocol rv]

15. Where are you from anyway?

Haiti? :-)

[protocol rv]

11. Cuba is a police state

They've repressed the peoople for so long, the people fear them. And this refers to political opposition, not to common crime.

[Mika]

12. Laughable.

Some police state Cuba is - a police state that represses the citizenry who elects them by building(w/jobs programs)social infrastructure - health care, education, sustainability, peace, security {social and otherwise}, sovereignty over their own destiny - by and for the repressed citizenry.

Chaulk up yet another failure of the brutal Cuban regime .... not good at being a brutal police state.


:dunce:

---

[protocol rv]

16. Allow Cubans to use the internet freely and allow a free press

So tell me, how come you have internet from Cuba, unless you happen to be a government agent? :-)

[Billy Burnett]

17. In Cuba everyone is a government agent.

Some are agents of the American government, the rest - Cuban.

Oh... I forgot.. Castro eats babies too.

[bemildred]

18. Castro kills warm puppies!!111 nt

[DutchLiberal]

26. Ask the recent political prisoners who went on hunger strike whether it's a police state...

Oh wait, you can't... they died.

[Judi Lynn]

13. Yeah, the people fear the government so much they turn around and go back to visit Cuba

first chance they get, have for years, except for the time _{George W. Bush} stole the Presidency and restricted Cuban "exile" travel to Cuba.

[protocol rv]

14. They do fear the government

Do you think the Cubans going back dare say anything? They keep their heads down, their mouths shut, visit their relatives, hand them over the clothes, medicines, and gadgets they bring, and return to their homes. And Cuba remains one of the most oppressive, dictatorial, repressive, and orwellian regimes on this planet.

[Mika]

19. Uninformed/pure BS.

Your Cuba posts are worth less than the flies buzzing around an outhouse.

Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo threatened by US for living in Cuba
http://havanajournal.com/politics/entry/eloy_gutierrez_menoyo_threatened_by_us_for_living_in_cuba/

A U.S. resident who had spent 22 years in a Cuban prison for opposing communism and returned to the island to work for democracy now faces a U.S. jail threat for violating travel restrictions.

Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo, a Cuban exile who returned in 2003, has been warned by the U.S. Treasury Department that he could be fined $250,000 or sent to prison for 10 years for staying in Cuba in violation of sanctions intended to isolate the government of Fidel Castro.

“They don’t understand: I am not a tourist in Cuba, I am an activist working to establish a legal space for an independent opposition,” Gutierrez Menoyo said on Tuesday in an interview.

“It is illogical. I’m here seeking freedom and the United States comes and tells me I face a 10-year prison sentence,” he complained.

Cuba is NOTHING like the rightwing hacks here depict.

---

[Billy Burnett]

20. "Cuba is NOTHING like the rightwing hacks here depict."

Same goes for the USA.


:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

21. I was stunned when I heard Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo moved his operation to Cuba!

He was a real fixture in Miami, wasn't he? Very well known. A member of one of those Cuban "exile" brigades of some kind, too: mercenaries.

It was astonishing when he started getting poisonous threats from the _Bush administration, as they tried to scare him into returning to the U.S. Damn!

Thanks for the reminder!

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/menoyo-7-03.jpg

[protocol rv]

22. In Cuba there's no freedom of speech

I'd like to see a newspaper published in Cuba who tells young Cubans about the truth, and is free to criticize the government, and propose a national referendum to change the constitution, including an article which forbids any person to serve in a leadership position longer than 10 years, and articles which allow people to organize and form political parties other than the communist party, and form unions free of government control, and to provide for the complete separation of any party finances from the state, as well as provide for freedom to travel, to move anywhere one wants to move, and to have the ability to stand on a corner and say enough is enough, and it's time to change after 50 years of the same garbage over and over, and forbid state agents from tapping phones, and create a justice system which punishes those who asault and beat up individuals who protest against the government, and other good ideas I'm sure the Cuban people will support. :-)

[Mika]

23. So, when are you going to Cuba to see these things for yourself?

When you get there, hopefully during elections season, try to shut your mewling pie hole and look and listen. You have near zero to contribute to the discourse there - except bullshit.


FYI, when I was a much younger person I used to think Cuba was this dark and dangerous place you RWers depict in your bullshit fantastical commentary - until I went there. Boy! Have I learned a lot since then. Nothing beats personal experience.


Viva Cuba!

