My sense of betrayal and the splits on DU

[nightrain]

(In response to a poster describing the aggressive tone recently on DU)

So when I hear you describe the aggression as similar to sibling rivalry, I ask myself, well, whose attention then are the sibs seeking, what is this symptom a manifestation of?

For myself, I have been reflecting on the amount of effort I gave to the Obama campaign last year and in 2008--donations of money, time--canvassing, holding houseparties, giving OFA feedback because I genuinely hoped that maybe this time an administration would be listening. Afterall, the outgoing message from OFA and Obama was--"we want to know what you are concerned about, we want your ideas, talk to us".

Well, he/they got plenty of feedback, and then over this past year didn't govern as he campaigned. The whole campaign team was switched out after the election and the bankers, Harvard smarties, and folks from the huge problem-making corporations came into the administration and were expected to find solutions to the problems they had created and benefitted from. (I got the first intimations that Obama was not able to handle conflict when he hired Geithner, Summers, Rahm and those folks, as well as having Rick Warren give the ?invocation? at the Inauguration). ("uh oh, Obama's not listening" = "Dad's not listening to me".)

So, there've been multiple examples over this past year when Obama's policy decisions go completely counter to majority public feedback he's gotten.

I imagine that there will be this "sibling rivalry" effect of a sense of betrayal by some, manifesting in aggression, and a counter action of support for Obama, those who have a hard time accepting the inevitable disillusionment, those who protect and defend Obama against criticism. I think we see that being acted out on DU, just like is happening "out there". And a functional leader would not be conflict averse, but would attempt to listen to both/all sides and then verbalize why he's making a particular decision. I think as a nation we are missing that piece. There's fury about being left out when he campaigned on transparency and then acts in a secretive manner. There's fury about hiding the corporate bribery going on.

Of course there's going to be rancour on DU. We're wanting to be heard, we're wanting not to be lied to. We're wanting this time to be different.

Some posters are able to contain/own their feelings better than others. Those that attack probably are feeling very hurt (on both sides).

If Obama is going to have a successful presidency, my hope is that he will start listening more intently, begin to tolerate conflict better, and let it happen. Let the airing of grievances happen, let the possible solutions be heard. All of them!

[NJmaverick]

1. Just more lame excuses for the vitroil and venom directed at President Obama

interestingly the polls show the vast majority of liberals and Dems approve of our President. DU has become some sort of bizarro world where the malice directed toward Obama is as bad as what we see from the right


I think you and many other critics need to read and study the Constitution and learn the limits of Presidental powers.

[watercolors]

3. You are so right on, thanks

nt

[suzie]

33. +500

[kiva]

6. And did this vast majority work for the campaign?

Did they knock on doors and make phone calls and donate more money than they could afford? No.

People who invested a lot of time and money in Obama's campaign generally did so because they expected him to be more than just another politician, and tend to be more disappointed than people whose 'investment' in the election involved going to the polls on election day.

And yes, I agree that DU is bizarro world...when I see 'liberals' supporting trickle-down economics, agreeing that it's just fine to coerce Americans into paying billions to private corporations, attacking union members who have decent health insurance as cadillac-driving millionaires, supporting civilian-killing drone wars, telling GLBTers they want pink ponies - yep, that's bizarro world.

[NJmaverick]

12. Yes many did, including myself

but I actually LISTENED to what the man said and also understand the Constitution.

[Chulanowa]

18. Damn glad to see there's at least two of us, then

I was starting to feel lonely.

[skepticscott]

38. And were you listening

when Obama promised a public option when he campaigned, and then lied and said he didn't? And were you listening when he said the negotiations on health care reform would take place in the open, and then went and cut secret deals with the pharmaceutical industry behind closed doors?

[Puglover]

103. I hear a chorus

of crickets.

[mkultra]

143. yes, now you should listen

we don't give a shit about minutia like that. Not one iota. We fully understand the nature of politics an campaigns. If you are outraged by these things, then you don't have a clue about politics. Progress is being made in the right direction as things permit and we are the ones doing it.

[Hello_Kitty]

153. "Read my lips. No new taxes."

That was just campaign politics too.

[mkultra]

160. I still fail to care

am i suppose to be mad at bush because he raised taxes? I'm not. I'm a Liberal. Im ok with taxation and i know it will always happen.

So whats your point?

[Ken Burch]

53. There's nothing progressives expected that was un-Constitutional

And what the man said in the campaign wasn't anywhere near as far right as what happened afterwards.

There was nothing to prepare for us for a Cabinet in which there was only one progressive(Hilda Solis), nor for a near-surrender on healthcare from the start.

[FLyellowdog]

28. I did and will do it again when the time comes.

As Rachel Maddow said on Letterman the other night, (to paraphrase)...This president has done more in his first year than any other president in an entire generation... Her point made again when she said he just keeps on working quietly and getting things done that don't make headlines because we're so focused on more controversial but not necessarily less important issues. Obama has the flick and is doing what we elected him to do...fixing this country for the betterment of its people. Get off his back. Give the country time to recover from the previous admins. atrocities. And give our President his 4 years to facilitate that recovery.

I am amazed at the awesomeness of President Obama and the whinings and bellyaches of your ilk make me sick.

edited to be nice

[pattmarty]

51. "Awesomeness of President Obama", what the fuck does that mean?

What, nobody can criticize? Jesusfuckingchrist this sounds like jr high, "awesomeness"?

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tbyg52]

55. +1

[mkultra]

141. Yes we did. MORE than you i can assure.

I invested much time and money and i am completely happy with him. I know many many people just like me. On the contrary, i know no one like you except on the internet where identities are anonymous.

[Tesha]

169. So there's no problem then. You'll be sufficient to re-elect him in 2012.

You don't need us (and your cohort has made that quite clear since
the election).

