Why do Obama's critics think they own the rights to the label "progressive"

[ProSense]

It's the most bizarre thing. Critic = progressive. Anyone who disagrees with them isn't progressive.

There were people calling Bernie Sanders a sellout because he voted for the Senate bill.

I'm a progressive, but I also live in the real world, where times are hard and people want progress.

All the noise: Obama is a corporatists, center-right, a sellout, a liar, a failure---is utter bullshit.

Obama is one of the most, if not the most, progressive Presidents ever.

Take a look at your own Senators and Represenatatives, if they aren't as progressive as the ideas you're pushing, you've got work to do.

If they support the Senate bill to your disapproval, you've got work to do.

[Clio the Leo]

1. and "base." NT

[unc70]

83. "Why are most progressives critical of Obama?" is real question.

ProseNonsense keeps trying to stir the pot and divert the discussions, but that isn't going so swimmingly lately -- more like trying to swim against the tide. And really obvious to everyone.

[dkf]

2. Obama doesn't call himself a progressive. He calls himself a moderate.

And progressive is the Term used in place of the dreaded L word.

[ProSense]

4. Right

That's why everyone is spinning crap trying to redefine him using all the labels in the OP?


It's nonsense. He is, regardless of the noise, progressive.

[tridim]

Add up all the vectors and he's a solid progressive.

Social progress is basically what his whole presidency is about.

[dkf]

44. I don't see an agenda that will decrease poverty or create jobs beyond saving state employees.

The whole green jobs idea sounds like more wishful thinking

[jenmito]

9. Where's a quote of him calling himself a moderate? n/t

[Enrique]

40. "I am a New Democrat"

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=254931&kaid=85&subid=900184

President Barack Obama firmly resists ideological labels, but at the end of a private meeting with a group of moderate Democrats on Tuesday afternoon, he offered a statement of solidarity.

"I am a New Democrat," he told the New Democrat Coalition, according to two sources at the White House session.

The group is comprised of centrist Democratic members of the House, who support free trade and a muscular foreign policy but are more moderate than the conservative Blue Dog Coalition.

[ProSense]

48. An unsourced quote from a Politico article?

Also, what exactly does that mean?

[Phx_Dem]

72. I consider progressive to be left of liberal.

When I do surveys or polls they usually have 3 categories for Dems: Moderate, Liberal, Progressive.

I'm a liberal and do not consider myself a progressive because in my mind progressive means "far left," in the same way "far right" or "neocon" is further to the right than "conserative" in the GOP.

But I suppose everyone has a different view of what progressive is.

:shrug:

[niyad]

3. you forgot the sarcasm icon again

[ProSense]

6. It wasn't sarcasm. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

5. IBTL

NGU.

[ProSense]

7. What? n/t

[NanceGreggs]

8. I posted this earlier ...

... in response to someone on this topic:

"There is a group of people on this board who seem to believe they are the self-appointed arbiters of who are liberal/progressives and who are not - according to an ever-changing set of criteria they themselves have established.

The main criteria is a simple one: If you agree with us, you're a liberal/progressive. If you don't, you're not."

[Armstead]

10. That works both ways

[firedupdem]

11. +1 n/t

[jenmito]

12. I'd change the last part to, "If you don't, you're a Corporatist."

I hear that all the time here.

[ClassWarrior]

15. That's true. But "a group of people" is far different...

...than a broad brush dismissal of an entire swath of fellow DUers.

NGU.

[NanceGreggs]

16. Yuppers.

That's why I said "a group of people".

[ClassWarrior]

17. And that's why your analysis is correct, and the OP's is...

...divisive flamebait.

NGU.

[ProSense]

18. Don't be ridiculous. There is no mention of anyone but critics in the OP. n/t

[NanceGreggs]

21. To describe this OP as "divisive flamebait" ...

... in view of what's being posted here of late is laughable - and very sadly so.

[ClassWarrior]

27. So because it's only relatively divisive, it's okay?

And that makes all the vitriol it's going to attract (and already has begun to attract) okay too?

NGU.

[NanceGreggs]

50. To be perfectly candid, ClassWarrior ...

... nothing is "okay" here right now, IMHO.

