Electricity crisis over in Venezuela

[Peace Patriot]

Electricity crisis over in Venezuela

The Vice President of Venezuela, Elias Jaua, declared an end on Sunday to the electricity crisis that had affected the country for most of the year

(SNIP)

Although climatic conditions were the main factor in Venezuela’s electricity crisis, the power shortages throughout the country also drew attention to a neglected infrastructure, which the government says it inherited from previous administrations.

As a response, the Chavez government began to invest heavily in the energy sector which, according to Jaua, “allowed us in record time of 6 months to incorporate 1,700 Megawatts” to the national system.

Venezuela has a current national electricity consumption of 17,000 MW, and demand has increased by 40% following years of high economic growth and increase in consumer access and buying power.

The government’s stated goal is to increase production by 5,900 MW by the end of the year to allow for the states of Zulia and Anzoategui, as well as the capital district of Caracas, to become completely independent of electricity generated by the Guri dam.

(SNIP)

“The government will continue with this important task of carrying out maintenance, of updating the system to meet an increased demand, improving the output of transmission substations, and carrying out important investments to increase thermoelectric generation so we can stop dependence on hydroelectric generation”, explained Marquez.

(MORE)

http://www.correodelorinoco.gob.ve/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WEB-COI-27.pdf (includes photo, and has other articles))
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/5610

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Gee, a country has a problem--outdated infrastructure, an especially severe drought--and the government immediately addresses the problem and solves the problem. But...hey, where are all the follow-up stories by the corpo-fascist press saying that the Chavez government is acting just like a normal, decent government, responding to a problem and solving it?

Where oh where are you, follow-up stories? Oh, only Evo Golinger covers it, whom one of our rightwing anti-Chavez crazies here at DU recently called "Goerring" (to Hugo Chavez's "Adolph Hitler"). NORMAL, DECENT government pulled together experts, energy and industrial workers and others, brainstormed, came up with a range of actions including a big government investment in new infrastructure, and temporarily curtailing heavy industry such a steel production (now back up) and additionally raised awareness about conservation. End of crisis.

You know, I am just outraged by the lies and the distortion in the corpo-fascist press about the Chavez government. It is one thing for the owners of a news organizations to have an opinion--say, that the rich should get richer, and those riches will "trickle down" to the poor--and express those opinions in editorials and with favored columnists; it is quite another to completely distort reality in the guise of the "news."

With regard to the Chavez government, we have seen rampant distortion of the news itself--for instance, we have seen the three "talking points' of the rightwing opposition in Venezuela--tutored by the USAID guided by the CIA's hidden hand--headlined across the world, in once reliable publications like the New York Slimes and the Wall Street Urinal, in numerous Associated Pukes articles, and even by the BBCons. "Blackouts, Inflation and Crime, Oh My! "Blackouts, Inflation and Crime, Oh My! "Blackouts, Inflation and Crime, Oh My!"--over and over and over again, just as if the major news organizations of the western world were marching along in rightwing opposition parades in Caracas. And never a follow-up. Never an account of the normal, reasonable workings of the Chavez government in response to the quite normal problems and crises that governments face. The "news" itself has become the campaign platform for the rightwing opposition in Venezuela.

We have seen many lies and distortions in the corpo-fascist press, perhaps the most dreadful and lethal being the daily promotion by the New York Slimes of the non-existent WMDs in Iraq. We must never forget this, and we simply must learn that lies and distortions--serving multinational corporations and war profiteers--are not always so obvious. They include was it is NOT written, what is NOT reported--these black holes of disinformation where information should be--and other hard to see manipulations of public opinion. The more sophisticated manipulators of the "news" like the New York Slimes (--although it is a stretch to call Simon Romero "sophisticated"--like Judith Miller, he's fairly crude) cue the corpo-fascist bobble-heads on TV 'news' shows and the venomous radio "talk show" hosts, as to what to distort and how to distort it. Thus, except for the internet--and independent investigators like Eva Golinger--the public is deprived of the means--objective information--of performing their duties as citizens--forming opinions on the issues, advocating as to government action, organizing and voting.

Thus, an unjust, cruel, extremely murderous war, like the U.S. war on Iraq--the wanton slaughter of a hundred thousand innocent people in the bombing of Baghdad alone--can be perpetrated BEFORE the public has enough information to try to stop it. Even so--and remarkably--nearly 60% of the American people opposed that war--Feb '03, all polls--but evidently it needed to be much higher and citizen action much more vigorous, to prevent it from happening. IF the corpo-fascist press had not been what they are--collusive liars--one of the most remarkable events in human history would have occurred: stopping a war that a vile government was determined upon. The failure of the "Fifth Estate" was colossal in that case. But in how many other instances--big and small--including their relentless demonization of Hugo Chavez and their "Alice in Wonderlandish" distortions on the leftist democracy movement in Latin America--are they failing us--or rather manipulating, propagandizing and disempowering us?