Just be sure you don't complain after the election is lost and ask us
why we didn't do what we "obviously" should have. Remember: you
are sufficient and don't need us.

Tesha

[KakistocracyHater]

164. +1,000,000

*

[Clovis Sangrail]

7. not more lame excuses

I haven't been around DU in a long time so my evaluation of nighttrain's post is of that post.. not anything else.

nighttrain made a reasonable observation of events that have transpired.
That doesn't mean I, or anybody else who feels the same, necessarily hate Obama (I both voted and campaigned for him).
Does he have a difficult job? yes
Has he done a good job on some things? yes
Has he been a disappointment on others? yes

I, and I'm sure many others, was pretty shocked to find Obama defending the idea of indefinite detention without trial of *suspected terrorists. In my book that's about as far from 'OK' as you can get.

I'm happy for other things he's done, and I think it's safe to assume that we're far better off with him than we would have been with McCain - but the divide between pre and post election Obama isn't a figment of our imaginations.

[inna]

13. night rain, not night train. :)

[Clovis Sangrail]

14. LOL

sorry about that nightrain - no foul intended

[nightrain]

31. I didn't notice the extra "t" actually. No problem.

[XanaDUer]

36. I think there was a night train here once

but he went the way of supermarket pizza.

[Ken Burch]

54. "Night Rain, that took my baby so far away...." uh, wait a minute...

...never mind....

[NJmaverick]

17. claiming betrayal is not a "reasonable observation"

again if you had listened to his speeches and understand the limits of the powers granted by the Constitution you would understand the hyperbole boarding on venom when claiming "betrayal"

[jgraz]

27. Oh really? Start watching at the 4:55 mark and tell us what you think.

One month before the election:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8wmN3wvhNM

And we are tired of watching as, year after year, candidates offer up detailed health care plans with great fanfare and promise, only to see them crushed under the weight of Washington politics and drug and insurance lobbying once the campaign is over.

That is not who we are. That is not who we have to be. Enough is enough! It is TIME FOR US TO CHANGE!

Sounds like someone needs to explain "the limits of the powers granted by the Constitution" to Candidate Obama.

[jgraz]

30. * cricket noise * cricket noise * cricket noise * cricket noise * cricket noise *

I thought so. :eyes:

[chimpymustgo]

58. Please post this as an OP.

Change = changiness = "the limits of the powers granted by the Constitution" = more excuses.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CTLawGuy]

157. That would explain why is he is fighting so hard to get this bill,

however imperfect, passed. He is sick of inaction from Washington and he does not want to fail again.

I guarantee that if the bill were to fail, we would not do anything about health care for at least another 10 years. If we pass this bill, there would be a basic framework onto which improvements (such as adding a public option) could more easily be made. What we should be doing is throwing Repugs and Blue Dogs out of office and replacing them with pro-PO dems, rather than whining about how bad the bill is.

Furthermore, that quote has nothing to do with the constitutional separation of powers whatsoever.

[KakistocracyHater]

165. I don't believe you Sen Franken just might introduce something

what makes you claim THIS is our ONLY chance?

[Clovis Sangrail]

32. sure it is

you might not personally feel betrayed about something but not seeing how somebody else might feel that way doesn't invalidate their feeling .. assuming they have a valid reason to feel that way.

Betrayal, or a sense of it, is completely valid re: Obama.
I don't think it's out of line *at all* to point out that the talk on civil rights before the election and the walk since the election have been something other than we the consumers were sold.
It's completely understandable that somebody could feel 'betrayed'.

In general, things being 'better than they were', or better than they 'could have been', is a poor reason to accept the way things are.

[Enthusiast]

46. I find myself claiming betrayal while

defending President Obama in the next instance. I'm torn. I think most of the DUers are torn.

Example-what possible justification is there for making an agreement with the pharmaceutical industry to not reimport drugs? Who exactly is in charge? Looks to me like the corporation has the upper hand. Why is that?

Instead of saying that's just the way it is, many of us feel Obama has betrayed us by appointing industry insiders. We feel excess corporate influence is the problem, not the solution. I have very little wiggle room on this.

[tbyg52]

56. >>excess corporate influence is the problem

Bingo

[MilesColtrane]

76. Yet, we may look back on these as the "good old days" when corruption was still just partial.

If the Supreme Court rules for unlimited, direct corporate contributions in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, it's pretty much over.

That will be the final nail in the coffin as the country becomes the U.S.A.T.&T.

[martymar64]

151. Obama will come more and more to resemble Gorbachev

Presiding over an empire as it collapses. He didn't initially cause it, he just happened to be on watch when the collapse happens.

We're starting to resemble the late Soviet Union circa 1986. We even have our own war in Afghanistan!
The parallels are becoming eerie.

[Go2Peace]

154. As someone who has been there I have to agree. Now we have "Oligarchs" too...

more and more corruption, a divide between the "haves" and have nots that is becomming epic in proportion. Our tax system is getting closer and closer to Russia's. The label of "Democracy" while we approach a more and more "unitary" and powerful Presidency.

I see great parallels and "warnings" in what is happening here when comparing it with the condition of Russia.

And your observation that we are seeing our own version of "Gorbachev"..... yes, it could very well be.... Perestroika, "openess and transparency".... chilling in the parallels. Let's hope this is all just a coincidence and the end point quite different.

[freddie mertz]

68. I too am torn. Revolted by the Republican attacks, appalled by the teabagger lies and racism.

But I was labeled a "hater" who "wants the president/Dems to fail" by a certain element here the MINUTE I expressed a whiff of doubt or disappointment at the derailing of the HCR promises that were made (starting late last summer).

What I want, what I believe most of us want, is for the president and the Dems to SUCCEED, but maybe we just define success a little differently.