Attracting vitriol? What isn't?

I swear to God that if I posted an OP about how cute kittens are, I'd be flamed for being a puppy-hater.

To paraphrase a line from M*A*S*H: "This isn't a website - this is an insane asylum!"

I'm outta here until sanity returns.

Hope to see you again, after the smoke clears :hi:

[ProSense]

20. It's interesting that you chose to post this here

when there is no such reference in the OP. Yet you ignore another thread that clearly makes such a reference.

[HughMoran]

77. sadly, it's that simple

"You're either wit' us or agin' us." "We have peace signs or Dean avatars - why aren't you locksteppers as good at lockstepping as we are?"

[Armstead]

13. This is my response from to your post in my Liberal thread

Critics of the bill don't necessarily expect everyone who is a progressive to agree. But when supporters of it start saying that critics are "too far left" or ideological purists, then it sounds a hell of a lot like you are mistaking ideology with the issue yourselves.

Critics also live in the real world, and we believe that in the real world this HCR bill will be bad on a pragmatic level. FDeel free to disagree, but don't confuse those pragmatic objections to some ideological crusade.

People have every right to be disappointed and angry with Obama's performance -- just as people have every right to be happy with him. But don't demand lockstep blind support. You think we like feeling this way? Does it ever cross your mind that after eight years of GOP Hell, we might prefer to be able to feel good about a Democratic president? Does it ever cross your mind that some of us hoped for better in terms of his performance and stance on issues?

We're not all Yes we're critical, but venting on a message board is not the same as trying to "bring him down." Does it ever cross your mind that some of us are critical of him but are still hoping that he'll justify our earlier faith in him?

[Zenlitened]

84. Well said. - n/t

[IndianaGreen]

14. I see you are winning hearts and minds, just as Obama's drone attacks are

Keep up the good work!

[David Zephyr]

71. LOL.

Drone attacks. Brilliant! :)

[Clio the Leo]

19. Well, here's a handy dandy little quiz....

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/03/progressive_quiz.html

I got a 347 out of 400 or "extremly progressive." Granted that's compared to Americans as a whole where the average score is 209 out of 400.

I think some of us might score a 700 out of 400. :)

I think I'll do it again answering the questions as I presume the President would ... see if he scores higher than me. lol

There's a graph at the end you can click on to see where your score ranks among other groups ..... it says the "liberal Democrats" scored 247 (the highest ranking group) and "Obama 2008 voters" 244. "Progressives" scored 237, which doesn't make sense to me, but that's what it says.

[Kaleva]

22. I scored 240 out of 400.

[dflprincess]

23. 374 (nt)

[Kaleva]

26. I'm probably at the low end compared to many here.

[Armstead]

31. 305

[Undercurrent]

32. 361

I view myself as an pragmatic, solid Democrat from a strong Democratic, and Union family.

For example: I don't support all that's in either the Senate, or the House health care bills. I'm sure I'll feel the same about the merged bill that comes out of the Conference Committee. I want it to pass.

[nevergiveup]

38. I scored 356

and I believe the final passage of the HCR bill would be a huge victory for progressives. There must be something wrong with me.

[Undercurrent]

46. You and me both.

;-)

[MerryBlooms]

52. 378/400

I'm surprised, I thought I was just a regular Dem, come to find out, I'm a radical lefty and should probably be on some watch list somewhere. heh

[unc70]

82. "Should be" on some watch list? Why any doubt?

Just being at DU is probably enough to earn you a spot on the lists. Associating with known radicals, trouble makers, demonstrators, potential terrorists, Quakers, activists, humanitarians, liberals, libertines, libertarians, vegetarians, contrarians, librarians, and even Party members -- just the worst sorts of people. The enemies within. So watch your step.

[Jamastiene]

63. 371 was my score.

"extremely progressive"

Generally speaking, here on DU, there are some people who do not know the definition of the word in a political sense. I have seen several more conservative people here base their claim to the label "progressive" based on a nonpolitical definition of the word instead of by the political definition of the word.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

64. 339........

Extremely Progressive.

[CBR]

68. 339 nt.

