Two Prevalent Misconceptions on DU:

[MannyGoldstein]

I keep seeing the same incorrect claims made, so let's try again:

1. Obama never campaigned on a public option for health insurance.

Obama has made that claim himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96U-7lILbXc&feature=related

But this is not the truth. He campaigned on it ("Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange, including a public option"), even made a television campaign ad promising it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaKV2gGjEpk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96U-7lILbXc

2. Most Americans are in favor of the current incarnation of health insurance "reform" - trying for the public option would appease the fringe left, but hurt the Democrats because it goes too far to the left.

Totally backwards.

In almost every poll, most Americans are against the current plan being promulgated by the White House. Here's a summary of the recent polling:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latestpolls/health_care.html

HOWEVER, while Americans are clearly against the current no-public-option proposal, they overwhelmingly favor a plan that includes the public option that Obama pledged to demand (until he took office, that is): http://act.boldprogressives.org/cms/sign/natpollresults121809/

If we're to make progress, it's important that we all move forward with clarity. If the facts are kept in mind, motives become clearer - as do our next steps.

[valerief]

1. kick

[bjobotts]

107. We must pass this bill to get our foot in the door for the 1st time in 100yrs of trying

[bjobotts]

108. Amendments will come including a PO.It's better than the status quo, something to work with.

[bjobotts]

113. Thanks for this OP. I thought everyone knew this here at DU.The opposition to crush HC proves we ne

we need to pass the damn bill. We won't lose site of what needs to be fixed but at least we willl have something to work with rather than nothing.

[defendandprotect]

135. Sounds like Nixon's "secret plan" to end the Vietnam war . . .!!!

One insurance companies are in the health care system, you won't get them out!

Bush put the pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies into Medicare Drug Benefit!!

Has it benefited anyone? No --

[defendandprotect]

134. Nonsense . . . no other nation has had to sacrifice health care to insurance companies!!!!

and neither should we!!

What we have to end is this insane idea of corporate control and corporate power

we've adopted -- and capitalism.

These are brutal systems which are brutalizing America --

And it's been accomplished by pre-BRIBING and pre-OWNING our elected officials --

This is simply a selling out of the public you're watching --

STOP compromising for bread-crumbs and STOP worshiping the bread-crumb-givers!!

Even Bill Moyers the other day made clear passing this bill is a bad idea for our futures!!

[theFrankFactor]

121. You Won't Hear This On Corporate Media.

It's an entirely reasonable and cogent post that tells the truth. What happens next is the mental gymnastics some people will use to protect their egos versus those of us with sense.

The nation didn't elect Democrats to act like fucking Republicans! Congress is at 18% approval, why? Too liberal? MY ASS!

[defendandprotect]

136. Agree -- 1000% --

[Aaria]

125. Don't ever think that this can be fixed after it's voted in....

Clinton said the same thing about NAFTA when he signed it into law. This is giving the Insurance companies 3o,ooo,ooo new customers that they can gouge. They have gotten enough.

Flame on and eat your veggies.

[ProSense]

2. "Obama never campaigned on a public option for health insurance." He didn't

He campaigned on health care reform, with one component being a public option.

Transcript: Obama Talks With PBS' Jim Lehrer

<...>

MR. LEHRER: And let's say, for instance, the public-option plan: It's in - it's in the House version; it's not in the Senate version.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Right.

MR. LEHRER: All right. What is - what's going to be your position when you sit down and talk about this?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: You know, look, I've been in favor of the public option. I think the more choice, the more competition we have, the better.

On the other hand, I think that the exchange itself, the system that we're setting up that forces insurance companies to essentially bid for three million or four million or five million people's business, that in and of itself is going to have a disciplining effect.

Would I like one of those options to be the public option? Yes. Do I think that it makes sense, as some have argued, that, without the public option, we dump all these other extraordinary reforms and we say to the 30 million people who don't have coverage, "You know, sorry. We didn't get exactly what we wanted"? I don't think that makes sense.

<...>

Now, this is something people are going to have to come to grips with.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Quote: "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange, including a public option"

Is there an alternate definition of "must" that I should be working with here?

P.S.: That transcript is from after Obama was elected.

[ProSense]

4. Actual quote:

(A)ny plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family.

link

[tekisui]

5. You just proved the OP's point.

Good work!

[ProSense]

8. The Senate plan includes an insurance exchange.

It satisfies President Obama's criteria.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. "including a public option"

One of us has difficulty with the English Language tonight.

[truedelphi]

73. When people have pom poms where the grey matter should be,

There will always be problems in debating them.

Thanks for trying to get some here to understand the Great Pretender and his words and actions.

The man ran as a Progressive. He stated in one single speech given in Wisconsin in OCT 2008 that

1) His campaign monies were from small little people, not campaign donations from the Upper Elite (Not exactly true, now that some sites post how much monies he received from the Big Health Insurers and the Big Guys on Wall Street)

2) That if Main Street's fears about the Big Bailout were realized, and that if it
was apparent that the money offered to the banks was not returning via loans back to Main Street, that he would DURING HIS FIRST YEAR in office, create regulations and stipulations that would force the Big Banks to treat the average person better

Well, he got in office, and all he did was scold the Big Banks. So I guess he changed his mind

3) He said repeatedly tahtt a stong public option would be part of the bill.