We would prefer the success to come by doing, or at least ATTEMPTING to do, what they promised to do on HCR and the economic and civl liberties/civil rights agendas set out during the campaign.

I sincerely believe that following the present path will not only HURT the nation in terms of policy, but will also hurt the Democratic party politically for at least the next two cycles, unless something changes significantly along the way.

Failure is what I hope to see the Dems AVOID.

[KakistocracyHater]

166. those are the followers, each Party has them..........they can be quite rude

what upsets me is they use the same script the Bush followers used, but oh well.....

[MNBrewer]

63. Examples of things that would violate the Constitution?

Please? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJmaverick]

11. How would you know my "standard response:" in one day?

Still I protested George Bush violating the Constitution and over stepping his authority. I can not adopt your hypocritical stance and demand President Obama does the same,

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJmaverick]

16. bullshit

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

24. You may not be aware of this, but no one needs an "excuse" to criticize the president.

He's the President, not the King. In a democracy, criticism of our leaders is not only tolerated, it's expected -- as evidenced by your many (many) failed http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=388&topic_id=11413&mesg_id=11413">"Alert" campaigns on this board.

The mods understand this. You don't. Which is why your alerts are ignored.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pattmarty]

50. Uh, I kinda think that is exactly what the poster was talking about........

........So you end up proving his point? NOBODY here hates Obama. But you have to be deaf, dumb and blind to NOT SEE that he is not governing as the same person of the campaign. The Republicans march in lockstep behind their leaders and beliefs. Liberals don't. We question shit, sometimes too much. My opinion is (so far) Obama is a black Bill Clinton, a DLC corporate politician. Bury your head in the sand if you want, but we will lose seats next November it's just a matter of how many.

[SkyDaddy7]

64. You are correct!

DU has become a "pissing contest" to see who can slam Obama the hardest! Oh well, no president is perfect but Obama is doing a fine job so far!

However, I have learned a lesson...We on the left have our own class of Tea Baggers.

[freddie mertz]

65. "Vitriol and Venom." Pot, meet Kettle. nt.

[tblue]

77. At the (little) New Years Eve party I attended NOT one person

there was not sadly disappointed in Obama on significant issues. And all but one had voted for him (one Ron Paul voter/teenager, go figure). There was kind of this "You, too??!" reaction all around. But everyone of us said we're hoping things get better.

Now this wasn't a huge party. Maybe 25 people. But I'm pretty sure none but me posts on DU. Does that count as the "real world"? Unscientific, but still.

[Go2Peace]

155. Same thing here. Many Democrats I run into are dissapointed... I wonder about the truth of the

"polls". Because if 84% are really approving, one would expect it to be more difficult to run into Democrats that are disillusioned. Something doesn't seem quite right. Either than or folks are more aware or more active, or maybe just more cynical, in my area?

[inna]

89. there was no vitriol, or venom, or lame excuses.

You're full of shit (and spin), as always.

:thumbsdown:

[seeinfweggos]

95. preach on brother maverick

[donheld]

152. There are a few here on DU who would defend Obama no matter what he does

[HughMoran]

172. Agreed. Alternate reality.

More justifications for bad behavior - I'm not buying it either.

[dkf]

2. Obama only listens to the senate.

He no longer even listens to himself.

[jgraz]

21. No, he doesn't. The Senate is doing exactly what Rahm and Obama want them to do.

How do we know this? Because when the Senate stepped out of line with drug re-importation, Rahm forced the Democrats to filibuster an amendment from one of their own, Byron Dorgan. It doesn't get more heavy-handed than that.

Of course, Obama only showed his hand because his sweetheart deal with Billy Tauzin was in danger. When the survival of the middle class is threatened, Obama reverts to his "poor little me, I'm just the President" cover story.

[dkf]

22. You could be right

Never considered that. You are even more cynical than I am.

[jgraz]

26. It's not cynicism, it's just what happened.

When I was working for Obama's election, I really believed that there was a non-zero probability that he actually meant what he was saying. The evidence is now in. Probability is now solidly zero.

[Dr.Phool]

29. And Dorgan stuck it right back to them.

He felt betrayed also. He staked his reputation and his word on the reimportation amendment.

[amandabeech]

123. I wish that Dorgan had said what he thought about Obama's betrayal of that drug reimportation

amendment.

Obama's treatment of Dorgan and an issue that is of great importance to many was shameful.

I have real respect for Dorgan.

I have less and less respect for Obama.

[nightrain]

126. me too. I'd love to know more about the deals made so that Dorgan's

amendment got dropped. A year ago, I was so excited, well, except for the Rick Warren bit, and some of the administration's appointees. I really didn't expect to feel so sad and disappointed and illusioned with some of Obama's actions or inactions. But then, if I had known that he describes himself as a "New Democrat" (on another DU thread today) which includes the support of free trade and of a "muscular" foreign policy, I might have voted and worked for another candidate.

Well, I hope that my sharing my feelings helped some see a bit more of the issue from the inside out.

Mods--As I wrote to Skinner, I would like an explanation of the moving of this post from Editorials to Presidential today. I think that was nasty.

[tavalon]

61. I love your sig line, btw.

[tblue]

78. Yeah, that's a good one! Lol! I like yours, too. ; )

[jgraz]

125. Heh. Congrats on being one of the few to read to the end.

:D

[valerief]

71. Bingo! nt

[bluethruandthru]

163. I'd love to hear Obama/Rahm explain the filibuster. n/t

[Warpy]

4. I don't see the vitriol directed at the man, only at the mushiness

of his pre election positions. Likely the man will learn after the first two years that conservatives won't play fairly and their shit won't work.

I've actually been pleasantly surprised. I paid more attention to his record than to his speeches. Speeches are dreams, records are reality.

