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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 03:07 PM
Original message
From Wikileaks - today.
Edited on Sun Nov-28-10 03:08 PM by dipsydoodle
Wednesday, 16 September 2009, 07:34
S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 04 PARIS 001254
NOFORN
SIPDIS
EO 12958 DECL: 09/16/2018
TAGS PREL, PARM, KNNP, BH">BH, SM, MK, GR">GR, FR">FR
SUBJECT: A/S GORDON'S MEETINGS WITH POLICY-MAKERS IN PARIS:

>

VENEZUELA

--------------------------------

13. (C) Levitte observed that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is "crazy" and said that even Brazil wasn't able to support him anymore. Unfortunately, Chavez is taking one of the richest countries in Latin America and turning it into another Zimbabwe.

14. (U) Assistant Secretary Gordon has cleared this message. RIVKIN

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/225319 form

source http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-wikileaks

They write what pleases them. Nutjobs.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Just saw some wikileaks threads on Hil requesting evesdropping on UN reps.
Just like the Bush admin did.




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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They reckon
that tommorow you'll be able to tune into ANY news station worldwide and this will be the subject they are discussing - Wikileaks.

As am aside : Latest here now is that ALL Yemini air raids including those on villages have been carried out by US planes a fact that now pubic may upset the apple cart over there.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well yeah, they just make shit up, that's been obvious for a long time.
The natural mode of governments is arrogance and paranoia, and that is what the cables will show.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. Is the author referring to the increased access to democratic process
people of color have in Venezuela? It sounds like it. If my rich wingnut uncle said that, that's what he'd mean.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. "people of color"
wow

So you're "white", I suppose.

I know you mean no bad but... hell, "people of color", what an expression!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Actually, your supposition isn't right
although I am light enough to "pass" in mostly hilarious ways. The expression is widely used here. I picked it up in academia, come to think of it. :)
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. And American "colored people" don't resent it?

Back to the point you were making, I ask myself: as a "colored person" in Venezuela, do I have more access to democratic process now than I used to have before? I'm not sure at all.

What I saw is that my "colored" sister-cousin got fired from the public office where she had been working for the last 15 years because she signed in the referendum and then appeared in the Tascon List. Before that, she never supported any government and was in the lists of an opposition party. She NEVER had a problem.

The discrimination I can observe in Venezuela has always been social, not racial. In many Latin American countries, racial discrimination is a real plague. Colombia, Peru-Bolivia, Brazil, were vice-royalties with precious metals during the colonial times. They all had an aristocratic, Iberian, "white" class ruling the society. Venezuela was the poorest, least important colony in the region. It's socio political model is very different. Socially and politically, very liberal (1st to abolish death penalty, 1st to authorize divorce and to tolerate abortion, etc.). Racially, very mixed. Unlike Colombia, for example, rich classes in Venezuela are brown, not white. I don't remember which 19th century writer used to say about Venezuela: "whites are not white at all and blacks are far from being black". I'll try to find out.

But anyway, between you and me, I'm amazed to what extent Americans racialize every political issue they get to hear about. I imagine it has a lot to do with their own history.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. The expression "colored people" isn't the same as the expression
"people of color", btw. The one was used in the Jim Crow South, the other is a respectful term.

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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Interesting distinction
I hadn't seized the subtlety.:)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. It is, like the difference between calling a woman
a "missus" (married woman) and a "madame" (prostitute) where the words literally mean roughly the same thing. But language is like that. As Steve Pinker says, how can a house burn UP and burn DOWN at the same time?

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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Hmm
It makes me wonder... why is there a linguistic necessity to bring together all non whites under an euphemism? What does it show?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I don't know about other places but here there is a necessity
to describe and discuss how this society treats people of color, for example. Gender, class and "race" are three points of intervention in the continuing effort for equality here, and now we'd add, sexual orientation.