---

[DutchLiberal]

27. Cuba is depicted that way in far-left European media also...

That's because those are the facts.

I'm fully supporting all the *democratic* leftist goverments in Latin-America, but I will never support a communist dictatorship.

Edited for typo's.

[Mika]

29. Again. Links?

Huh? Far-left Libertarian? :rofl: I'd like to read some of the far-left media that refers to Cuba as a commie dictatorship.

---

[DutchLiberal]

30. Just watch their tv news broadcasts or read their papers.

Putting your head in the sands isn't an effective strategy.

Cuba has only one party. They rule for over 40 years. There are no democratic elections. Papers cannot write what they want. Demonstrations against the regime are not allowed. Political opponents are put in prison. Now what do you call that? I call that a dictatorship, just like call China and North-Korea dictatorships.

Leftists Latin-American politicians should do well to stay away from Cuba.

[Mika]

31. Link?

C'mon. You said that the liberal far-left media refer to Cuba as a commie dictatorship, so produce some backup to your claim.

Otherwise...... well.... :dunce:

---

[DutchLiberal]

32. Yeah, I'm gonna spend hours to prove the earth is not flat...

(Only for you to claim the outlet is right-wing anyway.)

*yawn*

Oh, and please see the edited message.

[Mika]

34. It would take hours to find some far-left links?

You are just too much. :rofl:

---

[DutchLiberal]

36. You just go ahead praising dictatorships. Make the real liberals and progressives look bad!

That's your true mission, isn't it?

[Mika]

39. Nice to see your well-sourced contributions.

:rofl:

[DutchLiberal]

41. Try Amnesty International, or Human Rights Watch...

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba

http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba

I shouldn't HAVE to give links. It's just a tactic you use to keep me busy, or to exhaust me. It's all so transparent. We KNOW this is happening in Cuba. You can't pretend it isn't, just because somebody you're having a discussion with isn't playing along with your games.

[Mika]

44. Right. More bought and paid for propaganda.

I just love it when uninformed RW "Democrats" show up here and make sweeping pronouncements about dark and dangerous Cuba and then produce the ever-reliable AI & HRW 3rd hand hearsay "reports" that are nothing more than self perpetuating fabrications.

AI and HRW have none of their own people in Cuba. None. They reprint "reports" supplied by Miami based Cubanet, who is funded by the International Republican Institute and other RW foundations such as Mellon Scaife and the Diaz Balart family foundations. Cubanet pays "dissidents" and so called "independent journalists" to "report" on the atrocities of the socialist system in Cuba. These RW "reports" on Cuba are part of the foundation of the "argument" for maintaining sanctions on Cuba, the maintaining of the US's Cuban Adjustment Act, and other US gov funded anti Cuba regulations.

Cuba, despite US extra territorial sanctions & poverty, has world class social infrastructures and rates among the top nations in many social indices.

Socialism, done efficiently, and popular!..... scary stuff for RWers.

---

[DutchLiberal]

47. Oh puh-leeze, not the "right-wing" strawman again...

Look up my posting history before you make wild accusations. There's no bigger supporter of Latin-America's leftwing presidents than me. Look it up. But I only support *democratically elected* leftwing leaders, like presidents Chavez, Correa, Lugo etc. Not brutal dictators like the Castros.

Yeah, Amnesty is "bought and paid for"... :rofl:

The amount of cognitive dissonance going on is astonishing! It's like watching freepers deny any of the Bush crimes: "it didn't happen, it's just a leftwing lie" etc.

[Mika]

53. Don't misquote me.

I didn't say A.I. was bought and paid for.

To make it clear for the comprehension impaired .... I said that A.I. uses reports on Cuba created by a RW funded anti Castro media group - Cubanet.

Miami based Cubanet is funded (and operated by) by various RW entities that have an ax to grind against Cuba's socialist system.

Unlike many other countries that they report on, A.I. has none of their own people doing their own observations in Cuba.

I don't discredit A.I.'s reporting wholly. Just their Cuba reports.

---

[naaman fletcher]

58. There is a reason AI and HRW don't have people in cuba.

They are not allowed to operate there by the dictatorship. sheesh.

[DutchLiberal]

25. Cuba is a police state. Please don't defend them. It makes you look stupid.

I'm not saying you *are*. It just makes you look that way.

The fact that Cuba has a socialist leader and has been resisting American imperialism for over 40 years doesn't make it any less of a dictatorship. Real liberals and progressives should stay far away from it.