I hoped he wouldn't make things worse. He's actually managed to make a few things better.

[midnight]

5. Nice response to the plan before the election, and the results of scrapping the

plan after being sworn into office. I know it's just short hand to a complex deal, but I think you make a great effort in touching on the disconnect.....

[abq e streeter]

8. A very moderate , reasoned and reasonable set of observations

And terribly disappointing that it would be characterized by someone else as " a lame excuse for vitriol and venom...against the President" when it was so obviously nothing of the sort. I myself am, reluctantly, in the "disappointed in Obama" camp, but I try to listen to and am willing to have my points of view altered by, those who point out the good things he's done and/or is doing. Thank you for this OP; again, it is very moderate and reasonable, and a good faith effort to get people on both sides of this issue to see where the other side is coming from and to have some respect for each other, and maybe a little understanding of each other's points of view and motives.

[nightrain]

9. thank you, that was my intent

[tango-tee]

41. I saw no vitriol or venom in your post, either.

Your reasons were well thought out and clearly stated. Gavé you a rec.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

19. I am with you

Obama has done some great things, but to reconcile the campaign Obama with the President Obama is something I am having a very hard time doing. The poster that construed the OP as vitriol and venom is par for the course for that particular person, pay them no mind.

[nightrain]

23. thanks. For me, attacks are evidence of hurt feelings. I don't take them personally, they

are about a poster's feelings/situation. Disillusionment and grief are very painful. Mine have been.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

37. Mine have too

Unfortunately I have taken the bait with some of them, it has been hard not to these days. I guess in the past few months I have been disillusioned with the entire political process.

I cast my first ever vote when I voted for Al Gore in 2000 and the last eight years were a nightmare as you well know.

When Obama came a long I believed in politics again. Was I naive? Probably. Did I see in him what I wanted to see? Yes, for sure. It doesnt change the fact that the last few months have been difficult. And I have rethought where my place is in the political system, or if I even have a place, here at DU or in politics in general. Keep up the good fight nightrain, and know you are not alone.

[bertman]

39. I like what abq e streeter has just said.

Recced this thread. Thanks, nightrain.

[highplainsdem]

59. I agree.

[slipslidingaway]

25. Thanks knr n/t

[Vidar]

34. K&R.

[Lil Missy]

40. DU is not representative of real life. n/t

[pundaint]

42. More representative than Obama's actions are to his campaign promises.

If you tee it up, I will attempt to hit it. But as in golf, expect it to go left.

[Go2Peace]

156. Strange thing is Democrats I talk to in my area often express disappointment

I think we have enough experience with "polls" and propaganda that we cannot take for granted they are always accurate. I suspect they are not or are at least missing a component of the feelings of the populace.

[yurbud]

43. the analogy of sibling rivalry is asinine and you can tell it comes from inside the beltway or a PR

firm.

People are mad at Obama's betrayals because they affect our quality of life or even our ability to feed and clothe our families or get medical care without going bankrupt.

It is not enough to give us only as much of a safety net, health care, and education as the idle rich aren't offended by or have figured out some way to profit from.

In at least one major area like health care, Wall Street, or the wars, he needs to break with the DLC/GOP policies and break those industries until they yield to common human decency and have no power to harm us again.

Instead, if Obama and his administration were vampire hunters, they would be going around with bottles of blood and coffins instead of stakes and holy water.

[OneBlueSky]

44. let me simplify things a bit . . . I like Obama . . . I voted for Obama . . .

I got others to vote for Obama . . . and I contributed to Obama's campaign, despite the fact that, for the most part, I'm on a very limited fixed income . . .

and I despise the way Obama is governing . . . from bank bailouts to healthcare, from the war in Afghanistan to the Patriot Act, from environmental policies to virtually every other issue that is important to me, I absolutely hate what he's doing -- and not doing . . .

which leaves me scratching my head and wondering what to do . . . support someone else in the next election? . . . turn Republican (fat chance)? . . . drop out of politics altogether with an understanding that it really, truly doesn't matter who we elect? . . .

I don't know . . . I really, really don't know . . .

[Enthusiast]

47. Me too, OneBlueSky. nt

[DisgustedInMN]

49. You have discribed me.

While I'm relatively "new" here, I've been on net "poli" boards for well over a decade. I came "here" because I found myself no longer able to defend the differences between what Obama the Candidate promised, and yes HE DID PROMISE to govern like, and the reality of how he ACTUALLY is governing to people who ACTUALLY do hate him and want him to fail. You can tell who they are, because Barack Obama is busy giving away the farm to them as they stab him in the back.

Democrats can face the reality of how much harm the spineless capitulation is doing to the future of not only Obama's Presidency, but of the party in general and reverse the trend, or continue down the road of being Republican Light and be made insignificant. Given the chose between voting for an actual Republican and voting for a Democrat that acts like a Republican, the Republican will almost always win. And if the Democratic Party can't get it's members agenda enacted with the kinds of majority it has today, then perhaps where it's headed shouldn't surprise anyone. Republicans managed to fuck us good, and didn't have anywhere NEAR our numbers, lest any forget.

[TicketyBoo]

75. So you came here to complain about the President?

Man, I'm just about ready to give up here.

This is NOT what I thought this place was all about. I can get this over at Freeperville. They must be chortling about what's going on here.

One year he's had to work on everything that is wrong. One lousy year.

I guess some of you believed that "Barack the Magic Negro" wasn't just a racist song parody title?

If Jesus came back, he couldn't perform enough miracles to suit some people around here. Geez.

[nightrain]

79. please tell me where these assumptions come from in you, I think you

are really misconstruing what making a critique is about. I have never heard or seen anyone making a legit critique of Obama on DU say such nasty racist things. Or are you just trying to get a rise/bait people?

