Dems need to bring back Howard Dean. Tim Kaine is clueless.

[dumpdabaggers]

Does anyone think we would have lost Ted Kennedy's 4enate seat had Howard Dean influenced who the candidate would have been?

Is there a chance in hell we would be giving away a House seat in Hawaii?

Tim Kaine seems as clueless as David Wilhelm, the last guy that led the party to a terrible defeat back in 1994.

Kaine has been overwhelmed by the rag tag tea baggers.

[Go2Peace]

1. absolutely. The current leadership is destroying what should have been much more

[Arkana]

2. You really can't blame Tim Kaine for Martha Coakley's utter refusal

to campaign.

[dionysus]

3. yeah but does he even want to?

[msongs]

4. why would Dean want to be part of the conservadems running washington now? not likely nt

[dflprincess]

5. Kaine belongs to the crowd that refuses to admit that the 50 state strategy worked.

No way Obama or Emanuel will let him go.

[karynnj]

29. So, MA is one of the red states that would be included only if the 50 state strategy were followed?

There may be races where this change could hurt - this is not one of them.

[dflprincess]

41. It was a general comment directed to the OP's remark that Dean needs to be brought back

- a sentiment I agree with. But no way will the conservaDems currently in charge ever admit that Dean was correct, regardless of how many seats they lose in red or blue states.

[karynnj]

49. It would be a shame if they allow the healthier parties in the red states

to fall into decay. I do think that the tide is such that there will be far fewer opportunities in the red states this year. Dean's work put races in play when the tide turned quickly in our favor in 2006, but in the House, we just had two exceptional elections and the overall tide is moving away from us. It would not be fair to compare Dean's success to Kaine's. After all, what do you think when Schumer and Emmanuel are given credit for their records in the Senate and House?

(The fact is Dean in good shape having been there in 2006 and 2008 - he will be compared very favorably to Kaine and McAuliffe. What he deserves credit for is the degree to which he was able to rebuild local parties. Assuming that what he started continues, it will make good years better and bad years less bad.

[FiveGoodMen]

50. "regardless of how many seats they lose"

Tin foil, but...

The conservaDems don't really care whether they win or not.

They are there to continue the neo-con agenda during periods of history when the pukes are out of favor with the voters.

They'll all be well rewarded.

Staying in office really isn't what matters to them.

[Arkana]

53. Since many of those conservadems are only where they are BECAUSE

of Dean, I suspect you're wrong.

[gateley]

6. Didn't Obama give Dean the cold shoulder a while back? I think it was because

of the stuff (truth) Dean was saying. I'd love to see him back at the helm!

[liberalla]

11. Yes he did, and it really made me mad.

There is something about Howard Dean that the Obama admin really doesn't like.
Pres. Obama extends olive branches all the time, but not to Howard.

I miss Howard Dean.

[gateley]

31. He doesn't play the political games, and I'm guessing Obama's advisors

suggested he steer clear of Dean for that reason. He wasn't spouting the company line.

I only really got to "know" him over the past couple of years, and I've grown to like and admire him so much. He's one of the ones I really trust, and use him as a bellwether on issues. If Dean likes it, I know it's good for us, and the opposite, of course.

I'm glad he's getting air time on MSNBC fairly frequently, although I'd like to see a lot more of him. :hi:

[Historic NY]

7. Dr. Dean, paging Dr Dean .

[WeDidIt]

8. Cannot happen until 2013

Kaine has a four year term. IT only ends if he resigns.

[depakid]

9. Dean's persona non grata in this administration

and thus far, that's been nothing but a GOOD thing for Howard Dean.

[tsuki]

30. True that. nt

[Beaverhausen]

10. I don't think Kaine is that bad, but I do think Dean was great

we really do need him. I'm still supporting DFA.

[VMI Dem]

12. Is Dean a New Democrat?

[TheKentuckian]

34. Nah, he was what used to be a moderate Democrat before the party

followed the TeaPubliKlans to the edge of the cliff.

It doesn't take long to go from 'centrist' to moonbeam batshit while standing still anymore. Today's centrists are tomorrow's commies and on and on.


It is past time to stop the rightward shuffle of the Republicans go nuts and Democrats take their place, the new nuts becomes "middle of the road" and the train just keeps rolling.

[Dr Morbius]

13. I like Howard Dean, and I respect him, and I am grateful to him...

...for his efforts in getting us the majority. But it is worth remembering that it is because of Howard Dean that we have all these "blue dog" Democrats. We won a couple elections but we have not won the argument! For all we on the left have managed to see to fruition these last four years, liberals/progressives remain in the minority in the Senate and hold a slim majority in the House.

I'm no Tim Kaine fan, but let's remember that we are not yet where we need to be. If we want real Democratic values from our government the left has to win elections, not merely the Democrats. We ought to be looking for someone new to lead the party. Someone from the left, not the center.

[KoKo]

27. Actually, we have Rahm Emmanuel to blame for them....not Dean... n/t

[polichick]

14. Really - k&r

[freddie mertz]

15. Dean was pushed out because he puts party and principle over personality.

What Rahm and co. seem to want is a Dem party machine that is utterly subservient to the current WH's interests.