Oh well, you cannot expect a guy to follow every little cotton pickin' thing he said while running for office. Or to honor every single cotton pickin' little pledge he made. He's a politican, don't cha know?

[Cherchez la Femme]

88. Why I never put that particular poster on ignore:

The pure entertainment value

...the lulz never stop! :D

[Moochy]

148. Generally in favor of sense but deeply conflicted given my intentions

While more accurate it would not fit in the new username box.

[tekisui]

12. Maybe President Obama, but not Candidate Obama:

"...including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest..."

[ProSense]

13. Actually, both. n/t

[tekisui]

14. "...including a public option..." Why do keep ignoring that?

[ProSense]

16. Why do you keep ignoring

this: "(A)ny plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans..."

The emphasis was on the exchange and its functionality.

[tekisui]

18. I accept that part of the quote, you deny the rest.

Please tell me exactly what these words mean:

including a public option

[ProSense]

19. No, "including a public option"

doesn't mean to hell with the rest of the bill.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

24. Obtuse is believing the President is going to scrap reform

because it doesn't include a public option.

[tekisui]

42. I didn't suggest that he would.

God, you are tedious. But, you cannot claim that he didn't campaign on it, or that he didn't say including a public option.

What is your going rate, anyway? I could do your job if paid enough.

[rhett o rick]

69. You are trying to put words in his/her mouth. We dont want scrapping, we want a PO. nt

[ClassWarrior]

44. No. It means that he said it must include a public option. Which was the OP's point.

NGU.

[saracat]

65. Sorry. You were proved wrong. Again

[Jakes Progress]

75. Lying is lying. Playing games with syntax

is a coward's game. If Obama wants to duck out on what he said by defining the word "is" over and over, then the people will see him as a weasel. If he (and his ardent gang and his press office) would just fess up and say "We aren't going to do what we said we would. We can't do it. We are being beaten by lies and ignorance. We are going to sign something - anything - because we think that is what we need to stay in office. Sorry about copping out on what I said. Politics is tough."

Then he wouldn't be a weasel.

[DissedByBush]

96. Simple English parsing will save you

"(A)ny plan I sign must include an insurance exchange:"

That's his promise in short, an insurance exchange. That's an independent clause, capable of being a sentence in itself.

Then there's a colon. This fits the syntactical-descriptive use of the colon where what comes after the colon describes what comes before it. In this case:

"a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family."

Those who stress the "insurance exchange" part are bolstering the argument of the "public option" side because a public option is part of the description of the insurance exchange.

A plan without the public option is not an insurance exchange as described in his promise back then.

[freddie mertz]

198. "INCLUDING a public option"....You missed that part, ProSense.

It was not "that would preferably include" or "including, if possible" ..

THERE WAS NO QUALIFIER.

Your issue is with Obama's SPEECH WRITER, not with those of us who have heard and read the quote a thousand times.

In fact, I strongly recall that back in summer, YOU YOURSELF used to link to the quote as "proof" that the final plan WOULD CERTAINLY include a "robust" PO.

[rhett o rick]

67. It satisfies President Obama's criteria for who? Not me. Not the American public.

Only the DLC/republicans that think people dying from no health care will solve the unemployment problem.

[krawhitham]

29. NO, that statement was 9 MONTHS after he was elected

[MannyGoldstein]

7. Here's The Video

Go to 0:57 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaKV2gGjEpk

[Lorien]

56. That's exactly what the OP said. Sorry, you can't spin this one. nt

[Hosnon]

63. Based on that quote, the OP is right.

"Any hotel room I stay in must have a bathroom: a sanitary room - including a bathtub - where I can get clean in the morning."

Many, many sentences are ambiguous. The one quoted in your post is not.

[tavalon]

177. If you're trying to argue against the OP you made a really bad mistake with that quote

You did his work for him.

I would say, "you lose" but we all lose so that is a petty, petty game.

[ProSense]

6. Nice edit.

:rofl:

[MannyGoldstein]

9. It's Verbatim From His Own Ad

Go to 0:57 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaKV2gGjEpk

[defendandprotect]

138. Thank you, MannyGoldstein -- thanks for truth --- we need it here at DU--!!

[tavalon]

176. It depends on what your definition of "is" is

I didn't like the Clintonian compromise style government the first time. Why the fuck do I want a Clintonian redux? We needed an FDR and we got Big Dog. We didn't need another Big Dog.

[jeanpalmer]

34. That interview took place in December 2009

The campaign took place in 2008.

[ooglymoogly]

92. Anyone else want a snort from that rose colored gin bottle you are trying to pass around.

I'll take a pass, thanx. Your O hallelujah chorus is just a little way off key for me these days. I'll just stick with reality if you don't mind.

[Orsino]

192. Yep. This parsing might not be completely fair...

...but neither is calling him a liar for downplaying the public option after its death.

[freddie mertz]

197. Link does not disprove facts presented in the OP.

Fail.

[denimgirly]

10. Obama is a corporate democrat -- i just wished people came to terms with that.

When campaigning he will be populist but while in washington he will be a corporate democrat. His decisions thus far have all been catered in favor of the corporation and not so much for the people.

I thank the OP for putting this out there so we can all move forward without rose-covered glasses (or whatever that thing is) and understand who Obama really is.