[TicketyBoo]

81. I didn't assume anything.

It just seems that people expect President Obama to haul out his magic wand and make it all better.

That's what it looks like to me.

[nightrain]

83. here's what sounds like an assumption to me--

"I guess some of you believed that "Barack the Magic Negro" wasn't just a racist song parody title?"

Where does that come from in you?

[TicketyBoo]

84. As in

"haul out your magic wand and make it all better."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_the_Magic_Negro

It didn't come from me; it comes from the attitude I see here, which is unfortunate.

[nightrain]

86. that didn't come from a Dem though... why perpetuate that and

throw it out here? I surely am not hearing that said or intimated on DU by any Dem.

[TicketyBoo]

88. It seems

apt.

[nightrain]

actually, it's baiting I think because I haven't heard or seen anything

like that kind of a nasty comment here.

[TicketyBoo]

98. No, far from it.

People expect miracles, and Obama isn't into miracles. Too bad for those who expect otherwise.

[nightrain]

101. "People"--who?

[Puglover]

106. NOONE has said that here.

It is pulling this racist RW bullshit out of it's ass.

[DisgustedInMN]

108. What pure., unmitigated nonsense you shovel.

I have NEVER uttered anything approaching the HORSESHIT you are tossing against this wall. Shame om you. I'm too much of a gentleman to give you the response you actually deserve. Do us both a favor and refrain from taking your cheapshots at me, I don't need them OR you.

[nightrain]

139. please reply--who expects miracles? I haven't seen a one on DU.

[DisgustedInMN]

109. No..

... I came to discuss being shit on by the party I've always been loyal to.

FDR put 1,000,000 unemployed back to work within 30 days of taking office. Quit making lame excuses for failure to be affective.

[TicketyBoo]

112. So you came here,

to a DEMOCRATIC site, to complain about the party and the President who is the leader of that party.

Quit making lame excuses for failure to be affective.

I can't decipher what you mean by that statement. I can't see that I've made ANY excuses. Personally, I don't think any excuses are necessary.

Things are looking up; economic disaster was averted, and we have President Obama to THANK for that.

[DisgustedInMN]

129. It seems...

... Republitards aren't the only ones just a little bit quick to put up the "Mission Accomplished" banner.

There's at least 17.3% of us that are less than impressed and less certain that "economic disaster was averted." We'll join in the celebration when WE are also part of that "recovery." Till then, save it for the pep squad, cuz' us doing the heavy lifting aren't feeling quite so confident.

[TheKentuckian]

114. How is it a miracle to not actively sell the country out to corporate interests and elevate

conservatives?

He is facilitating the entrenchment of corporate power rater than fighting against it. He's wishy washy on civil rights. He coddles the Republicans and conservatives and sends enforcers for liberals. He is persecuting a very stupid war that is unwinnable that does little more than create insurgents, more insurgents than the total number of organized terrorist in the world by even the most neocon reckoning. You know what an insurgent is don't ya? That's amotherfucker who wasn't thinking about your ass until you occupied his homeland, killed his family via "collateral damage", or otherwise fucked him over due to no fault of his own.

Check my history. I've been on this motherfucker's side the whole way. I pleaded for realism and patience. I spoke to the limits of the office and the configuration of the Congress but damn it enough is enough! This man was not hired to be simply an improvement over today's Republicans but to at least to begin to turn the tide and instead we got another friend to "the stakeholder" that tells us to shut the fuck up and like it because there is nowhere else to go.

Obama really better be "Barack the Magic Negro" if he honestly believes he is going to do enough to overcome shitting on his footsoldiers and mocking them as he wipes his ass.

[Caretha]

127. What an assine post n/t

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

45. I am disappointed in Obama AND

feel betrayed.

[Ineeda]

48. What I object to about the discord on DU

is not necessarily the differences of opinion. My problem is the name-calling. Calling President Obama a liar, fraud, corporatist or whatever doesn't contribute to the discussion of policy. Calling one group cheerleaders and much worse or calling the 'other side' haters and much worse is childish and gets us nowhere. We mock the teabaggers for their inaccurate and silly name-calling. We have strong opinions - that's good. But we should hold ourselves to a higher standard of discourse. IMHO, of course.

[QC]

57. Constant incivility used to get people thrown off the site.

Now nothing much happens to those who do nothing but bully and attack 24/7. That's why we get so much of it.

[skepticscott]

60. President Obama IS a liar and a corporatist

Watching the debates and negotiations on health care reform should have made that indisputably clear to any sensible person. If truth is not a total defense in the criticism of elected officials on this site (whether they are Republicans or Democrats), then what's the point?

[CTLawGuy]

158. "corporatist"

the "socialist" of the left...

[scentopine]

66. Disagree - corporatist is perfectly good word and wonder

if what you really want to do is eliminate any accurate and descriptive analogy for the way we have handled the war (over 50% of those fighting in Asia are contractors), health care (insurance companies and for profit hospitals wrote the legislation in private meetings), and Wall Street (is it really necessary to explain this?)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/corporatism

I claim he is a corporatist and a realist who understand that to get elected you have to be one of two things - republican or democrat.

Or taking your argument to its inevitable end - why use name calling like republican or democrat - can't we all just be one ideology?

What I really see is a tone deaf party, working to eliminate liberals by scolding us non-stop. Just like the republicans.

The media has made liberals hated in America - for what?

What did we do to cause the chaos around Enron, Banking crisis I, Banking Crisis II, War and Terror?

Rush Limbaugh and corporate America shut us down and we remain the boogie man.

When a group of people don't get their needs met - they get angry.

With anger comes change. We need anger. It is rational and healthy.

Liberals have been beaten down - we would have impeached Bush. Now we are angry. Very angry. We have no representation in this government.