In this country, people of color disproportionately are poor, incarcerated, unemployed and ill from lack of services. They are under-represented, still, in just about every social institution. There has to be a way to talk about that.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It's common here, in academia, sometimes in the news.
Not offensive, although I do sometimes wonder if I am supposed to be a "person of whiteness" or something. I think the only real and important distinction is between "people of money" and "people of no money", and that otherwise we are all just "people".
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I think the expression does come from an old root
which we all know about. When there's an euphemism, there's a reason...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. It has two functions:
1.) A new word to avoid any of the old ones, a politically correct term with no negative connotations. I think it is going out of fashion in that sense, it is mostly used in academia now, where it is very important to be neutral, it used to be more common in the public media. Or at least that's what I see.

2.) A phrase to designate all non-whites together, useful in that sense, particularly in "multi-cultural" situations, which are much more common than they once were. California, where I live, is around 50% "persons of color" now, and that means people from all over the world, asians, africans, latinos, middle eastern, you name it, and of course us European immigrants, we got them. And it that situation, it is a useful word, though it is more common here to consider the different ethnic divisions independently, and to consider ethnicity rather than "race" or skin color, which is superficial and means little. People intermix so freely here that superficial distinctions become meaningless.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. No, "people of color" is not a euphemism for the N word
which is a slur. It is widely used in the communit(y/ies) here and it is not a slur.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Its a politically correct white expression
assumed to be acceptable to those to whom it refers notwithstanding the fact that those to whom it refers probably never had any say in the matter.

It isn't used much, if at all, in the UK where blacks have a general preference for being refered to as such - matter of pride really given they don't want to be grouped in with Asians from the Indian sub continent. For exactly the same reason Orientals here prefer to be called Orientals.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. It's widely used in mixed conversation, too, and doesn't only refer to
black people. In CA, there are all sorts of colorful and somewhat colorful people, lol, so maybe that's why we settled on this inclusive term. :)
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. A dubious grouping, I also think.
On one side, white people. On the other, people "of color".

Could lead to awkward situations...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4P5HNcuL_I&feature=related
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Except the term is not a "white" term, witness its use by
Edited on Tue Nov-30-10 03:09 PM by EFerrari
our preeminent scholars on African American and Africa studies, Henry Louis Gates, Angela Davis, Alice Walker and Toni Morrison.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Venezuela isn't ANYTHING LIKE Zimbabwe. But that was a RW "talking point" being pushed here
around the same time. (I presume that the date on the secret memo is a typo. 2008, not 2018) (--unless the Bushwhacks had a time machine?). Suspicion: Either the RWers here are "insiders" in the Bushwhack propaganda machine or there is a central source for these "talking points" that RWers here consult. Turning Chavez into Robert Mugawbe and Venezuela into Zimbabwe was really being pushed here by RW posters for a time.

Wait a minute. There are TWO dates on this memo: The one at the top, 16 September 2009, and the one on line 5 starting with "EO"--9/16/2018. (Is 2018 meant to be a year? Or is it just secret memo code?) I also notice that the Assistant Secretary of State is Philip Gordon, an Obama/Clinton appointee.

Both dates are September 16, but what year? Must be 2009, if it's Gordon. The Guardian interactive map says 2009.

What are we to make of this interesting mistake of mine--presuming that it was a Bushwhack memo until I read it more carefully?

The Obama/Clinton foreign service is spouting the SAME KIND OF PROPAGANDA CRAP on Chavez as the Bushwhacks, is one lesson. Though we have more evidence every day that Obama/Clinton policy on Latin America IS THE SAME AS BUSHWHACK POLICY--intense pre-war propaganda along with a Pentagon buildup in the region--I guess it is still hard for some of us to get our brains around HOW BAD Obama/Clinton are on these issues. We still have what Emily Dickinson called "a thing with feathers"--that is, HOPE. Maybe we're down to one quill but it still manages to float and fly.

But wait another minute. More analysis. As per the above, Gordon didn't write the memo, just "cleared it." Presumably he liked its content, though. "Levitte" is described in another Wikileak memo as an "Elysee Diplomatic Advisor"--that is, a policy advisor to France's rightwing president Sarkozy. Apparently, all of the "policy makers" that Gordon met with in Paris were French government policy-makers and advisors.

While the first sentence of the memo says "Levitte observed" (that Chavez is "crazy" and Brazil doesn't support him--both things very untrue), it is not entirely clear in the memo WHOSE opinion it is that Venezuela is being made into Zimbabwe. Levitte? Gordon (who "cleared" the memo)? Or Gordon's scribe? Probably it's Levitte's, but it's not entirely clear.

