It is so FUCKING EASING to sit in the corner, pout and complain about that the HCR bill is a sellout

[wndycty]

It is so FUCKING EASY.

We are the verge on some historic legislation, even as watered down as this bill is, it is historic.

I'm so sick and fucking tired of those ON THE LEFT who have done nothing but pouted the whole time throughout this battle, the only time they have lifted a finger is to COMPLAIN.

This bill is far from perfect, but I ask, name me one bill that was perfect the minute it was passed and signed into law.

President Obama has a ton of room for improvement and he is not above criticism, but some of the belly aching I see here is just fucking laughable and shameless.

Despite what many here and elsewhere want to believe the man is doing what he needs to do to serve the American people, ALL OF US!

P.S. The man is not a corporate DLC whore as some would lead you believe, HE IS GOD DAMNED PROGRESSIVE who, as any EFFECTIVE CHIEF EXECUTIVE must do, is pragmatic. This pragmatism irks the hell out of me, but I understand and appreciate it.

[Xipe Totec]

1. I wish they *would* sit in a corner, instead of blocking the aisles nt

[wndycty]

3. LOL

:kick:

[FrenchieCat]

5. Or just leave the damn store altogether,

cause they are just taking up space at this point.

[bvar22]

25. Will you feel the same in November?

Maybe a purge of Liberals is what is needed.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

31. +1 even though I'll admit I should take more responsibility to avoid them to begin with. n/t

[Phx_Dem]

32. Good one.

:fistbump:

[kestrel91316]

2. K&R

[kstewart33]

4. Well said.

Tired of the 'all or nothing' mantra.

Geez, if this view had prevailed, we'd never have gotten Social Security or Medicare.

Far from a perfect bill, but historic reform nevertheless.

Teddy R., Truman, JFK, LBJ and even Nixon were pro reform. Many tried, all failed. Until Obama - IF the votes are there tomorrow.

[Junkdrawer]

6. Spin from "wretched" to "not perfect" then to "historic"...

Stop. My inner ear can't take it....

[SeattleGirl]

9. You could always plug your ears.

:)

[FrenchieCat]

13. Or leave the room.

[Tippy]

7. My feelings exactly...

:thumbsup:

[SeattleGirl]

8. Agreed.

And thank you!

[golfguru]

10. The bill is a huge reward to private insurers

They get guaranteed 32 million new customers.
They get guaranteed mandates.
There is no limit to how high they can charge us.
They will just pass on the cost of accepting people with pre-conditions
to ALL policy holders.

[Tippy]

14. And we are going to save HOW many lives?

[Donnachaidh]

16. yeah - they only need to hang on for 10 years

Those 30 million will NOT get healthcare immediately.

So that talking point is bullshit too.

[Tippy]

40. It is not as you say a bs talking point

I have a daughter, who is ill people like you don't really have a clue.

[Beaverhausen]

42. But if there is no bill, they won't get it EVER

Do you understand that we will probably not have this opportunity again?

[Donnachaidh]

55. that's fearmongering at it's finest -- Rove would be proud

*If you don't get it now it will never happen* *stamps feet*

Bullshit.

People will demand REAL reform -- not this POS insurance profits bill. That talking point is so old it has hair on it.

[salguine]

45. Once you figure in the co-pays and deductibles, they might not get it in 10 years, or ever.

[Donnachaidh]

56. exactly. n/t

[Sheepshank]

78. Pre-existing conditions exclusion gone immediately

Hey Donnachaidh, what kind of stupid assed comment are you trying to make that no one sees bennies for 10 years? Immediate relief of lifetime caps on coverage....designed to keep those in treatment continuing with their lifesaving treatment. Dumb dumb stupid statement there Buck. As mentioned earlier move on over or out, your statement is incorrect and irrelevant and continuation of the whine.

[cilla4progress]

17. And we get

pre-existing condition exclusion
high-risk pool
removal of lifetime caps
children up to age 26 stay on parents' policy
subsidies to low-incomers
etc. etc.

