Why the most vehement critics of the bill will never be taken seriously

[ProSense]

They will never acknowledge that there is anything good in the Senate bill. It's completely worthless, accordingly.

They cannot accept the benefits in the bill described by Dean (yes, Dean), Sanders, Kerry, Feingold, Rockefeller, Boxer, Harkin, Franken, Krugman, no one.

A robust public option would be better (IMO, even better than Medicare for all), but it isn't included even in the House bill. The bills have their pluses and minuses, but they represent a huge step forward.

The most vehement critics refuse to acknowledge that, and some go even further to advocate that the bills are worse than the status quo.

[ClassWarrior]

1. IBTL

NGU.

[Cha]

39. Yeah, NGU..and I'll NGU

on our President.:)

[Armstead]

2. never taken seriiously by you, that's for sure -- Because you don't bother to read and listen

[Cha]

38. Geeze your insults sound like you're talkin' to yourself. Poor thing.

[Armstead]

42. Yeah,yeah,yeah.....Oh gosh you really stung me that time.

[Cha]

43. As I"m sure you "stung" Pro Sense.

[Armstead]

44. You're probably correct on that

The stupid "I'm rubber you're glue" back and forth is ultimately rather meaningless on all sides.

[Jamastiene]

3. Your OP is too negative.

Quite a few of us have posted that we see parts of the bill that could be good. I guess you missed that.

If you are trying to sell a product, which is what this bill is, I hardly think lumping all opponents into a broad brushed category will help sell it.

[ProSense]

5. Most vehement critics, which is also qualified, is not broad brushed. n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

4. Speaking of refusing to acknowledge things

You folks that keep posting the same, tired old talking points about why we should love this bill PERPETUALLY refuse to address the fact that insurance companies have no intention of playing fairly or honestly in regard to ANY of the provisions in this bill. NOT A SINGLE aspect of the bill that you folks offer as progress is really progress becuase the insurance companies will simply circumvent them if they cut into their profit and excessive executive compensation packages. No, I think it you folks that are refusing to acknowledge the truth of this bill.

[ProSense]

7. ". NOT A SINGLE aspect of the bill that you folks offer as progress is really progress " Progress:

The Senate bill includes $10 billion for community health centers, state exchanges and this:

More Health Insurance Choices

• Multi-state option. Health insurance carriers will offer plans under the supervision of the Office of Personnel Management, the same entity that oversees health plans for Members of Congress. At least one plan must be non-profit, and the plans will be available nationwide. This will promote competition and choice.
  
  
• Free choice vouchers. Workers who qualify for an affordability exemption to the individual responsibility policy but do not qualify for tax credits can take their employer contribution and join an exchange plan.

PDF

President Obama began ramping up funding for community health centers in March:

Community Health Centers

• Obama says $155m in health funding means jobs, too
  
  
• President Obama Announces Recovery Act Awards to Build, Renovate Community Health Centers in More Than 30 States

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

13. Assuming facts not in evidence....

Your entire argument is based on the notion that some way and some how, the insurance companies are going to cheat the system. This is an assumption that is not based on any specific evidence and, in fact, there is ample evidence to the contrary.

Under the Medicare system, corporations committing fraud have received multi-million dollar fines and individuals (including physicians) have received actual jail time. I work for a healthcare provider, and we take compliance issues VERY seriously because we know the consequences for even an unintentional violation of the law.

This antipathy that some people on this board have toward large corporations is perplexing to me. I assume that you have internet service from a corporation and that when you pay your heating bill next month, the money will go to a corporation. In fact, unless you're the Uni-Bomber's next-door neighbor, chances are that most of the money you spend in the course of a day is going (directly or indirectly) to a corporation.

[MNDemNY]

15. No, it's not the "fraud", it is the built-in pro industry loop holes.

For instance: a ban on UNREASONABLE annual caps. that one is so big you could drive a tank through it. And they will.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

17. Unless the loophole gets closed....

Again you're operating under the assumption that there won't be political pressure brought to bear on those areas that need to be fixed.

[MNDemNY]

24. And you are "operating under the assumption" that the industry will play fair.

Which one seems more likely???(and only a true corporatist would say that the industry will "play fair".)

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

29. Wrong.

If adequate regulations aren't built into the conference bill, then it's likely the corporations will exploint any loopholes (intentional or otherwise) contained in the final legislation. Those people who are effected start raising hell to get the loophole closed. Depending on the nature of the loophole, it might be possible for DHHS to close it administratively without an act of Congress.

Medicare is a Public Option, which a lot of people want, and there is fraud in Medicare. Do we eliminate any policy where there is a chance for fraud?

[MNDemNY]

30. You are why too trusting of corporations and those who regulate them.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

34. Wrong Again.

Let me repeat. I fully expect that the insurance companies will attempt to exploit loopholes. It's our job (and the job of our government) to close these loopholes as they appear.

[MNDemNY]

35. Would it not make more sense to "close" them BEFORE passing this turd?

Or is that just silly? Sorry pal, your constant shilling of this shit-pile leads me to believe that your only motive is to chalk up a "victory" for this administration. All you seem to care about is a big Rose Garden bill signing."We'll fix it later" is the most ridiculous argument ever. It sounds like Bush saying "trust me"!:rofl:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

41. Read the original post

Anything that doesn't get fixed in conference needs to get fixed afterward.