[bherrera]

1. Poor governance is shown

The crisis happened because they had, by poor governance, neglected to build and maintain their electric system. They had to waste a lot of money if they built these plants this fast, because they could not bid the contracts properly, nor did they prepare the logistics. Thus this is an example of very poor management of the funds of the nation, and not something to congratulate them. There are no distortions in a simple event like this, the country had an electricity crisis, there were power cuts, the government failed to act before the problem, then they reacted, but the money was wasted in huge sums. And the people seem to be aware this Venezuelan government is not very effective, which is one reason why they are not so popular anymore.

[naaman fletcher]

2. previous adminstrations

FTFA: "Although climatic conditions were the main factor in Venezuela’s electricity crisis, the power shortages throughout the country also drew attention to a neglected infrastructure, which the government says it inherited from previous administrations."

I have a philosophical question:

When Obama correctly blames our current economic woes on 8 years of the Bush adminstration, the teabaggers proclaim "you have been in office almost two years now, you can't blame anything on the GOP".


Of course they are wrong as the last two years of economic woes can very easily be blamed on the GOP.

However, here in this article, we have Chavez going back 12 years now. Does anyone have any good framework here for when an administration can be blamed for current problems? Does it take 12 years to understand that money needs to be put into electrical infrastructure? Does it take 12 years to improve it at all?

If 12 years is a good time, does that mean that the Bush administration has a legit claim that this is all Clinton's fault?

Just wondering. I'd hate to think that Chavez might not be perfect.

[ChangoLoa]

4. We were exporting power to our neighbors before this administration

Now, we're importing it and still don't have enough. All our infrastructure was built by previous administrations. This government has only imported foreign machines. That is the exact OPPOSITE of development.

[ChangoLoa]

3. The crisis is NOT over at all!

There was a crisis before the drought, there's still a crisis after it. It's just smaller. How cynical!

Do you think it's a good thing to buy more expensive and a LOT more polluting sources of power generation than the other alternatives we had (natural gas). As usual, this government attends problems at the last possible moment with the double amount of money.

A month ago you were telling everybody in this site that the war between Venezuela and Colombia was imminent (as you've been doing for years now) because of the US fleet which was kept in Costa Rica. It's very revealing to see how your sources are strictly governmental. Always.

[Peace Patriot]

5. ONLY rightwing opposition campaign issues make it into the corpo-fascist press.

NEVER does the corpo-fascist press provide ANY objective analysis and facts as to WHY the Venezuelan people have elected and re-elected the Chavez government, by big majorities, in honest, transparent elections. NEVER do they provide any objective account of Chavez government initiatives or followup on the Chavez government's response to criticism. NEVER do they report that the other leaders of Latin America respect Chavez and that many of them are good friends and allies of Chavez--including the leaders of Brazil, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua and others. NEVER! NOTHING! NADA!

That is my point. Not that Venezuela doesn't have problems, and not that the Chavez government has solved every problem. My point is that it is a NORMAL and on many objective criteria, a BENEFICIAL, government, with a president and other leaders respected throughout the region, and with whom other leaders gladly meet, in many forums--personal and official--to pursue common initiatives on a wide set of common goals and values. It is not humanly possible for any government to anticipate or solve every problem. It is not humanly possible never to fail, never to have blind spots, and, as the government leaders of a country, never to be wrong, never to have a single case of corruption, never to go down the wrong policy path, never to have personal failings of egotism or power struggles.

My point is that EVERY TIME this particular government has any of the above or other problems--NORMAL problems of government, NORMAL problems among human beings--it is exaggerated out of all proportion, by the corpo-fascist press and the USAID-tutored rightwing opposition, in a RELENTLESS campaign to bring down the Chavez government, even at the cost of democracy itself, in the case of the U.S.-supported, failed coup d'etat of 2002.

The only example of anything worse than this, in the corpo-fascist press, was the horrible campaign, led by the New York Slimes, for the U.S. to invade Iraq and slaughter tens of thousands of innocent people, on the basis of a damnable lie. The resemblance of that horrid media campaign to this one--against Chavez--is haunting. It is, indeed, one of the alarm bells that a war is being planned, when a government with an humongous war machine and its toady press corps pursue a campaign of demonization, lies and distortion like this one.

It is not just wrong. It is DANGEROUS.

