This isn't Obama's Katrina, his Hiroshima, or his Wounded Knee...

[cherokeeprogressive]

It's a fucking hole in the bottom of the ocean that's spewing oil and gas, caused by an oil company who showed wanton and willful disregard for the potential environmental damage they KNEW they could cause if a problem got out of their hands.

It's not Obama's fault. It's not Obama's doing. It's not Obama's any fucking thing, other than his mess to clean up; just like the other messes he's been tasked with cleaning up in his first seventeen months in office.

I wish people, especially DU'ers, would STOP buying into the M$M bullshit.

I'm going to sit back, take a breath, and resist the temptation to compare this situation to ANYTHING that's happened on another President's watch. I'm going let him find his way through this mess. I will either laud him when he does, or call him a quitter when he throws his hands up in disgust, saying it's a problem that can't be fixed. I fully expect the former, rather than the latter. I'm not going to second guess him.

Would that more people could see their way to doing that.

<Edited because I can't write for shit.>

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I am with you on this!

You've stated it very clearly, and truthfully.

I won't second guess him either.

[kristopher]

2. +1000

K&R

[Ozymanithrax]

3. I find reading what you write more sensible and easier on the mind...

then the "We are all gonna die brigade."

I agree with you.

[jgraz]

4. This will be more like the bankster heist or the Iraq war

In that Obama will happily let the criminals skate free while the people who elected him are left to clean up the mess.

[cherokeeprogressive]

5. You know, I worked 11 hours today, but I thought I heard something about the possibility of a

criminal investigation on the radio.

Like I said, I'm going forward with no preconceptions of what Obama will do, and the hope that he does what's right.

[jgraz]

8. That's what we always hear about...

The possibility of a criminal investigation. When we get to the actuality of a criminal indictment, I'll start getting interested.

[Bluesbreaker]

63. Don't hold your breath

Remember all of the indictments the Obama DOJ handed down to AIG, Goldman Sachs, S&P, Moody's, Washington Mutual and all of the other Wall Street institutions that perpetrated massive fraud resulting in the collapse of our economy?

Yeah, neither do I.

Obama's philosophy is the opposite of Teddy Roosevelt's ("Speak softly and carry a big stick."). This president talks tough, criticizes corporate America in the harshest terms, and then . . . does nothing.

Just like we saw with the economic collapse, Obama will say all the right things, express outrage, promise to make them pay, etc. But just like with Wall Street, it will be the taxpayers that pick up the tab when the cleanup costs come due for BP's disaster. The corporations own the profits; the government owns the losses. That's the kind of socialism this administration promotes.

Obama's White House did all it could to take the teeth out of the financial reform bill and tried to stop Congress from passing the bill that audits the Fed. Who's side do you think Obama's on when it comes to the oil companies? Here's a hint:

BP and its employees have given more than $3.5 million to federal candidates over the past 20 years, with the largest chunk of their money going to Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. Donations come from a mix of employees and the company’s political action committees — $2.89 million flowed to campaigns from BP-related PACs and about $638,000 came from individuals.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/36783.html#ixzz0pYUSXfXT

[Pirate Smile]

15. The government has been investigating and collecting evidence for over three weeks.

[classof56]

56. You summed it up nicely.

Couldn't agree more--and thanks for your posts!

Blessings to us all.

Class

[agent46]

6. I'm with you n/t

[HughMoran]

7. Keeping it real

I applaud this sort of thinking.

Good post.

[cherokeeprogressive]

9. I may not be his biggest supporter, but I'm solidly behind him.

I voted for him, and I'm not about to leave him out to dry on this. And, I'm fucking tired of seeing him second guessed on something he had no control over at the outset, and that NO ONE has control over at this point.

[HughMoran]

22. Yep, that's it

It's one thing to criticize him for things under his control, much of the criticism he gets on this issue is misplaced anger.

[lark]

54. No cigar for you

Obama chose to have no control over MMS. Obama chose to end the drilling moratorium knowing full well that there were no controls over the drilling process and no safety procedures worth writing about. He always trusts big rich companies, big pharma, big oil,big credit cards, big banks. He never sides with the folks, except for a few nice words. When action is needed, he's solidly in the ranks of corporatists - sad but true. We have been sold out.

[tblue]

10. Yes! And if he'd just say he's stopping all drilling, he'd be a huge hero

regardless of the outcome of this mess. Me thinks. Me dreams. But I'm rooting for him with all my heart.

[Lilyeye]

11. Agreed! K&R

[bluestateguy]

12. Best post I've read at DU in a month

nt

[kestrel91316]

13. YEAH. I have not one word to add.

[KT2000]

14. I wish Obama

would quit taking responsibility for the mess too.
The buck does not stop with him.
He should not tie this thing around his neck.

[Itchinjim]

16. Amen.

[enough]

17. Well said. (nt)

[styersc]

18. Obama's Chernobyl.

He didn't cause it but he will be judged by how he handles the problem.

[Still Sensible]

19. Well said. n/t

[volvoblue]

20. I think this president has more analogies shoved at him then any president

Every crisis since taking office, which is many and the result of the Bush incompetence, the media has tried to frame as his katrina.
they do so for two reasons. Because they equate Katrina with the end of Bush so, figure they can cripple this president as well.
the other is that the media is terrified of the rightwing and so, does alot of its bidding.
Soon this will become obama's Iranian hostage crisis because the right are beginning to push that.

Since Obama took office he has been every president of the 20th century. He is Hoover. no, he's FDR. No. he's Nixon. blah blah blah.
he is everyone but, president obama.

They simply will not let this president be his own man and his own president and be taken for himself

[freddie mertz]

21. I don't think it is his fault personally, but I would have been much happier...

If he had refrained from pushing the "offshore drilling is safe" line just weeks before the incident began.

His policies in this area have been a big mistake, and ill-timed, to put it mildly.

None of that matters in the short term, but let's hope that further down the road, his has the courage to recognize and reverse these mistakes.

[Nancy Waterman]

23. Thank you for posting this.

I totally agree.

[JoeyT]

24. I can't say I blame him for the spill either.

Sure he could have cleaned out the Bush appointees and evaluated all the stuff that went on under Bush for the possibility of causing a disaster, but only to the exclusion of absolutely everything else. Given how much of a screw up Bush and his people were in public, I imagine the amount of stuff they fucked up in private was staggering. It would've been 4 years of doing nothing but rooting out the dimwits and the shady deals. Economy, health care, and everything else be damned.

It isn't even his mess to clean up yet, it's BP's. My opinion of his handling of the disaster is going to be based on how far he sticks our collective foot in BP's ass when the whole thing is over.

[CrispyQ]

25. It's his wake up call . . .

& ours!

We get these monstrous corporate behemoths under control or they're going take us all down with them in their endless pursuit of profit.

[Myrina]

42. .... agreed, AND its his opportunity ...

... on a silver platter, to step up and be an environmental leader in addition to getting the corporate thuggery under control.
There will likely be no other time when so much of the populace will stand with him.
Oh, and if ever the was a reason for a 'polluter tax' of about $80 billion per year, this is it.

[theFrankFactor]

59. He'll Fake Left At Best. Obama's a Corprocrat.

[mzmolly]

26. Agreed. This is BP's "Katrina."

K and R.

[activa8tr]

27. YEAH, you said it best!!! That's the truth! Why does the

truth get so lost here on the DU?

If I were moderator, half these threads that quote Sarah Palin, Fox News, and Newt G would be DELETED because they are all lies.

[missbleedingheart]

28. No More Mr. Nice Guy, Mr. President!!

Here's how I reply to readers who've complained that President
Obama is too nice... 

