Quick and dirty: Senate excise tax or House's tax on the rich?

[Hello_Kitty]

[GodlessBiker]

1. It's not even close.

[mkultra]

2. Its both. And im glad for it.

[Hello_Kitty]

4. Nice try, but no. eom

[mkultra]

24. blah blah blah but yes. eom

[Mojambo]

3. Definitely the House plan.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Kicking to see where DU stands on this. eom

[sandnsea]

6. Either/Or/Both

This is such a stupid thing to argue over. And one more time, the important issues like the amount of the subsidies and Medicaid increase are ignored.

This is a union fight. It doesn't affect most people, not even most union workers. I have no idea why they're so invested in this, it makes no sense.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. This is the "stupid thing" being debated in Congress right now.

The choice is between the excise tax and a tax increase on the wealthy. Your concerns over subsidies and Medicaid are irrelevant to this discussion.

[sandnsea]

21. Because the unions want the fight

People who have the best medical coverage in the country are taking presidence over the fight between 133% and 150% of poverty, and great subsidies and modest subsidies - and "progressives" are buying right in and then you come along and say the people who this legislation is supposed to help the most - are irrelevant??

[DrToast]

22. This is very much related to the subsidies available

The House has more generous subsidies because they tax the wealthy more through a surtax. The Senate bill isn't as generous with the subsidies because they tax the Cadillac plans. If they tried to raise as much money through the Cadillac plans, they would be impacting many more plans than currently planned for.

[sandnsea]

23. Then it would be called confiscating from the middle class

to give to the poor, while leaving the middle class with no help from this health care bill.

I don't think the 133% increase is solely based on the health insurance taxes.

[FrenchieCat]

7. quick and dirty is exactly how the Republicans would love to have this stuff explained.....

not even bothering for sound byte,
let alone an explaination.

Guess folks at Du are so smart,
they are all already well versed in the details of the matters,
and don't need an actual paragraph summing up anything.

Guess that is why we are becoming more like them everyday;
devoid of facts, and just twisting shit to our liking.

Quite disgusting that this is what DU has sunk to; a no fact zone,
full of unsupported one line hits and, and now, even a one line poll.

[Hello_Kitty]

8. Thanks for the kick, Frenchie! eom

[FrenchieCat]

10. Oh.....Is this the "Party" thread......

[Hello_Kitty]

11. Yeah. Thanks for kicking my post again! eom

[fujiyama]

19. The discourse on this site has become pathetic

I still like reading the articles people link to but I've been posting less and less because it's mostly mindless name calling and accusations.

I'm still undecided on the excise tax and from what I've read I have some reservations about it, but very few are giving a reasoned argument against it. Where are the numbers showing that this will hurt a majority of Americans? I don't want to see this bill passed on the backs of union members or the middle class, but I still haven't seen the data supporting the claim. I'd love to see a few links showing that it does.

It's just knee jerk emotional crap - and that goes for just about all issues now.

[freddie mertz]

12. Definitely House plan.

[Hello_Kitty]

13. Only 4 for the excise tax so far. eom

[Hello_Kitty]

14. Lookin' good for the House plan! eom

[IndianaGreen]

15. Health Care Excise Tax = A Big Middle Class Tax Increase

Impact of the Excise Tax on the Middle Class

Health Care Excise Tax = A Big Middle Class Tax Increase

Revised December 17, 2009

JCT data shows excise tax in the Senate bill would strike at the heart of the middle class

Health care legislation under consideration in the U.S. Senate would raise $149 billion over ten years by imposing a 40 percent excise tax above certain thresholds on insurance company health plans and self-insured plans offered by companies to their workers. This tax would have a dramatic effect on those plans forcing steep reductions in benefits, shifting of costs to workers and a significant increase in taxes on millions of middle-class families.

Contrary to claims by proponents that it will affect only “Cadillac” health plans, like those enjoyed by Goldman Sachs executives, according to Joint Committee on Taxation(i) data the excise tax will:

• Affect 19 percent of workers with employer-sponsored health coverage in 2016.
• Affect nearly 25 million households(ii) in 2019, including one-fifth of middle-class households making between $50,000 and $75,000.
• Affect about 25 percent of health plans by 2019.
• Cost affected households an additional $7,500 in taxes on average between 2013 and 2019, or more than $1,000 a year.
• In 2019, cost affected taxpayers who are millionaires an extra $2,600 in taxes and those making between $50,000 to $75,000 an extra $1,100 in taxes, but the wealthy taxpayers’ income will be at least 13 to 20 times greater.
• Be a tax increase of 0.1 percent of income for those households affected that make more than $1 million a year and be a tax increase of 1.4 percent for those households affected that make $50,000 to $75,000.

The JCT assumes that 82.5 percent of the revenue raised from the tax will be generated by increased wages to make up for health benefits cuts and increased cost sharing. However, most employers say they will not increase workers’ wages in response:

• Only 9 percent of human resource executives in a recent Towers-Perrin survey said if health care reform reduced their benefit costs would they increase salary or direct compensation; 78 percent said they would retain the savings in the business as profit.
• Just 16 percent of health plan sponsors in a recent Mercer survey said they would convert any health care cost savings into higher pay for their workers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(i) Figures 1 to 5 in this report were prepared by CWA based on data from the Joint Committee on Taxation in a letter to Rep. Joe Courtney (D-Conn.), from Thomas A. Barthold, Chief of Staff, Dec. 8, 2009.

(ii) In this report “households” refers to individuals and families paying taxes. Based on JCT data showing that 24.6 million “tax units” would be affected by the excise tax in 2019, Citizens for Tax Justice estimates that 12.6 million are married couples, 3 million are single parents and 9.1 million are childless single people for a total of 58 million men, women and children affected. http://www.ctj.org/pdf/healthexcisetax20091211.pdf

http://www.healthcarevoices.org/pages/impact-of-the-excise-tax-on-the-middle-class

[Hello_Kitty]

16. Thank you for posting this here. This part deserves an OP of its own:

The JCT assumes that 82.5 percent of the revenue raised from the tax will be generated by increased wages to make up for health benefits cuts and increased cost sharing. However, most employers say they will not increase workers’ wages in response:

• Only 9 percent of human resource executives in a recent Towers-Perrin survey said if health care reform reduced their benefit costs would they increase salary or direct compensation; 78 percent said they would retain the savings in the business as profit.
• Just 16 percent of health plan sponsors in a recent Mercer survey said they would convert any health care cost savings into higher pay for their workers.

The claim that this excise tax will lead to higher wages is a blatant falsehood.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. I just love how this is getting unrec'd. "How dare you poll DU!!" eom

[depakid]

18. Wouldn't it be something if the Dems actually went with the popular- and populist option?

One can always hope....

[IndianaGreen]

20. People wanted a public option and drug importation, but the PhRMA and Big Insurer were opposed

I would like to see all White House documents related to any behind closed doors deals with PhRMA and Big Insurer.