To the above anti-Chavez campaigners, I offer this challenge: Find me one article in the corporate-run press that acknowledges ANY of the accomplishments of the Chavez government--i.e., the reasons why big majorities of the Venezuelan people have elected and reelected this government--or any article presenting a fair report on the Chavez government's response to a criticism (--fair, meaning government spokespeople are allowed to speak for themselves, without journalistic sabotage before and after their statements). I'll bet that you can't even find an article about the Chavez government's response to a criticism, let alone a fair one. And I am quite sure that you will find NONE AT ALL that attempts to objectively explain why Venezuelan voters have overwhelmingly supported this government (--that doesn't, for instance, say or imply that Chavez is "buying" the votes of the poor with anti-poverty programs--that illogical, dirty rotten tactic of corpo-fascist reporters).

Democracy--real democracy, with transparent elections--provides us with the best objective gage as to whether or not a government is beneficial to the majority of people. So, if a people repeatedly vote for a government, by big majorities, we can presume that there are widespread benefits to the population--that the government is doing the will of the people on many fronts.

WHERE IS THE ANALYSIS of the Chavez government based on the objective criterion of repeated election, in the corpo-fascist press? It has never existed, and it never will exist. We are looking at a rightwing, corporate-run PROPAGANDA campaign, from the very beginning of the Chavez government, carried out in the name of "journalism."

That is why I issue this challenge. For whatever reason, the above and other posters here at DU, do not recognize a propaganda campaign when they see one, and instead, keep fomenting this campaign, by obsessive dwelling on what the corpo-fascist press and the Venezuelan rightwing lay out as the failures and mistakes of the Chavez government, WITHOUT EVER ACKNOWLEDGING ITS SUCCESSES. They continually post negative articles about Chavez from the corpo-fascist press, and jump into forums with negative comments, never having anything objective to say and never addressing the core question of any objective analysis of the leftist revolution in Latin America--and the core question with regard to the Chavez administration: why has the left won so many elections in Latin America?

Why in Bolivia? Why in Ecuador? Why in Argentina? Why is Uruguay? Why in Paraguay, of all places? Brazil? Nicaragua? Guatemala? And Venezuela (the first)?

Do we get any analysis of this in the corpo-fascist press? Do we even get any reporting on it, at all? This question has answers. It is a deep question, with historical aspects to it, but it is also any easy question, answerable on the basis of the CURRENT policies and benefits of the leftist governments that have been elected.

Whether or not the Chavez government has made mistakes, has failed on some front, hasn't anticipated or solved every problem in Venezuela, hasn't solved a "street crime" problem that is endemic throughout Latin America, didn't see the drought coming, favors inflation over deflation, or whatever issue anybody wants to raise--the "cult of personality," the de-licensing of RCTV--is a subset of the OVERALL question of Latin American support for leftist solutions to the OVERARCHING issues of Latin American society, primarily POVERTY, and, in addition, U.S. historical and current policy of domination, interference, militarization and exploitation in these countries.

The leftist solutions are a mix of the capitalist and socialist systems--and emphasize education, empowerment of the poor majority, use of resources to benefit the poor majority, help to small business, increasing public participation in government and politics, siding with the poor majority against multinational corporations and the super-rich, widening international investments in their countries outside U.S. corporate control, environmental consciousness and activism, rejection of military (U.S.) solutions to problems such as the illicit drug trade, and cooperative Latin American infrastructure and economic development, financing, and promotion of human rights and democracy on Latin American terms, without U.S. dictation.

THIS is the context for the Chavez government's overwhelming electoral victories in Venezuela, and for the Chavez's government's efforts to implement new solutions to a long list of chronic problems that have plagued Venezuela, and Latin America in general, for two centuries.

I have not seen ANYTHING in the western press--other than the rare alternative publication--that acknowledges this context, or recognizes ANY of the Chavez government's successful efforts to reduce poverty and to create long-term bootstrapping policies that will pay off in the future (such as education and land reform). NOTHING! NADA! They dwell obsessively on any issue they can grab onto, or create, and NEVER examine why Chavez has been so wildly popular all this time, the substantial grass roots movement that underpins his success, the Chavez government's leadership and inspiration to the region, and their own dread of DEMOCRATIC government, palpably demonstrated by DEMOCRATIC elections.

So, when the Venezuela righting chants its mantra--"Blackouts, Inflation and Crime, Oh My!"--and the corpo-fascist press trumpets it all over the western world, and the anti-Chavez posters here chime in with their echoing trumpets, I despair of reasonable discussion. It is not possible to HAVE a reasonable discussion of Chavez, leftist policy or Latin America, on the basis of rightwing "talking points" cooked up in some "think tank" in Washington DC. Dwelling upon these "talking points" is pernicious blindness. The lack of follow-up on the Chavez government's initiatives to address the energy crisis is an example of this pernicious, manipulative, deliberate blindness. And the issue ISN'T whether those initiatives on energy are successful or not, or half-successful, or very successful (as the Chavez government claims) or "belated," or whatever you want to say in analyzing them. The issue is THAT THEY ARE NOT REPORTED OR DISCUSSED AT ALL!