[DutchLiberal]

24. Cuba also has some of the highest numbers of political prisoners...

[Mika]

28. Link?

Maybe you missed my link,
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita

Maybe you can cough up a credible link (non anti Cuba source please), that's generally what posters with info to share do. Otherwise accusatory posts without sourced links are usually considered blather.

Thanks.

[DutchLiberal]

33. I said " political prisoners" . Like the two who died of hunger strikes lately?

Oh, didn't you hear about them on your dictatorship-praising pro-Cuban websites?

[Wilms]

35. Link?

Just askin' :shrug:

[DutchLiberal]

37. Jailed Cuban dissident dies after prolonged hunger strike

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/02/23/cuba.dissident/index.html

[Wilms]

38. That is sad. It's a curious story too.

"According to Pollan, Zapata, 42, went on strike to demand a separate cell from common criminals and permission for his family to bring him food. She said he also refused to wear the prison uniform."

Those three demands sent him on a hunger strike. Stunning.

[protocol rv]

40. Did you read "One day in the life of Ivan Denisovitch"?

I understand the Cuban gulag is modeled after the Stalinist Gulag. if you read One Day in the Life, you may understand. I've visited the prison camps in the former Soviet Unions, and talked to prisoners and the children of prisoners who managed to survive and were freed in the 1980's and 90's. They use a very well designed method to break the prisoner's mind down. Orwell's "1984" also gives you a flavor of what it's like.

I am sure you are a very honest person, who is just missing a little information. You should strive to read as much as possible about this subject, because human rights abuses are no funny matter, and they are being carried out by extremists of all types. When I think of it, it's also done by some of the most "civilized" nations. For example, I suggest you also watch the film "In the Name of the Father" about abuses in the United Kingdom against the Irish, or the latest film "Invictus" about Nelson Mandela's rise to the presidency in South Africa. And of course, I assume you are aware of the terrible abuses carried out by the invasion forces in Iraq. These are documented in many different books.

But what can you expect from a hairless monkey whose main attribute is to have survived thousands of years of warfare? We are the survivors of a twisted darwinian process which turns us into worse than animals towards other human beings. And it is our ability to be inhuman which allows us to survive, I suppose. I don't think I have much of a chance, I can't bring myself to be that way.

[DutchLiberal]

43. They're not missing information; they're deliberately blocking it out...

Just like the Bush-supporters deliberately blocked out any information about his many crimes. It's called 'cognitive dissonance'.

[protocol rv]

50. My Dutch Friend

You are admirable. I haven't heard this term, cognitive dissonance, but I do understand our very human tendency to filter information. And it is very good to meet somebody who does understand our human weakness in this area.

In the case of the US presidents, it is indeed extreme the way the American public protects their reputation. I like to approach right wing Americans with a simple proposition: President Clinton was a war criminal. This defuses their animosity towards my ideas. Then, after we agree it is very likely President Clinton was indeed a war criminal (due to the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999), then I bring up the idea that President Bush II was also a war criminal. But most of the time they react as if I were the devil, and I can't get much across.

[Wilms]

45. How many of the "common criminals" commit suicide? n/t

[DutchLiberal]

42. Suuuuuure, and you believe everything the Cuban minister of 'information' tells you, right?

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell to you...

It's disgusting to see so-called democrats (with or without the capital D) reducing real, genuine fighters for democracy in Cuba to ordinary thieves and criminals. It's sickening. It shows no respect at all for human rights, or for democracy in general. I am appalled at all the cognitive dissonance that's going on to justify a dictatorial regime. It's the same kind of cognitive dissonance that was used by the far left in the 1970's to justify Mao's murderous regime. I had hoped we had grown wiser. Unfortunately, one's own beliefs are more important that the fight for freedom in Cuba.

Please don't be a hypocrite and state your support for the people of Honduras in the fight against their coup government. You can't pretend to fight one dictatorship when you're championing another, and when you are insulting the victims of Castro's murderous regime.

[Wilms]

46. Quit trying shove words into my mouth.

What reprehensible post. :puke:

[DutchLiberal]

48. Denigrating political prisoners to petty thieves in order to defend dictator Castro...

THAT'S reprehensible.

[Wilms]

49. I did neither. I merely asked a relevant question.

The guy wanted home cooked meals, his own room, and his favorite clothes. He was turned down. So he committed suicide.

Did I miss anything?