Do we walk away from this on principle, to retain the status quo? Expecting, Don Quixote-like, that after dumping this bill, we can just come right back and really get what we want?

[kath]

37. "children up to age 26" ONLY if they're full-time students and qualify as "dependents" on the

parents' tax returns, in most cases.

[golfguru]

62. Yeah but there are NO CAPS ON HOW HIGH THE PREMIUMS can be

and unless you are living under a rock, you should be aware
that the for profit private health insurers will NOT RUN LOSSES.
They will jack up rates for EVERYBODY until the added costs for
pre-conditions, no denials, etc are paid for.

[FrenchieCat]

26. That's not how it will work.......

and this is also why the bill is 2400 pages long,
cause it ain't that simple.

But if you think that 32 million insured
is more about insurance companies than about 32 million people
having access to health care, than your priorities
are that you care more about insurance companies,
thank you do about people. That's o, in that you've got company,
cause Republicans too care more about the insurance co.
than about Americans having access to health care.

[kath]

38. Access to (actually, being forced to buy) a crappy insurance policy is not in ANY way the same as

having access to CARE.

[sabrina 1]

53. 32 million forced to buy shoddy insurance from corrupt

private businesses, (which has never happened before, not even Republicans, other than Romney, have been able to achieve that long-held dream,) does not translate to health care. Threats of punishment to people already strapped for money is (unless like the tea-baggers you think all those who are dying and will continue to die for lack of adequate health care are dying on purpose because they are lazy, liberals who want everything for nothing and are a burden to the rest of us)u as President Obama once said, 'wrong and unfair'. And unconstitutional, undemocratic and no surprise, a Republican idea.

High deductibles and co-pays prevent people from getting the care they need. Do you really think the Insurance Industry who wrote this bill didn't know what they were doing?

And when they get subsidies, that is public money now being funneled into the hands of the corrupt healthcare industry. No wonder they spent hundreds of millions of dollars paying off Congress to get this bill.

And then, there are tens of millions left out of this bill. What about the other nearly 20 million who have no coverage? And what about Democrats, (Republicans I can understand) refusing to treat sick immigrants, including children?

Are you proud of the discrimination in this bill, against the elderly, the sick (higher premiums for growing old and for being sick no matter how old) and against 'brown people'?

It is a travesty. If it was a Republican bill Democrats would be up in arms, in fact, I remember during the primaries, Hillary being slammed for the very suggestion of mandated insurance and the transfer of public funds to private industry. So much for principles, because when it's your team dropping the bombs or punishing the poor, it's okay.

[golfguru]

65. +1000

[golfguru]

58. I applaud 32 million added/subsidized for HC, I don't admire no cost restrictions

on the profit making for private insurance corporations.

It is wonderful they can't refuse you for pre-conditions,
but it is disgusting that they can name their price for your
premiums to ensure their juicy profits & bonuses, WITH ZERO
RESTRICTIONS. That is the disgusting part.

[noamnety]

11. HISTORIC is not a synonym for GOOD.

The patriot act was historic.

[Junkdrawer]

12. Well, it's true that the Patriot Act was not perfect...

It's just so fucking easy to pout and complain about torture... :sarcasm:

[Windy]

15. I want the whiners to explain to me HOW we could get single payer or a PO when the votes were NEVER

there!!!!

We can barely get the health care reform bill we may be getting!

Something is better than nothing at all and if the dems had undertaken to go all or nothing with single payer or reform with a public option, we would be getting absolutely NOTHING!

As the mother of two children and a husband with pre-existing conditions, I'll take the reform as proposed right now!

[dionysus]

66. some claim the votes really ARE there, and that mean 'ol obama is stopping them...

:rofl:

[golfguru]

67. by finding another Lyndon Baines Johnson type to run for president n/t

[Donnachaidh]

18. shrill baby shrill

Marginalizing dissent at a pitch that dogs can here! Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Moochy]

21. Its not even Sunday yet !

By then the pitch might break my champagne glasses that I've been mandated to buy in celebration of this historic achievement.