The problem that the Chavez government was facing is headlined everywhere, including here. Their immediate and quite energetic action to address it IS IGNORED, here, and throughout the corpo-fascist press.

This is symptomatic of the entire campaign of slander, lies and disninformation that we have seen in the corpo-fascist press, about the Chavez government, and their colossal failure, overall, to report on and understand the leftist movement in Latin America.

[Judi Lynn]

6. The infrastructure Chavez found awaiting him was built to serve the interests of the oligarchy,

the vast poor majority of the population was simply ignored, expected to go pound sand, while still paying their taxes which continued to maintain the lives of the oligarchs in the manner in which they had learned to expect.

Hugo Chavez's administration has had far MORE work to do, since a complete restructing is underway, from top to bottom. Some areas must get priority first, then the less desperately needed objectives handled next in order. They are not maintaining an unjust, unethical system, they are building a new one from the ground up.

It's more important the ones who actually desperately NEED help get help first, rather than the slimy, greedy, officious racist oligarchs who already have been doing very well for themselves at the great expense of the entire country, whose labor, and patronage is required as life's blood itself by the elitist parasites.

[bherrera]

7. This is incorrect

Power generation infrastructure (large generation plants and distribution networks) are not designed for a particular class. The Chavez administration made a mistake, it ignored population growth and the increasing demand, and is neglected infrastructure additions. There is no sensible excuse for the mess they created, a government operated by smart people does not allow such an extreme crisis to development, when it has so much cash available. Today, the vast majority of the population suffers under a severe economic crisis, and some of it is caused by the lack of electricity in previous months, some of it will be caused by the huge sums wasted to build the wrong infrastructure, and do so in a rushed fashion. These guys running Venezuela should not be forgiven by the Venezuelan people, they are corrupt, criminal, venal, and stupid. The true socialists in Latin America are found in places such as Brazil and Chile.

[Judi Lynn]

8. Oh, my god. You're going to wear yourself out. The ones who dictated operations in Venezuela

prior to Hugo Chavez's landslide election WERE getting served, while the majority of the people, the HUMAN BEINGS, called "LUMPEN" by the cretins of the oligarchy, were suffering.

They had no voice, as the oligarchs had total control of ALL the news media. No one gave a flying #### what the hey happened to them. So, yes, everything was glorious in Venezuela as far as they were concerned.

Why the heck do you imagine so many people voted to bring this man into office, and voted to reject the oligarch's referendum, then voted him in again as their president, etc., etc., etc., as well as surging into the streets to stand at Miraflores and demand the criminals RETURN their President to office, and RETURN their government to their elected president?

The people of Caracas stood in the streets at their own peril while the oligarchs seized control of the military, kidnapped their president, forcde a news blackout on their crimes, and a news blackout on the fact the people are protesting the coup, while the mayor of Caracas shut down the citizen's tv station, Katia TV, and shut down the citizens' radio stations, then sent his police force out to run down and arrest and imprison all of Chavez' officials, while the oligarchs dissolved the National Assembly, the Supreme Court, nullified the Venezuelan constitution, seized control of the central bank, and even stole the money inside Miraflores, itself.

There aren't enough greedy wastes of skin in the world to be stronger than even a handful of righteous, decent, valuable human beings! That's the entire truth.

Don't gibber on and on and on here. It's not working out for you, and look who you have for support! Oh, my god!

[Zorro]

9. The Venezuelan power generation issue remains

The Venezuelan government neglected the power generation infrastructure for quite some time, and needs to make a long-term commitment to expand power generation capability based on projected population growth.

It also needs to appoint technically qualified managers and engineers to address the issue, and not make appointments based primarily on political philosophy. Otherwise they'll be seeding the clouds again or doing rain dances next spring.

[Peace Patriot]

51. Where is the New York Slimes' article on what the Chavez government DID in response to

the drought/hydroelectric power crisis--describing their initiatives, quoting them on the reasons for their initiatives, discussing the qualifications of their appointees, and so on--so that we can have a reasonable discussion about this?

You have a suggestion. You say the Chavez government "needs to appoint technically qualified managers and engineers to address the issue." Where are the credentials of those whom they did appoinmt, laid out in a reasonably objective article describing the Chavez government's response to the crisis, so that we can discuss this matter, with objective facts before us? You imply that they made energy appointments "primarily on political philosophy." How can we discuss this, if our corporate-run press is only interested in the headline, "Blackouts in Venezuela," and never publishes a follow-up article on the Chavez government's solutions? As to who they hired, perhaps it was a matter of choosing between equally qualified engineers--one set of which happened to be Cubans, who sympathize with the Bolivarian Revolution? Does a Bolivarian government not have the right to make that choice? Who says the Cubans or other engineers aren't qualified as engineers? Do you put people in charge of fixing big problems who don't want you to succeed?

