How does promising to do the wrong thing make Obama a better president?

[jgraz]

Once again, the anti-war DUers are being told the STFU because this war escalation is what Obama "promised" to do during the campaign. Maybe it was, but it certainly wasn't something I supported.

So, for all of you pushing this argument, I have a question for you: next time, should anti-war Democrats just not vote? Cuz the fact that we voted for and worked for and donated to Obama despite his pro-war stance is now being thrown back in our faces.

What's your solution? We don't support war but we supported Obama as the best choice available. Was that wrong of us?

[stray cat]

1. The War of Northern Aggression was wrong as was the War of Independence

[jgraz]

2. Are you comparing Afghanistan to the Revolutionary War?

Seriously? :wow:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. It's not telling the anti-war DUers to STFU.

It's telling the phony anti-war DUers who pretended they didn't know what Obama campaigned on to STFU.

[jgraz]

4. Typical childishness

Are there no "authentic" anti-war DUers who voted for Obama? Or does it just make your presidential binky that much more snuggly to pretend we all secretly wanted an escalation in Afghanistan?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. I'm an authentic anti-war DUers who votede for Obama.

But then again, you don't see me running around saying shit like "OMG I can't believe Obama is doing this he's going back on his word this is not the change I voted for!"

[jgraz]

6. I've seen no one saying he's "going back on his word"

Perhaps that red herring is easier to argue against than the truth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

I have.

I haven't seen anybody tell anti-war DUers to STFU.

[jgraz]

15. See below (post 7)

The implication is "you supported him, you knew what you were getting, STFU".

How else can you read that?

[goldcanyonaz]

7. Weren't you one of his big supporters here?

If so you knew full well about his plans in regards to Afghanistan.

[jgraz]

13. So you're saying I should not have supported him

Perhaps voted for the Socialist candidate? :shrug:

[goldcanyonaz]

20. Nope, but you're whining is noted.

[jgraz]

24. Oh your(sic) keeping track, are you?

Don't keep us in suspense! Tell us what your(sic) planning to do with you're(sic) little list!

[izquierdista]

8. The key word here is "despite".

Many anti-war DUers were for Obama, despite his war talk, not because of it. Because you can imagine that McCain would be 10 times worse. We need to keep pointing out this mistake, despite the hero-worshipers who have yet to see Obama make a mistake. At least Obama can learn from mistakes and correct them, while McCain would be making the same one over and over, as easily as crashing a plane.

[ihavenobias]

12. +1 n/t

[JuniperLea]

9. Seems to me it was the right thing when we wanted Bush to do it...

Most of us were arguing that Bush should pull out of Iraq and put the troops where they belong, in Afghanistan. Weird how that's no longer the right thing to do.

[jgraz]

16. I never argued that.

I was against both fake wars from the start.

[ProSense]

10. How does you saying it's the wrong thing, make it the wrong thing? n/t

[jgraz]

18. It actually *being* the wrong thing makes it the wrong thing

Or are you in favor of deepening our involvement in the futile war?

[vaberella]

11. You don't even know what the right thing is..no one bloody knows. n/t

[jgraz]

17. Pull the fuck out

How hard is that to understand?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

22. Wait, you use an obscene rape analogy and I'm the one who's inhumane?

Damn, I really don't want to know what your home life is like.

[gravity]

28. What are the consequences of just pulling out?

The country is still going to exists when the US leaves abruptly and it will probably be in even more chaos.

There is no easy solution for ending the war in Afghanistan and those who think so are just being naive. Once you get in the logistics of forming any exit strategy, things get messy and complicated.

Who are you expecting to control the country once the US leaves? Will it destabilize the rest of the region? Will Afghanistan be a harbor for terrorist again? How will this affect Pakistan?

[jgraz]

31. Sorry, but I'm beyond caring about what happens in Afghanistan

If the war pigs are so worried, let them get their asses over there and help fix things. We already destroyed their country and our economy. Let's leave them the fuck alone and focus on our own problems.

[PHIMG]

14. He sounded a lot like Bush.

I'm voting against War President Rahm Emmanuel during the primary.

[davidpdx]

21. Unrecommended

He's doing what he thinks is right and what he promised during the campaign. Those that are complaining about it, fail to realize he was going to have to make some hard choices. I still don't think these same people will admit to even hearing this during the campaign.

[jgraz]

23. And I was just thinking "I wonder what davidpdx thinks of my post"

:eyes:

[davidpdx]

25. Yeah, that gets you lots of points

Here they are:

:puke:

[Hansel]

26. No one is telling you to StFU

They are telling you to quit being so f*cking disingenuous with your arguments. There are too many people on this board pretending like this came out of nowhere. Like Obama has pulled a bait and switch. One poster was trying to argue that Obama was sneaky about it during the campaign.

Obama was very VERY clear about what he was going to do in Afghanistan. And it is disingenuous to pretend like this is some kind of a betrayal and like a man who you found good enough to vote for has now shockingly turned into a war mongering anti-Christ that you never suspected he was. Like you aren't adult enough to accept him at his word.

You can argue against the war all you want. But the personal attacks on a man who you voted for knowing what he stood for seems kind of chicken shit to me. Take some responsibility and buck the f*ck up.