[ooglymoogly]

95. Corporate Democrat is an oxymoron.

maybe that is why it is apropos. They are dino's and it is time we started calling them that before the Democratic party is totally destroyed.

[Aaria]

126. Regretably we haven is a vulture in the congress, it has a right and left wing.....

but they are both trying to eat us for lunch. What we are seeing now is political theater. Anything to split the country.

[ooglymoogly]

170. They need the appearance of a divided country to get away with the treason they are pulling.

My take; The country is not divided, I believe the true certifiable loons of the pug party make up only 30% if that; Another 10% are moderates who, by family history are republicans and vote the way corpmedia tells them to vote while never having a clue. Another 10% are simply made up from whole cloth by the pugs and their wholly owned subsidiary corpmedia to give the appearance of an even divide to cram corpfascist policies down our throats. That non existent 10% lie is covered by diebold et al at the voting booth and criminal pug shenanigans; All made whole by a criminal corpmeda.

[Aaria]

189. The media is the big problem, they say that the Con is winning by 2%,

diebild set the machines to give the "reported" out come and no one is the wiser. The Rat that's in office doesn't say anything cause he knows where and who butters the bread. Too many lamp posts in DC going unused.

[defendandprotect]

140. We can do it this way, perhaps: A corporate "Democrat" . . ????

[Mithreal]

149. Much more appropriate. The Third Way'ers need to own their version of change.

[Mithreal]

151. +1 They don't call it Third Way for nothing.

[BrklynLiberal]

15. K&R

[denimgirly]

17. Seeing as how this OP has to even be made is sad cuz the Big Picture is he HATES the PO.

Thank you MannyGoldstein for this OP. I just find it sad that you have to write something like this to dispell the myths on DU when the big picture is that Obama just refuses to even take serious the idea of a public option to control costs and create competition. Yes, it is clear he DID campaign on it but if there are people out there fighting to say he did not campaign on it i ask these people why do you think Obama is so oposed to the idea of actually having a PO or pretty much ANYTHING that can control cost?

[Fruittree]

36. Whether he campaigned on it or not it beside the point..

By what you and others have written you're suggesting that had he been sent a bill with the public option in it, he would not have signed it because he "hates the po". Do you really believe that? Or is it possible that between right leaning Democrats, Republican who refuse to vote for anything he wants and a public fed on Fox news, he's passing what he can for now with more to come later?

[rhett o rick]

71. "he's passing what he can for now with more to come later". Get real. If he cant do it now he will

never be able to. How many more people have to die before he takes a stand? Maybe he will lose, but go down doing the right thing. Not caving into the DLC/repukes.

[defendandprotect]

141. Once you put insurance and pharma in, you'd never get them out-- bad idea!!

Also tends to sound like someone's secret plan to end the war in Vietnam? Nixon?

[ooglymoogly]

103. Lullaby and goodnight.....Now go to sleep little children...

Don't worry your little minds about the machinations of us grown ups; We'll wake you when the next election comes round; When there will be all new fairytales to tell and lots of pretend lollipops to go round....well, at least, disguised as new anyway.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fruittree]

54. Nice language..

I presume you're describing your post?

[JTFrog]

62. Oh goodie the language police has arrived.

Just in time....

:eyes:

[Fruittree]

64. Apparently so...

[JTFrog]

66. Fuck fuckity fuck fuck fuck! n/t

[Fruittree]

70. I'm not sure -

Am I supposed to be shocked and leave in dismay? What exactly is the point of your posts? I made a point and asked a question. You could have disagreed and given me your reason for your beliefs - that's fine but the attacks and whatever this latest is supposed to be - I don't get...At any rate you can keep it - Maybe this isn't a place for exchange of opinions and discussion as I thought. Much better to go out and play with the dogs...
Have a nice evening..

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fruittree]

74. Actually I don't think I will stick around -

And of course you can use whatever language you like - I'm realizing that these sites are not really for discussion so much as for shouting each other down which I don't enjoy. As far as the language issue, I guess for me it's too indicative of a general rudeness that I see growing in society and I don't like it. Failing to respect and care for other people's feelings and thoughts is the source of all bad things in my opinion. It then just becomes a matter of scale. My apologies if what I said bothered you or if I offended you in some way but I guess I feel strongly enough about it that I said what I felt.
I sincerely hope you enjoy the rest of your day - language or not.

[JTFrog]

102. I have no respect for those that trash our president on a daily basis without a single positive

thing to input, such as the post I responded to in the first place. But I guess I feel strongly enough about it that I said what I felt.

See how that works both ways?

And I don't feel compelled to cater to someone who interjects themselves into the conversation as the language police.

[ooglymoogly]

118. Rahm; is that you stamping your little feet.

Have you ever thought perhaps, to apply your sig line to your own words....poetic and profound as they are.

[JTFrog]

122. Fuck is a pretty versatile word.

Are you sure I'm using it wrong?

:eyes:

[ooglymoogly]

157. But is it the right word?

Do you think "Mark Twain" might have used such a word as a generic repeater with his exquisite vocabulary? After its first use it loses it's gob smack and becomes just an ersatz, or a mundane lack of, vocabulary.

[flyarm]

91. Welcome to DU Fruittree, do not think all of us here at DU are that ugly!!

Glad to have you here and your voice!!

fly

[JTFrog]

116. "he HATES the PO"....

is a shit statement.