But that really isn't the issue that I have raised, and you have not addressed the issue that I've raised. The New York Slimes blared a headline, "Blackouts Plague Energy-Rich Venezuela," which was picked and promulgated everywhere in the corpo-fascist 'news' world. Where is the follow-up? Where is the article that says, 'yes, there was a crisis with blackouts and brownouts, and, yes, the Chavez government didn't anticipate a serious drought, but here is what they've done to alleviate the problem temporarily and here is what they've done for the long term, and here are some experts who say that this is a good set of solutions, and here are some other experts who say it isn't enough or who criticize the creds of the engineers they chose, and here is what those engineers and Chavez government spokespeople say about that,' and so forth? WHERE IS THAT ARTICLE?

We won't find it in the once informative, prestigious newspaper that trumpeted "Blackouts Plague Energy-Rich Venezuela." We won't find it in the numerous other publications that pick up their international news from the New York Slimes, or in all the corporate news outlet that take their cues from the Slimes. It doesn't exist. Because the New York Slimes DON'T CARE about solving problems; they only care about demonizing a democratic government that is creating new rules for multinational corporations, by which these monsters have to respect the sovereignty of other countries.

The New York Slimes is deserving of that name. They have become the slimebag shills for the multinational corporations and war profiteers who are running things in Washington DC. The corporate line is to slander and demonize the Chavez government no matter what they do, and that's what we get from the Slimes & brethren. The Chavez government's many successes are NEVER reported. Their mistakes or failures are exaggerated beyond reason. Their popularity is neither credited nor explained. We just get this kind of headline--"Blackouts Plague Energy-Rich Venezuela"--over and over again, with no context, no depth, no background and no follow-up.

THAT is a propaganda campaign. The issue DOES NOT MATTER. We have been deliberately deprived of the information needed to assess the issue in context. What is desired is that we absorb a subliminal message that socialism is always bad, that Chavez is bad--"dictator," "incompetent," no matter the contradiction, just bad, bad, bad--and that only the unfettered rich can save us, with their looting and their wars.

You can have an opinion about the energy crisis in Venezuela. I can have an opinion about it. But where is there an objective account of the situation to which we can refer, for an informed discussion--or even an attempt at an objective account. It does not exist in the corporate-run press. That is what we once called "journalism" and it simply does not exist any more. The function of the press in our democracy has been usurped. We have to go to alternative sources to piece together a coherent picture of the real world. In that world, the Chavez government faced a crisis that is normal and typical of the crises faced by every government in the world. A drought struck their hydroelectric power system. They failed to anticipate it. They immediately took action to address it, and stopped the blackouts. They are planning for the future. Why was there no follow-up on this evidence that the Chavez government, though not perfect, is responsive and mobilized a very big effort to solve the problem, short term and long term?

Perhaps the most unusual aspect of the whole thing is that they consulted the workers in the energy and heavy industrial sectors. How about a story about that, hm? Not bloody likely.

[bherrera]

11. You are incorrect.

That verbiage you use is not correct. It is very simple, a country's electricity infrastructure is a backbone. It isn't really relevant to consider the end user when discussing the basic backbone, that is, the main power plants and the main power distribution system. And it is this main system which failed in Venezuela. Thus your arguments are again feeble and off the mark. The Chavez regime has been in power for 11 years, and it failed miserably to do what had to be done to ensure a reliable power supply at the baseline or backbone. Therefore, we can consider this government one of incompetents and outright idiots. Why do I say idiots? Because a government flush with cash from petrodollars which allows the infrastructure to decay this way, knowing that elections were approaching, has to be run by some of the most stupid politicians and bureaucrats I've ever seen. It is one thing for a poor nation to fail to have electricity, but a nation with a lot of cash should not be run this way. And the fact that the cash was available is demonstrated by the huge sums they spent this year to remedy this problem - a problem any man with a bit of common sense could see was to take place. These Bolivarians do not really care about the people, they are irresponsible thieves, corrupt, and venal. They should lose the elections, thus Venezuela can march on with a more competent administration.

[Joe Chi Minh]

16. "They should lose the elections, thus Venezuela can march on with

a more competent administration."

You can't tell them Venezuelan people owt, Baz. They're so pig-headed. I bet it was them what pressed for a national health service and all the rest of the Commie garbage!

[ChangoLoa]

10. Cut the crap

No real poor has ever paid for tax or electricity in Venezuela. Never ever. You don't have a iota of an idea of how that country works.

[Peace Patriot]

12. And YOU don't have an "iota of an idea" about being poor, or you would never say that--

--that "No real poor has ever paid for tax or electricity in Venezuela."