[DisgustedInMN]

69. 364 n/t

[andym]

70. You should post this as a poll in both GD and GDP

So we can get a feel where DU members stand.
What I mean is post a link to the Amerucan Progress Poll and then DU members can anonymously (or not) show the score distribution.

For example,
under 200
200-220
221-240
241-260
261-280
281-300
301-320
321-340
341-360
361-380
381-400

If you don't want to, I'll be happy to post it. I'm very curious. I got a 334 and that seems low compared to what others are reporting on this thread. What is clear from the preliminary "results" is that DU is far to the left of the average self-identified Liberal/Progressive American.

[racaulk]

73. 373/400 here.

:hi:

[andym]

76. I took the liberty of creating a poll for GD based on your link.

hope you don't mind....
I think we'll see that DU is an extremely progressive place.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7349242

[HughMoran]

79. I got 340/400 or "Extremely Progressive"

Of course on DU I'm the favorite name of the week by people who call themselves 'progressive'.

Since progressives should be accepting of others by nature, those who like to categorize and name-call (to suppress opinions they don't like) are surely political, but NOT progressive.

[noamnety]

24. I think of progressive as left of and below center in this chart:

[TheKentuckian]

25. The leftier than thou folks ain't talkin' 'bout much

but don't pretend everybody with some problems with how things are going down fits neatly into this camp. I've been called a cheerleader/bot as much as almost anyone that seems like they think all is going swimingly.

Obama would have more room on health care and the obstructionist would be catching more hell if he wasn't rolling over for the corporate communists. He damn straight should be going to the mat to reign in the bankers but he seems adverse to rocking the boat.

It looks bad, from my perspective. It seems he is unwilling, unable, or disinterested in putting any leash on corporate power and influence. There is no sense running scared from the socialist meme when you're going to get hit with it even if you emulate Reagan to a tee.

[Armstead]

30. If you believe corporations have too much power and should be reined in....

then you might be a lefty yourself.

C'mon in the water's fine. :)

But actually, I think a lot of moderates and even many grass-roots conservatives believe the same thing. That's why I don't think it's just a "left" position to hold corporations accountable and balance them with policy that protects and advances the larger public interest.

[TheKentuckian]

34. Oh, I'm a pretty good lefty, I just don't get the pissing contest aspect that goes on here

or the purity contests.

Shit, I care about poverty deeply, I'm all about public education, I constantly call for all utilities to be nationalized, I'm a nut for individual and civil rights, I'm a social libertarian, I'm not adverse to a NHS much less single payer, I'd probably bankrupt the country to get to clean renewable energy, and I'd kill corporate personhood in well under a millisecond.

For an American in Kentucky, I'm well to tht left of Chairman Mao but I see no reason to be an idiot or an asshole about it.

[burning rain]

28. If you criticize someone from the left, you naturally consider yourself progressive relative to him.

If you criticize someone from the right, you probably see yourself as more conservative than him. It isn't terribly complex.

[depakid]

29. The reality is based on objective review of policies and actions

as opposed to sycophantry and spin.

On the whole, Obama and the administration (and even moreso- the US Senate) represents center right- and corporate positions and interests.

That's just how it is- based on the record.

[ProSense]

33. It's nonsense.

People constantly stating opinions as fact.

[depakid]

35. Progressive positions on the issues aren't "opinion"

and the record is there on issue after issue for everyone to see.

That's one reason why some of us weren't surprised about many of the nominees or administration policies.

Indeed, one of Obama's first votes in the Senate foreshadowed some of the actions people have been disappointed with over the last year.

Summary on that here (from 2006):

As Obama-mania sweeps across the land and has Democrats everywhere buzzing, I find myself a bit wary of it all. Not that I'm a single-issue voter, but when it comes to civil justice issues, Illinois senator Barack Obama is a bust. His willingness to buy the corporate line about class action "reform" last year prevents me from joining the hallelujah chorus.

The 2005 Class Action Fairness Act (CAFA), a pet cause of George W. Bush, essentially forced most state consumer class actions into the backlogged and Republican dominated federal courts. Like the bankruptcy bill before it, class action reform was a special interest extravaganza, with the insurance, credit card, banking, pharmaceutical and auto industries hiring so many lobbyists that there was nearly one for every member of Congress. (You can read more about some of the chicanery involved in selling CAFA in my book.)

Obama's state was also the focus of intense media campaigns surrounding the bill sponsored by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. But when the bill came up for a vote, Obama's fellow Illinois democrat, Sen. Dick Durbin, didn't cave. Potential presidential rival Hillary Clinton voted against the bill. Even John Kerry, who went on national television during the 2004 presidential debates and said, "John Edwards and I support tort reform," voted against this bill.

http://www.thetortellini.com/2006/12/obamas_anticons.html

[ProSense]

37. Neither is spin. Speaking of records

can you point the the less than progressive issue here and here?

These are the things that are going to define Obama's legacy. He has in fact, done more for progressives than any recent President.

[depakid]

47. All you ever do is spin- and worse- repeat whatever the spin of the day is

irrespective of what you may have written months- or even weeks before.

The record in your own posts, which is clear for anyone to see- is one that's devoid of any personal, heartfelt position (or value) other than your devotion to the administration- and before that, the candidate.

It's apparently your raison d'etre.

And while the reverse is also true of some who post on DU- that they rarely is ever agree with administration policy or strategy, tactics and procedure, that doesn't make it any less sad to see.

[ProSense]

55. What a joke

The record in your own posts, which is clear for anyone to see- is one that's devoid of any personal, heartfelt position (or value) other than your devotion to the administration- and before that, the candidate.

Translate: if it isn't anti-Obama bullshit, it's void of value. The critics are the ones obsessed with the administration: Obama and Rahm are responsible for everything.

Laughable.

[Oregone]

36. Don't you have articles to cut and paste?

Wow. Original content.

[ProSense]

39. "cut and paste" = I disagree with what you posted.

Why don't all the people using this as a distraction ever complain about those frequently posting conspiracy and bogus articles from less than credible sources?

[Oregone]

49. No, it means you just regurgitate copyrighted material verbatim

But cute straw-man you got there

[ProSense]

56. Evidently, you also don't know what you're talking about. n/t

[Enrique]

41. do you find something wrong with Obama being a centrist?

at some point the loyalists will have to make up their mind about Obama. Continue to deny he's a centrist, or admit he's a centrist and defend centrism.

[LoZoccolo]

42. Recommended. n/t

[AVID]

43. K&R

[ZombieHorde]

45. How would you define the label, "progressive?" nt

[boppers]

51. "Holier than thou" is part of every social scene.

This scene is no different.

[VMI Dem]

53. Sorry, can't reconcile being bigoted with being a progressive.

Guess you can.

[cali]

54. huh? I have no idea what you're attempting to say? care to be more explicit?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

57. I'm not altogether certain that Obama is a Progressive....

at least not in the clinical definition of the term, and I'm not sure Obama himself would claim to be one.

But is he more progressive than Bush? Duh...
Is he more progressive than Clinton? Remains to be seen - I'd call it a draw for now.
Is he more progressive than Reagan/Bush? Duh, Part II...
Is he more progressive than Carter? Likely not, but it's a model to aspire to.
Is he more progressive than Nixon/Ford? Yes (but not a Duh - Nixon was not all bad).
Is he more progressive than Kennedy or LBJ? +1 on Medicare, -1 on Vietnam. Hard to tell.

So if Obama fulfills even MOST of his stated agenda, I think he's going to be remembered as a genuinely progressive president. Regardless of how we label him today.

[ima_sinnic]

58. I thought "centrist" was the meme du jour. Now the centrists are co-opting "progressive"?

what's next, he's a "Marxist"?

give me a friggin break. No progressive ever defended making "suspected" "terrorists" legal nonentities stripped of even their basic human rights. No true progressive was NOT a fierce advocate of a single-payer health care plan, or at least a diehard advocate of a "public option." He is whatever he needs to be at the moment, whatever is politically expedient. He's not a conservative, centrist, or progressive, but a chameleon. And there are no truly progressive people in his cabinet, either.

[niceypoo]

60. Lieberman is a centrist

Baucus is a centrist. Centrist = conservadem

[IndianaGreen]

81. Lieberman is a reactionary crypto-fascist

He would be considered a centrist in Mussolini's Fascist Party.

[niceypoo]

59. Change doesnt come through bowing and scraping

Change doesn't come from automatically marching in lockstep. Change comes from take a stand. Change comes from holding feet to the fire. Republicans march in lockstep and their positions never change.

[ima_sinnic]

61. currently, just below this in GDP: "Under the radar, Obama pushes for Patriot Act renewal"

any more questions?

[ProSense]

66. From that thread

this and this.

Any questions?

[Jamastiene]

62. Delete - posted in wrong place

[WeDidIt]

65. Jane Hamsher is a rightwingnut who joined with racists

She certainly cannot call herself a "progressive".

[TheKentuckian]

92. To be fair she is a leftwing nut that joined with racists, anti-labor assholes, torture lovers, and

general fucktards.

I don't really think she holds the same ideals at all but is experiencing something akin to bloodrage.

That doesn't defend her utter foolishness and tactics and she should be accountable and smacked down some because she looks to lift the Confederates in a whackadoodle effort to scuttle a really bad bill. My principle issie is that the suckiness of the bill stands on it's own without joining hip to hip with the worst elements of our society.

[NJmaverick]

67. Thanks for pointing the false framing that is frequently employed

[Major Hogwash]

74. Try to sell this boolshit to Bill Moyers!!! Then throw him under the Obama bus.

Because the Obama bus can't get outta the ditch.

[Armstead]

78. Yes bad bad Bill Moyers.....He's about due for the gulliotine too

[freddie mertz]

75. Beats the terms you use. nt.

[grahamhgreen]

80. My rep is John Lewis - he agrees with almost every thing I say. Obama is F-ing up in a major way.

[LWolf]

85. I don't.

I'm a critic, and I don't call myself "progressive," or think that I "own the rights" to the label.

The label is meaningless.

Technically, anyone can be a "progressive," if they support "progress" on ANY agenda. It doesn't have to be "liberal" or "left."

For example, the dlc's think tank is "The Progressive Policy Institute."

And way too many "centrists" milk the term "progressive." They can legitimately claim to be "progressive," because they have an agenda that they are working to move forward. They can legitimately call their candidates and favored elected officials "progressive" if they favor those "centrist" agendas.

There doesn't have to be anything liberal or left about it.

I'm not interested in supporting "progressive" politics.

I'm interested in supporting left-of-center politics.

Two different things.

[Armstead]

86. believe it's more accurate to say "center left" politics

This may be knit-picking,but IMO there is much that is considered "left" (liberal and progressive) in current political discussion that is completely mainstreram and in the truie center of the spectrum.

The "center" is not as conservative as the media and the elites would like us to believe.

[LWolf]

87. Maybe.

The "center" keeps shifting, depending on who is defining "center," and reflecting actual right-ward shifts in the nation.

What do you consider "left" in the current political discussion?

[Armstead]

88. Personally I think "the center" is really big -- and "left" depends on who's discussing

To be honest, I increasingly believe the whole notion of left and right is becoming obsolete.

In the framework set by the mainstram media and the corporate and political elites, what is called "moderate" or "centrist" is very narrow, and ultimately conservative. In that context, a moderate liberal like Howard Dean is considered a madman from the far-left.

In the larger world of real people,I think most individuals are a mix of left and right, depending on the isssue. I believe that truly "pragmatic" solutions can incorporate what might be called conservative ideas and liberal ideas in various mixes.

Ragarding the current issue on the table, I believe the "center" is somewhat to the left. I think most people feel ripped off by the private insurance system, and would support an increased role of government in strictly regulatinbg them and/or offering at least the option of a public insurance system available to everyone.

[LWolf]

89. I agree with most of that.

Except the part about the "center" of the health care debate being to the left.

At this point, it's not about care. It's about insurance, and that puts it to the right, imo.

[dionysus]

90. i hate the term progressive. reclaim the word "liberal" people...

[freddie mertz]

91. Would you describe your views as progressive?

Cause I have no idea what they might be on any issue, other than that you will apparently support (over and over, with endless threads an links) anything the current president says or does, and relentlessly attack any critic, regardless of the content or veracity of that criticism.

Really, that is the only profile for you that I have, so far.