[Mithreal]

152. Probably right, couldn't muster that level of emotional commitment.

[democrat2thecore]

20. THANK YOU.

Some people can be fooled easily (see the corporate health-care lackey in this thread above) - some of us know we were LIED to. With a public option and/or more progressive reform it would be wildly popular. Thanks again, Mr. President.

[ProSense]

23. Some people understand that

all or nothing is a foolish position when thousands of people are dying.

[democrat2thecore]

25. Some people also understand that

changing positions to curry favor with big business has become epidemic in this White House.

[ProSense]

28. Some people understand

bogus claims.

[rhett o rick]

68. How can you be a Democrat if you support CorpAmerica over the middle class? nt

[asdjrocky]

85. Some people understand that you are full of bs too.

Just sayin'.

[liberation]

89. I am starting to get real scared right about now...

This sure as heck is ain't change, if I am seeing the same detachment from reality as the Bush fans did display during the 8 years of fun and games we just went through as some of the hardcore DLCites in this site are starting to display. The capacity for making up their own reality and facts that seem to be subjugated to their narrative, is also eerly similar.

Seeing things that would have been unjustifiable under the Bush regime, now all of the sudden being not only defended but even sold by some members of DU was most definitively not what I was expecting to be witnessing after the first year of a Dem administration under Obama.

Everyday it looks more and more like we're stuck in an episode of the Twilight Zone. Good grief.

[asdjrocky]

90. More like a strange version of 1984 to me.

2 + 2 is no longer 4. Whole speeches and promises falling down the memory hole.

Yes, it is strange.

[flyarm]

117. actually that would be alot of people around here get it about a certain faction !! eom

[liberation]

86. Oh, the irony of your projection is just too precious for words.

LOLz

[Mimosa]

32. We were lied to and sold down the river on health care. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. How about the notion that a 'reform' bill which does NOT reform -

which does not control costs or provide competition for the insurance cartel - means that there will be nothing to stop those thousands from dying anyway.

What this bill does do is lock out any REAL reform for another generation at least.

[totodeinhere]

49. We don't expect everything to be enacted all at once. But this bill will not stop the dying that ...

you are talking about, and that's why I'm opposed to it.

[rhett o rick]

98. Funny you should put it that way. The thousands of people dying should be a reason for

the president to fight for the PO and saving their lives and not "maybe we can fix it later" and save your life.

The fact that the president isnt fighting for decent health care to save lives is immoral and unconscionable. He has caved to the pressure from big insurance.

[Sebastian Doyle]

99. "thousands of people are dying" because of GREEDY FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT INSURANCE CRIMINALS.

And you want to ensure their continued greed by forcing every one to pay them.

That is not a solution, that is making the problem worse.

[demwing]

100. He LIED Prosense

Obama LIED. How does that make you feel?

[ProSense]

105. I accept that some people are delusional

How does that make you feel?

[demwing]

112. I feel EXACTLY the same as you

some people, when faced with evidence they've been lied to, would rather redefine truth than face the betrayal.

[GinaMaria]

193. Seriously? I think you would have declared the Titanic

a successful journey because there were lifeboats for some of the people on board. Everyone is in the same boat with health care. We are all, every last one of us, in this together. Everyone needs access to health care and insurance does not guarantee access. Many have died with insurance because they were denied access. They are motivated by controlling and limiting access. That's where the profit is. Most people don't think the Titanic voyage was a success because so many were left without lifeboats. There are a lot of people who don't think the Insurance company bailout bill is a success because too many are left without lifeboats/access to health care.

[Clio the Leo]

22. Unfortunately, the polls aren't worth the paper they're printed on...

.... which is saying something because I imagine they're all digital anyway.

TOO many of the polls use generalized questions that dont explain what the bill/s offer. Now, on one hand I suppose hand that's the admin's fault for not explaining it clearly, but it's also kind of hard to run an awareness campaign on something that is still being created. When a particular poll asks questions that describe what HCR might do, the numbers go up. That's the problem with opinion polls, the questions skew the reults.

Poll are nice for studying trends over time, but as I always say, the ONLY polls that matter are the ones we go to in November.

[Hardrada]

26. And that's just the problem in a nutshell.

[bvar22]

27. Obama did indeed campaign on a Public Option "like Medicare".

He also STRONGLY opposed the Individual Mandate, ridiculing Hillary for supporting them, and detailing WHY they were bad for Americans.

He also campaigned AGAINST the "Cadillac Tax" which now appears in Obama's Bill:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x420430

During the campaign, Obama was crystal clear about how he would pay for HCR,
by raising taxes on the top 2%.

[katandmoon]

30. K&R

[impik]

33. THEY DON'T HAVE THE F********G VOTES IN CONGRESS. HOW MANY TIMES THIS SHOULD BE SAID

until you brilliants get it?

[depakid]

37. Your screaming about doesn't make it so

but all of the excuse making really does make the president look weak and ineffectual.

[dionysus]

55. yeah, we have 60 DKs in the senate, all rearing for single payer, but that mean 'ol obama is

stopping them...

damn you guys are reality challenged...

[depakid]

80. Here's what reality looks like for weak and ineffectual leaders (and members of congress)

Train beats bus.