The poor may not have any money to pay taxes on, but, in prior Venezuelan history, they have PAID and PAID and PAID, with their labor at shit wages or in virtual slavery, with ill health, with no health care, with seeing their children die from hunger or illness, with loss of their small plots of land with which to feed their families and communities, with being driven into urban squalor by rich landowners, with ill housing that slides off the hills around Caracas in the heavy rains, with no street lights, with no police protection at all, with no public services, with no money to buy shoes for their children so they can go to school, with no schools or underfunded schools, with college and even high school entirely out of their reach, with racial bigotry, with no hope whatsoever for getting a bank loan to start a small business, with necessities like bus rides being priced out of their reach, with inflation that reached 100% during the prior "neo-liberal" (pro-U.S.) government, with hiked fees and costs of every kind due to "neo-liberal" privatizations, and so much more, including getting murdered for protesting, all--ALL--inflicted on them to BENEFIT THE RICH AND FURTHER ENRICH THE RICH.

The poor have no money to pay taxes on because they had been deliberately, systematically, brutally deprived of the real value of their labor, of their land, of access to capital and of all hope for their children's future--TO MAKE THE RICH RICHER.

ChangoLoa, your oligarchic views are showing! Only an advocate of the rich would say that the poor don't pay for government of, by and for the rich!

[ChangoLoa]

14. I actually do but try to come back to earth; you're talking about something else now

I know kinds of poverty that you won't ever be able to see in your developed country. I've experienced life situations that you wouldn't even think about. You see, I know what I'm referring to when I talk about public hospitals, public schools, universities and dispensaries in a third world country such as mine. You clearly don't. You've just seen "The Treasure of Sierra Madre"...:dunce:

But that's not the subject here.

Here, it was about a simple historical fact. In Venezuela, OIL pays for government and no taxes existed until the late 1980's excepted for the public servants and the imports. The electricity for all slums and poor areas is and has always been free. I know it because I lived by the blocks as a kid. You really have no idea.

Btw, aren't you the "leftist" poster who thinks foreign posters shouldn't be posting here?

yes, you are... a piece of work.

[Joe Chi Minh]

18. "I lived BY the blocks." "BY the blocks?" Sounds like your monied quarter

might have overlooked the slums from some distance, but I bet they'd have made short work of you if you ever strayed too close to their 'blocks'.

It's not uncommon for rich and poor quarters to be contiguous. Sometimes there was, it seems, a railway line in between them in the US. But they change upmarket and downmarket over the decades. Anyway, it doesn't mean you know ANYTHING you're spouting about as a self-styled authority.

You sound like yet another of those right-wing half-wits who ask, as if it's a killer put-down, "Have you lived there?" You need a modicum of intelligence to post on DU. Why is it you latino right-wingers insist on reducing DU's average IQ by so many points.

[ChangoLoa]

20. "BY the blocks" ~ IN the blocks.

The stupidity of your wannabee insults is remarkable.
How could you possibly know what I am or what I think before you ask?

Only an old reactionary fart would conclude that I lived in a "monied quarter" as a kid because I have now an internet connection and can write more or less understandable English (excepting some prepositions). You do think we live on trees. I know the weight of your generation and the fact that you were educated in a racist, self-centered society, so I'm more amused than shocked.

In our country, poor areas are connected informally to the power lines. They don't pay. It's a general accepted compromise since the 60's, an informal institution. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Zorro]

22. ChangoLoa, forgive him

for he knows not what he does.

[Joe Chi Minh]

25. Wow! We're posing as crucified Christ figures now! People who spit on

Christ's most emphatic and insistent Gospel teachings, by supporting right-wing regimes in South America, of all places!

Chavez has helped hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, to survive and even thrive. What have you done for them, other than support a right-wing party that would crush them once again? Read Christ's own description of the Last Judgment in Matthew, and tremble.

[Zorro]

31. Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged

Oh, and I personally support several campesino families.

What do you do, other than judge others?

[Joe Chi Minh]

36. Christ is our model. Motivation is everything. John the Baptist also

inveighed vehemently against the scribes and Pharisees, too, calling them "a brood of vipers".

The point about the Christ's command not to judge, lest we be not judged, is that we human beings have a tendency to want our adversaries to be damned, rather than be converted. Our faith in Christian eschatology, alas, is seldom stronger than it is at the thought of such a fate awaiting them.

However, it is not a command to abdicate the use of our intelligence. The Christian is obligated to speak to a person's condition - and that presupposes analysis of the latter, an exercise of discernment, judgment, on his part.

When I'm not judging others, I fester. How about that?

[Zorro]

39. You fester?

I thought they called it wanking over there.

Whatever, Uncle Fester.

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. No. Festering like a sore. A life of geriatric idleness. "Wanking" is something else

all together, and more a young unmarried man's thing. More up your street, I expect.

You too, are improving! UNCLE FESTER!!!!!! Will you always call me that? Even just "Fester" would be good. And I'll probably initially respond with the words..... "You r-a-a-a-a-n-g". You'll be used to servants always being on call.