[protocol rv]

51. Yes, you did miss something

The man wanted to be free, and not to be abused in a Cuban jail for his political beliefs. You know what bothers me about this topic? I don't like the Cuban government, but I think it's possible to have them change in a positive way without turning Cuba into another American colony. But they are clinging to the outdated Soviet model of repression, and fail to understand they have been following the wrong path, which is so easy to change. And one of these changes is very simple: they should not jail, abuse, beat up, or kill individuals because they do not agree with the ruling class. This is what they do in Honduras, and this is what they do in Cuba. And it's dumb. In the long term, they will lose.

[Wilms]

52. Ya think, just maybe, if the US would quit messing with these nations, that would improve?

Just maybe?

[protocol rv]

55. of course

But their problems are largely created by themselves. Blaming the US for their troubles is somewhat juvenile, because everybody on this planet has to live with large predators, yet Cuba seems to have a real problem knowing how to deal with it.

The Irish learned to live next to the UK, Singapore learned to deal with Malaysia and Indonesia, Hong Kong with the Chinese. They have had pragmatic leaders who have been smart enough to know when to fight and when to wait.

[Wilms]

57. I usually don't say this...

But, STFU. I wasn't talking to you.

[naaman fletcher]

60. This is a forum and message board.

The internet provides many by which you can have private conversations with someone. In fact, DU even has its own mail system. It is bad form to tell someone to STFU because he responded to a post that you put on a message board. Perhaps you just don't like being called out on your support for a brutal dictatorship.

[Wilms]

61. You and he can post whatever you like. But the fact remains, I wasn't talking to him...

...or you.

:hi:


"brutal dictatorship" haha reminds me of...

[naaman fletcher]

62. Yes I hate Bush..

What I don't get is why you would hate Bush and Cheney, who of course were not dictators as they left office, but support a brutal dictator, who actually is a dictator, and who imprisons people for political speech.

When I was in college, most people like you did it out of rebellion and to pick up chicks, but how anyone after a few years of thinking about it can support murderous dictators while hating Bush and Cheney makes no sense to me. Of course, I hate Bush and Cheney, but they didn't go imprisoning all of us for hating them. If we were doing the same thing in Cuba we'd all be in jail.

[EFerrari]

65. Ignore is a great feature.

[Mika]

54. This is jail?

Independent opposition member Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo in his Cuban jail.

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org.nyud.net:8090/menoyo-7-03.jpg

:rofl:


You know nothing about Cuba. Nada. Zip.

---

[protocol rv]

56. It's so sad

To think about the terrible conditions in Cuban jails. So well documented by Valladares in his book.

[DutchLiberal]

66. What's sadder, is people on DU defending them, and defending dictatorships...

But you are guilty of doing that as well, with your support of the Honduras coup government and you accusations against democratic leaders like president Chavez.

[protocol rv]

68. let's set the record straight

1. I never supported the coup in Honduras. I did think Zelaya was being stupid, violating the law, and pushing the limits with his behavior. I consider the current administration to be an elected one, even if the election was flawed, therefore it's over-dramatic to call it a dictatorship. I also happen to be a strong supporter of separation of powers, which means I oppose the evolution of an imperial presidency, and prefer to see a Congress or National Aseembly with teeth, as well as an independent judiciary. And there's no doubt in my mind that Zelaya was opposed by the democratically elected congress and the duly appointed supreme court of Honduras. Since two out of the three branches backed his removal, I don't consider the events in Honduras were as dire as say the coup which installed the military junta in Myanmar which has led to the imprisonment of Aung San Suu Kyi.

2. Chavez was elected in a democratic election, but he has gradually changed the power equation, and today can be considered an autocrat. And not only is he an autocrat, he is also an incompetent one. Consider the situation in Singapore 40 years ago, where an autocrat emerged after duly democratic elections...fortunately for them, this autocrat turned out to be very smart, and Singapore today is one of the richest nations on earth, with gradually increasing freedom. Thus autocracy as such isn't necessarily bad, but it does turn out to be bad most of the time. And in Venezuela it has turned out to be really bad. The bottom line is we have a huge crime wave, we have a national health crisis, an electricity crisis, a natural gas shortage, unemployment is rising, GDP is dropping, oil exports are dropping, we see arbitrary arrests and repression increasing, government corruption is really bad, and we can't get potholes fixed nor is the garbage picked up. So now you explain to me why exactly I should support a President when he's not performing well? Or do you think that once an individual wins an election he's in it for life, and no matter how lousy he behaves, we're supposed to support it?