[ObamaismyPresident]

48. That could change

We need to contact our elected officials. They work for us, they should give us a public option. Even the poorest nations of the world have it, why a nation so great as ours can't have a public health care system?

[totodeinhere]

50. Then instead of ringing their hands they should be working aggressively to get those votes.

Positions can be changed. It happens with politicians all the time. Obama has got to play some Chicago style hardball and make them change their votes.

[Lorien]

57. They have a majority and they can choose to twist arms

just as BushCo did when they DID NOT have the majority. The problem is that Obama no longer supports a Public Option.

[quiet.american]

59. That's not true. nt

[demwing]

101. He LIED Impik

Obama LIED to you, and to all of us.

[jeff47]

114. One does not have to START with enough votes

One only has to END with enough votes.

"Leadership" is how you get between those two points, and nobody in the party is doing any of that.

[Aaria]

129. Political theater, heres how it works....

1. Bring up a bill that will surly divide the people, All someone has to do is call it socialist and it's on the shit list.
.
2. Make a half hearted effort to get it passed.
.
3. Send a half baked bill to the House to have them kick it around.
.
4. Come back with a bill that is a big give away to the people that are bending over the public already, cause you don't want to piss off the people with the money.
.
5. Now, proclaim that this is just the start and we can fix it after it's enacted, like , Clinton said with NAFTA.
.
6. Get the talking heads on the left to back it, saying that we have to start somewhere, and everyone will sit quietly as the curtain closes.

It's just a game, we get to see the show, we've paid for the tickets, so we have to get something, and the managers behind the scene get to go to the bank.

Flame on and eat your veggies.

[frylock]

146. there's only one way to prove that they don't have the votes..

try and figure out how, genius.

[tavalon]

181. Theres our problem right there

We need to get representatives who listen to other than their corporate masters.

[ChicagoSuz219]

35. It ain't over yet... ;-) n/t

[Jennicut]

38. Of course Obama campaigned on a public option. Getting the votes was the issue.

If you think our Senate wanted a public option that is some real imaginative thinking there. Was Obama weak for backing down too easily? You can make that case. But to say that Obama secretly wanted to stick it to us once he got elected is pretty laughable. The Senate gave him a hard time and he backed down fast. End of story.
Also, if anyone thinks that all of the Senators signing the public option letter REALLY want it, they are just kidding themselves. Some of the Senators I buy wanting it, others are doing it to make themselves look good to liberal voters while getting to not vote on a public option. Public relations ploy in my opinion.

[totodeinhere]

51. Then maybe in 2012 we should elect another president who won't back down so easily.

And while we are at it we can replace some of those Dinos in the Senate who oppose a robust public option with some true progressives who will stand up for the best interests of the American people.

[Jennicut]

52. Easier said then done.

Also, we have tried a primary before against a sitting Dem President. He lost.

[Aaria]

130. WE The People Havn't elected a prez in quite a while, and thats not going to change.

[demwing]

104. If you don't have the strength of your convictions

then you really don't believe what you say. Obama said what needed to be said to get elected, and then once elected, said what he seemed to think he needed to say to get what he wanted - bipartisan support for HCR.

To me, saying whatever happens to get you what you what at the moment is the same as lying.

[JTFrog]

40. "If the facts are kept in mind, motives become clear"

DU is now the place to think up CT's about Obama wanting to stick it to Americans?

:crazy::crazy:All ur Base R Belong to Us.:crazy::crazy:

This place couldn't have turned into a bigger joke over the last year.



:eyes: :thumbsdown: :eyes:

[asdjrocky]

87. I know!

You know what I'd do if I were you? I would fucking leave and never, ever come back. That'll show us.

This place is just disgusting.

[JTFrog]

106. You should do it anyway. n/t

[asdjrocky]

110. You first.

[JTFrog]

111. Figured you were all talk. n/t

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flyarm]

147. don't let the door hit you on your way out!! bye bye!! eom

[JTFrog]

166. pathetic. n/t

[flyarm]

168. Ditto you former post! eom

[DCBob]

41. The President can ask for lots of things but if congress does not deliver them he cant force it...

Politics is all about compromises and deals and negotiations. Surprised someone who appears so knowledgeable about politics does not understand that by now.

[newtothegame]

43. Manny, President Obama is exactly what he appeared to be during the campaign.

His voting record, or lack of one in some people's opinion, was right there clear as day for anyone to review. Anyone that couldn't see past the fainting millions and expected something other than what we got needs to take a long, hard look at how they use their vote.

[JTFrog]

45. "fainting millions"?

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

142. Look, let's face it, we were given no real choices . . . TPB select those we vote for ....!!!

But, the candidate himself has to handle the deception of lying to the public ....

eventually!!

And, Manny has laid it out for us --

I'm sure it's "hard" -- as Obama has been saying . . . remember Bush saying how "hard"

he worked!! It must be in a real pain in the rear to have those who BRIBED you with

corporate money calling the shots in your White House!!

IMO, we have to change this corporate power, but meanwhile can we at least make it

D E V I A N T to take money from corporations??? GOP is demonizing everyone all the time.

Can't we at least make it bad news to take money from corporations?????

At least that?????????????

[flyarm]

160. exactly!! Bingo!!! +10,000..eom

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DisgustedInMN]

46. K & R No need to add to the ...

... the beating the usual spinmeister is getting for yet again rewriting history. We are getting screwed and Barack Obama IS THE ONE making it happen. PERIOD.