Dear “No More Mr. Nice Guy”:
Barack Obama and his advisors have clearly chosen the high
road, and the opposition looks very bad spewing and spitting
sour grapes while the Democrats “kill them with kindness.” The
angry far right wing of the Republican party  has set a very
ugly tone, and more moderate Republicans need to get the
discourse back on a more polite track. For signs that you
might be a liberal, check out my Liberal Personality
Inventory.

www.missbleedingheart.com

[MadMaddie]

30. Nicely stated!

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[missbleedingheart]

35. Hope's stirring

Thanks, Maddie. Glad to be among proud liberals.
On www.missbleedingheart.com, I give advice to the lib-lorn and share my limericks:

YES WE CAN

There is a fine man named Obama

Who stars in America’s drama

With Vice President Joe

And a cute dog called Bo

And his two daughters’ beautiful mamma.

The Old Guard was given the boot

And the old-fashioned “race point” was moot.

White voters and black sent Republicans packin’.

Hope’s stirring, from Finland to Ghana.

-- Beverly (“Bleeding Heart”) Jones

[lark]

55. Hope is now officially dead, along with our Gulf

our ocean, our seafood, our beaches. Sold to big oil and nothing done to stop their ravages.

[goclark]

85. Welcome to DU nt

[MadMaddie]

29. Right on Cherokeeprogressive!!

I also find it convenient that the MSM doesn't talk about those closed door meetings that Cheney had with the energy industry giants which created the policies that are in place now.

The MSM is trying to pin anything they can on President Obama!

[Redstate Blueboy]

31. Amen to that!

Like you said, just one more damn mess for him to clean up!

[NJmaverick]

32. K&R

[Dream Girl]

33. k&R

[FrenchieCat]

34. So many things the MSM could discuss intelligently to bring needed perspective

to the American people....like how a majority support Offshore Oil drilling, but yet are mad at BP for the damage done by offshore Oil drilling. The fact that this irony is not put into proper context that the American people are suffering the unintended consequence of wanting it all, and not bothering with informing themselves on the risks beforehand.....that same folks should really be mad at themselves. Of course if there is a war to sell to the American people, than the MSM is there ready to oblige.

Anyways, it is true that much of the time, we do the MSM's bidding....and in fact, a couple of weekends ago, I noted that many here were busy blaming the President, and on that Monday, the media ran with this exact same meme. I think they were waiting for us to get pissed, and once we did, they took the ball and went running.

I state in this op that it is our collective responsibility as Americans to rethink this thing that we hadn't before given enough thought about..... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x321163

[SKKY]

36. I wish he would have been more "public" on this from the start...

...but generally speaking I would have to agree with you on this. Obama is best when he's on TV, calling people out, and lighting a fire under the necessary asses, and I think that's probably the only real criticism that could stick. But you're right, he's not the one to blame on this. One a scale of 1 to 10, Obama's blame on this would be about .2

[Christa]

37. Off to the greatest page

GREAT POST!

Thank you!!

[Guilded Lilly]

38. I'm with you on this one all the way

and don't kid yourself, you CAN write (grin)

[Drunken Irishman]

39. Yup.

Just another mess Obama has to clean up that was left by the last three or four American presidents.

It's a wonder he doesn't throw up his hands and say, "fuck it" like you suggest. And not just to this - but the entire goddamn thing.

You know what? I don't know if I'd fault him for it. I certainly wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

[liquid diamond]

44. Agreed. You know it would not surprise me if he refused to run

for a second term. He's being attacked by assholes on the right and left.

[recovering democrat]

40. OUTSTANDING. K&R

:kick:

[Zoigal]

41. Agree with you totally, cherokee...

Thank you for reminding us....z

[demwing]

43. OMG the drama

not every analogy is the fault of the MSM picking on Obama. Some are apt, such as the Hiroshima analogy. Obama - and America - have the opportunity to fundamentally change our lives, and our prospects for the future, just as the Japanese did after Hiroshima. The analogy may not be perfect, but how many analogies are?

[BanTheGOP]

45. I DO blame Bush and Cheney, however.

Of COURSE this is not President Obama's fault. His entire administration has been one of trying to correct the death, horror and destruction wreaked out by the republicanist aggenda for the past 8 years, and since Reagan of the 80's. His efforts have heretofore been superhuman, and many of us expect him to actually put on a cape, fly to the bottom of the well, and cap it.

But he HAS done something no other president has the guts to do...and that is to ban drilling and exploration of ANY gas or oil offshore! This oil spill should be placed SQUARELY on the shoulders of the ONLY organization responsible for its destruction... the republican party, including every republican administration prior to now, and every republican congressman, senator, and republican-appointed judge on the federal circuit or Supreme Court.

My initial synopsis is that Dick Cheney is the major culprit here. Source:

"Republicans, Halliburton 100% Responsible for Oil Disaster"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x532992

[bobburgster]

46. bravo

You did a hell of a job writing what I was thinking! Thanks!

[zalinda]

47. Even if I don't live on the Gulf coast, I'm angry!

It has been over 40 days, let me be clear..........OVER 40 DAYS since the disaster hit the Gulf. Obama should have told BP that they had one week to fix it or the government was taking over, then do it and charge them for it. If I have to pay the government for fixing the sidewalk in front of my house, BP can pay the government for the clean up of their mess. Instead, no one has been in charge and nothing was being done. Now, we are told that it may not be until August before it is shut down. This is unacceptable. And because of the heat building up in the Gulf waters, hurricane season may be more deadly than ever before. Oil mixed with chemical dispersant could be raining down on our coast line from Texas to Florida, and who knows how far inland this mixture will travel.

This is Obama's 9/11. Make no mistake, our country has been attacked, as surely as if planes were flown into buildings. It happened not for religious or political beliefs, but from greed. How many people will die as a result of this disaster? No one will ever know, because no records will be kept. The destruction will continue over many, many years. Will the hurricanes bringing the chemical soup on land make the areas touched unlivable? No one really knows.

Did Obama cause the oil disaster in the Gulf, no, he didn't. But, after the disaster hit, he took no action either. But hey, just like anything else, if it doesn't happen in my backyard, and doesn't affect me, then it's all good. Except that this planet is everyone's backyard, and we should really care about what happens to all of it.

zalinda

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kermitt Gribble]

67. Great post, zalinda!

Everyone should be angry. Obama will be judged for how he handles this mess, and so far, he's been awol. It's way past time for the govt to step in.

[jeff47]

74. Misplaced anger doesn't help

"It has been over 40 days, let me be clear..........OVER 40 DAYS since the disaster hit the Gulf."

And?

Were you not paying attention when the gusher first started? 'Cause it was widely reported that the only proven way to stop such a gusher was with relief wells. Which were estimated to take about 3 months to drill. The first one was started on May 2nd, which is about as fast as is possible to get a rig into position.

Sure it would be nice to wave a magic wand and fix the damn thing, but magic doesn't exist.

It would also be nice if we required relief wells to be drilled before the main well was finished, like Canada does. Or if we had backup systems like the Norwegians. Unfortunately under W's administration, when this well was drilled, such extra costs were "not necessary".

"Obama should have told BP that they had one week to fix it or the government was taking over"

And do what, exactly? There is _ONE_ proven way to cap a gusher such as this. Would you feel better if it was the government that was unable to stop the gusher until August, instead of BP being unable to stop the gusher until August? I'm sure that will be very helpful when battling anti-government zealots when it comes time to bring out new regulations to prevent similar disasters in the future.

"Instead, no one has been in charge and nothing was being done"

So...all those things that were tried and failed were figments of our imaginations? "Junk Shot" is only some sort of sex act in our collective lexicon?

"Now, we are told that it may not be until August before it is shut down."

No, we were told that long ago. There was hope that there might be a 'quick fix' that mitigated the spill somewhat. Unfortunately, those attempts failed.

"Oil mixed with chemical dispersant could be raining down on our coast line"

The dispersant they're using doesn't evaporate. Most of oil doesn't either, and the light compounds that do evaporate won't condense at the same temperature and pressure as water, so they will spread out in the atmosphere where they will be biodegraded.

"Will the hurricanes bringing the chemical soup on land make the areas touched unlivable? No one really knows."

Well, actually they do. Since dispersant and most of oil doesn't evaporate, the ecological disaster won't spread inland due to rain. Loss of marshland may cause more fresh-water flooding if a hurricane hits Louisiana, however.