[patrice]

22. Not the way I see it. It's a call to engage, not acquiesce or quit. Honesty IS one of our shared and

highest priorities. No one is telling anyone else to lie about what their conscience is on these matters. Some of us are hoping to break FALSE dichotomies while honoring the honest and True differences that we can.

This idea that the Opposition is just going to disappear, just die and go away, is going to literally KILL us ALL.

What we need is the truth about who and what "we" are, all of us.

[Bobbie Jo]

35. Says the soprano from the kill the bill choir.

[Radical Activist]

44. There's no virtue in non-stop, knee-jerk dissent.

Some on the left are just as ideological about opposing Obama at every turn as the Republicans are. It's no surprise that people burn out on the anti-Obama zealots on DU. There's a point when dissenting for the sake of being a righteous, pure dissident becomes counterproductive.

[salguine]

46. There isn't any in servile, sycophantic ass-kissing either.

[Radical Activist]

49. No one on this thread is calling for that.

There's nothing wrong with well thought out dissent.

[Number23]

61. + 100 "It's no surprise that people burn out on the anti-Obama zealots on DU."

And what's funny is that we're supposed to think that it is just the HIGHEST coincidence that it's the same folks who find fault with every single policy, every single process, every single utterance the man makes.

Yes, a coincidence. :eyes:

[patrice]

19. Oh HELL, Yes. "I don't have to DO anything, because ALL of you are Wrong." nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

20. You're a Hero

:patriot:

[Bobbie Jo]

23. K & F'n R

You said it. :kick:

[treestar]

24. And they would be complaining regardless

Public Option - too expensive, insurance, not care

Single Payer - they'd find a problem.

It simply does not matter what we get. it's never enough.

[Puglover]

27. Um just because you

use alot of caps doesn't make it so.

and

B. How do you know what people have or haven't done to help with this. Presume much?

[LoZoccolo]

30. I know wndycty personally. He has done more than anyone I know here.

He's paid the dues to be able to say things like this.

I'll admit I haven't been as active since the Democrats started coming back, but I do remember it was extremely rare to see people from DU at real political functions.

[Puglover]

36. I wasnt saying a thing about what Wndycty may

or may not have done because I don't know a thing about him/her. What I am commenting on was his/her assumption that other people haven't done anything but bitch. It's a broad brush.

[pecwae]

72. But, B. is such an excellent

way of attempting to shame those who disagree with an OP.

[LoZoccolo]

29. YES! Recommended!

:kick:

[robinblue]

33. It is so FUCKING EASING to sit in the corner and just accept anything as long as it passes.

:eyes:

[wndycty]

34. And this is where you wrong and didn't sit in the corner, I marched, I called, I talked to people. .

. . .I also read, listened and learned.

[salguine]

48. It is rather easing, isn't it?

[G_j]

39. I always find it funny

when some individual finds the need to tell everybody how "sick and tired" they are.

cry us river

:nopity:

[Raineyb]

41. I guess it's really fucking easy to bitch and moan that some people

dare point out some obvious flaws in the bill AND items in it that actually hurts people. Especially of you consider the politics more important than the policy.

Boo fucking hoo people aren't in lockstep with you.

[salguine]

43. "Historic"? The Nuremberg Laws were historic, too, and like this bill,

they were a crime against humanity too. And how you can call Obama "progressive" is beyond me. I'm wondering how people still consider him a Democrat.

[Radical Activist]

47. Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

There are good reasons to criticize this bill. But calling it a crime against humanity and claiming that Obama isn't progressive even as he pushes a progressive agenda is what makes people think the attacks against Obama are mindless and unreasoned. Try having some perspective.

[salguine]

57. To be honest, I don't give two shits whether anyone takes me seriously or not. Come back

in three years and we'll talk about it again.

I call taking people in desperate need and delivering them into the clutches of insurance cartel death panels, with no caps on premiums, and co-pays and deductibles that will be out of reach for many, rendering the insurance meaningless, a crime against humanity.

What in God's name has Obama done that could be considered even remotely progressive?