[ObamaismyPresident]

47. Right-wingers propaganda won't kill the public option

It's pretty clear that Americans want the public option. We are the majority, we are. We will make our voices heard. We need to call our Senators and Representative and urge them to support a bill with the public option. Right wingers' propaganda won't kill justice. We are stronger than them.

[Tsiyu]

84. Welcome to DU OIMP

:hi:

I wish I had your optimism.

Right now, I'm pretty damned disgusted.


But don't let all of us old geezers keep you from your hope...SOMEBODY'S gotta have some.

[ObamaismyPresident]

194. Hope's the last thing we should lose!

I know they'll end up doing the right thing... And thanks for the welcome! ;)

[Faryn Balyncd]

53. You nailed it....and passing any pseudo;"reform" without a public plan will destroy us.

k and r


:hi:



:kick:

[defendandprotect]

143. Agree 1000% . . . just perpetuates the nonsense that insurance/pharma have a role in this ...$$$$$

and quite costly for taxpayers!!!

[Lorien]

58. Obama: "I happen to be a proponent of a single payer health care plan."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE

That evaporated too, didn't it? Now he won't even allow OTHER proponents a seat at the table!

[quiet.american]

60. Exactly what "motives" become clearer, and exactly "what next steps."

My biggest issue with this OP is the tunnel vision.

Democrats are about to pass health legislation that will not only help millions of people by improving their access to healthcare and quality of life, but will also do that for future generations, as well as pay down the debt for those generations. The Senate's only "out" Socialist is on board with HCR, but we're still doing Election 2008?!

Come on.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[democrank]

76. K & R

[Mike 03]

77. Fantastic. Kick and Rec to the End of the Universe. NT

[scentopine]

78. The truth couldn't be more obvious but the centrists will claim

it depends on what the meaning of truth is. For the centrists, its all for sale on the "free" market, even truth and justice.

[ProSense]

79. Jonathan Chait: Health Care Reform And Our Myopic Polity

here

Enjoy!

[customerserviceguy]

81. I did look at the poll you cited

It's from mid-December. That's before the election in Massachusetts, which makes it rather dated at this time. I'd be interested in seeing a fresher poll (with many more than 800 respondents) before trying to describe what Americans want.

I would imagine there are some Democratic congresscritters in purple districts that would like to see the same thing.

[Tsiyu]

82. Why is Obama ignoring America's plight

so blatanty? We elected him for change, but now he just wants to play Joe Cool.

Does every modern president arrive at the White House and suddenly believe that American voters are stupid, blind and forgetful?

Public Option. Public Option. Public Option. IT'S WHAT WE WANT!!!!!!!!

If the goddamned greedy fucking Congress can't give it to us, take away their fucking Cadillac GOVERNMENT FUNDED health care plans until we get one for all of us.

It's that fucking simple.

They get no decent health care until we all do.

Legislators in the US seem to think they are demi-gods and the rest of us just get to watch longingly as they live nice lives on our dime.

FUCKING SCUM. And Obama seems too much of a coward to fight for us now.

Disgusting, pathetic "leaders" we've got, in my opinion.

[flyarm]

162. answer..$$$$$ $$$$ $$$ $$$ eom

[Goldstein1984]

83. It's called bait-and-switch

It's a tried-and-true tactic in business and politics, and should be expected now that there is no difference between business and politics.

In Obama's case, the pattern of promising change and delivering status quo is clear; making rousing speeches followed by inaction is the methodology.

If we continue to restrict ourselves to the lesser or greater of two evils (Democrat or Republican), then we'll continue to wonder where the evil keeps coming from. Time for a third party. Yes, the road will be rocky; yes, things will get worse before they get better; yes, the status quo will make us suffer for rejecting them. But rejecting the status quo is the first step.

[Wednesdays]

133. I agree with everything you wrote, except the 3rd Party thing...

I mean, you can ask President Strom Thurmond, President George Wallace, President John Anderson, and President Ross Perot how well that worked for them. Plus, bolting and forming a separate party would virtually guarantee a President Palin in 2012.

I agree we need to generate a major rebellion, but it must stay within the party.

[Goldstein1984]

172. I haven't been a registered Democrat since 1999, when

it became clear the party was drifting to the right and becoming Republican Lite.

Both parties are morally bankrupt. I'd be ashamed to be a member of either one.

President Palin would be that rough road on the way to something better that I mentioned.

[defendandprotect]

144. We need IRV voting . .. .

and Green Party continues to work on that -- we need it desperately!!!

[flyarm]

93. Thank you Manny for a great thread..what I always taught my children ..the truth will always prevail

No matter how many propagandists they send here, That still rings true because of people like you!!!! Thank you, thank you !

fly

[wial]

94. you do have to wonder

what motivates them to act like clear facts about how the public views this are not the case. Who has them over a barrel that they have to prevaricate like this?

[Hansel]

97. Not really myths. Just your interpretation.

1. Obama ran on providing affordable health care for all and was very clear that he wanted to work within the current insurance structure to do so. He might have mentioned the public option, but it was not the center piece of his health care reform. I attended his rallies and don't even remember him mentioning it. To say he ran on the public option is a bit of stretch. His primary campaign promise was to provide every American who wants it with access to affordable health care. That was what he ran on. It's disingenuous at best to say he "campaigned on the public option" like that was the center piece of his plan.

When he was president he did push the public option at his rallies. I also attended the one he had in Minneapolis. But he did not do a major push for it during the campaign. I can say that from 1st hand experience.

He also ran on "no mandate" and I wish he wouldn't have been talked out of the stance. I think with a decent exchange that most people will get health care on their own without holding this over them. Especially if at some point a public option is added. But I do believe if you get sick and you could have afforded the insurance but now are saying you can't pay, that you should pay the fine. I don't really feel like paying for people who play Russian roulette with their health on the back of everyone else because they have never been sick before. There's a first time for everything and it's just a part of being a responsible citizen to have your ass covered.

2. When the individual pieces of the health care plan are polled the overwhelming response is positive. There have been so many lies and intentional misrepresentations of the bill I don't think most people even know what it in it. There has been a concerted effort to paint the bill in a negative light from the left, the right, the media, Republicans who want Obama's health care defeat to be his Waterloo, and the insurance industry through the Chamber of Commerce and other lobbyists.

People poll negatively about what they've heard about the bill, but most haven't got a clue of what is in it. When the polls are much higher for the individual aspects of the bill, the negative polling numbers are about something else, not the bill itself.

And yes, most people like the public option and it is really baffling why they didn't include it. Well not that baffling. They were bribed by the insurance companies not to.

This bill is a start and it needs to be passed. Because the alternative is going to be much much worse.

[demwing]

109. So only the "Primary" promises are relevant

And all the "musts" "wills" and verious small promises are just grease for the grinder? Is that change we can believe in?

[Hansel]

123. The OP claims he campaigned on the Public Option.

He campaigned on affordable health care for all who wanted it. It's disingenuous at best to say he "campaigned on the public option" as if that was the center piece of his campaign on health care.

Is that change you can believe in? Misrepresenting what the spirit of what he said in order to fit your political agenda? The central point of Obama's campaign was that he would work with anyone who geniunely wanted to work with him to come up with solutions. He would put forward his ideas and accept good ideas from others. He made no bones about that. Where in that philosophy can it co-exist that he's going to Washington and demand everything he wants? Where in that management style do you get that he was going to act like a dictator?

So again, he did push for the public option very hard last summer, but he didn't get anywhere with it. But he did not make a public option the center point of his campaign. And it is disingenuous to say he did.

[ProSense]

124. This statement in the OP is misleading

But this is not the truth. He campaigned on it ("Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange, including a public option")...

That statement was in fact made last summer, not during the campaign.

Also, a month later the President said the public option was a sliver of reform. Of course, that opened him up to charges that he never supported a public option, which makes this current frenzy ironic.

:rofl:

[MannyGoldstein]

128. That's From A Campaign Ad - Watch the Videos nt

[ProSense]

131. That is not from a campaign ad.

"Any bill I sign" is not from a campaign ad.

[demwing]

191. This rebuttal of the OP is misleading

Not sure why you're laughing ProSense:

If you want to debate timing of various Obama quotes where he supported a Public Option BEFORE he was elected, then let's review the Daily Kos post:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/22/818090/-President-Obama:-I-Didnt-Campaign-on-the-Public-Option

There are many statements from 2007 and 2008 form Obama, such as:

"For those without health insurance I will establish a new public insurance program, and provide subsides to afford care for those who need them. " 2008

"Expand Medicaid and SCHIP and create the National Health Insurance Exchange through which small businesses and individuals without access to other public programs or employer-based coverage could enroll in a new public plan, like Medicare, or in a range of approved private plans. " 2007

"Through the Exchange, any American will have the opportunity to enroll in the new public plan or purchase an approved private plan, and income-based sliding scale subsidies will be provided for people and families who need it. " 2007

CLEARLY, Obama promoted the Public Option before winning the presidency. Also, the case can be made that "campaigning" can include campaigning for HCR, after being elected President, which is where the OP's quote originated.

Now if you want to tear that quote down because of improper use of quote marks or ellipses, that's your own choice, but the FACT is that the original quote, properly formatted or not, spoke to the OP's defense. Obama was very plainly stating the following:

"any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange"

then Obama defines an Insurance Exchange:

"a one-stop shopping marketplace"

And what can you do there?

"where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans"

And of all the plans that would be included, which one did Obama single out?

"including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest"

So, after really reading the quotes, pre-election, and post-election, and after ignoring your attempts to discredit a post because or formatting issues - issues that in no way affect the content of the quote, and after being proven so simply wrong, I ask again ProSense, why ARE you laughing?

[MannyGoldstein]

127. Watch The Videos, And Then We'll Talk

Seriously, this is pretty cut and dry.

[ProSense]

132. What's clear is you have no idea what you posted. n/t

[YOY]

119. This thread is fascinating.

n.t.

[asdjrocky]

120. Ain't it though?

:hi:

[YOY]

187. Some folks are really living in a bubble.

and it 'taint you brother...

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

183. Obamacare?

Perhaps you should be more aware of the origins of what you post on DU.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

186. Whatever you say Ms. Malkin. n/t

[icee]

188. Yeah, right....

[Robeson]

139. You've made heads explode...

...and the mental gymnastics revealed on this thread, is a beauty to watch...:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

145. Hi Manny . . . just want to add that I heard Sen. Bernie Sanders on ...

some show yesterday -- Thom Hartmann, maybe?

And, he was saying that he's sure we can do MEDICARE FOR ALL for what it is costing

us now --

and I'd say, probably less as we got control over costs and offered preventive health

care.

Obama knows this, of course -- and thanks for making the TRUTH so clear!!!

Keep at it --

:loveya:

[Mithreal]

153. +1

[Moochy]

150. K&R

To make up for the copycat thread

[johnaries]

154. I've never seen either of those claims on DU.

Maybe I've just missed them, but considering that I am on DU every day (yes, I'm a DU addict) I could not consider those "common" claims. But, yes, you are correct if someone actually tried to argue those points that they were categorically wrong.

I agree whole-heartedly with your statement "If we're to make progress, it's important that we all move forward with clarity. If the facts are kept in mind, motives become clearer - as do our next steps."

And that is why I argue on the side of PASSING the current bill, with the corrections the House is demanding passing via reconciliation.

To be completely honest, most of the "spin" and non-factual rhetoric I have seen has come from the anti-HCR crowd.

Such as this post - to imply that 2 very minor incorrect arguments are in fact the whole of the argument, or at least major arguments.

Nothing could be farther from the Truth.

I can only deduce that when the FACTS are considered, you cannot argue against them and therefore have to make up strawmen arguments. This is a very deceptive practice, and one that the RW is very adept at.

Yes, I want single-payer. I also want to win the lottery. Neither are feasible at this point. In lieu of single-payer I would like a Public Option. There is still some hope, but I'm not holding my breath.

But when you look at the FACTS, as you recommend, even without a PO the bill is a very PROGRESSIVE bill and does much to help the average American.

So, do you really want to "keep facts in mind" as you say? Or do you want to keep making up your own reality and let millions of Americans suffer because of it?

[MannyGoldstein]

155. I Saw Both On Sunday

Including an OP about how the mainstream media isn't telling the truth about how most people want the current "reform" bill, with a dozen or so agreeing posts (and one or two disagreeing, one of those being mine). Calling that post out would be (I think) against the rules, but it shouldn't be hard to search for.

I'll bet if we do a DU poll in a few days, we'll find a fair chunk of folks who have both misconceptions.

I know that it's shocking - that's why I posted.

[donheld]

156. Thank you Manny!

[bertman]

158. Thank you, Manny. REC. We are now in the "Low-Expectation Zone" where, having been told

over and over and over and over again that there is no way we can expect real reform or a robust public option, we should be willing to say "Oh Great. Let's be happy we have a weak, half-assed health reform bill, with a strong, whole-ass (asshole?) insurance company bailout.

[Bluesbreaker]

159. K&R. Thanks, Manny, about time someone set it straight

Not only do your points fly in the face of the MSM meme, but also that of Rahm Emanuel.

[ooglymoogly]

161. KR for "getting it" nt

[garybeck]

163. rk (everyone says kr. why not rk?)

[defendandprotect]

164. K&R --

[Vidar]

165. K&R.

[leftstreet]

167. K&R

[golfguru]

169. Kick & Recommend as the best post of month n/t

[ProSense]

171. The best

fact-free post of the month.

[ooglymoogly]

173. Ahhh; Simpleton jocularity; It's a joy to behold;

For those who study such behavior.

[ProSense]

174. You're right

"It's a joy to behold."

The inaccuracy in the OP is actually a fact, right?

[ooglymoogly]

178. The obtuse angles of your argument are becoming frayed

and somewhat desperate and I am afraid they will soon fly off at even odder angles. The fact that we are sparring at going on 3: in the morning, would appear to make any arguments either of us make a little tetched.

[ooglymoogly]

179. +1

[tavalon]

175. I'm a nurse with 20 years of experience in "healthcare"

Pardon my language, but fuck the public option. Medicare for all is the only appropriate choice. Unfortunately, the sleight of hand that made sure single payer wasn't on the table is also making sure there's nothing helpful of the sort in this insurance giveaway, I mean "healthcare reform".

It was totally fucked up from the git go. And I think we might need some Act Up activism to get these mouth breathing troglodytes who supposedly run our government to step up and do the right thing.

[ooglymoogly]

180. +1

[icee]

185. +1

[GinaMaria]

195. + 1 RN

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[David Zephyr]

190. K&R.

First, great OP and thanks for the reality check with facts.

I think that it only sometimes seems that the majority of DU'ers have these misconceptions because of the preponderance in the number of posts of a very few DU'ers who support this corporate giveaway in the Senate. Last week, I began looking at how many DU'ers here posted against this bill as opposed to how many DU'ers supported it. It became obvious that the great majority of us oppose this bill. It doesn't "seem" that way because of how many posts are cluttering up the forums from a very tiny group of posters who for whatever reason are feverishly motivated to generate thread after thread and to interject themselves into other threads. It gives a false impression.

See this poll, which I began last night, to give some awareness as to where the DU really stands on this issue. It's exactly what I suspected and it should give you some heart. Your opinion on this matter is the same as mine, and guess what? You are in the great majority here. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7873852

[GinaMaria]

196. K and R

[Moochy]

199. here's one

1) DU is a progressive website.