"But, after the disaster hit, he took no action either."

Except for a briefing in the situation room the day after the rig sank, placing the Coast Guard's only admiral in charge of the response, directing Interior to clean up MMS, making several speeches, directing Secretary Chu to lead scientific response to the gusher, proposing several pieces of legislation, loaning a gamma-ray imaging device to BP to "X-Ray" the blowout preventer, appointing an independent commission to investigate the gusher and two trips to the area. (That's off the top of my head. There might be a few more.)

I do realize that he has not personally donned SCUBA gear and shoved a cork into the pipe. But this "taking no action" bullshit should stop. Because we need government to institute new regulations that will mean this can't happen again. And we can't get that if both parties consider government to be incompetent.

Our anger should be directed at BP for it's recklessness, Transocean for not standing up to BP when they knew better, and at previous administrations that failed to properly regulate. "Fortunately", this disaster happened before Obama's mistake of opening up more offshore drilling yielded any new sites.

[FrenchieCat]

82. Yep.......

Poster has history of blaming Obama for everything,
and giving him credit for nothing other than shit.

But what you write is accurate; Obama did what could be done for the moment,
and those who don't think so, don't really know diddley squat.

[flyarm]

98. There is nothing MISPLACED seeing dead birds in your back yard and breathing Toxic Air

with no idea what the fuck you are being exposed to ..when experts are being turned away by BP and our government for over 1 month.......while you breath this shit that burns your eyes and throats and gives massive headaches. And is premeating the entire coast of your state!

The Gulf is my back yard..I have been cataloging dead birds on my Beach from the get go..and the Toxic air has not be isolated to just the Beach area it has spread inland where people were getting sick from it ..but those of us on the Beach got a damn heavy dose of it!

Please do not assume I have MISPLACED ANGER. I have damn well earned anger!
When scientists in my state and from around the world are on my local news saying they are being kept away and lied to and deliberately fed misinformation from both BP and our Government..I have real anger..nothing Misplaced about it!

Please do not assume you know what this is like..and the treats we face now and from the get go!

We damn well know what we have experienced and what has and has not been done to date!

[jeff47]

113. Misplaced means you're pointing it at the wrong target

Seriously, this isn't that complicated. Be angry, but be angry at the people who caused the problem.

"when experts are being turned away by BP and our government for over 1 month"
<citation needed>

There's plenty of "experts" offering their spin in the media. In fact, a few weeks ago one such expert offered his estimate of the flow rate, based on a 60" pipe (it's actually 21") and the well at 150,000 PSI (it's actually 15,000). Such "experts" are not helpful.

Specifically, which experts should be involved that have been excluded? As in, what's their name?

"Please do not assume I have MISPLACED ANGER. I have damn well earned anger!"

Misplaced doesn't mean you don't have the right to be angry. An example of misplaced anger would be yelling at your dog because of the oil spill.

"and the treats we face now and from the get go"

Oooh! Treats!! Is there chocolate milk on the water?

(that's a joke, in case it wasn't clear. I know what you meant, but humor is good.)

"We damn well know what we have experienced and what has and has not been done to date!"

Then why does the "Obama hasn't done anything" meme fly around DU all the time?

[scentopine]

81. Great Post - If ever there was a time for anger it is now - at BP and at Obama

he launched into his "drill, baby, drill" program without wholesale changes in the incestuous culture of MMS (before the rig exploded and killed eleven people and poisoned the Gulf). The same people who were angry at Bush for blaming 911 on Clinton are telling you don't get angry with Obama its all because of 8 years of Bush. They are lying and standing in the way of government accountability.

Don't listen to the bullshit about "anger never solves anything". Get angry and demand change, starting with demanding the cancellation of "drill, baby, drill" (although Obama uses much more flowery language in his description of deep sea drilling off the Atlantic seaboard).

The Obama admin has stuffed Washington to the gills with corporate insiders. From Geithner to Salazar (http://coloradoindependent.com/18141/nine-reasons-not-to-trust-ken-salazar-as-secretary-of-the-interior) on and on. Don't let the corporate types try to tell you that you are wrong headed or angry, etc. He decided on joint BP/Government briefings and let BP prattle on about their wonderful partnership with the government.

MMS should have been gutted. Instead they got a "stern lecture" from a master of soothing and flowery rhetoric.

Of course DLC and OFA hacks are going to be here - Obama could take a giant shit in the middle of the white house lawn and the OFA DLC hacks will be extolling the wonder of it all, trying to convince you that it isn't shit you smell, its change.

The horror of this event transcends the ridiculous ass covering from the apologists. They are just digging themselves into a deeper hole.

[flyarm]

100. Thank you..Excellent post and so well said!! No one better try to tell me I have misplaced anger..

until they walk out their door and have to breath the toxic air we hsve had to breath and then get lied to by This administration and BP!
I have a brother right now laying in a hospital with the worst kind of Leukemia ..because he worked at, in the past, a Toxic sight he was lied to about, by our government..

Now because i was exposed to this toxic air from BP and from our Gulf..the docs don't know if they can use my bone marrow for him.

Do not tell me I have any Misplaced anger!

The lies must stop.

The passing the Buck must stop.

People's lives are being put at risk...now ..today and each day this gusher gushes its toxins..

How many people are going to eat tainted fish ..now and in the future..and they will Hope ..they aren'tied to?????

How about the Shrimp you may eat in the future?/ How long do you think it will be kept off the markett shelves..long enough for the toxins to get out of it?..yeah right..

there is even talk here in Fla that the oil has reached the inlets of NJ..so you think you haven't been lied to by your government?????????

[dennis4868]

87. It woule be nice....

if the federal government could take this thing over but there is one problem.....the federal government does not have the resources and technology to do it. As Obama said at his press conference....from day one he asked about taking over this mess and the experts in the federal government told him that the government is not capable of doing it.....I guess you want to blame Obama for the government not working on the technology for the past 30 years.....

[flyarm]

101. but this government turned away experts from all over the world snd nations all over the world that

offered expert help!

Why ..ask them..I will tell you what those of us on the Gulf know and believe..it was to assist BP in a cover up..and it was to assist BP in liability!

[Number23]

111. By far, the dumbest, most ridiculously overheated post I've seen on this issue to date

And that is saying so, SO much.

[CakeGrrl]

48. k/r

[zaj]

49. Thank you. n/t

[lafayettelonewolf]

50. Ex-friggin'-actly!!!

K&R x 10,000,000!!!

:kick:

[amborin]

51. Obama appointed Salazar, both well aware of MMS mess; 18 months later, nothing done about MMS

Salazar had said he was the "new sheriff in town" and would clean up the mess in MMS; but did zip, for 18 months.....the Int Dept exempted this BP project from required EIS; had the EIS been done, the project would not have been approved

[maritzasolito]

69. Din't he (President Obama) fire Elizabeth already?

Was I dreaming when last week she "resigned" from MMS?

[obxhead]

52. This belongs to Obama as well as

his predecessors Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush as well.

Yes BP took a shortcut and caused the blowout by doing so. What enabled them to do this though? The deregulation and lack of inspections by OUR government.

Obama passed drill, baby drill with a massive expansion of drilling areas in our waters. What did he do to prevent a disaster like this before hand? NOTHING. Not a single fucking thing. He didn't clean the MMS of the Bush cronies before doing so. He didn't even suggest in a single one of his fine speeches that we should better regulate the industry.

So while Obama didn't directly cause every reason this well failed is true, he sure as hell didn't do a single fucking thing to prevent it either. He's not even started to lead any kind of an effort to correct what is painfully obvious under regulation. Therefore he's just another spoke on the wheel that created this entire situation and is just as complicit.

[scentopine]

76. Well said, thank you - nt

[zipplewrath]

94. Pretty much my position as well

He "took ownership" of this mess by the actions, and lack thereof, in his first 16 months. When he added expansion of drilling in the gulf as part of a larger strategy of energy independence, he basically "signed on" to the "drill baby drill" crowd. When he did it without addressing the problems at the MMS, he bought into that problem as well.

