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Could we maybe have thought more about fighting them here so we wouldn't have to fight them there?

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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:55 AM
Original message
Could we maybe have thought more about fighting them here so we wouldn't have to fight them there?
From tonight's speech:



Over the last several years, the Taliban has maintained common cause with al Qaeda, as they both seek an overthrow of the Afghan government. Gradually, the Taliban has begun to control additional swaths of territory in Afghanistan, while engaging in increasingly brazen and devastating attacks of terrorism against the Pakistani people.


Now, throughout this period, our troop levels in Afghanistan remained a fraction of what they were in Iraq. When I took office, we had just over 32,000 Americans serving in Afghanistan, compared to 160,000 in Iraq at the peak of the war. Commanders in Afghanistan repeatedly asked for support to deal with the reemergence of the Taliban, but these reinforcements did not arrive. And that's why, shortly after taking office, I approved a longstanding request for more troops. After consultations with our allies, I then announced a strategy recognizing the fundamental connection between our war effort in Afghanistan and the extremist safe havens in Pakistan. I set a goal that was narrowly defined as disrupting, dismantling, and defeating al Qaeda and its extremist allies, and pledged to better coordinate our military and civilian efforts.


Since then, we've made progress on some important objectives. High-ranking al Qaeda and Taliban leaders have been killed, and we've stepped up the pressure on al Qaeda worldwide. In Pakistan, that nation's army has gone on its largest offensive in years. In Afghanistan, we and our allies prevented the Taliban from stopping a presidential election, and -- although it was marred by fraud -- that election produced a government that is consistent with Afghanistan's laws and constitution.


Yet huge challenges remain. Afghanistan is not lost, but for several years it has moved backwards. There's no imminent threat of the government being overthrown, but the Taliban has gained momentum. Al Qaeda has not reemerged in Afghanistan in the same numbers as before 9/11, but they retain their safe havens along the border. And our forces lack the full support they need to effectively train and partner with Afghan security forces and better secure the population. Our new commander in Afghanistan -- General McChrystal -- has reported that the security situation is more serious than he anticipated. In short: The status quo is not sustainable.



(From the transcript posted at TPM. http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/full-transcript-of-obamas-remarks-on-afghanistan.php)

I was not a fan of the surge in Iraq, and I am still skeptical that the surge was the sole or even the main reason for the major decrease of military casualties there. I'm also skeptical about the efficacy of a surge in Afghanistan. To me, there seems to be a great possibility with this escalation of simply appearing to be more of an antagonist, and setting up something of an "equal and opposite reaction." But then again, I'm not a military strategist as Gen McCrystal is, and I'm not much of a student of history; I can only say that to me, Afghan history looks like tribal anarchy periodically interrupted by invasions, of which ours is just the most recent.

At the same time, I am not skeptical about the efficacy of force as a tool to subdue belligerents, nor am I of the belief that it can't ever be the proper tool. Many Americans, and especially those on the left, are tired of this war. The prospect of leaving behind an Afghanistan better than we found it was enchanting when Bush was making it seem so plausible, but in the cold light of day, to build a better Afghanistan, we are still working with....you know. Afghanistan. There is a reasonable probability, with a government that doesn't have great confidence or a security force that is ready to defend it, that the Taliban will re-install themselves, not necessarily because of the will of the people. Just because they can. Because stability is enticing--even if it's a religiously-obsessed and unjust kind of stability. It is because of that I look forward to the idea of there being work towards a civilian solution, as well as seeing the Obama administration pay more attention to how Pakistan and India can exert influence in the region.

With respect to my fellow liberals who really disagree with this--I don't see simply pulling out as a viable solution. I don't see this as simply a political decision or as caving in or as being Bush 2.0. As early as 2007, Obama gave signs of favoring the value of the Afghanistan effort and expressed his belief that the devotion of resources to Iraq took away from the actual fight against those who attacked us. What he said this evening should not come as a surprise. By being willing to devote the resources to this, make the final push, and have a timeline to see it through, his strategy is actually reassuring to me. I feel that this decision did come from a consideration of many alternatives.

But with not exactly as much respect to the right, the complaint regarding the very existence of a timeline from such a venerable "bitchy-britches", as John McCain doesn't really move me. To me, that argument is Bush reheated. Again and again, Bush resisted offering a "date certain" or "benchmarks." Why? I always moved between believing that Bush was numbers-paranoid, a poor student who was phobic about poor grades, and thinking maybe he wanted to procrastinate seeing an end to the war until he was out of office--after all, you can't lose what you didn't finish.

What bothers me most about both sides is how much we've become trapped in the cliches about war that the Bush/Cheney White House drilled into our poor little heads. "Surge good, timeline bad." " We're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" (although shouldn't the national security on US soil be by and large a domestic effort?). We are supposed to axiomatically believe that the Iraq surge worked, even though Iraq is by no means restored to the pre-invasion stability, and we are also, for whatever reason, lulled into a constant comparison of apples to oranges to durian fruit: Iraq and Vietnam and Afghanistan are all different wars. When we fall into that kind of knee-jerk axiomatic speech, I fear we think that way, too, and become resistant to change. To those who hear the echoes of the happy lies we heard from Bush, the 9/11 references and the warnings that there is still a terrorist threat, well--it's like tradition, now, isn't it?

Which doesn't mean there isn't still a threat. It just isn't the same one we were expecting. Not another 9/11. But rather, perhaps another Mumbai attack. Or a destabilization of the Zardari government in Pakistan (which we should be very concerned about, as they have the nukes.) This part of the world can not be ignored. Nor dithered with, as Bush/Cheney had done.