[ChangoLoa]

43. "The old fart" would certainly fit better.

[Joe Chi Minh]

44. I marginally prefer, Uncle Festus', but I mustn't look for favours from

posters with a deeply corrupt socio-economic outlook. But truth to tell, with Old Fart, you speak more wisely than you know.

[ChangoLoa]

38. Truly sad ways.

[Joe Chi Minh]

24. It was you who said, "By the blocks", not "in the Blocks", as you are now claiming.

You need a good memory, if you tell woppers! But not that good, from one post to the next, surely. Just, not demented. You must have the attention span of a fruit-fly.

You don't come from a poor background. What you write, reeks of privilege.

[ChangoLoa]

29. I thought both meant the same, you fruit loop.

You do think we live on trees.

[Joe Chi Minh]

32. Yes, in a sense you rich do. Although Christ compared you rich, unfavourably, with the dumb beasts -

specifically the street dogs, considered by his society to be the lowest form of life. So, yes, in a sense, it could be said that you live in the trees. You're becoming increasngly perceptive. Keep up the scriptural insights, won't you.

"I thought both meant the same, you fruit-loop."

Well, your fluency in English is clearly inadequate for this board. A little lagoon of Babel Fish in an ocean of intelligibility. Shame the difference between "by" and "in" is so crucial to an understanding of the text.

[Zorro]

35. ChangoLoa's English fluency is fine

It may be your perpetually confounded state that is interfering with your English comprehension.

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. Love it! You're learning, Zorro. I really like it. Not exactly rapier wit, but trying - haplessly,

in the event, though not for want of trying - to turn my own words against myself. Verbal ju-jitsu. There's hope for you on this board yet. At least as an Aunt Sally!

[ChangoLoa]

42. You're still insisting on the by/in issue?

Amazing.

How would you know if I'm rich?

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

47. That's an apt imagery choice, on various levels.

http://www.maine.gov.nyud.net:8090/portal/photo_contest/images/wildlife_spring2008_3494-1st.jpg

Just hand them their keyboards.

http://www.arcatapet.com.nyud.net:8090/fullsize/12069.jpg http://www.arcatapet.com.nyud.net:8090/fullsize/12941.jpg http://www.geeky-gadgets.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/rubber-chicken-usb-drive.jpg

[Peace Patriot]

13. Just found this interesting interview of Chavez by Greg Palast, in 2006.

Palast makes a point that I have often made--that Chavez is very like FDR:

"Politically, Venezuela is torn in two. Chávez’s 'Bolivarian Revolution,' a close replica of Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal—a progressive income tax, public works, social security, cheap electricity—makes him wildly popular with the poor. And most Venezuelans are poor. His critics, a four-centuries’ old white elite, unused to sharing oil wealth, portray him as a Castro-hugging anti-Christ."
http://www.progressive.org/mag_intv0706

The rightwing of the 1930s pretty much considered FDR to be "the anti-Christ." Their venom against him had that same hysterical tone as that of the rightwing anti-Chavez posters here at DU and of Venezuela's rightwing. Such people fear democracy, have no ideas in their heads other than that they themselves should be rich and powerful, and thus, when challenged, make wild, "Alice in Wonderland-ish" statements, such as comparing Chavez to Hitler (--which one of these DU posters just did, recently). The "tea-bagger" mentality is not new.

Greg Palast is one of the extremely rare instances of intellectually adventurous journalism to be found in the entire western press. (He had a regular gig at the BBC. Don't know if he's there any more.) (Great web site, too: http://www.gregpalast.com/). He goes to the source--interviews Chavez himself, and lets him speak in his own words. And he doesn't treat him gently either. He goads him repeatedly. Palast doesn't trust power, period. And it's quite interesting to read this "dictator," this "tyrant," this "megalomaniac," this "Hitler," this bogeyman, this "Castro-hugging anti-Christ," giving quite reasonable, even-tempered answers to Palast's pointed questions.

I think that we couldn't go far wrong, as to the public's access to real information, if the New York Slimes, the Wall Street Urinal, the Washington Past, the Miami Hairball, the Associaated Pukes and the entire corpo-fascist monopoly of the "news" went under, and only Greg Palast was left standing.

[bherrera]

17. Widly popular with the poor isn't enough

The majority of Venezuelans think Chavez is doing a poor job. This is caused by the poor economy, high inflation, high crime rate, government corruption, and electricity crisis. Thus, the glory days are over, he has misnamaged Venezuela into a crash, and it will never recover.

[Joe Chi Minh]

19. WRONG! The majority of Venezuelans are poor! WHERE IS YOUR ANALYTICAL INTELLIGENCE?

[Zorro]

21. YEAH!

JOE KNOWS MORE ABOUT VENEZUELA, BECAUSE, BECAUSE...HE'S NEVER BEEN TO VENEZUELA!