Obama has wanted to "look forward" and ignore the 8 years of umitigated disaster of Bush. He has to learn that if he does not "look back" and straighten out the problems, they become his problems.

[obxhead]

107. Drilling in our waters doesn't do a damn thing for energy independence

thats a flat out lie by the MSM. These multinational companies drill oil in the gulf and just put it on the world market to be sold to the highest bidder. It's does not magically get pumped to the the US for our use automatically. This lie must be exposed for what it is.

You're perfectly correct on the look back thing as well. If the system behind you is broken, you can not expect to get positive results in front of you without going back and fixing the past problems. Obama said drilling is safe, expanded drilling, and now he can eat those words. I pray we can get some real regulation out of this. I expect to actually see massive donations, then tax cuts and subsidies given to BP to repay them for their losses in the gulf, all while we pay the full tab for cleanup.

[flyarm]

102. +1 million dead sea creatures!

[obxhead]

108. Thousands of jobs and livelihoods lost for decades

Species like the manatee barely holding on as is. Coral reefs so delicate touching them while diving is a crime.

It's a tragedy and Obama's stance was crystal clear before the blowout. Drilling is safe. Drill, baby drill. No regulation needed. Obviously he was either uninformed or lied to and did not know it on the issue of drilling offshore. Either way, it's his responsibility to us to be properly informed. He failed.

[On the Road]

53. What Kills Me

is the people who wanted Obama to take over and commandeer the operation from Day 2.

Obama assembled a crack scientific and engineering team. Unless they have any bright ideas that haven't been tried yet, that would have resulted in:

--A federal takeover against current laws (unfortunate as those laws might be)
--A series of unsuccessful attempts much like BP has tried
--An open-ended of oil pouring into the Gulf\
--Obama assuming full responsibility for the failure

That is an absolutely dream scenario for the Republicans. I don't understand why that is not immediately apparent.

[flyarm]

78. In the first couple days ..in Fla at least it was broadcast on our local news that the likelyhood

of fixing and stopping the flow of oil would not happen before AUGUST..

A little truth by our govrnment would have gone a far way of educating the nation..and helped all of us understand how bad this is and was by a nationwide audience ..instead of just those of us who live on the Gulf having this info and yet being called liars when we posted this info!..instead those of us who live on th Gulf knew there was little likelyhood of anything working until AUGUST..and what you got was nothing but the bogus bullshit that has flowed out of BP and this government from the get go..

We ...or most of us are adults..we expect to be treated as adults and be told the damn truth! Instead we got delays of info ..delays to recovery of animals and sea life.by BP whom our government turned total control over to from the get go,..while those of us who live directly on the Gulf got nothing but lies and bullshit and were stopped from doing what we do best..protecting our water, our sea life and our wild life and our eco system! Experts were kept from doing a damn thing to stop this!

Our scientists were kept away from any help they could have given and they were begging our government to listen to them!..Nations that begged to help us were turned away..many nations with expertice were ignored...and told no thanks..

What you don't understand from Day two ..we knew we were getting nothing but a pile of horseshit packaged to make you feel better..it did nothing for those of us who live on the Gulf and have had days and days of shitty air to breath and dead fish and birds on our beaches and oil and shit in our water that was evaporating into the air we breathe with god knows all what chemicals were burning our eyes and throats and giving thousands headaches.

But those of us that knew what was going on were shouted down or called liars or told we were haters of some sort of bullcrap!

What you don't know is... what you don't know.. because you do not live on the Gulf and you have no idea what we do know!

What kills you is of no concern of mine..but what is killing the gulf infront of my eyes and those of us who live on the gulf is of dire concern of mine!

Maybe if some here would listen to those of us who live on the Gulf, instead of the propagandists..you might, just might, not be killed with disinformation or total bullshit or deflections from truth!

What is of utter importance is getting this stopped. This will not only effect the Gulf but it will also effect the Atlantic Ocean.

There are already reports in Fla that oil has already reached the NJ coastline! How much is truth is now obsured and as greasy and opaque as the Gulf.

We In Fla knew the oil had reached the Loop Current in the early days of May..that story was kept from the American people by our government , BP and our complicit media.

But don't listen to those of us who live on the Gulf..wtf could we possibly know????????????


and now it is headed for my beach..and the beach that was voted the most beautiful beach in the entire USA!

Oil Forecast: Spill drifting toward Florida's West Coast; 120 miles from Tampa Bay
Source: WFSFCS West Florida Continental Shelf forecast

WFSFCS West Florida Continental Shelf forecast of surface trajectories for Gulf of Mexico Oil Spill

120-hour Forecast, May 30, 2010 - June 3, 2010

An arm of the oil slick appears to have exited the Loop Current and is drifting eastward aided by onshore winds.

By June 3, oil is predicted to be 120 miles off the coast of Tampa Bay and Florida's west coast.

Read more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CO-dw0fsTU

After sending this article out to Fellow Floridians i was just made aware that Sarasota has declared a Emergency....anyone else heard this??????????????


OOOOh and about the president not wanting to take full reponsibility or afraid he would have to..isn't that why we have presidents???????????????
not to sit around and say..NOT MY FAULT..but to react to crisis..and do something about it..instead of worrying about maybe having to "TAKE RESPONSIBILTY " of a catastrophe????????? or have we just become a nation of cowards with no one wanting any responsibility???????????..oh no..hot potatoe ..the buck does not stop here..ohhh noooo..I don't want to touch it..so lets throw it all in the laps of the very pigs who created the fing mess in the first place..is that what you want and expect??????????

[On the Road]

95. So Having Known from the Beginning

that this is likely to continue through August, you would have wanted to go through exactly that scenario: illegal takeover resulting with no appreciable difference in effect? Amazing.

[flyarm]

96. please do not put words in my mouth..What i would have liked seen is experts throughout the world

being brought in ..instead of being turned away, as they were, and had collaborative scientists and well experts working together to try to solve this ..but instead we got a cluster fuck by our Government turning over everything to BP who CAUSED THIS CATASTROPHE!

As broadcast 1 month ago in Fla Local news and media outlets..everyone was kept at arms distance ..BP ws not collaborating with anyone..they were keeping scientists away and lying to them and environmental folks were being lied to ..and anyone who could have brought expertise to the table were kept far away from this disaster! And these folks were very vocal about it..and on our local news Objecting loudly to what and how it was being handled.

So according to you , am I supposed to be happy that top world wide experts were kept away by both BP and our government while the Gulf, that is my back yard, fills with toxins and toxic soup ..stealing it's life and the life within it???????????? And causing an ecological disaster which could take hundreds of years to clean up..or would it have been better had experts been allowed..allowed,..to help solve this gusher??????

Many of these folks had set up headquarters in my county in Fla and on our local news they said very clearly they were getting a run around by both our government and BP..they were looking at staging a protest of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano when she was coming that week..that was in the very early stages of this gusher. The experts were saying they were being shunted by BP and getting nothing but lies and runaround. They were scientists and Science professors from throughout the world that had come to try to help!
They were being lied to by BP about the Toxic air that was coming inland..( that we were all breathing doing god knows what damage to our lungs) and down the entire coast of Florida. They were being lied to about the Black over the Gulf in our area..which we all know NOW..was the dispersant's that were being blown down the coast by the wind..

What i am saying..my words not yours, is the experts were kept far away from this because a massive cover up was going on..by BP and our Government..so experts were kept well away from the Gusher..putting the entire Gulf at risk ..many many Nations offered help and were turned away by both BP and our government. Other nations offered boats to skim the water..but instead BP was using Chemicals to mask the enormity of the spill..from the get go! From DAY ONE!

[liberation]

57. Sorry, but Obama's public image is neither the victim here, nor should be our priority

he is the president. Although I agree that silly comparisons with previous events are a very intellectually dishonest way of framing debate. I must say that Obama's feelings and their preservation should not be our main priority.