So this COULD BE simply a REPORT of what one of the FRENCH (rightwing) policy advisors said.

Sarkozy is not all that rightwing, by our standards, but he is rightwing by French standards--and he also has been playing to the anti-Islamic immigrant French rightwing. Chavez inviting the president of Iran to Venezuela might have smarted. But Brazil's Lula da Silva did the same. So It's probably Chavez's SOCIALISM that has gotten under Sarkozy's skin. They've had massive strikes and riots in France over rightwing/big money "austerity" measures (fattening the banksters, starving the public sector that serves the poor with education, health care, etc.), while the Chavez government pours oil money, hand over fist, into education, health care and other bootstrapping of the poor (the proper thing to do in a Depression) and has cut poverty in half and extreme poverty by over 70%.

Another issue between Chavez and Sarkozy may be France's Total oil company, which has concessions in Venezuela--and, by the Chavez government's insistence in tough bargaining, on Venezuela's terms!{/i] So Sarkozy may side with Exxon Mobil & brethren in wanting all the oil profits for themselves and none for Venezuela's poor, though Total is still operating in Venezuela and Exxon Mobil walked out in a snit. They may be on the same page as to greed. And this would very certainly give Sarkozy and his foreign policy advisors motive to join the propaganda binge on Chavez.

Remaining question: Is Gordon on board with this view or just reporting it via a scribe? There is LOTS of evidence that Obama/Clinton and their foreign service appointees are as bad as the Bushwhacks on Chavez and in general on the Latin American leftist democracy movement. But this memo is NOT clear evidence of it.

Lesson: We should read these Wikileaks memos carefully. Research the players, the time-frame and the context. And understand that SOMEONE is writing it. What might the scribe's motives be? Even if it has been "cleared," does that mean that the honcho actually paid attention to it? Could scribe be sabotaging honcho? (Say a Bushwhack mole in the foreign service?) There's that thing again, with feathers.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. To be fair,
The cable does not say that Venezuela "is" another Zimbabwe, rather that Chzvez is "turning it into" another Zimbabwe i.e. that is what it will become. To be clear, Mugabe did not make Zimbabwe what it is overnight. In fact, Mugabe was fine for more than ten years.

After initial, much needed reforms, he decided he liked the power and started resorting to more and more land takings and other things that killed the country.

What will Chavez be doing ten years from now? Will he still be taking land and companies? How much is enough "reform"? As it drags out, how much will the uncertainty kill peoples willingness to invest? Only time will tell. I was all for the early reforms, just like I am in Bolivia. However as they drag on year after year after year nobody who owns anything will be confident that they will be able to keep it, and will therefore stop investing in and maintaining their property.

Zimbabwe also showed that simply taking land and giving it to "the people" doesn't work. "the people" need time and training and experience to run the land efficiently.

What will happen in Venezuela? We should know within two years or so.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. Venezuela just signed a huge oil deal with Italy's ENI. Bolivia just got Japan to invest in
a study of Bolivia's lithium deposits, with no commitment to Japanese companies. Japan is doing it just to position their companies better, when Bolivia starts the contract bidding.

There is no sign that MULTI-LATERAL trade (as opposed to U.S.-dominated trade) has been hurt in these countries. OTHER countries and their companies are willing to operate in Venezuela on Venezuela's terms and in Bolivia on Bolivia's term. U.S. corporations are not used to a level playing field. They don't want to compete. They don't want to deal on anybody else's terms. And they most certainly do not want to take any responsibility for the welfare of the people who own the resources. So a smallish company like Italy's ENI (compared to, say, Exxon Mobil) is benefitting. There are at least eight companies, from as many countries, willing to operate in Venezuela on Venezuela's terms to be able to exploit Venezuela's huge oil reserves (biggest in the world--twice Saudi Arabia's--according to the USGS). This is what the Chavez government has done for Venezuela--it has asserted Venezuela's sovereignty and its right to demand a hugely better deal for Venezuela and its social programs, than prior governments did with the likes of Exxon Mobil. They have DIVERSIFIED the bidders! Those who are not so greedy can operate in Venezuela and the rest can go jump in lake. Venezuela doesn't need their arrogance, their gross interference and their greed.

Venezuela's land reform program is an extremely careful one. For about half a decade, they did nothing at all as to private landowners with clear title--and they surely had reason to seize some of the those (--thousands of acres of farm land with absentee landlords, or farm land that was not being used for anything--and Venezuela with a food sovereignty problem!). But they didn't touch them. They converted government lands and lands without title, to farming. And they absolutely have NOT just "given away" the lands to the poor. They have a well-thought out, rigorous process of training farmers, and withholding title to the land until the farmers have proven that they are producing food as planned. I wouldn't be surprised if Venezuela's agricultural planners studied models like Zimbabwe for mistakes that others have made, because they seem to know them all and to have thought out solutions.

One of the things that prior rightwing/"free trade" governments did, that was so very bad for Venezuela, was to side with big, rich landowners when they drove small peasant farmers from the land, resulting in a vast migration of very poor people into urban areas, where they can't feed their families, let alone their communities, and who end up in urban squalor, with few nor no jobs to be had--and no education and training. At the same time, these governments encouraged the development of a well-off, urban elite, addicted to imported goods, and mostly living off the oil wealth, with no thought to the general welfare and the future of their own country. Reversing such a bad policy is very difficult, but that is what the Chavez government determined to do. But they are doing it with enticements--training, farm loans, technical help and the future prospect of getting title to the land if the farmers do well consistently. They are not doing it with any kind of draconian measures--such as Stalin did, for instance--neither as to forcing people back to the land nor as to confiscating lands.

Another tragedy of that rightwing/"free trade" mode was the LOSS OF KNOWLEDGE OF FARMING, that is passed from generation to generation in rural areas. The Chavez government's farming education programs, and their gentler treatment of still-existing small peasant farmers, is addressing this crazy and devastating policy of losing knowledge and skill in an essential industry--food production. I saw a documentary on Jamaica's loss of food sovereignty under "free trade" rules and it is HEART-BREAKING to see a traditional dairy farmer, for instance, destroyed by imported U.S. powdered milk, weeping over his inability to pass his farm and his knowledge of farming to his children. They destroyed his market. They destroyed him. And they destroyed the future.

But there are still some traditional farmers in Venezuela. Many of them have been robbed of their lands. The Chavez government is siding with them in disputes with big landowners. This is pretty much the story across Latin America. Land has been stolen from millions and millions of small-scale, organic, peasant farmers--the campesinos--in the past by the local rich and powerful, more recently for multinational corporations like Chiquita and Monsanto. In Colombia, five MILLION small farmers have been displaced from their lands--THE worst human displacement crisis on earth. The lands were given to Alvaro Uribe's rich friends, to corporations and to the big, protected drug lords--all with the support of $7 BILLION in military aid from the U.S. It is Colombia's greatest tragedy--in a country with many tragedies.

Santos (Uribe's successor) says that he is going to do something about this. We'll see. Colombia's the country that has to prove itself. Can it stop murdering its peasant farmers, to begin with, let alone displacing them? Can it stop creating a slave labor force of poverty-stricken, displaced peasants in its cities, for multinational corporate sweatshops? Corporate interests like this, you know, and they do "invest" in other peoples' slavery. Should these 'dog eat dog' types be permitted to rule countries with their money? As in Jamaica, what about the FUTURE? And what about decency--a decent society, that everyone benefits from? Colombia has a long way to go to prove itself.

The Chavez government's experiments have been largely successful. They've cut poverty in half and extreme poverty by more than 70%. They've kept unemployment very low. And millions of Venezuelans now have access to education and health care, who didn't before. The Chavez government is working toward and betting on the future--on an educated, motivated population, and they have created rather enormous economic success--a 10% rate of growth, over five years (2003 to 2008), with the most growth in the private sector (not including oil)--before the Bushwhack Depression hit the world. Venezuela is more vulnerable to that Depression because of the dramatic drop in oil prices. But they are headed in the right direction, overall--investing in their people. That cannot be said for Colombia.

The impact of Chavez's level of nationalizations depends on a lot of factors. Some of the nationalizations have not been nationalizations at all. For instance, the government itself had invested in a hotel complex with private partners. When the government's legal option to buy out the private investors came up, the government bought them out. This was treated in the corpo-fascist press as a seizure of private property and it was not. In other cases, private corporations have not been obeying the laws, or their owners have engaged in corruption, or, in the case of some banks they were corrupt and fleecing people (and endangering depositors). These have been seizures for cause--somewhat similar to our anti-drug police seizing marijuana growers' homes, cars and other property--but with MORE cause and certainly with more justice. I think our government should be doing the same to corporate scofflaws, or merely to corporations that get TOO BIG. Such corporations are a danger to our sovereignty. They have no inherent right to exist. They exist only my permission of a sovereign people and when they start running the government and hijacking the military for corporate oil wars, they ought to be de-chartered and dismantled. Or, rather, they need to be de-chartered and dismantled before they get too powerful.

The question about some nationalizations (none of the above) is, can the government or the workers run the business to fulfill its social purpose--whether providing steel for housing constructions, or food distribution, or whatever? And can they do so without Stalinist coercion and violence? Well, so far, the Chavez government has shown no penchant for coercion or violence of any kind. They think that FREELY CHOSEN socialism will work. And their socialism is not a whole lot different from the socialism in some European and Scandinavian countries. I have read interviews of Chavez in which he talks about the mistakes of the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe and the internal mistakes of Eastern European communist countries--and specifically, Stalinism, coercion and violence. For all his bombast, he is a thoughtful man and a reader--and so are many of those in his government. They are not stupid people. They know what they are doing. But, yes, they are experimenting and some things remain to be seen.

Can you remove the motive of a few people getting rich, and run a business on the motive of fair wages/fair prices and social benefit? Can a government run a business that way, without getting arbitrary and tyrannical? Can a co-op run a business that way? (I know some that do, here--and I know of some in Venezuela.) Although the rightwing in Venezuela focused on one managerial mistake in food distribution--some warehouses with rotting food--as an election "talking point," the government food distribution program has worked very well most of the time. The poor can buy greatly reduced price food in state stores. I visited Russia in 1972 and found the store shelves to be nearly empty. That was very shocking for an American. Our grocery stores are a kind of "food Heaven"--jampacked with sumptuous foods of every kind (and much too much packaging for Mother Earth). But we also have people struggling to put food on the table, many homeless people and millions of people with poor nutrition and consequent health problems. Is our food distribution all that great? Those with money can get what they want. The poor and the ignorant (including the ignorant well-to-do) don't get proper nutrition.

But, clearly, Russian communism was having trouble with state-run enterprises like food distribution. Someone told me that it was a gasoline and truck shortage, actually. And it was true on many goods and services. You could SEE it, everywhere. But I think we are talking about extremes here. That was heavily centralized communism. Chavez is a socialist and his government furthermore encourages decentralization in many ways--for instance, distributing funds to the community councils who decide what projects are needed in their specific community, with all the responsibility for designing and implementing the project for their community. The Chavez government also listens to workers, and invites worker in-put. I read accounts of long sessions with workers during the hydroelectric power crisis--with hydroelectric workers and workers from related industries.

The Chavez government doesn't seem at all inclined to dictate from above. In fact, some people have criticized them for taking too long to make decisions, and for not being strident enough socialists. They dictate to Exxon Mobil, et al. They don't dictate to their own people. And that is as it should be. Exxon Mobil and other rich investors and executives don't give a crap about Venezuela or its people. They just want the oil profit--all of it. Unfortunately, that has become our era's "business ethic." Take it all! To Hell with the workers who actually create the products and wealth.

I see a lot of good, positive trends in Venezuela. I don't see much on which to base a prediction of either dictatorship or failure. The Chavez government has been in power ten years. They've had their up's and down's, like any government. They have their unsolved problems, like any government. But they've mostly been steady on, through very tumultuous pressures, especially from the U.S. And their accomplishments--on poverty reduction, on education, on health care and on a good run of economic growth--are extraordinary.

So where does Zimbabwe even come into it? That just doesn't compute, with me. I don't see it all. I don't see it in Chavez, personally, with his open smile and jolly nature. I've watched him with other leaders and he seems quite content to just be one of them. He doesn't try to outshine anybody or dominate or bully. He has good friendships with other leaders. And when he talks to ordinary people, he seems unguarded and friendly and quite interested in them. He's part showman, for sure, but, at his core, he's happy and has a lot of good will. There is simply no comparison to Robert Mugabe, with his tight, closed face, and given the atrocities he has committed, and the wealth he has acquired.

Further, there is no hint of taint to Venezuela's elections, whereas in Zimbabwe, almost every election has been characterized by fraud--by Mugabe rigging it to stay in power. Venezuela has transparent, honest, aboveboard and internationally monitored elections. Chavez has NEVER rigged an election, as Robert Mugabe has done.

Zimbabwe has had a hell of a hard time, to be sure. It was Rhodesia, after all--the most viciously white racist colony in Africa. Since its relatively recent independence, Zimbabwe has suffered a huge HIV crisis and interference of the goddamn IMF which basically took an economy that was on an upward path and destroyed it.

There is no comparing Venezuela to Zimbabwe. Venezuela has a long history of democracy and labor and social movements. Zimbabwe has a history of kings and "ruling tribes" and several brutal wars with Portuguese and then British invaders, with extremely oppressive British and then white Rhodesian rule. Zimbabwe didn't achieve independence with majority black rule until 1980, after a long and difficult war against the minority white Rhodesians. At that time, the white 1% of the population owned 70% of the best farm land in the country.

Venezuelans have suffered colonialism, racism, U.S. domination and rule by the rich, but nothing like Zimbabwe. And their histories of dealing with these problems are entirely different. Venezuela has a vibrant political culture--more vibrant today than ever before--very inclusive with big voter turnouts. Zimbabwe basically has a monarchy, with rigged elections and low participation. Venezuela's land reform has been gentle, gradual and well thought out. Mugabe's land reform was brutal. Zimbabwe has very recent, brutal white racism coursing through peoples' psyches. Venezuela elected a president who is part Indigenous, part African-Venezuelan and part Spanish! There are vestiges of racism--nothing like in Zimbabwe.

There are, indeed, some bloody strains of social reform. Zimbabwe has suffered a variation of that. But we are never going to see that in Venezuela, nor the fanatical Maoist or Stalinist eruptions that we saw in China and Russia. It is just not in Venezuela's character, is not present in any form in Venezuela's history and is not evident in its current president or government--and it is extremely unfair to keep predicting "dictatorship/failed state," or saying "we'll see," and mentioning Zimbabwe, when the Chavez government has been in charge for ten years and there is no sign of it yet!

FDR is a much more apt comparison for Chavez. Turned the country around. Beat back the moneyed powers who had wrecked it. Directly rescued the poor. Created a "New Deal" for America's majority. Tried to create strong government structures and policies that "organized money" could not defeat. And kept getting elected--four times!

Robert Mugabe is in power through coercion, corruption and by monarchical tradition. Chavez is in power because most Venezuelans want him to be. There is no comparison.

And if you throw back the one-liner about Chavez befriending Mugabe, I will ask you who is the biggest friend of the U.S. in the Middle East besides Israel? The answer is the most oppressive tyranny in the Middle East and probably in the world--an overt absolute monarchy--Saudi Arabia. Anyway, who has killed more people--the "president" of Zimbabwe, or the "president" of the United States? National leaders rarely get to pick who they have to deal with, on an international level, in the interest of their country. The U.S. has, as "friends," Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE and Colombia (where thousands of trade unionists and other leftists have been murdered by the Colombian military and its death squads)--along with Uzbekistan (where the dictator is reported to have boiled his enemies to death). Venezuela has Zimbabwe, Iran and, um, lately, Colombia. Is the U.S. being "strategic" in its alliances while Venezuela is being evil? That's B.S. The U.S. also has Norway, Canada and Japan as "friends." Venezuela has Brazil, Argentina and Italy. The U.S. doesn't tend to criticize its "friends" or strategic partners. Neither does Venezuela.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. The Zimbabwe crack is a racist slur. Remember in South of the Border
Edited on Mon Nov-29-10 10:57 AM by EFerrari
Cristina says the new governments now look like the people? That's Evo's face is the face of Bolivia? That's what this @sshole is saying but to him and his class, it's a bad thing that the Venezuelan government no longer looks like Northern Europe.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. It is indeed exactly a racist slur. nt
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. So Chavez is considered a whackjob in diplomatic circles
They're more likely to have real-world experiences with the man and his diplomatic corps, so no surprise with that assessment.

If it waddles and quacks like a duck, it most likely is a duck.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. It's amazing what you can draw out from one racist statement.
Congratulations.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. What's the racist statement?
I missed that.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. My apologies to all the ducks in the world
for comparing them to Hugo.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hillary wanted info on Cristina's mental state



El Pais newspaper of Madrid had this gem in today's (Sunday) edition, with more details coming on Monday.

Mañana EL PAÍS ofrecerá detalles, por ejemplo, sobre las sospechas que la presidenta de Argentina, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, despierta en Washington, hasta el punto de que la Secretaría de Estado llega a solicitar información sobre su estado de salud mental.

Translation mine:

Tomorrow EL PAÍS will offer details, for example, about the suspicions that the president of Argentina, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, raised in Washington, to the point where the Secretary of State solicited information about her (Cristina) mental state.

------------------

You can bet that Cristina and Argentina will be most unhappy. Will check reaction in Buenos Aries tomorrow.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. That's so obnoxious. She's probably trying to figure out any weak areas
which could be exploited.

Cristina Fernandez is an exceptional person, not just exceptionally ambitious, like Hillary.

I think it's easy to see who's well balanced, all things considered.

Thanks, rabs.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Charming. n/t
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Probably jealousy
Stunning or what :



Hils has had a lot to contend with in the past. :rofl:

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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Didn't Argentina throw off the chains of the IMF & World Bank a while back?
That always pisses off the oligarchs.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. Guardian: Hillary Clinton questions Cristina Kirchner's mental health
Secret cable sent to US embassy in Argentina asks diplomats to find out how president handles stress

...
In a section headed "mental state and health" she asked how the first lady-turned president was managing "her nerves and anxiety" in a blunt tone which suggested US concerns.

"How does stress affect her behaviour toward advisers and/or her decision-making? What steps does Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner or her advisers/handlers take in helping her deal with stress? Is she taking any medications?

"Under what circumstances is she best able to handle stresses? How do Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner's emotions affect her decision-making and how does she calm down when distressed?"

The cable appeared to have been prompted by diplomatic spats which, according to the US embassy, showed Kirchner's government "to be extremely thin-skinned and intolerant of perceived criticism".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/29/hillary-clinton-cristina-kirchner-stress


The US ambassador is going to have to do a lot of apologising and handwaving about 'misunderstandings', I think.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
10. Jean-David Levitte, what a giant among men. :sarcasm, of course:
He says what he's told to say. Good grief. His comments about Brazil, not in keeping with reality, not by a long shot.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/media/images/46626000/jpg/_46626077_chavezlula_ap.jpg http://www.uncoverage.net.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Hugo-Chavez-and-Dilma-Rousseff.jpg

Presidents Luis Inacio Lula da Silva and Hugo Chavez, President-elect Dilma Rousseau and Hugo Chavez.

~~~~~

http://www.washingtonlife.com.nyud.net:8090/issues/2004-06/care/images/care_05.jpg

French Ambassador Jean-David
Levitte and his wife, Marie-Cécile

http://cdn.wn.com.nyud.net:8090/pd/4d/d2/6a69746f297c3a1fe8c910249f12_grande.jpg

Sitting across from Donald Rumsfeld, Bush's Secretary of Defense

http://cache.daylife.com.nyud.net:8090/imageserve/04tLepE6b3g9H/610x.jpg

http://www.defense.gov.nyud.net:8090/dodcmsshare/newsphoto/2005-05/050502-D-9880W-017_screen.jpg

Sitting across from Asst. Sec. of Defense, Paul Wolfowitz


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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
17. Many in Latin America are rejecting the oligarchs & taking back their countries
This does not please the oligarchs.
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