I can't help but wonder if you're deliberately misreading and misunderstanding me. I mean, if you're allowed to question my motives, I suppose I should be allowed to question why you're encouraging the same result (defeat the bill) as Glen Beck and the RNC.

I'll admit to shilling for Obama any day -- I'm totally in the tank for my Democratic President.

So why are you shilling for Grover Norquist?

[joeprogressive]

6. Vehement critic, acknowledge some good in bill

How about you acknowledge that this was a huge blunder and this bill gives more power to insurance companies.

[MNDemNY]

14. The entrenchment of "power to the insurance companies" is why this bill is worse than nothing.

The long term effects of this blatant corporatist legislation is hard to fathom. Next stop: privatization of "public schools" ..This is already starting under the guise of "charter schools" and "vouchers"...touted by our "Democratic" President. gobama?


If folks wish to espouse the virtues of the corporatist system, they should do it openly, not under cover as self-professed" "progressives", which they are not.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

8. There is definitely some good in the bill - The national High Risk Pool

community health centers, a non-profit plan on the exchange if and when that comes to exist in 3 or 4 years.

We will all know in good time whether the reform increased coverage and lowered costs for the majority of Americans which was supposed to be the intended result. It will be judged by that great American standard "What's in it for me?".

If more Americans find themselves with affordable choices ("affordable" being the operative word) then great. Obama's legacy and the Democrats are secure.

If on the other hand, more Americans find their benefits eroded and their co-pays and decuctables going up coinciding with a raise in taxes, then all hell will break lose.

As much as I fervently wish for the positive outcome, I am afraid of the lesser outcome and its consequences.

[ProSense]

9. Agree:

If more Americans find themselves with affordable choices ("affordable" being the operative word) then great. Obama's legacy and the Democrats are secure.

If on the other hand, more Americans find their benefits eroded and their co-pays and decuctables going up coinciding with a raise in taxes, then all hell will break lose.

Given the community health centers, non-profit plan, opt-out vouchers, Medicaid expansion, I don't think all hell will break lose.

[Armstead]

18. I can just see those working class people who will have a chance to "go on Medicaid" cheering

"You're real insurance is now unaffordable, but now you can get the medical equivalent of food stamps."

That's going to go over real big among hard working people to whom financial self-sufficiency is a core value.

[ProSense]

21. More speculation. n/t

[Armstead]

22. yes speculation, unlike this

"Given the community health centers, non-profit plan, opt-out vouchers, Medicaid expansion, I don't think all hell will break lose."

[ProSense]

26. So you believe that

the "community health centers, non-profit plan, opt-out vouchers, Medicaid expansion" will lead to all hell breaking loose?

[Armstead]

27. No -- But I don't believe they are going to help much with the working and middle class

There are a lot of people who believe in being self-sufficient and don;t want to find themselves having to join the ranks of "safety net" entitlement programs for the poor, because the normal routes of coverage are too expensive.

Look at what happens now to families that basically have to drive Mother into poverty in her old age so they can qualify for Medicaid to pay for the nursing care she need in her final years. It;s going to be great when working class families also have to do the same to themselves to qualify for medicaid.

Community health centers are great as a last resort for people in really tough situations -- But they are no substitute for honest to goodness coverage.

[MNDemNY]

10. In that the bill(s) move to further entrench the US in a system of for profit...

employment -based coverage, they are "worse than the status quo". Unless they make a significant move away from for profit health care they are worthless, because they go further in there propping up of this failed system, they are worse.Those who shill this bill for purely political reasons will never accept the fact that they are a step back wards. When ones only goal is to give the administration a "win", they are blind to the real effects of this corporatist bill.

[ProSense]

11. "they are 'worse than the status quo'"

Thanks for making my point.

[MNDemNY]

12. Yes, in this form , they are.

But for ones such as yourself, who seem to not care about the long-term effects of such corporatist legislation,it's all about the "victory". Well, in any event, we will soon se a real "public response" in the next year. Brace yourself.

[OnyxCollie]

16. Why shysters and con men will never go out of business.

There's a sucker born every minute.

Why "I told you so" will never fall into disuse. (See above.)

[damntexdem]

19. Because they're Republicans.

nuff said

[inna]

20. Why the most obsessive shills for this bill will never be taken seriously

:freak:

[ProSense]

23. People who believe their own noise. n/t

[MNDemNY]

25. Projecting?

[Forkboy]

28. Well, to your credit, I'm betting even you don't believe yours.

[ProSense]

36. You lost the bet. n/t

[Forkboy]

45. That's even scarier.

[RBInMaine]

31. Good post. People need to wake up and get real. This is just first step.

[Cha]

40. I give Pro Sense a lot of credit for trying but detactors

have already made up their minds and they'll go down in quicksand before they admit there's anything good about the foundation of the Senate Bill which still has to go to Conference with the House and then get passed and signed.

[grahamhgreen]

32. Not true. The good in the bill will be crushed by Big Insurance by the trillions they get from the

mandate, duh.

[ZombieHorde]

33. Check this out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x96625

[bvar22]

37. They will be taken seriously enough....

...after the bloodbath in 2010 and 2012.

Less than 35% of Americans support Mandates without a Public Option.

Even less after the REALITY of the Middle Class Tax Increases and increasing Premiums hit the Middle Class. Even the 30 million Uninsured who believe they will be getting a "subsidy" are going to be seriously disappointed when they discover that they will not be able to use their NEW Democratic Party Junk Insurance due to high deductibles/high Co-Pays.