Good leadership is self evident, and he is the president not the main PR rep of Feel Good Inc... the buck stops at his desk. We can't have it both ways: pretend he has the leadership of FDR, while having the same Teflon coating of Reagan.

I hope he comes through. Because right now, he is our president. However, just because he is our only choice right now it does not imply he gets an automatic pass regardless of his performance.

[flyarm]

97. +1

[truedelphi]

60. Nope, it ain't. It is instead this

CorpoRATe Puppet President's proof of just how oily the strings connecting him to the Big Money Purse in the CorpoRATe Sky of Campaign Donations happen to be.

[vaberella]

61. I agree with you. This is BS. I don' tknow why they don't blame BP. n/t

[flyarm]

103. BP could only do what they were allowed to do! Ask Obama advisor Tom Dashle and Panetta why they

were on the Board of BP..and what they did to stop BP??????????? along with the merchant of death for 9/11 Christine Whitman!

[vaberella]

112. Those allowances were around since before Bush. So please. n/t

[judesedit]

62. And that's the truth. Period.

Thank you very much!

[dog_lovin_dem]

64. I seldom post my

opinion on DU, but felt a strong need to thank you for this post! A hearty K&R. :toast:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

65. Thank you.

Well said!

I just hope he uses what he learns from this to wean us from oil.

[Lindsey]

71. EXCLELLEST POST! 100O'S OVER. n/t

[nightrain]

66. yeah, we could wait for another month or so and totally wipe out some

species. We've got plenty of time, no hurry or anything. :sarcasm: off


c'mon folks, this is an emergency, treat it like one, don't keep dithering and dallying.

[jeff47]

89. You can complain about dithering and dallying...

...when you come up with a better plan.

When the gusher first started, it was widely reported that relief wells were the only proven way to stop the gusher, and that they'd take about 3 months to drill. First relief well started on May 2nd, (11 days after the fire) which is about as fast as one could expect a drilling rig to move to the site and set up shop. They've been drilling 24/7 since then. (The 2nd relief well stopped for a bit while they consider using its blow-out preventer on the gusher)

It was also widely reported that a few new and/or unproven ideas would be tried, in the hopes that they might reduce the gusher before the relief wells were done. So far, 1 proved marginally successful, and the rest have failed.

BP, from the start, said there was one effective plan, and it would take 3 months.
The outside experts, from the start, said there was one effective plan, and it would take 3 months.
The government, from the start, said there was one effective plan, and it would take 3 months.
The environmentalists, from the start, said there was one effective plan, and it would take 3 months.
The people on DU, from the start, have claimed that this gusher will run on for decades and cause extinction of all life on the planet. :sarcasm:

So what, exactly, should they do now? What tip can you give them to cap the well faster? 'Cause I'll happily find BP's phone number so you can tell them how to fix this disaster more quickly.

[nightrain]

109. do you listen to Thom Hartmann? He has plenty of ideas culled from scientists and pros in

the field. You could inform yourself.

We're not just complaining, there are options out there. If this gusher were in GWB's backyard, don't you think it would have been capped by now? Where's Red Adair and his crew? They got the Iraqi oil field fires contained in decent time. Yeah, I know, that was on land... so what was BPs back up plan? Oh. NONE.

And we leave it to the corporations to regulate themselves! Dumb and neglectful. Bunch of scairdy cats in these Administrations! "Oh, we don't want to risk the election contributions by being regulatory or anything, like doing our damn job!"

AFAIK, ALL these huge corporations need to be broken up and monitored VERY closely.

[jeff47]

114. I regularly hear suggestions.

And the vast majority are ones that can't possibly work.

For example, Chris Matthews wants frogmen to swim out of a submarine and fix the well. Never mind that there are no submarines currently in operation that can go that deep (only ROVs), and that even the deepest-operating hard suits can't operate that deep. Even if we conjure up solutions to those two problems, there isn't anything an on-site diver to can fix.

Or there's people saying we should just dump a lot of cement into the gusher...which will just be blown out by the oil before it sets. Or dump a lot of dirt over the gusher to bury it (again, will be blown out by the oil).

So again, what specifically should be tried that hasn't been tried?

[nightrain]

120. read Jim Hightower's article if you're at a loss for ideas, or are you just

being an obstinate jerk?

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/06/02-2

Government Impotence and Corporate Rule
by Jim Hightower

<<snip>>

"Last week, with 63 percent of the public disapproving of his meek deference to BP, the president of the United States of America was reduced to convening a press conference to insist that he was "engaged" and, behind the scenes, was "monitoring" BP's efforts.

Wow, monitoring! Excuse me, but who's the president here? Obama should personally take charge —-cancel all of his social and political events, convene an emergency response team of the best scientific minds in the world, announce a clear plan of clean-up actions, install all relevant Cabinet officials in a Gulf Coast command center to direct the actions, make daily reports on progress to the public, fire a mess of failed regulators and go to Congress with sweeping legislation to replace America's oil dependency with a crash program of conservation and renewable energy sources.

Oh, he should also wring a few corporate necks. Instead of monitoring these criminals, prosecute them — and put the public back in charge of our government."

------------

or Obama could continue his social engagements, such as concerts in the WH featuring Paul McCartney. Is he really engaged as President, having too much fun at it, playing at it?

[KansasVoter]

68. -1, because it is in Obama's court now and he HAS to fix it!

[Tumbulu]

70. Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt)

[ClassWarrior]

72. It's his Godzilla vs. Mothra.

:eyes:

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

77. It's his Kobayashi Maru.

:crazy:

NGU.

[scentopine]

73. He didn't cause the problem, however he is responsible for fixing it...

"I'm going let him find his way through this mess. I will either laud him when he does, or call him a quitter when he throws his hands up in disgust, saying it's a problem that can't be fixed. I fully expect the former, rather than the latter. I'm not going to second guess him."

This isn't time to let him find his way, stumbling around in the dark.

1. RELEASE THE DATA ON THE SPILL and get it into the hands of the largest and most skilled engineers and scientists in the world. We can't evaluate solutions and progress if we don't have the goddamn data. What is the flow rate - is it better or worse, what is the composition of the oil, what are is the composition of the dispersant, how many leaks, there is so much data that is being kept secret.

2. GET THE BEST PEOPLE ON THE JOB. Get BP off this job. How much more shit from BP do we have to listen to? Hayward is now saying it's not the oil making people sick - it's food poisoning. Goddamn the politics around this shit. BP has no more knowledge about deep sea leak control than any operator in the Gulf. But they do have a much worse track record regarding decisions. We were wrong to trust them before the disaster, we are wrong to continue to trust them after the disaster.

3. LET THE PRESS DO ITS JOB FOR CHRIST SAKE! This is one time where the press needs the pressure on the government to hold them accountable. Instead they are asking BP for permission to document and take pictures of public beaches. Is this the soviet union?

No - after 40 days of jerking around with flow rates and "top hat" and "top kill" and "kill bill" time's up.

Sorry, we won't sit back and watch the horror unfolding and just "chill". It was disgusting when republicans blamed 911 on 8 years of Clinton, it is equally disgusting to hear democrats blame this on 8 years of Bush. Both parties are at fault. This is a time for democratic leadership to shine and Obama trots out Hayward and this asshole Coast Guard commander just parrots everything BP says. Jesus. Obama made a bad call - he told us "drill baby drill" over nearly entire Eastern Seaboard (I'm paraphrasing, he used much more flowery language). Now he's doing everything he can to keep his nose clean.

DLC and OFA better get their shit together because trying to convince us that its all under control is (if I may quote Rahm Emanuel) "fucking retarded".

This is about the precious time that has been wasted and lives that will be ruined as a result. No political party is worth that price.

[jeff47]

90. Tip: Do not rely on the evening news for adequate coverage

If you want better coverage of the spill, I recommend this blog: http://www.theoildrum.com It's run by oil people, so appropriate grains of salt are necessary, but they know the science and engineering involved.


"1. RELEASE THE DATA ON THE SPILL and get it into the hands of the largest and most skilled engineers and scientists in the world."