[jgraz]

27. So, next time I should not vote for him?

Would my complaints about the war be less "disingenuous" then?

[Hansel]

29. You can do whatever you want.

You can complain about the war all you want. But to personally attack Obama for something that you knew he was going to do as though you didn't think he really meant it is, yes, disingenuous.

I have no problem with people complaining about the war. I have a problem with people pretending that he wasn't clear about what he was going to do and are now all outraged because he is doing it. The utter and ridiculous cynicism about practically everything he does and says about this subject is a bit over the top. Especially because he made absolutely no bones about what he was going to do.

I think that he is doing what he thinks is best and I happen to agree with him. I don't think he is Bush, I don't think he's playing politics, and I don't think he is a war profiteering war monger like some are trying to make him out to be. I think he is very intelligent and discerning and has made a very difficult and well reasoned decision. That is nothing at all like Bush.

People can state their reason for why they are against this war in terms of what is wrong with the war itself, but the attacks on Obama's motives and credibility on the matter are a bit chicken sh*t. If you voted for the guy, you need to take responsibility. It's like aiding and abetting a someone in a crime because they were going to give you part of the money, but you don't want to serve the time with them because they stole a fur coat that you didn't want. You can say stealing is wrong and why it shouldn't be continued, but you don't get to put everything off on the other guy.

Please be aware that not all of my frustration on this is directed at you. There is so much BS and cynicism on the board over this I am just generalizing and you may not be guilty of most of what I'm saying. For that I apologize.

[jgraz]

30. "If you voted for the guy, you need to take responsibility"

It really seems that your message is "don't vote for anyone with whom you're not in 100% agreement."

As for myself, I AM taking responsibility. I'm going to protest and work against this president's war agenda with every spare moment I have.

[Hansel]

33. If that's how you interpret it.

Of course, you could interpret it like a grown up as "I knew he was going to do this and I voted for him anyway because he was the best candidate. I'm going to continue to protest against the war, but I'm not going to attack him personally over it because I have to take some responsibility for voting for him knowing what he was going to do. I still think he was the best person for the job so I'm not going to pretend like I'm all innocent in the matter and that he is an evil, war mongering, war profiteer who just wants to kill people for the fun of it just like Bush. But I still disagree with him on this issue and I'm going to do whatever I can to try to make my case. I will campaign for congress reps who will vote against the war. I will call them and make my case. But all in all, Obama is still the best president we could have gotten realistically at this time. And he's still a hell of a lot better than McCain. The war sucks!"

[jgraz]

35. Handy DLC translation guide

"Grown Up": pro-war, pro-corporate, anti-labor, anti-poor.

Thanks, I'll pass.

[green917]

37. disingenuous? really?

Some of us actually knew all along that this was what President Obama planned to do in Afghanistan but, as progressives, we had hoped that he would surround himself with foreign policy advisers that would give him better information about the futility of attempting to achieve unattainable goals and, perhaps, change his mind. Many of us didn't agree with a lot of his platform but supported him and his mantra of "change we can believe in" because we didn't have a better option. Let's face it: if McCain were President today, we would be escalating BOTH wars, not just the one in Afghanistan. The simple reality is that many many progressive Democrats, such as myself, are dejected not because we didn't see this coming but because we did but hoped we were, perhaps, wrong about his continuations of bad policies. Just because it's something he promised to do, doesn't make it any better a policy decision and I, for one, knew from the beginning that this issue would probably define his Presidency negatively.

[october2]

32. Agreed.

He ran on focusing the efforts in Afghanistan. I thought he would do it in a more economical way, i.e. pull out forces, deploy smaller teams with interpreters that could penetrate villages and get vital information.

This big army approach is dumb.

I think he's going to be a one-term president.

[Hansel]

34. I think he's going to be just fine.

This is an exit strategy, count on it.

[wisteria]

36. You are entitiled to your opinion, but right now your President could use your support after making

a very tough and unpopular decision that he thinks is the right one for this country.

[PurityOfEssence]

38. We don't OWE him fealty for mealy-mouthed politicking

This is a blunder. It's also wrong. It's also buttressed by irrationalities and served up with the elan of showmanship at a time when an artisan is what's needed.

Right now, those who disagree owe it to humanity to howl and try to contain this species of madness. Maybe this isn't calculating politicking, but we have no obligation to enable his folly, even if it does spring from true sincerity. We don't OWE it to him to fall in step and quash dissent when we feel he's making a huge mistake. WHO THE FUCK is HE, anyway? There's this celebrity reverence that so many demand the rest of us adopt in the presence of his unquestioned greatness, and that's simply unfounded to these eyes and ears.

We didn't elect a king, and we CERTAINLY didn't crown a messiah.

"As we end the war in Iraq and transition to Afghan responsibility..." I gag. What crap. I guess he isn't a warmonger, he's a responsibilitymonger.

This is one of the things that's stuck so abrasively in my craw about many of this man's supporters: he's a veritable deity, and any resistance is calumny.

[jgraz]

39. By all means, show your support for Our President

http://www.army.com/enlist