The sick thing is that Dean would in fact be the most loyal and trustworthy of any possible DNC chairs.

But he is nobody's stooge, and nobody's puppet, so he had to go.

[Arkana]

17. Dean wasn't pushed out.

He left.

[freddie mertz]

20. He was marginalized and pushed to the side.

We all know what happened.

He wasn't even invited to the transition ceremony.

[nyc 4 Biden]

16. I couldn't rec this OP fast enough. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

18. Kaine is worse than clueless, he's a bigot

And a Party lead by him and other dogmatic, religious test based bigots is not really my Party. I do not get up and go work for a Party that is lead by men who think my family is not even a family at all. Kaine is opposed to even civil unions for the minorities he holds in contempt, because he feels that pleases an invisible being that tells him what to do, but not how to win elections, apparently.

[SoxFan]

19. So, do you support Bill Halter over Blanche Lincoln?

I'd be curious to hear the answer.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. What's that got to do with the price of discrimination?

I live in Oregon. What does your question have to do with Kaine?

Got anything to add about Kaine? Or his intolerant attitudes? That is, the subject at hand? If I had a strong opinion on that primary, how would that alter Tim Kaine's opinions? He'd still be exactly what I say he is.
Can you counter my points on Kaine? I'd be curious to hear the answer. Or maybe you simply agree with Kaine?

[SoxFan]

22. I don't agree with Kaine on this issue

But I'm not a one-issue voter, and I don't impose litmus tests.

My question re: Halter stems from the fact that many, many DUers who rake Kaine and Obama over the coals for their perceived or actual lack of action on GLBT issues support Halter, despite his public support for Arkansas' ban on gay and lesbian adoptions.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Well this is what I mean when I say I don't really know about

that race. I don't. I do not like Blanche at all. This is not about Arkansas, nor about litmus tests, and I've never even met a one-issue voter. So if you are suggesting that I am one, I would simply not agree.
And let us be clear, about Kaine, the subject of this thread. He is opposed to all forms of family rights for some minorities. Including civil unions. This is not 'perceived' nor is about a 'lack of action' this is about what he says to the public about my family and my community. It is not his passivity, but his active opposition to equality that is at issue, his rhetoric, his religious tests for secular rights.
Having an important issue does not mean there are no other issues. To suggest that it does is indicative of certain points of view. If I was the voter you think I am, I'd not have voted for Obama at all. Much less twice. But Kaine, he's not the guy who can beat McCain, which is why I voted 'for' Obama. Kaine, he's got no excuse, and offers nothing to balance his negatives. Kaine is all about his prejudices, because there is nothing else to talk about, except that he is dull to the point of being a human sedative.
I just do not see any appeal in Kaine at all. Don't see what he brings to the table. Other than the Bible and a finger to wag. What do you see as Kaine's skills? What do you think he is adding to the mix?

[Bluenorthwest]

26. Again, you offer nothing positive about Kaine

Not sure exactly why my opinion as an individual should have anything to do with what other people say or have said. Almost as if you think some groups of people are monolithic and unthinking. Many, many, here defend all Obama policy without reservation. I do not ask you to speak for them, nor do I address you as if you were them, or somehow represent them.
As to your opinion about these 'many many Duers', that also seems off kilter. You criticize the idea of being a 'one issue voter' but you also seem to expect those DUers to be one issue voters. I really don't get that. Have your litmus test and eat it too?
So I guess those 'many many' are not imposing a litmus test. Same as you say you do. But then you seem unhappy that they are not using one vote on one issue to make up their minds. Which is it? Should they litmus test and back your Blanche or should they be multi issue voters and vote as they wish to vote based on complex sets of facts?
And again, what do you think is so great about Kaine? That is the subject of the thread. Tim Kaine.

[fadedrose]

23. I email the WH almost weekly asking...

that they appoint Howard Dean to some position where he could speak for the President on TV . . . There's no one out there now with any gravitas who could speak to us whom we TRUST.

There's NO cabinet head or any other kind of WH official that makes me sit up and pay attention like Howard Dean does. When he said the health care bill should pass, that's when I started to believe it should pass, regardless of its shortcomings.

And he always defends the President. He'd be a loyal and convincing WH Adviser or head of some new position in health care where he would be able to deal with the insurance companies.

[budkin]

25. Maybe after we get our asses waxed in November there will be a change

[karynnj]

28. Dean did an excellent job building up the state parties, but that was not the problem in MA

From all that people in Massachusetts have said there were many factors involved in the loss:

- Coakley not understanding that she needed to campaign as if the race was closed. To put it context, she only made 19 campaign appearances in the general election, Kerry in 2008, running for a fifth term and having been a Presidential nominee, had more. (The general election period was not that different, because Kerry's primary was in mid September.

- Coakley said things like shaking hands was not as important as speaking to people like union leaders and oddly joking (or not joking) that Curt Shilling was on the Yankees. For the segment of the population that vote on personality - she made it easy for them to vote against her. Not to mention, Coakley said there were NO Al Quaeda in Afghanistan - something Obama and the chair of the SFRC both would have disagreed with.

- Brown was able to get huge amounts of money - more than he could spend - once he was only 10 points apart. (So much, he now has more money in his PAC than any other person in the Massachusetts delegation.

- Brown was given very positive press. The Globe had a front page article, going into the inside of the paper on his illustrious national guard service - filled with praise of his commitment to service. (This was seriously far more concentrated praise than they gave their Senator in 2004 for his far more illustrious service.)

- Talk radio is right wing everywhere.

Which of these could Dean have changed? The DSCC and the DNC offered help which was supposedly early on as not needed. Coakley never even tried to get the help of the others who lost the primary. Only at the very end did she pull in Clinton, who had endorsed her in the primary, Obama, who came from DC, and Kerry, who went out to campaign for her a week after hip surgery and while his wife was dealing with radiation treatments.

[greencharlie]

32. Howard Dean, FTW!!!!!! nt

[brooklynite]

33. Howard Dean didn't influence Senate candidates, and neither does Tim Kaine

The DNC Chair deals with national fundraising and state party building. DSCC, led by Senator Menendez, leads the candidate building effort for Senate races, and before him it was Charles Schumer.

[Phx_Dem]

35. He's not clueless, but Dean's better. We'll see in November.

[tritsofme]

36. Is this a joke?

No thanks. Chairman Kaine doesn't have the luxury of a opposing president at 20% approval and an unpopular and stale Republican majority in Congress.

[MadBadger]

37. For the Millionth time, Howard Dean would be nothing more than a figurehead

[Beaverhausen]

38. What??? Dean led the Dems to their largest majority ever when he headed the DNC

figurehead? Bullshit!

[MadBadger]

39. Yes a figurehead. With a Democratic President, the Head of the Party is the President.

He did all this with a Republican president, meaning he was in charge.

[Beaverhausen]

40. I think the President has his hands full with other problems now

the head of the DNC can help us keep or gain seats in the next election. Dean did a great job when he had it. Kaine...not so much.

[Hippo_Tron]

45. The party chairman is ALWAYS a figurehead when the party is in power

Tim Kaine answers to David Axelrod and the President's other political advisors. Howard Dean would do the same.

[Hippo_Tron]

46. A point that is lost on just about everybody

I actually got to speak to Howard Dean once (back in 2007) and I asked him whether or not he planned to remain DNC Chair after 2008. He said that Democrats were going to win the White House in 2008 and that he had no desire to serve at the pleasure of the White House Political Director. He did add that if the President asks you to serve, it's very hard to say no, but that he was honestly not really interested in the figurehead job.

[vaberella]

42. No one forced Dean to leave. He left on his own accord.

So you should say....Dean needs to come back but not Dems need to bring him back. It wasn't like he was forced out.

[glinda]

43. Damn right. Howie for President also.....

[tpsbmam]

44. AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! I've been thinking that for a few

months now. The Democrats treated him like shit when he did the best job for the Dems that anyone has done for decades. Dean gets us, the base, and he gets the American voting public. I wish these fools would take their heads out of their asses and start listening to us and certainly to people like Dean! Primary voting results, around here at least, showed absolutely that Dean's finesse could create more sea change in the country. They've gotten this Republican-like attitude -- they think they know what the (Democratic) country wants and what we'll support. They are so fucking wrong!

(PS We aren't totally screwed up here....yet. At least more Dems than Reps voted in the primary. Turnout was pathetically low, but at least more Dems showed up at the polls in Buncombe County....Asheville, NC etc.) And Shuler lost in Buncombe Co. (yeah!) he just won because outlying, more conservative areas voted for him. His opponent was a newcomer (Aixa WIlson) who'd never run for office before -- he still took 40% of the vote for the whole area. Not bad and a big message to Shuler. I frankly think Wilson ran a piss poor campaign (though not that piss poor if he did so well) and his positions on virtually every issue were poorly defined (too vague) -- he had some ideas thrown in that made me VERY uncomfortable. He was called more liberal than Shuler, but when I read his (vague) policy stances carefully, I wasn't all that convinced. And despite corresponding with him a couple of times, I never had a good grasp of his policies.

I agree with David Wiegel (WaPo): "...Rep. Health Shuler and Rep. Larry Kissell both watched unknown opponents rack up nearly 40 percent of the vote. Shuler's opponent, Aixa Wilson, has one of the less comprehensible policy stances I've seen." Despite all of this, he beat Shuler in my county and came very close in the all-around vote.

(Tangent over.)

K&R

[jillan]

47. Worthless is the word that comes to my mind.

[AtomicKitten]

48. That suggestion isn't particularly helpful since his term isn't up until 2013.

I was impressed when Kaine talked about GOP operative convictions for voter fraud on MSNBC; I haven't heard anybody else even mention it before.

If you're feeling Dean-deprived, encourage him to run for office again instead of undermining the current DNC Chair. I'm reasonably certain the good doctor would agree.

[BrklynLiberal]

51. That would be great! I second that motion!!

[IndianaGreen]

52. We are losing what we fought so hard to win in 06 and 08

Obama didn't want Dean anywhere near the DNC, just as the DLC!