(x-post link: http://vixenstrangelymakesuncommonsense.blogspot.com/ . )
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. And the vast chickenhawk chorus raises its collective voice...
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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm sorry if I'm obtuse--am I the chickenhawk or would that be the
people responding to me?

My position isn't that all war is good or any old war will do. I was opposed to the Iraq war and still think it's an excresence, and I was against the surge there. I have a definite opinion about how the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld goofs started the war in Afghanistan, without any kind of plan, I guess. Bush talked tough about getting Osama "dead or alive", but the report confirming what we pretty much already knew about letting him go at Tora Bora shows that the administration could actually care less. It was about nation-building, a broader war on terror, starting shit in Iraq, and maybe knocking over dominoes in other countries (I remember wondering if they wanted to start spreading out to Syria, or Iran.)

I wasn't for any of that. I considered it actually stupid, to look at this as "domino theory" the way some idiot talking heads like Andrea Mitchell (so help me, she said it this week) are wont to do. What I am looking at, with Obama's decision to do the escalation, is specifically the fact that we have been committed there in Afghanistan for nine years, there has been a recent upsurge in casualties and we need a resolution because we can't stay there forever. I explained why I don't think just up and leaving is the best solution. I admit there are bad people there--are there not? Is there no Taliban or al-Qaeda left? Well, I think they need their stingers pulled!

I know that war is ugly and this war on terror is dumb and was handled stupidly because of it--all givens. But my point is that Obama had a decision to make in the larger context of how the US, having gotten into this situation, actually extracts itself from it without doing more harm. We already committed soldiers. We've already committed lives. I am not being one of those folks who say "cut'n'run" to score points about toughness, but I am saying considerations have to be made for what kind of mess we want to leave behind.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. No, you aren't the chickenhawk
I rec'd your post but the unrec squadron flew in to unrec. Pissed me off.

Hey, it's late. Anybody's head could be spinning. We're in for such a mess of death and loss. :hug:
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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thanks--I don't like what we're looking at, I wish the idiots in
charge before Obama left him with better options--hell, left us all with better options. I still think myself that the surge might initially mean an uptick in violence, and that makes me so sad and angry. :hug: I appreciate your response.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. "chickenhawk", like "cheerleader", is just an epithet thrown around carelessly...
...when one cannot make a valid or reasoned argument supporting their position on a matter.

It is a sign of weakness and desperation.

If anyone has called you these names, there's probably nothing to it, or you've hit a nerve.

:thumbsup:

epithet: an inappropriate adjective used (often habitually) to characterize a person or thing.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't think sending an additional 37,000+ soldiers to Afghanistan is going to resolve things there
In fact I think it will make things worse. We are strengthening the Taliban not weakening them by escalating this conflict.

In addition I believe General Petraeus said there are zero Al Qaeda, and the CIA has said there are a dozen to 100 Al Qaeda members in Afghanistan. To send this many more men at a cost of $1 million dollars a soldier to go after 1,000 Al Qaeda is absolutely nuts. This should be a police operation, not a war.
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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I think they already called it a war, and the deal is--
war is what you make of it. I think it would be great if either the Afghan Gov't or the Pakistani Gov't could look at their rebels or counterinsurgents or terrorist groups as criminals. Until then, if we think there's still an enemy in-country, I think we should go after them. For what it's worth, I think the US, when we get our hands on terrorists, should try them as criminals every chance we get to deligitamize their claims and such. But I am so sorry, there is still an al-qaeda--and yes the money is ridiculous! I don't know if I want to rely on Wiki to see if they are still about--but I kind of think they are until I see Usama's flyblown corpse. So, I am in agreement with our people trying to flush him out.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yeah that is pretty idealistic thinking. Even if we were successful in Afghanistan
we can't conduct these wars everywhere - given Al Qaeda is supposedly in 100 countries. We can't even afford the escalation that is being conducted in Afghanistan.

This really is a super stupid escalation.
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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Now I am totally lost--is there zero al-qaeda in Afghanistan--
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 02:18 AM by vixengrl
which I sort of doubt, or is there al-qaeda in 100 countries? (I'm thinking some of these are very lonely al-qaeda. They've just got Facebook and a BB gun, and not really enough BB's to practice with--say what?) It would be really dumb if we escalated to other countries we weren't already in without any good reason to do so. So I'm really only talking about the escalation in Afghanistan. And we would be able to afford it if we came up with a surtax for the war, and totally sunset the Bush tax cut and the estate tax cut. I say Democrats should start pimping for fiscal responsibility and promulgate the idea of letting these "cuts" sunset and get some revenue in-- as the best thing since sliced bread, and advertise how they will only inconvenience really rich folks--starting now.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. General Petraeus said that Al Qaeda no longer exists in Afghanistan.
He said their are only enclaves and sanctuaries. We can't shoot down enclaves or sanctuaries or we will destroy the country and kill thousands of innocent people.

However the CIA estimates there are between a dozen and 100 members of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. If we can't get these guys with the 60,000 to 90,000 troops we have there now. We won't get them with 30,000 more. This should be a much smaller police operation not a full fledged war.

I am all for taxing the rich. They pay far too little taxes. Yet I would not be in favor of taxing for example stock transactions because I believe that just institutionalizes war, and makes it easier for the military industrial complex to have a steady flow of money available for perpetual war. I hope we are a better nation than that.
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