BUT HE TOOK A GEOGRAPHY CLASS ONCE!

THEREFORE HIS KNOWLEDGE OF VENEZUELA IS SUPERIOR TO THAT OF VENEZUELANS!

SO THERE!

[Joe Chi Minh]

23. Wow! How insightful you are about the connection between residence and knowledge

of a country... I stand confounded.

[Zorro]

26. Of course you stand confounded

It's a natural stance for you.

[Joe Chi Minh]

30. Ah that rapier repartee...

[Judi Lynn]

27. How much could we expect US Tea Baggers to know about their own country!

They've lived here all their lives.

It almost triggers a gag reflex when you find someone who expects you to believe that living in any country gives you the knowledge you need to know about it. Christ!

http://www.lesliebyrne.org.nyud.net:8090/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/teabaggers.jpg http://randomoverload.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/01737dee58ionary.jpg.jpg

http://cdn.crooksandliars.com.nyud.net:8090/files/uploads/2009/09/teabagger_signs_912_0cee6.JPG http://www.pensitoreview.com.nyud.net:8090/Wordpress/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/photo-tea-bagger-with-n-word-300.jpg

http://www.feministe.us.nyud.net:8090/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/IMG_8866-780259.JPG

How much do these citizens know about the U.S. According to some, they are EXPERTS because they live here.
When the brilliant Teabaggers travel, it stands to reason, they become experts on the countries they visit!

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. But that is the level of their intelligence. A function of their integrity. Nothing

more, nothing less.

[Judi Lynn]

34. Exactly! Nothing else at all. A lot of people die deeply ignorant, full of hatred. n/t

[naaman fletcher]

48. like the only person on this board whose main contribution is the personal attack? nt.

[Judi Lynn]

49. He has so many friends here going back years ago. This would be Democratic, progressive friends,

of course: the ones whom you'd expect to see here.

[naaman fletcher]

52. So? He still only engages primarily in personal attacks..

As seen by the at least 5 or 6 posts pulled and one thread frozen in last two days.

[Judi Lynn]

54. Your record is nothing to write home about. The one you've attacked is a progressive.

He is well respected. He has a mulitude of friends here.

His presence is welcomed, always has been.

He ADDS a lot to the shared discussion, momentum, experience. Very important to D.U.'ers.

There would only be a small, grimey group of maggots who wouldn't agree with that.

[Zorro]

33. Then by your "logic"

you likely don't know anything about life in the US, even though you live there?

[Joe Chi Minh]

40. Hilarious extrapolation, Zorro. I swear you're as mad as a hatter.

[Zorro]

50. I'm sure you swear a lot

when you read responses to your gitticisms.

[Joe Chi Minh]

53. Well, unfortunately, I do swear a lot. But, funnily enough, your posts

have exactly the same effect on me - and more. They relieve me of stress, as the oaths do, but, alas, by sending me into fits of laughter.

Oh, and by the way, what is your response to Christ's vilification of you for straining at a gnat, only to swallow a camel? To his vehement repudiaton of your notion that hand-outs are a substitute, indeed, an improvement on changing the unjust, economic structures of society?

[Joe Chi Minh]

55. "Then Abraham said to him (the rich man), 'If your brothers do not listen to Moses

and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even if someone were to rise from the dead.'"

One interesting thing to note about the parable is that Jesus did not say that the rich man did not give Lazarus, the poor man, anything, but that nobody did - clearly implying the rich man's pernicious, political influence.

[Joe Chi Minh]

56. Another interesting thing about that parable is that Jesus doesn't

explicitly call the rich man and his brothers evil, wicked, bad. Instead, he quietly sets forth the ultimate realities, making that point about their pernicious political influence, if anything, in an understated way; and then he quotes Father Abraham describing their consignment to the flames of hell in a very measured, almost tender way, even calling the rich man, "my son". In the light of Christ's much more angry and bitter denunciation of the scribes and Pharisees of his day to their face, as the spawn of Satan, his muted tone here sounds all the more menacing, doesn't it? Talk quietly, and carry a big stick.

In fact, here, Christ seems to be scrupulously avoiding making an explicit value-judgement, in favour of stressing its inevitability - absolutely in line with Mr Cheney's protestations about the American Dream and the covetousness it predicates not being negotiable. Even if a man should rise from the dead..... But, alas, for those who are covetous, at the expense of others, the Second Commandment's non-negotiability is equally adamantine.

It's as if he'd tired of delivering emotional diatribes, to no avail, and had decided to just lay it on the line to them: "Here's the way it is. See who wins...."

[Billy Burnett]

15. Peace Patriot, thanks for posting these articles.

As well as your thoughtful commentary.

Much appreciated :hi: