PSA: Reminder, Skip Gates' new series "Black in Latin America" tonight.

[EFerrari]

I don't have the hang of PBS. It's on here at 9pm (Pacific).

[flamingdem]

1. That was a well done program, next week the Cuba program, we shall see! nt

[Bacchus39]

2. interesting indeed, but they should add the words "an American's perspective" to the title n/t

s

[EFerrari]

3. It was interesting to see blackness is treated the same way in DR

as it is in El Salvador.

There was even a politician that used to whiten up his face with powder -- his nick name was "La Mica polveada". When my grandmother got angry with one of my cousins, she used to call him "el indio". My mom watched it, too.

[Bacchus39]

4. what?????? indio is perjorative term for "indigenous" in Central America

it has nothing to do with an "indio" from the DR in the context described in the documentary.

[flamingdem]

5. I thought that comment about Indio was confusing

I knew someone from the DR who said his mix included native caribbean, thus he used the term Indio.

Now I wonder if he was himself believing he was part native but that might have been a family story as cover up according to the documentary.

Puerto Ricans say they are mixed with native with confidence so I always believed it.

In Cuba it is similar. Some people are mixed with native, and sometimes people are called Indio because they look like they are mixed, but they're not.

In the DR it looks like a positive, in the sense of the colonial times, one was not as black if one was indio.... it is kind of similar in Cuba in the sense of it's a "compliment" that your skin is lighter or your features less African.

But in Cuba it is also a put down because the "Indios" are thought of as less educated - hicks essentially. There are populations in the East - Baraqoa - etc.

I'm not talking about educated people who say these things of course, it's not PC

[EFerrari]

7. I loved my grandmother but she was a huge snob and somewhat

racist. It was really interesting to see a picture of her mother, a lovely woman who looked like she was of native American extraction.

[Bacchus39]

9. Puertoricans have the same concept as Dominicans. the 2000 Census claimed over 80% white

now, from the American perspective I doubt people would agree with that number. however, that is the point. the Dominicans and Puertoricans perspective is different than the US.

[EFerrari]

6. No, it's used exactly as it was described in the DR

as a way to call someone "dark".

[Bacchus39]

8. well whatever, its also a perjorative for indigenous. it doesn't really apply that way in the

DR.

[flamingdem]

10. Ha, and it's used to Cuba to indicate someone is light! nt

[EFerrari]

11. LOL! Well, the thing is, it makes total sense that in some places

it would be a way to refer to black or darker people because African slaves married into native families so their children would be born free. It's more of an elision in that case than a misnomer.

My mom used to say the same thing that one man said about learning to be black in New York. Mami said she didn't know she wasn't white until she came here. lol :)

[Bacchus39]

12. it means indian, it certainly is a misnomer

an elision?????????????? WTF????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[EFerrari]

14. Yes, it's an elision of the way black African slaves

were incorporated into many native populations in Latin America. Blackness is everywhere but it's not always in the foreground for that reason, among others. That's how Mexican mariachis wound up with El son de la negra as their anthem.

[Bacchus39]

20. its a misnomer, it means indian as in from the country of India

there's probably not a better example of a misnomer than labeling the native americans as Indians. anyway, its not particularly flattering to use to people who are native people , while dominicans and apparently cubans have no issue with it since there are no more "indians" really.

[flamingdem]

22. They are generalists

everyone with Asian features is El Chino

[EFerrari]

24. Oh -- crinkly hair in ES is called "chinito".

lol

[Bacchus39]

26. native americans don't have "Indian" features

even with regards to skin color, you can distinguish Indian (from India) from either an indigena or from a latino (also known as ladino in C.A. to differentiate from the indigenas)

that being said, the misnomber is commonly applied as was pointed out in the documentary in the DR, also for the description of a girl in particular as being indiacita (she is trigue~na with black straight hair), and for indigenas which can be regarded as an insult and/or disrespectful.

[EFerrari]

28. American indigenous people call themselves Indians

and refer to Indian Country. Are you going to tell them they are wrong?

Yes, the word "indio" can be used as a racist insult but that is obviously only a small part of its linguistic value.

[Bacchus39]

31. its less common now, since it is in fact a misnomer thanks to Chris Colon

and its more insulting in latin america.

they don't call themselves indio. that was the name the Spanish gave to them. but if you want to go around calling native people Indios in latin america, go right ahead ladina.

[EFerrari]

33. No, it's not uncommon at all in Indian circles.

Like this one:

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/

And the use of the term is various in Latin America, up to and including appropriating the term the Spanish gave them for their own purposes.

And, the purpose of this discussion was to unpack why black people are called indios in the DR and in El Salvador, a fact that has eluded you entirely.

And, if you want to use racial epithets, I'm so sorry but the effort is wasted on me. :hi:

[Bacchus39]

36. seems like a pretty derogatory term in El Salvador, not like the DR at all

Ethnic Relations. Indians were at the bottom of the social hierarchy in colonial times and subject to massacre and exploitation well into the twentieth century. Ninety-seven percent of the population in El Salvador is now "mestizo." However, those who have more indigenous features suffer some discrimination and are referred to by the derogatory terms "indios" (Indians) or "negros" (blacks).


http://www.everyculture.com/Cr-Ga/El-Salvador.html


Culture of Guatemala - traditional, history, people, clothing, women, beliefs, food, customs, family
…ny purposes the descendants of the original inhabitants still prefer to identify themselves by the names of their specific language dialects, which reflect political divisions from the sixteenth century. The pejorative terms indio and natural have been replaced in polite conversation and publication by Indígena . Persons of mixed or non-indigenous race and heritage may be called Ladino , a term that today indicates adherence to Western, as opposed to…
http://www.everyculture.com/Ge-It/Guatemala.html

[EFerrari]

37. It can be a derogatory term when used by white people

just as the n word is here.

It's not necessarily derogatory when it is used inside the group. My favorite uncle calls his wife "negra" and "indita" and it's an endearment.

You really can't assess the cultural connotation of a word if you only go by its use by the dominant group.

[Bacchus39]

38. so its not really the same as in the DR is it???

looks like the links corroborate my experience. now are the 97% who are mestizos "white" or are only "white" people white? make sure we are on the same page here. but it seems like it is a recognized insult by Salvadoreans when used in a certain way. either to demean someone by calling them an "indio", or demeaning an indigenous person by using the misnomer indio.

white people can say negrita indiacita as a term of endearment too. I've had plenty of latina friends and girl friends and called them negrita too. and its usually directed at those who are NOT black.

contrast with the DR and indio is not an insult at all. its completely different, just as what black means to a Dominican and what black means to an American. the whole point of saying indio is to differentiate from being "black" like a Haitian.

[EFerrari]

39. If you go up the class ladder in the DR, you'll find

that the word can become pejorative.

But, it is possible that the word is more commonly used as an insult in El Salvador than in the DR because of the (imo) unbelievable racism there.

Last night I was struck by the similarities -- black people being called "indios", the president who whitened his face with power just as Castaneda did in El Salvador in the 40s and that photograph of beauty queens who were all white just like the pictures we have here of one contest my aunt was in in the early 50s - it might as well have been Sweden. No doubt there are differences, too.

[flamingdem]

40. How about "negron", in Cuba there are so many terms

it's a sport to discuss race there.

I think these terms ares slippery and usage changes with zone and over time.

What is PC to a university educated Cuban might not be PC to Henry, we'll see if he connected in Cuba.

I am still not sure I believe that people aren't mixed in DR with native like they are in PR.

They look different from Cubans who mostly lack that element in their mix.

[Bacchus39]

41. well, we can end on a point of agreement then

its interesting and looking forward to seeing more. I still wonder if Gates is going to be able to reconcile that being black in latin america doesn't necessarily have the same connotation as being black in the US.

[flamingdem]

42. It's an eye opener for most, but difficult to get across nt

[EFerrari]

43. We could probably fill one of those big Crayola crayon boxes

with all the different meanings and attitudes.

lol

Seriously, even if Gates gets it wrong, it will be great to see it aired out for once.

[flamingdem]

44. If he gets into the term "niche" then we going somewhere!

Niche is like n*gger but not. It's full of gray and not such a hot potato but we'll see if he ventures near that.. chances are he won't deal with language.

I expect him to take the boring route, but we'll get to see some good shots of santeria ceremonies!

Let me tell you if he doesn't get this he didn't stay long enough. Cuba is Africa, in fact many African
religious rituals were maintained in Cuba while they were wiped out in Africa, religious leaders came to
Cuba to learn them again.

It's so fascinating to learn just how many tribes-or quasi still practice their religion there, speak at least
remnants of the original language or the new lucumi version after arrival language..

I think this was the number one thing that blew my mind about the place, it's a repository of culture
partly because of the lack of capitalist expansion.

You can find that or not but it's all right here, multiple ceremonies always going on in every part of
Havana, people know who they are even what tribe they are from sometimes, more in el campo I think,it's
totally different from here, identities are more solid, whites are more africanized there and many are
fully into the religion. The religion is in the popular music and it's a sign of pride and the white
singers know the lucumi, palo, congo, yoruba words.

[EFerrari]

45. The things that are "all right there" but mostly unnoticed

are the ones that interest me the most.

Skip Gates was pretty out there when he first started publishing. Let's see how he does. :)

[flamingdem]

46. I'll look into that about Gates

just to get a sense of where he'll go with it.

Looks like it's just in time for what looks like major changes in Cuba, the want to be tourists will be very interested in this show.

[EFerrari]

47. As an English grad, this was my intro to him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Signifying_Monkey

[EFerrari]

23. The words people use to describe themselves are not "wrong". n/t

[Bacchus39]

27. exactly, and indigenas don't call themselves indios

and dominicans can call themselves white or Spanish or indio too.


and its not up to an American to go around determining what being black means.

and indio is a misnomer

p.s. lol

[EFerrari]

29. Whooooooooooooooooosh.

[flamingdem]

30. Go to Trinidad if you really want to mess with the Indio/Indian term!

Of course you'll see a huge Indian and Indian mix community there, best curry anywhere.

[Bacchus39]

32. Thailand was pretty good, quite a few Indios there too n/t

s

[flamingdem]

13. In Cuba that's known as Jabao

You can pass for white but have tendencies, hair a feature etc. that are African genotope, I think that was the word used in the doc

It can be pretty bad in Cuba where on one hand a person is proud of their traces of Africa on the other hand almost ashamed if seen as white.

I'm thinking of a singer I know who was obsessed with his hair. Another one used powder to lighten his skin on stage. At the same time they wouldn't give up their african rooted traditions/ceremonies or music ever.

I learned that at least with people of color that mulatto is the pride of Cuba in terms of beauty. That means product of white and black. Black and mulato mix or white and mulato mix is NOT as good, not the REAL THING!

There are names for every possible mixture and then some. They used to put this description in the Carne de identidad, a bit disturbing to see that.

[EFerrari]

16. It's so complicated, isn't it?

My grandfather's passport said "Laudino" and I'm still not clear what that is. lol

My experience is mainly with El Salvador and Mexico. The racism against dark skin in El Salvador was nauseating. Mexico seems to celebrate its mixed heritage in a way that I've never seen in El Salvador, although it's been many years since I was there myself.

[flamingdem]

15. Interesting point, I wonder if intermarriage brought freedom to blacks in Cuba

if they married indigenous not just white - In Cuba blacks could buy their freedom and their status would change from black to white, imagina

[EFerrari]

17. So wild. The crazy dictator my grandad worked for

put in a law forbidding the entry of black people to El Salvador for a while. And my mami said she never saw a black person until she came here to California although both her father and her brother had "black" hair. Imagina. :)

[flamingdem]

18. My buddy from El Salvador had a Lebanese black looking dad, very curly hair

when they moved to Los Angeles his brother got in trouble in racial incidents with blacks.

Some issues there I don't really understand about animosity between Central Americans and blacks.

My buddy was tall and played basketball with the blacks at the gym and they made him an honorable black.

I used to tease him about his inner African but he didn't like that..

[EFerrari]

19. The tension seems to me expressed in racial terms

but at bottom, maybe it's about poverty, class and how the two groups were used as mules for La CIA. Remember, the IranContra @ssholes dumped crack in Maxine Waters' district, for example? Same IranContra bastards drove a fifth of the population of El Salvador up here.

My mom says Mubarak looks like her father and that if we're five or six drop sisters, it's because of the Moors in Spain. :rofl:

[flamingdem]

21. The note about blacks in the history of El Salvador

is interesting and might also be a factor.

My buddy was very "revolutionary" so it's not like he doesn't know about oppression, I think he learned the attitude there and it was just not something he had to examine.

Another term for those who look like Mubarak in Cuba "Moro"...;)

I was in a bar and kind of shocked when someone yelled MORO and the waiter with his wavy black hair knew to look.

[EFerrari]

25. LOL. "Hay moros en la costa" is an expression my family uses.

And all Arabs were "Turkos".

It would be so much fun to collect stories about how people explain color in Latin America. I'd give an arm to have worked on Skip Gates' project.

[flamingdem]

34. Me too. I knew I'd love it even if there were mistakes

We'll see next week. I am sure that they will make errors, already it looks like they went to the politically correct hip hop community to explain race, bad idea! They learned to much from the USA.

They need to talk to people on the street about race, that would create a scene it is a favorite topic there but they are NOT PC! They would mess up his mind way too much, they probably did... Wait until a white Cuban puts her arm around him and says mi lindo negrito! he he he

What does "Hay moros en la costa" mean? Sounds like there are problems on the horizon or similar

[EFerrari]

35. It's like "little pitchers have big ears" --

a way to say someone is eavesdropping so, be careful what you say. But it seems to refer to raids on the Spanish coast.

It will be interesting to see how far away from PC Gates manages to get. :)