I hope people take their anger to the polls and if they stay home in anger, that's OK with me. I used to think it was a terrible thing not to vote. No more.

[Ken Burch]

52. Good point. We had a RIGHT to expect that the president would move further right after the election

In fact, we were repeatedly told DURING the campaign that the centrism was only FOR the election.

We had a right to expect that both of those assertions would be factual.

[highplainsdem]

62. K&R

[MilesColtrane]

69. "Let the airing of grievances happen, let the possible solutions be heard "

I hope for more feats of strength.

[nightrain]

74. you caught it... :)

[valerief]

70. Excellent! Happy Festivus and on with the airing of grievances! nt

[TexasObserver]

72. Short of supporting other parties, DU Democrats are free to criticize the president.

No one here has a right to demand loyalty to the president as a condition of posting except the site owner. Since that is not his requirement, it cannot be a requirement imposed by zealous posters.

I am a Democrat, and I'm more of a Democrat than the president is. That means my job as a progressive Democrat is to demand of him that he lean toward FDR, not Ronald Reagan.

[inthebrain]

73. DU has taken an anti leftist tone but that's really nothing new

and is purveysive throughout American politics, economics and social life these days anyways. It's also consistent with the partys move to the right given that the Republicans are more batshit than usual.

Much of the agressivness on this board comes from a very small sect of anti leftist posters. Not that that didn't exist before but the dissagreement was more friendly and based on an issue. Today it has gotten out of hand round these parts.

It's more about who has control over this place it seems. Either way I don't care much. I can go and post somewhere else if it gets that bad.

[TicketyBoo]

80. Where?

Where do you go to get away from this, because I'm ready to jump ship.

I've been disappointed, too. I want the same things you want.

My first disappointment was when he nominated Timothy Geithner for Secretary of the Treasury. (Too dumb or too crooked to pay his income tax. I'm betting on the latter, but, either way, if he can't figure out his own finances he has no business being Secretary of the Treasury.)

I wanted Medicare For All.

I wanted him to bring the troops home from Afghanistan instead of sending more.

But, do you know what? Just because I'm disappointed in some of what has happened doesn't mean that I don't trust this President to do what HE THINKS is right. He's a smart man, and if he is influenced by "corporatists," it may be because he thinks they have merit in their positions, and maybe they do.

He has a lot more information on all of this than any of us do, and I still trust this President.

That's why it just plain HURTS to hear people talk about "primarying" him, and other such nonsense; on what is supposed to be a site that supports Democrats.

I am disgusted, too, but more at the impatience and lack of trust in who we elected president which is expressed here than at the President himself.

You've heard all the reasoning, so I won't bother with that. However, anyone who believes that a candidate can deliver on all of his campaign problems AT ALL, never mind in the FIRST YEAR is setting themselves up for disappointment in that person, and not just in his actions. From what I read here, that's where a lot of you are right now, and it's a damned shame for you and for President Obama and for this country. A damned shame.

[nightrain]

85. okay, and how about a president that puts corporate "welfare" before that of the citizens?

Why would Obama need to have secret meetings with corporations? Does he fear losing their support/funds/favor? If yes, why should corporations have that kind of power over a president?

I want our president to be able to stand up to corporate power, to decrease it. I think that's what some of us are saying. I don't hear "Obama-hating" as it's been thrown about on DU at times. I hear, "listen to us, we think you're going in the wrong direction, we want to be listened to".

[TicketyBoo]

100. Well,

good luck with that.

Those CORPORATIONS are responsible for much in the way of job creation (or not).

It's important that he talk with them, and not likely that they're going to have a televised luncheon while they're doing the talking.

[nightrain]

102. no, actually "small business" has traditionally been the job creator.

so.... we need to protect the corporations before and above people? is that where you're going with this?

Sure, talk with them--openly, like he campaigned on. Why do you think he didn't follow-through on that?

[TicketyBoo]

110. While it's true that "small businesses"

do create a lot of jobs, so do large corporations. They also have a huge impact on the labor market when they "downsize" or when they hire in large numbers. There's simply no denying that. And the large corporations, like it or not, are an important part of this economy, including jobs. Railroads, airlines, etc. — you expect to be able to listen in on their meetings with the President? I suspect nothing would get accomplished that way. There would be too much self-conscious pandering to the cameras to get anything done.

…we need to protect the corporations before and above people?

Some people here put words into people's posts that weren't there. The interests of corporations and people are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I don't think corporate executives (or many other people) are going to sit down in televised meetings with the President to seriously discuss issues facing them in their businesses. Why would they? Do you really expect things to get discussed with the entire country looking on? I don't. Heck, even the "oopsie" beer get-together wasn't an "open meeting."

[nightrain]

111. nice try.... oh dear... here we go again... But Obama campaigned on

transparency with these people....

please. watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8wmN3wvhNM


all of it. Get back to me on the transparency disconnect some of us are talking about.

[TicketyBoo]

113. Are you youthful?

Because anyone who has been around awhile knows that a campaign is built on hopes, and reality is something different.

It is always thus.

[nightrain]

115. not youthful. change of subject? did you watch it?

[TicketyBoo]

117. Yep.

But I'd already seen it.

[nightrain]

122. okay. I guess it doesn't matter much to you then that he didn't keep his word. Okay.

Many of us, obviously, see that as an ongoing problem and want that to improve.

[TicketyBoo]

124. As I've said,

candidates campaign on what they HOPE to do. Once elected, reality comes to call.

Ideals are great; reality sometimes bites. I've just been around a long time, and realize that.

[nightrain]

128. and I've been around a while too and would like my candidates and elected officials

to keep their word, or at least explain well why not.

[TicketyBoo]

130. Dream on.

I've never known it to happen 100%.