Already done. BP is hosting them at their HQ in Houston.

"2. GET THE BEST PEOPLE ON THE JOB. Get BP off this job."

Well, the best people are already at BP's HQ, as mentioned above. As for best oil companies to contain the gusher, the 'best' would be Exxon. Do you really want the government to take over and then hand it to the folks who caused the Valdez spill? 'Cause government doesn't have the equipment or people to completely run this without the oil industry.

"3. LET THE PRESS DO ITS JOB FOR CHRIST SAKE!"

This one I agree with.

"Now he's doing everything he can to keep his nose clean."

Except, of course, admitting that he was wrong about offshore drilling safety during his press conference. Well, 'wrong' or 'lied to' depending on what kind of semantic games you want to play. He's backing down from business-as-usual offshore drilling, and hopefully we'll be able to pressure him into better regulations. The reorg of MMS is a good start.

"it is equally disgusting to hear democrats blame this on 8 years of Bush."

Considering the Bush administration was the ones who approved the setup with one blow-out preventer and no pre-drilled relief wells, why exactly should they escape all blame?

Considering Reagan/Bush I gutted our government, why should they escape all blame?

Considering Clinton didn't do anything to fix the damage caused by Reagan/Bush I, why should he escape all blame? 'Cause he should have been clairvoyant enough to see this spill coming, under the standard you are applying to Obama.

Some problems take time to solve. No matter how fast we wish they could be solved. Yelling louder doesn't fix it faster.

[scentopine]

99. Tip: Stop spewing talking points

Bullshit talking point number 1.
"Already done. BP is hosting them at their HQ in Houston."

Your link doesn't say shit and you are just parroting talking points in that link. How much oil is leaking? Can you answer the question? Jesus you provide ZERO data to back up your assertions. BP is still managing the job I can find plenty of facts to prove BP is not the best company for the job including their decision making that caused this disaster. Your assertion is false. Please post a link to the data. http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/05/post_6.html

Bullshit right wing response number 2.
"Well, the best people are already at BP's HQ, as mentioned above. As for best oil companies to contain the gusher, the 'best' would be Exxon. Do you really want the government to take over and then hand it to the folks who caused the Valdez spill? 'Cause government doesn't have the equipment or people to completely run this without the oil industry."

Let's see where I called for Exxon to be in charge, hang on, looking, just a minute, patience, ummmm, no where. Exxon and BP simply manage oil contract firms. BP has the worst record in the business. They don't own the equipment and lack skills for deep water drilling and they have shown reckless disregard for sound engineering and safety practices. They should not be involved except as to follow orders from other more capable people.

Bullshit talking point number 3
Title "Tip: Do not rely on the evening news for adequate coverage"

"Considering the Bush administration was the ones who approved the setup with one blow-out preventer and no pre-drilled relief wells, why exactly should they escape all blame?"

You say you agree that the press should do their job, but your titled your as quoted above. So I'm calling bullshit. Just like a political hack, you are trying to spin it.

Let's see where I said Bush should escape all the blame... hang on, looking, just a minute - google is slow, um searching... ok, results are in. I didn't. I guess in the words of Obama we should look forward, except when looking forward exposes the incompetence in democratic leadership. Then we should look backward to point the finger.

How about you go back to your comfy little place at BP's HQ and stop putting words in peoples mouths. Its only making us angrier. And trust me if there was ever a reason to be angry this is it.

We are fucking angry and you better get used to it.

[jeff47]

116. Tip: Anger should be used where it can actually be helpful

"How much oil is leaking? Can you answer the question?"

Lots. Exact quantity doesn't matter, as I've told you many, many times. Once you reach the 'send everything' threshold, you don't need to know how much more there is. At least when capping the well. The government needs an estimate for levying fines, and they have one.

"I can find plenty of facts to prove BP is not the best company for the job"

And where exactly did I say they were the best for the job? The 'best' company would probably be Exxon, due to their offshore drilling safety record. However, they've got a not-wonderful transportation safety record, as residents of Alaska can attest.

BP however is 1) already on site, and 2) the liable party. Government takeover = government liability and BP goes away scott-free. We will then have to endure decades of complaints from people like you that BP wasn't held accountable by Obama.

"Please post a link to the data"

Ditto. You've provided a link to a news story where:
1) A CEO is trying to cover his company's ass. But what, exactly, should they do about the underwater plumes? Cap the well, no? Nevermind that oil out in the water is about the best place for it to be, since bacteria there will eat it. Having no oil is by far the ideal, but as I keep saying, in a crappy situation like this your choices are "bad", "worse" and "terrible".

2) Dispersants might harm humans! Yep, it might. We know oil definitely will. Which would you like? Oil that stays around longer, which we know will cause harm, or dispersants that greatly speed up degrading of the oil and may cause harm? I've heard reports that other dispersants are more effective. I've also heard reports that other dispersants are less toxic. I haven't seen anyone list a dispersant that is both more effective and less toxic. Again, the choices are "bad", "worse" and "terrible". Do you go with more effective and more toxic, or less effective and less toxic?

So where's the data? What's the size and chemical composition of the plumes? The analysis in your story is limited to what it smells like. What's the LD-50 of the dispersant?

Oh wait, there's no actual data in your link either. Damn.

"Exxon and BP simply manage oil contract firms. BP has the worst record in the business"

If BP is just managing the contract firms, why does BP's safety record matter? Under your theory, BP's not doing any of the work and we can just swap in any old manager on top of the professionals doing the actual work. So BP or not really wouldn't matter under your theory.

"You say you agree that the press should do their job, but your titled your as quoted above. So I'm calling bullshit"

I'm saying that the most of the press, especially the national press, is doing a terrible job regardless of access. Local press, especially the Houston Chronicle and a few oil blogs, are doing very good reporting. Access is an independent problem from journalistic competence.

"Let's see where I said Bush should escape all the blame"
That would be here:
"It was disgusting when republicans blamed 911 on 8 years of Clinton, it is equally disgusting to hear democrats blame this on 8 years of Bush"

You follow it up with a stereotypical "pox on both their houses" attack, but all of your anger and yelling is directed at Obama.

No anger directed at W's administration for approving the drilling without adequate safety measure, nor the conservative's 3-decade long deregulation of the industry that lead to it, nor Clinton's failure to clean up MMS back during his presidency. If you actually believed in your "pox on both their houses" argument, one would expect some vitriol for both houses.

"We are fucking angry and you better get used to it."

Then point that anger at the idiots who caused the spill, and work with us to regulate offshore drilling out of existence. Instead, I fear you'll continue to fight against Obama and do your damnedest to ensure a Republican Congress in 2010 which will block all attempts at reform.

After all, if it's a pox on both their houses, why does it matter which house is in charge?

This will be followed by more anger that the Democrats failed to reign in 'big oil' and Obama's just an evil corporatist, ignoring that a Republican Congress has the power to block reform.

But keep yelling at the gusher. I'm sure your anger alone will stop it soon.

[scentopine]

119. Your smug apologies for Obama are not helping. You are not helping, Obama had a chance

to regulate and fix MMS from well documented problems. He deliberately chose not to. He kept things the same. This makes people angry.

Provide me the data that you say is accessible - provide it or stop telling people it won't help. You are arguing the null hypothesis and refusing to provide the data that would prove you are correct. Without the data you cannot make an argument that we don't need data. Man, what don't you get about that? Are you an MBA? Its not that complicated to understand the value of data.

Why is BP the right company to be in charge. You have not answered they question. You provided bullshit.

How much oil is leaking you have not answered the question. You provided bullshit.

First you say, don't believe the press. Then you say you agree the press should do its job. then you say don't believe the press. You provided bullshit.

Apologists are like a curse - every time they post, 100 more democrats stay home from the polls.

You say -BP however is 1) already on site, and 2) the liable party. Government takeover = government liability and BP goes away scott-free. We will then have to endure decades of complaints from people like you that BP wasn't held accountable by Obama.

They are not on site - their site burned down and sunk into the ocean, killed 11 people and is spewing oil.

I say Bullshit. The government CAN remove BP. One executive order is all it takes. You'd rather let this thing drag on and on poison 25% of Gulf just because it is easier than holding BP accountable AND getting them off the job?

You say - I've heard reports that other dispersants are more effective. I've also heard reports that other dispersants are less toxic. I haven't seen anyone list a dispersant that is both more effective and less toxic. Again, the choices are "bad", "worse" and "terrible". Do you go with more effective and more toxic, or less effective and less toxic?
WTF? Where? Provide the data!! The only data I can find IS FROM BP.

http://www.poten.com/NewsDetails.aspx?id=10392601
http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100601/GJLIFESTYLES/100609951/-1/CITNEWS


You say - Then point that anger at the idiots who caused the spill, and work with us to regulate offshore drilling out of existence. Instead, I fear you'll continue to fight against Obama and do your damnedest to ensure a Republican Congress in 2010 which will block all attempts at reform.

I say - Bullshit. We have a democratic controlled house and executive branch. Obama announced expanded off shore oil drilling. He put Salazar in place. He said drilling was safe. Tell me again how hard democrats are working to "change" things and Obama has no responsibility or accountability in this mess?

You don't have fire in you belly. Nor do you have the intellect to understand when bad engineering and science is at work. You have lied about what I have said and dodged every question. If you are smug and satisfied with Obama's leadership, the lack of data, the press restrictions, you are working for BP not for the good of the public. You are doing everything in your power to defend BP make sure BP stays in charge and trying to convince yus we should be satisfied with this because it is legally convenient for Obama.

Being cold and calculating over a massive catastrophe like this is perfect for Fortune 500 inspired leadership. It has no place in business of fixing difficult technological problems. In summary, you are a perfect repesentative of the new and ineffective democratic party. Right wing, just spewing Reagan neo-con talking points.

Tell me about all the pressure you are putting on the democrats to bad off-shore drilling? That would be 100% inconsistent with nearly every excuse you have made for keeping BP in charge. Are you saying the Gulf is a reasonable sacrifice to achieve some larger purpose. I hope not.

[jeff47]

122. My point is your claims of spread anger is targeted only at Obama

"Obama had a chance to regulate and fix MMS from well documented problems."

So did Clinton. Where's the Clinton hate?

"Provide me the data that you say is accessible - provide it or stop telling people it won't help"

Data on what?

"Why is BP the right company to be in charge. You have not answered they question. You provided bullshit."

No, I explicitly stated the 3 reasons why I think BP should be in charge. Here, I'll list them again:

1) They're already on site. Replacing BP would cause a delay as a new company took over.
2) They have the liability. If the government kicks BP off the site, then BP will argue in court that the government should be liable instead of BP. Because the government took over. While the fines from the feds are going to be significant (roughly $10B from EPA alone), the major liability is going to be in civil suits about lost business and tourism.
3) Nobody's put forward an effective means to stop the gusher that BP isn't trying. Feel free to list any specific methods you think should be done but is not.

Same reasons I've always given. And once they've plugged the well, I want BP barred from any future work in the United States. But that will come later.

"How much oil is leaking you have not answered the question. You provided bullshit."

I believe the last government estimate was something around 12,000 barrels/day. However, this bit of data is useless when trying to plug the well. You can leak 12,000 barrels/day at 1 PSI or 1 million PSI. But stopping those two leaks is vastly different. Something you constantly ignore with your dogged insistence that the exact flow rate must be known before any response is mounted.

"First you say, don't believe the press. Then you say you agree the press should do its job. then you say don't believe the press. You provided bullshit."

Jeez, are you completely incapable of nuance?
1) The national press is doing a terrible job covering this story. Because they known nothing about oil drilling. I believe Chris Matthews is still searching for super frogmen to swim to the wellhead and fix it.
2) Local press and a few blogs are doing a great job covering this story, because they have people who know about oil drilling.
3) The press, regardless of competence, should be allowed unfettered access to anywhere that they would not hamper cleanup. I don't want them in the control rooms of the relief well rigs, but they should be able to take pictures of any beach.

None of those 3 points are contradictory. They're only contradictory if you remove all the details.

"They are not on site - their site burned down and sunk into the ocean, killed 11 people and is spewing oil."

They're on the boats and the relief well rigs. Are you seriously using an incredibly stupid level of literalism?

"I say Bullshit. The government CAN remove BP. One executive order is all it takes. You'd rather let this thing drag on and on poison 25% of Gulf just because it is easier than holding BP accountable AND getting them off the job?"

No. I'm saying that BP would easily dodge civil liability when sued by fishermen and the others harmed by the spill. "We weren't in charge. And we have several experts who will testify that if we were, the damage wouldn't be very bad". Poof! Case goes away.

Second, you have yet to list any alternative that BP is ignoring. You just assume BP wants to keep the spill going...and you don't give a reason. Why exactly does BP want to keep the gusher flowing? Each barrel that flows is lost profit, increased cost and increased liability. From a cold business calculus, plugging that gusher as fast as possible is the correct response. (And then cheaping out on the cleanup, which is when we'll have to watch them very closely).

"WTF? Where? Provide the data!!"

That isn't data. Those are news stories that lack any meaningful data.

"The only data I can find IS FROM BP."

Google revealed this link. Took all of a minute. http://www.epa.gov/emergencies/content/ncp/product_schedule.htm

"Obama announced expanded off shore oil drilling. He put Salazar in place. He said drilling was safe. Tell me again how hard democrats are working to "change" things and Obama has no responsibility or accountability in this mess?"

Time didn't stop three weeks ago. Seen any of Obama's latest speeches, or would that be a bit too problematic for your argument?

And again, if you want it to be a pox on both their houses, you really ought to have some vitriol for the other house

"You don't have fire in you belly"

Has your yelling stopped the oil gusher yet?

"You have lied about what I have said and dodged every question."

Projection much? I have answered every one of your questions. You refuse to listen to my answers since they disagree with yours.

"Being cold and calculating over a massive catastrophe like this is perfect for Fortune 500 inspired leadership"

You continue to argue that it is somehow not in BP's interest to stop the gusher as fast as possible. I'm pointing out that the cold business decision is to fix the gusher as fast as possible. Now you've decided that it means I'm being cold and calculating about the spill....is your rage so great that you're no longer reading?

"You are doing everything in your power to defend BP make sure BP stays in charge and trying to convince yus we should be satisfied with this because it is legally convenient for Obama."

Shar blorg fuzzit, per no zoofa. (just seeing if you're bothering to read what I say).

You have yet to address the liability issue. Why do you want BP to avoid paying for the lives they've ruined, just so you can feel better now?

"Being cold and calculating over a massive catastrophe like this is perfect for Fortune 500 inspired leadership. It has no place in business of fixing difficult technological problems."

Wow are you wrong. Nobody ever solved an engineering problem by running around like a chicken with its head cut off. It takes cold, passionless analysis of the data. Panic leads to stupid decisions.

Btw, you keep talking about data, and then post news articles as if they were data. Do you have the intellect to understand what 'data' is?

"Tell me about all the pressure you are putting on the democrats to bad off-shore drilling?"

Believe it or not, my entire life does not revolve around DU. Nor do I post every single thing that I do during the day.

"That would be 100% inconsistent with nearly every excuse you have made for keeping BP in charge."

Nope, only because you have become absolutely fixated on removing BP. You actually have no idea why I want to keep BP in charge, 'cause you keep asking the exact same question that I answered twice in the previous post, and many times before that.


So...the gusher still flowing? Why haven't you yelled enough to stop it? YELL MORE DAMNIT!!!!

[scentopine]

123. How much oil is spilling? Answer the question. What is the spill rate? Why don't we need to know?

BP should not be in charge. Obama is dead wrong to leave them in charge and so are you and the centrist posse gushing over Obama's leadership.

The Government under Obama has demonstrated terrible decision making that lead to 11 deaths and the worst eco disaster in USA and one of worse in world. Obama made a decision not to clean up MMS. Obama has legal means to remove them even if it means it makes you and other centrists uncomfortable or even if it requires a bit of work (but far less work than managing the spin around 45 days of 50,000 barrels of oil leaking into the Gulf of Mexico) to either declare an emergency, declare incompetence, or employ a variety of legal means to take a company who killed 11 people off the job. Your support of the president's decisions are simply making things worse. They are bad decisions. BP made bad decisions. Obama made bad decisions. Everyone can see this now. The oil (whatever the amount) is still flowing and so are your talking points.

You might be happy, a relevant number of people are not. Many of us work our asses off - trying to get by with less pay, spiraling health care costs and fewer benefits. That is, those of us lucky to be working. I'm in engineering for many years. I have been a minority in my field for 10 years or more as H1Bs and outsourcing have decimated the engineering business. It is a perfectly analogous picture of horrible management on this oil spill. Outsource the decision making to the experts at BP because a government for the people, by the people is too fucking stupid, we just wouldn't know what to do. Jesus. you are so wrong (but very politically correct - do you wear a bow tie?). You have proven yourself cold, calculating and less interested in the devastation and more interested in Obama's brand reputation. I don't make my living of the Gulf but I spend time there with my family and you have no fucking idea how much resentment is building against you and the centrists for telling us our anger is mis-directed. You better do a reality check because we matter and centrists neo-con/neo-libs are really pissing us off.

Last time I checked - Clinton isn't president. Stop the bullshit. Neither is Reagan. Mr. Obama is President. Millions of people use the Gulf including me. I am arguing with you, but I don't respect you any more than I respect the CEO of BP. You both employ the same manipulation of the facts and brush aside rational problem solving ideas and ignore alarming concerns. You are enjoying yourself and comfortable in Obama's centrist purity, smugly telling me that I don't need to know because I can't swim to the bottom and stop the leak. Fucking unbelievable. I've submitted one patent and have another in the works for deep water oil containment. I've done well with difficult engineering problems over many years. Fuck you. What have you done besides sit on your ass and tell me my anger is miss-directed? Wait I now, you run around and tell people that they shouldn't be angry, they should be happy.

BP had ZERO fucking, absolutely ZERO nothing, nada, zip, i.e. NO EQUIPMENT, NO EXPERTISE, NOTHING - the workers were in the ocean dying or being rescued by other people when this thing blew up. They were not on site for at least a week after the explosion with equipment. The CEO and his posse flew in from Europe. They should have been removed and replaced with people who do not have a conflict of interest. Any of the many contracting companies in that area would have been up to the task. BP should have been removed. Without question.

Yesterday Obama announced approval for a new off shore well http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/02/new-oil-well-approved-50_n_598632.html. Now tell me just how fucking effective you and the rest of your centrist posse are at eliminating off shore drilling. Again total Bullshit for your pro-drilling, pro-BP, anti-environment, pro corporate agenda. Defending BP like the neo-cons defended the decision to invade Iraq. You sound just like that.

If BP would tell us how much oil was leaking there would be no question about plumes and gulf currents and satellite photos. The data is being kept secret. Every one in USA who runs an undersea ROV is out there and could be sampling the leak. We'd know ratio of gas to oil, dispressent effects, on and on. All imprortant data. It would take an infintesimally small amount of time to collect the data. But no. We are too busy shoving gulf balls down the hole.

I bet you beam with pride as NASA sends back Hubble photos of the universe as scientists try to estimate the mass and volume. But suddenly, in this case, the data doesn't matter. You know it does, of course. But you won't admit it. It would provide answers regarding liability and blame as well as tell us how much damage will be done over years and years.

You know all this. But you pretend to be contractually obligated by BP and the president to lie and say - what good would it do? You are a perfect representative of the new democrats. Centrists took office and gave liberals a big fuck you. I suspect the favor will be returned in the coming elections.

Looking Past Torture
Wiretapping
Health Reform for Wall Street
Bailouts For Wall Street
Oil Drilling
Oil Spills
Geithner Insuring India Outsourcing will Continue
Fighting against Fed Audit and real reform

And smug centrists, fighting for Fortune 500 as wages and quality of life is spiraling downward. Nice fucking job.

[flyarm]

104. Sorry but I won't read propaganda by the oil boys!sorry you think it nessesary to expose your

talking points with Oil corp web sites!

[jeff47]

117. It's not a corporate blog

It's a blog by oil workers, not oil companies.

And as I said, they have financial incentives that mean they can't be 100% impartial. However, they've got the expertise to discuss the matter in a far better way than the national media.

[Patchuli]

75. Thumbs up! K&R!

Nothing like a dose of reality on the situation!

[Zoeisright]

79. I wish I could rec this a thousand times. Oh, and

this is BUSH AND CHENEY'S FAULT. Cheney, with his super-secret meetings with energy companies in 2003, set the ball rolling on this one.

[JanusAscending]

80. I'm so with you on this!!!

You tell it like it is brother!!

[newtothegame]

83. Obama is perfect. nt

[wiggs]

84. Yep. Now, if he had been given a PDB last August that said "BP determined to put Gulf

at risk for short term profit" and THEN ignored it, telling his staff that they can relax since they've covered their asses, we should all be asking for a frogmarch out of the Whitehouse.

[MindandSoul]

86. Excellent! Thanks!

[caseymoz]

88. People just cannot wrap their minds around the concept of "unprecedented."

Hey people, the planet's survival is at stake. Trying to compare this to any political, natural or man-made disaster we've seen before is simply a way of escaping into the comfort of the past.

Except for more poetic ones like this: the earth is bleeding. It's hemorrhaging blood into its lungs and will die shortly. We would be the microscopic tuberculosis organisms within it that punch the hole in the artery to begin with and are about to die when the earth does. Except we've figured out we just screwed up and might be able to stop it.

[Fruittree]

91. Agreed! Thank you -

[bread_and_roses]

92. So...why is BP seeming to get away with acting like a sovereign nation in it's territorial waters?

What of all the stories of Coast Guard, etc, seeming to do BP's bidding in keeping away journalists? What of the account I heard on Democracy Now of BP refusing to allow clean-up workers to wear - masks? respirators? - some protective gear, sorry, my memory not perfect. What of seeming to follow the BP line on magnitude of spill? What of the over-whelming impression left by the whole business that BP's first priority was not "fixing" the spill but saving its well and capturing the oil? Are these things the administration had no way to address?

Sorry, but after the example of both Health Care "reform" and Financial "reform" when tough talk in public was a cover for deals in back rooms, I have a hard time giving any credence to Obama's "tough" talk on BP. Not to mention the environmental waivers issued since the spill. And don't give me some crock about how they were already in the works and couldn't be stopped - I am sure there are ways that a national emergency - hell, a global catastrophe - can be used to interrupt the ordinary business as usual.

He feints populism in public, then acts in accordance with our Corporate Masters demands behind closed doors.

[flyarm]

105. absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!! + 1 million!!

[indimuse]

93. bingo!

knr!

[Splinter Cell]

106. AMEN

Sometimes it seems there are as many folks around DU that want Obama to fail as there are on the right.....

[nightrain]

110. doubtful. More likely, the folks on DU who criticize Obama want him to

have some spine, to take on the corporate-protecting mentality, to be different, to do what he said he'd do as a candidate. Remember that guy? Just having rhetoric won't cut it.

[yurbud]

115. do you notice how often we're told to sit back, shut up, and trust Obama, and then he screws us?

by making ''compromises'' with corporations that essentially give away the store in exchange for a handful of very modest reforms?

[Bragi]

118. It is his "Iranian hostage moment"

As someone pointed out, Carter's Iranian hostage moment lasted many months, and did in his Presidency.

I think the same may be true of the BP blowout and Obama's Presidency.

It won't be blowout itself that does him in, it will be aftermath issues: the "cleanup" effort, and any resumption of drilling in the Gulf.

[AspenRose]

121. *applause*

:applause: