There are NO Mandates in the bill. There is only a tax.

[WeDidIt]

Buy insurance and you don't have to pay the tax.

Get a loan on a home and you don't pay taxes on the interest you pay.

Have a kid and you get a tax credit.

Get married and you pay a lower tax rate overall.

Nothing new under the sun. Tax code has been used for social engineering as long as there have been taxes.

[missmel224]

1. Is there a tax for people over a certain income

or is it everyone? I had heard there was help for people that couldn't pay the tax, but I can't find the specifics of that part.

[WeDidIt]

2. It's a progressive tax

Poor people don't pay it at all.

[bigwillq]

4. Hello.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[missmel224]

6. thanks!

glad to be here! thanks for the info. I have been having to refute false claims, it gets very tiring!

[dionysus]

3. b-b--but.. THAT MEANS HE RAISED TEH TAXES!!!11!1!

;)

[vaberella]

8. But poor people don't get taxed...but they won't see that. n/t

[terrell9584]

5. Yeah except that has never been done in tax law before

There have been tax credits given when people do extra things (ie, deductions) but there has never been an explicit tax penalty for refusal to do something, especially a something that is essentially a mandate to buy the private product.


No one who makes under $50,000 should be required to abide by this mandate or pay the penalty. We should get insurance paid for by the government that we don't have to pay a penny for. Pay for it by raising taxes on the top 1%

[DrToast]

7. It's not a tax penalty for refusal to do something, it's a tax

If you prove you have health insurance, you avoid the tax.

[vaberella]

9. And if your too poor you don't get taxed!! n/t

[terrell9584]

14. Really

I currently make between 25k-30k and am a single adult. Now, on every calculator I've run it says I won't qualify for much of jack in the way of subsidies and am expected to contribute over 10% of my after tax income to this bullshit. And I am supposed to do this while paying for rent, utilities, food, and the part time classes I hope to begin this summer.


Yes, this reform really means a lot to me. I'm so happy it passed. I'm so happy that $750 that I could have used for extra class time, a better quality of food, more gas so I won't have to combine as many necessities into fewer trips I will now be to give to the IRS. Makes me all kinds of giddy inside.

[vaberella]

15. See post no.# 2. n/t

[terrell9584]

10. So it is

Have insurance or pay a tax?

I'm sorry Sherlock but that's a tax penalty and that also could violate the equal protection clause. It's one thing to give people deductions for things they do. It is another thing entirely to say that a person is going to have an anti-deduction unless they provide this document.


It is bullshit and the IRS has just become a wholly owned subsidiary of BlueCross and WellPoint.

[DrToast]

17. No, it's pay a tax or get insurance.

You pay a tax to cover your fair share of health care costs or you have insurance, which implies your fair share is covered already.

[terrell9584]

19. No, that's actually a tax penalty

You can try all sorts of logic runarounds and twisted paths to try and obfuscate it but in the end this is actually a tax penalty.


It is, you get this private product or we will tax you. That's bullshit. And it's also bullshit to imply that you can only pay your fair share by PAYING MONEY TO A PRIVATE COMPANY. Since when did being a responsible citizen consist of buying things from a private corporation?

[DrToast]

22. We buy things from private corporations all the time

How many private contractors do you think the government has? Would you feel better if the money for insurance was funneled through the government first and then passed on to the insurance companies?

Where do you think Medicare drugs come from?

[terrell9584]

24. But it has never been phrased in the argument of

By this or you're a bad citizen.


No one has ever told me that if I refuse to buy Campbell's soup I'm a bad citizen because Campbell's employs people.


No one has ever told me that if I buy a Toyota rather than a Chevy I'm a bad citizen because I hurt American workers. (In fact, when people try to make that argument they often get shouted down by free traders)


No one has ever told me that if I don't buy the new Lady Gaga CD that I'm a bad citizen because someone needs that money.




And yet, for the last few months I've seen nothing but rhetorical bullshit that suggests that if you don't buy a product (insurance) from a notoriously predatory and corrupt private industry that you are somehow a bad citizen. I'm sorry, but I don't take the suggestion too kindly.

[mkultra]

30. buy car insurance or you are a bad citizen

[daleanime]

12. Which means that if you refuse to get it....

from for profit insurances companies, you pay the tax.



Sounds like a tax penalty to me.

[DJ13]

13. No, its a penalty according to the bill

HR 3590 EAS/PP
‘‘(c) AMOUNT OF PENALTY.—

323
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—The penalty determined
1
under this subsection for any month with respect to
2
any individual is an amount equal to 1⁄12 of the ap-
3
plicable dollar amount for the calendar year.
4
‘‘(2) DOLLAR LIMITATION.—The amount of the
5
penalty imposed by this section on any taxpayer for
6
any taxable year with respect to all individuals for
7
whom the taxpayer is liable under subsection (b)(3)
8
shall not exceed an amount equal to 300 percent the
9
applicable dollar amount (determined without regard
10
to paragraph (3)(C)) for the calendar year with or
11
within which the taxable year ends.
12
‘‘(3) APPLICABLE DOLLAR AMOUNT.—For pur-
13
poses of paragraph (1)—
14
‘‘(A) INGENERAL.—Except as provided in
15
subparagraphs (B) and (C), the applicable dollar
16
amount is $750.

[Teaser]

16. taxes have been called penalties and fees before

doesn't matter.

[phleshdef]

11. Anytime you've been made to pay taxes that support public schools or the military, you've been...

...mandated to give up money that goes towards private products.

[terrell9584]

20. Uh....

Public schools are run by the government. Therefore, a public service with public employees under public administration


The military is an arm of the government. Therefore, a public service with public employees under public administration.


Explain how either is private again?

[phleshdef]

25. Because both purchases goods and services from private industry ALL THE TIME.

Textbooks, food, computers, pencils, video projectors, furniture, weapons, body armor, vehicles and materials for vehicles, private contractors for a plethora of services, etc.

All of the above are things that schools and the military purchase from private industry with OUR tax dollars. I didn't say they themselves were private. They don't have to be. The fact remains that you have to pay tax dollars to support those things (if you have enough of an income anyway) and those tax dollars are used to purchase goods and services from private entities. There is no getting around that.

[terrell9584]

27. That is the worst line of argument ever

When I pay taxes for public schools it is not delinieated in my taxes that I am specifically paying this money for Hougton-Mifflin, Tyson Foods, etc. It says I am paying it for the operation of the publically held schools, their administration etc (well, doesnt say that either but this is implied).


A basic college logic class would blow a whole in that logic so I won't continue because my point has been made. But the argument you just used would be almost immediately refuted in any introductory logic class.

[phleshdef]

29. So in other words, the public schools situation is even "worse" because you don't get to choose...

..which private companies actually get your money.

The line of argument is completely solid, whether you care to admit it or not. The details are fairly irrelevant. We are talking about the concept of the government mandating that you pay money out of your income to a private company. When you are taxed for schools and the funding of the military, that is exactly what happens. When it comes to the healthcare plan, the only difference is that the government isn't the middle man. There is no other difference aside from that really. I don't need a logic class to see that. I can rely on my own common sense. Try it.

[4lbs]

18. Then you don't understand how the national health insurance plans are funded in Canada, England, and

France.

All those are mostly (at least 85%) funded by the equivalent of income taxes levied on EVERYONE. It is mandatory.

That increase in taxes, anywhere from 5% to almost 10%, depending on country and income level, is in lieu of monthly premiums.

[terrell9584]

23. And as I understand in those countries

It is a non-profit, government run, single payer type system.


What this consists of is a hijacking of income from American taxpayers into the hands of private for profit companies. And trust me, there are many insurers who offer shoddy products just chomping at the bit to victimize a whole new consumer base.

[4lbs]

26. No, several of them are hybrid public/private plans.

Check France's system. It is a hybrid where the populace pays about 9% in mandatory taxes for it.

It's also ranked #1 in the world.

Sweden's health care system, also a hybrid public/private, and ranked in the top 5, is very similar.

The government plan covers 85% of healthcare costs.

People get the majority of their healthcare from the public plan, and some elect to pay monthly premiums in additional private supplemental plans that help cover the other 15%.

My retired parents (in their 70s) here in the USA have something similar. They are on MediCare (government) and Kaiser California (private).

They pay a combined $500 monthly for both and it covers 100% of their costs when they go to a Kaiser facility, and 95% when they go to a non-Kaiser facility. They have $300 taken out monthly for MediCare, and $200 monthly for Kaiser. The Kaiser plan is a Senior MediCare supplemental that covers most of the remaining cost after MediCare at non-Kaiser facilities and all the cost at a Kaiser facility.

As an example, they both had cataract eye surgery several years ago. It's a $10,000 surgery, but because both had it done at a Kaiser facility, 100% was covered. They only had to do the $15 co-pay when they checked in. They were done and I was driving them home about 3 hours later.

Had they elected to have it done at a non-Kaiser facility, then MediCare would have covered 80%, Kaiser would have covered 15%, and they would have had to pay the remaining $500 (5%). They elected to have it done at a Kaiser facility because they also got big discounts on new glasses. New glasses cost just $50 for each.

[xchrom]

21. No matter how you look at it --

This 'tax' marries the corporate and public interests in a very strange and complex way.

And the Supremes decision re: Citizens United will determine how things get 'fixed'.

[damntexdem]

28. And the power to tax is right there in the Constitution:

"Amendment 16
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from
whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and
without regard to any census or enumeration."