Do you realize that in your case this is all a very theoretical exercise, but I have to wake up in the morning smelling the garbage, I'm the one who worries about walking to the store and getting robbed as I leave the building, I'm the one who has to worry about the water we get showing increasing amounts of sand and silt, and the lack of electricity, and see our regular TV shows cut out because the president likes to take over all transmissions all of the time to give four hour speeches, the main highlights of which are his arrogance and narcisism? Give me a break. Get me a visa to go to Holland to live, and I'll shut up.

[era veteran]

67. Just wondering

Are you aware the Cuban police can arrest you for 'pre-crime dangerousness'? They just think you may need arresting.

[Wilms]

70. No. I wasn't. Are you aware of any document to support that?

:shrug:

[era veteran]

71. I heard it on the TV a few years ago & it stuck in mind as Orwellian

Here is some other stuff, the video is good. http://www.openmarket.org/2008/08/28/pre-crime-social-dangerousness/ http://cubapolidata.com/?tag=precrime

[Wilms]

72. Bleech! Open Market? Thanks anyway.

:hi:

Wilms heads for shower...

[era veteran]

73. I know But did you watch the video?

[Mika]

74. "I heard it on the TV a few years ago...."

Well then, that confirms it. Some people say it so it has to be true. :crazy:

Your links refer to an editorial by an anti Castro exile who claims pre crime dangerousness with no documentation whatsoever. Second link repeats a completely debunked lie about Cuban punk rocker being arrested for "dangerousness". He wasn't arrested. He was given a $26 citation for disturbing the peace for conducting a loud profanity laced band practice in a residential heighborhood late at night.

If this is the standard of information (some people say) that you fall for, then I've got some prime swamp land to sell you, and a cable news channel for you to watch -

---

[era veteran]

75. You are closed minded to your love of the Communist dictator and his

murdering regime. Go worship Che now. MURDERERS

[Mika]

76. LOL. The definitive anti Castro response.

Kudos for the example, and for the fact-filled posts you've contributed here. :dunce:

---

[era veteran]

77. It is definitive because it's true

Stalinist murderers. Refute this FACT

[naaman fletcher]

59. Actually he refused to wear the uniform..

that would have marked him as a common criminal as opposed to a political prisoner. He was a man of principle, jailed for his beliefs by a brutal dictatorship that you support.

[Judi Lynn]

63. He also wanted his own tv and a phone. What a pathetic ass.

Having not been able to coerce these exceptional perks from the government he went large and tried to make the grand squeeze, and lost. But he still was good propaganda fodder, in his right-wing suporters' eyes.

We only have to look as far as the Guantanamo treatment of the hunger strikers there who were being tortured, clearly, and had no hope of freedom, and the US personel who slammed those feeding tubes down them, often ripping them out of one prisoner and jamming it into another without cleansing them first. They bloodied them, damaged them, didn't give them any local anesthetics, nada. Horrendous. Damned sad. All protest was futile and these men (and boys) have all been treated brutally.

[Billy Burnett]

64. Wonder how many suicides there are in US prisons?

Some stats that don't include federal prison.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjDAuW52JDLrP_v8ijcDopYw4959C8sAD_C8dnu6trsMofM_1gxFhcBqD6OyiOhD8B4w56nfklxe0CYILK5bu2r5WCIaUrcCEstDcot2wpCQ8iFh8vXwOAWsykF6ItG84zvpAJq&q=cache%3AW8tkQYN4W5YJ%3Abjs.ojp.usdoj.gov%2Fcontent%2Fpub%2Fpdf%2Fshsplj.pdf%20suicide%20rates%20in%20US%20prisons&docid=6fc2b710e64c8987db66dae447fb958f&a=bi&pagenumber=1&w=800

or in PDF form,

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/shsplj.pdf


and some US federal prison suicide stats (PDF),

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA421443&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf


The numbers in above studies (when extrapolated across the US prison population) are high.

U.S. prison population dwarfs that of other nations
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html


:hi:

[protocol rv]

69. There you go again

I keep repeating: US behavior isn't a yardstick for good behavior. People around the world don't give a hoot about what your government thinks is ethical or not. Cubans suffer in Cuban jails. This "pathetic ass' was a political prisoner. This means he was jailed because he opposed the Castro regime. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to set the record straight, and have a nice day.