Elected officials do what they can do, and that's all you can really expect. Anyway, it's all I expect.

[nightrain]

133. I don't think it's too much to ask. I ask it of the people I come into

contact with. I don't like being lied to, or the impression that I'm being lied to. Can't build a relationship on lies. I think it's quite okay to expect more than what we've gotten. Elicit better behavior.

[TicketyBoo]

134. We simply disagree.

I think I'm apt to live a happier life with less disappointment.

I've grown to not expect a lot from people. There is that t-shirt, "The more I know people, the more I like my dog."

[nightrain]

138. yeah, and it you don't expect more, you won't get it either. I call it "settling".

[TicketyBoo]

146. Oh,

like you're gonna get more? No, you're not.

You're setting yourself up for bitter disappointment. "My way or the highway" doesn't work. It doesn't work in politics, it doesn't work in business, and it doesn't work in life.

Got a brother-in-law like that. Can't keep a job. Three divorces and too many failed relationships to count.

But he's gonna have it HIS way or NO way.

I have a plaque hanging on my wall that says, "Contentment is not the realization of everything you want, but the realization of everything you have."

Damned right I'll settle, and be more content in life. Contentment doesn't mean you give up or quit. It means you strive more quietly and are pragmatic about things.

But you go right ahead with your "Gotta have it all" attitude and see how much happiness that brings you.

President Obama thinks more like I do, which is why you don't appreciate him. And which is exactly why I do.

[nightrain]

149. wow. such venom and assumptions. The end of discussion with you..

[TicketyBoo]

150. "The end of discussion with you.."

Finally…one thing we can agree upon.

[inthebrain]

118. The function of a small business just like a corporation

is to CREATE PROFIT.

The idea that either of them exists to create jobs is a crock of shit argument.

[TicketyBoo]

119. Good point.

Jobs are essential tools of the trade, corporation or small business.

That said, you can work for a good employer or a not-so-good one. Not all are created equal, large or small.

[nightrain]

121. Some small businesses, though, are also services. Sometimes there isn't

really "profit" after the bills get paid. But, I hear your point about job creation.

[inthebrain]

90. THere are a few places

I don't go to the ones "we do not mention" (just to clarify that's not what I am implying just in case prying eyes make an issue). Not that the folks I post with agree with everything I post or even remotely agree. Just less of a threat of getting kicked out or harassed by folks who'd rather attack the messenger as opposed to discussing content.

Overall, if you are a lefty well, we are pretty much alone. We are all, as Pete Seager would say, "here with our little tea cups looking for more people with tea cups".

I think trusting politicians is a very dangerous thing. They are politicians and we are civilians. If they are gonna act as politicians we have to act as citizens. In this country the politicians have always been on the side of the moneyed elite and the gains made by the working class have been hard fought with much resistance from the politicians and the wealthy.

Overall, I'm not into forcing things down people's throats. More than anything I'd rather people find their own truths. At least then you know they've come to their conclusion using their own reasons. The reactionary politics of both parties that discourage people from doing that is dangerous. Much of that is the reason why this board is ever shifting. It's supposed to "uphold progressive ideals" while "supporting Democratic candidates". You can't uphold an ideal and blindly support a person.

It just doesn't work that way. The citizens who may want to explore certain issues or compare and contrast their position with others get mashed. Honest dialogue becomes the casualty.

So it's a tough area.

[nightrain]

92. yes, honest dialogue is hard to come by. PM me if you would

about the 'I don't go to the ones "we do not mention"' bit. I'm not sure I am understanding you there... I appreciate your input/perspective.

[Kaleva]

82. Obama would have won regardless of any member's effort or lack of it.

No one can claim that they made the difference in winning a state that Bush had previously won in 2000 and 2004 or that it was they that kept McCain from winning a blue state. Only a few states were competitive and even there, no one individual made the critical difference. Everyone here at DU who says they spent hours upon hours of labor and donated as much as they were allowed by law to do could have stayed at home and not even gone to vote and the outcome of the election would have remained the same.

[nightrain]

87. I don't think so. Each individual's efforts, in all their forms, helped

get the vote out and brought in contributions.

[Kaleva]

93. Collectively yes.

Even the person who did nothing but cast his or her vote for Obama helped. But no one individual can claim that Obama owes them as he would have won anyways without their efforts.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone here. They who have worked hard ought to be praised! Just saying no one ought to get a big head about it for lack of better words.

[nightrain]

97. collectively is the point. Correct. We were jazzed, motivated, ecstatic to

have someone who we could believe in. We want him to govern like that, act on those values which he espoused so convincingly. Now, I'm not sure what his values are. There's disjointedness. We want him to integrate better I think.

[ProSense]

91. That is the problem with those who criticize

If Obama is going to have a successful presidency, my hope is that he will start listening more intently, begin to tolerate conflict better, and let it happen. Let the airing of grievances happen, let the possible solutions be heard. All of them!

Assuming that the President isn't listening simply because they are disappointed. Have you ever stopped to think that he is doing what he believes is right? Political disappointment happens. It's built into the governing/legislative process.

"Airing of grievances"? "Tolerate conflict"? Since Obama took office, the right and left have errupted into constant criticism of every action.

It's now at the point where some are taking the position that because they are disappointed, the administration and Democrats need to fail.



edited missing word.

[nightrain]

96. Obama's secretiveness after campaigning on transparency is problematic. Excluding

certain interested parties while campaigning on inclusion is a problem.

I hear very little about "needing to fail".

Actually, I think what we're saying is "do right by the people rather than protect the corporations. Ruffle some corporate feathers on behalf of the people." I think we want to know more about his values and preferences after experiencing the dissonance of his campaign rhetoric.

I think it was the DU poster ProLeMore who wrote--

"One Must Remember That Obama's Rhetoric And Action Are Disjoint

The Rhetoric is alive with hope and change.

The Action is replete with reconciliation and appeasement.

It is as if the man is at war with himself.

How can one so conflicted be expected to stand firm and act?"



This has stuck with me. Obama would not need to have secret meetings with corporations if he was acting on behalf of the people, rather than protecting corporations.

I think we are pointing out the discrepancies, painful as it is to acknowledge. Try to see it in that light, please.

[TheKentuckian]

120. If he is doing what he thinks is right then he should be replaced

because ceding more of the country and the functions of government to the corporations and protecting wealth and profits is not what is in the interests of the people of the United States of America.

Expanding in Afganistan is not in the interest of the American people and degrades our security from both a threat and internal standpoint. What is sensible about a 100k troops in a theatre with a 100 eneimies? What kind of bang for our buck are we going to get there? Meanwhile, the real threats are virtually everywhere and able to launch attacks.

Wall Street still runs amok and is more of a threat to the economy than a year ago with no solution in sight.

Obama was hired to clean up the mess not pour pig vomit all over the place himself. What a fraud! I'd love to eat a ton of crow on that but I believe he pulled the okiedoak. I guess that's why he swore he wouldn't let "them" pull it on us, he wanted the pleasure for himself.

[donco6]

136. Oh yeah, I thought of that long ago.

"Have you ever stopped to think that he is doing what he believes is right?"

That's become more and more obvious. We have the corporate lamprey HCR bill Obama wanted. We have DADT in place because Obama wants it. We have the charter school takeover RTTT because Obama wants it.

Yeah, we figured it out a while back, Pro$ense.

[Little Star]

148. Did you say the same about Bush? Built into the process? n/t

[Odin2005]

94. I voted for who I thought was a Dean. I got a Clinton.

I worked my ass off for Obama and I feel deeply betrayed.

[TicketyBoo]

99. If you wanted to vote for Dean

you should have written his name on your ballot.

[ima_sinnic]

105. I will probably be doing just that the next time (nt)

[TicketyBoo]

116. Don't know who replied

or what you said.
Ignore is a great feature.

[Puglover]

161. Didn't I see you whining upthread?

"Man, I'm just about ready to give up here." And after six whole months? DU just wasn't what you "thought it would be." And yet here you still are. Glutton for punishment?

[Mimosa]

162. TicketyBoo, is your real name Rahm Emmanuel?

I worked hard and contributed what I could to get Obama elected. I supported him EARLY. And I paid careful attention to Obama's speeches. In a few cases the President has done opposite of what he said he'd do. Of course some of us are disappointed and feel betrayed.

[DisgustedInMN]

140. What a ...

...wonderful idea! I'll take you up on that come 2012. (Actually, I'm writing in Dennis Kucinich, just so YOU know, pass it along to your DLC friends) :patriot:

In the meantime, I'll speak my piece and people like you won't EVER silence me.

Have a nice day.

[TicketyBoo]

147. "I'll speak my piece and people like you won't EVER silence me."

Wanna bet?

Welcome to my Ignore list.

You're now silenced as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and, by the way, I'll be voting for President Obama (but, of course, you KNEW that).

[CTLawGuy]

159. you mean the centrist DLC governor of VT

with the A+ rating from the NRA?

[otohara]

104. Deja Vu

I feel like I'm reading the same shit over and over at DU.

Eight years later, a hole in the ground remains where the Twin Towers stood and we're still in two wars. This country ain't what it used to be when it comes to getting shit done!

[nightrain]

107. would you like to contribute something shit-less? We're listening and willing to discuss.

[akbacchus_BC]

131. Well, I don;t know why you are so angry with President Obama, he inherited a boat load of corrup and

you expect him to turn things around in less than one year. Bearing in mind that he has some Dems in the House and Senate who will be voting against change.

One thing I dislike about PO is his fallacy about bi partisanship with the cocksuckers repubs. Well, dunno what to say but PO had a lot of political clout and he wasted it!

[akbacchus_BC]

135. Well, if you feel you are betrayed, I have no idea what to type to you!

Guess you have to feel betrayed 24/7 and goodluck with that! One year into his fucking presidency and he inherited a boat load of shit and you want miracles!

[nightrain]

137. no, not miracles, just follow-through on what he campaigned on.

It would help discourse if you would not throw words out like "miracles". Obama campaigned on transparency and having the healthcare negotiations on c-span didn't he? When you use the word miracles it's as if you're giving him a "pass" on his words.

No, I don't go around feeling betrayed 24/7. That's the purpose of actually grieving, to get through certain experiences.

[Phx_Dem]

145. The never-ending expression of "betrayal" continues . . .

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry::cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[KakistocracyHater]

167. you act like Obama is a child who accidentally raised people's expectations

he isn't. He IS a disappointment & I hope it makes him change directions, the Country Club is killing America, quit listening to them.

[timzi]

168. Good Post , Nightrain, But I've Seen Enough.

and have given up on Obama after contributing to & voting for him
like you did. Unfortunately he's just another corporatist who leads
us into war and corporate welfare.

No solutions here, I'm afraid we're all pretty much fucked.
I will never support him again. May even have to vote against him
just to send a message (as long as the other side doesn't give us
another bat shit crazy ticket again next time).

Yeah, I'm pissed, and it's not going away.

[Fire1]

170. Wow. this thread is still here??!!!! n/t

[inthebrain]

171. I've been a member of this board for about six years

and I've NEVER seen this bad.

This board is at an all time low.

It is all about everyone getting punished because the few who need to be babysat (they are the ones that ask for the babysitting). More than anything it's because they don't like their own reactionary politics exposed.

[RBInMaine]

173. He 1000% better than ANY RePUKE ! You need to god damn well count your blessing. It is called

adulthood.