[dionysus]

63. that's cool, because no one gives a fuck about your bitter-ass, hyperbolic whining either.

:hi:

[DevonRex]

52. Now that was hysterically funny. I know you're serious but ROFLMAO. NT

[dionysus]

64. is that a smudge of mud on your jack boot? latte foam on your collar?

what if rahm saw you like this!?!?!? oh noes...
:hi:

[prolesunited]

54. Wow

Just wow.

Do you have *any* idea how ridiculous that sounds?

[politicasista]

50. Another good kick

:kick: :patriot:

[Politicub]

51. Here here! n/t

[girl gone mad]

59. Tell it to Jane Hamsher.

I'm sure it's just been really "easing" on her to be called every name in the book by the DLC crowd while she valiantly fought for consumer protections and health CARE rather than health insurance for all.

Obama said himself that he's not progressive and the bill is not progressive, so take that up with him.

[dionysus]

68. that jane hamster, she's such a hero.

:eyes:

[depakid]

60. It's even easier to ignore the evidence, remain in denial and spout talking points

though as time goes by and health care problems continue, the root causes will remain clear enough- though that much harder politically to fix.

[crumb77]

69. nicely stated

[shimmergal]

70. There's nothing to be gained

at this point in complaining about what 's wrong with the bill.

Unless you're a congresscritter who hasn't yet made up your mind on which way to vote, there's nothing anyone who's reading this can do to affect whether it passes or not.

And I agree there's some bad things in it, foremost the damned private mandate.

But what we ought to be doing now is strategizing on HOW to deconstruct those parts afterwards so we can turn it into real reform.

There's lots that we could do.

For example, how about starting a legal defense fund for those who defy the mandate, either because of principle or because they can't afford it?

Should we join with the right wingers who hope to take the mandate issue to the Supreme Court? We COULD just luck out and get a decision that the forced purchase from a private corp. is unconstitutional, while leaving the ins. co. restrictions intact. Best of all worlds--maybe they'd go into bankruptcy!

OTOH, we might get a decision illegalizing any added taxes for public support of health care. We wouldn't want that, I think.

And how far can we go to support state efforts in defiance of it? If any state is ready to put in a single-payer, or even a good public option, we need to pull out the stops to help them. And how far would we go? Maybe threatening secession? Yes, it could work. Certainly the only thing that seems to work in politics anymore is hanging tough.

And for goddess's sake, who out there has the guts and know-how to lead a rebellion of over-fifties, who're going to be SO SHUT OUT of the private insurance market? Personally I think it'll prove so expensive--even the subsidies--that the age for Medicare buy-ins will be dropped (quietly?) within a few years. But we do need some leadership toward this.

The point is, if you don't like the HCR bill, do something about it after it passes. Don't just bellyache.

[Go2Peace]

71. By then we will have moved on to the next crisis with a new compromised bill

I get you, but don't we know the pattern by now? How many things "should" have gotten corrected over the years. And you think this will get corrected?

[rosesaylavee]

73. Thank you. n/t

[NJmaverick]

74. K&R

[RetroLounge]

75. It is so FUCKING EASING

TO USE CAPS TO PRETEND YOU HAVE A POINT...

:yawn:

K & UR

RL

[OnionPatch]

76. It's not a perfect bill, far from it.

But the bill does take some steps in the right direction. The insurance companies were going to continue ripping us off and getting rich anyway, so I don't see how this is any worse than what we have now. At least they'll be required to cover more people and there will be some subsidies for low-income people to obtain coverage.

The hard, cold reality is that we do not have the congressional representation to pass the liberal legislation we would like to see passed. Until we replace the Blue Dogs (and/or some Republicans) with real Democrats, we will never pass the liberal legislation we would like to see passed. But I'm also pragmatic so it seems so counterproductive to me to just throw up our arms and walk away because we can't get everything we want. If this bill helps even one more person get some medical care they would otherwise not receive, it's worth it to me.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

77. YEAH IT IS SO FUCKEN EASING!!!!!

unrec.