EPIC FAIL! NO! EPIC - EPIC FAIL!

[wowimthere]

I did not vote for this kind of change! I was looking for the surprise in this speech! I was looking for a president in opposition to the perpetuation of bloodshed. I was looking for the peacetime president... not another war time president. I was looking a president that was promoting prosperity for all. I got none of that. I feel like we are in this continuous loop of doing the same things we've done for years, over and over again... Viet Nam - Iraq... We're in the same mess under a different puppet master. We continue to make the same mistakes and what does it cost ALL of us? Blood and treasure. Obama's speech was a failure of leadership (even if there is a hint of a light at the end of the tunnel) for if one person has to die for wars waged out of lies rather than necessity then we are what we consider the greatest country to never learn a damn thing. Remember... we didn't like Bush because he invaded countries that did not attack us. Yes... Afghanistan did not attack us. Terrorists who travel from one country to the next attacked us on 9/11. One person of a specific origin who wants to bomb us is NOT a country deciding to bomb us. When are we going to stop this neanderthal-like thinking?

Let me be clear. I like President Obama but I do not like his advisers. He is getting all of the wrong advice. He is adopting policies passed down from previous administration that by all accounts were going to come to an end under his administration. This means he truly suffers the same fate as the people he listens to. Compromise cannot be the endgame to a moral responsibility to find better ways of preserving life rather than the annihilation of it. President Obama is thoughtful but he is playing way too much politics now that he is "the" president. There is no way he wanted to have this surge but as reports have said, he was boxed in by the very people he trusts to advise him... Bush's war hawks. Obama struck a happy medium. This is failure is of leadership. He is supposed to lead. Advisory staff are not the leaders and yet he's acting like they carry the weight of the day. He has taken bad advise from advisers in two distinct areas that I'd like to advise he throw out with yesterday's administration. The economy and wars! These advisers are either from some by-gone era or they are hawks who like playing war games with the lives of men and women who honestly want to defend this country from real enemies.

The enemies were not Iraqis, nor were they Afghans. Most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. 9/11 wasn't a war started by these countries. Afghanistan was the place where Bin Ladin fled. That doesn't mean we take out a whole country for one man. Biden's approach was more rational. You find the guys who did this to us and take them out. You don't bomb a whole country into the ground for a handful of guys. That was Bush era doctrine. Aren't we pass this? Obama's failure of leadership harks back to presidents past. Presidents and the advisers they surround themselves with act like children with adult insecurities. They act as though they don't know better because they keep on perfecting the un-learned. There is no such thing as a winnable war. Obama was supposed to stop this kind of madness. Instead, he too lacks the same moral calculus that some of our brightest presidents lack. Morality over politics. That should have been the difference between he and his predecessors.

In fairness to the president, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt... this year... He has only been in office for 11 months. He did not start the chain of events - wars and the economic crisis - that have put us in a deep, deep hole... but he sure could have put the breaks on both by overhauling his advisory staff, and giving new faces a chance. He could have ended the era of stupidity by shutting off the faucet of our men and women being killed in foreign lands that see us as the enemy. (If I didn't know any better I'd think that the GOP actually up-ended the economy and fell down on these wars only to make sure President Obama or anyone who would be elected on the democratic side could fail so they could get back into power. Power is like candy to the GOP. They don't care what it costs the American public as long as they get their fix. And DEMs make the same mistake they always make... play passive politics to hold onto what little power they wield by talking against wars but voting along with the president.)

Before 2012... to be sure... President Obama has got to reform our healthcare system, end the God-forsaken occupation in Iraq, close Gitmo, infuse our economy with a jobs program and draw wayyyy down in Afghanistan. Let me be clear, Obama has done a great deal in the 11 months he's been in office but if he gets to 2010 without settling some of these big scores then he and the Dems will pay a heavy price. Losing some seats in congress maybe par for the course and perhaps in this could have been avoided if they had decided to become a party of real change but this kind of politics pales in comparison to the lives that will be lost on a battlefield that should never have been created.

[gcomeau]

1. Obama expressed clear intent...

...throughout the ENTIRE campaign to escalate Afghanistan. His answer every single last time the question came up was that he intended to pour more troops in.

So frankly, yes you damn well did vote for it unless, of course, you didn't vote for him. And I'm getting frankly sick of people pretending like they have total amnesia of the campaign so there's no way they saw this shocking turn of events coming.

[wowimthere]

3. I understood his rationale for Afghanistan throughout his run but that didn't mean

I agreed with it. I did not pretend anything. It was why I didn't back Clinton. Voting for a president supposes that he will see the light of day on wars... that wars cost us lives. What good is healthcare if a dead soldier can't use it? I wanted him to do the right thing. The right thing is ending these wars so that people will LIVE.

[27inCali]

7. people like you are driving me away from the Left

every thoughtless screed against Obama for choosing not to walk away just makes me realize how totally divorced from reality the far left is becoming. The world is a dark, scary, fucked up place that requires you occasionally to fight to defend yourself, if you don't defend yourself you end up either dead or living under tyrrany.

I say this as someone who has always considered themselves deeply Liberal and still does.

You people are nuts to me, and not just for your reaction to Afghanistan, but the way the Left has handled the HCR debate and most everything else the president has tried to do, you are all so fucking ready to turn on Obama in an instant -a fucking instant- and attack him savagely for the slightest difference in policy from what you -in all your fucking ideological perfection- think is the only way forward.

my message to the Left is, get the fuck over yourselves, you aren't perfect, you don't have all the answers.

If Repugs take back Congress and scuttle Obama's presidency, the resulting suffering in America around the world will be tremendous, and we will largely have the Left to blame for being so fucking impatient and unrealistic and working so hard to undermine Obama at every stage of the game. We got a golden ticket here to save the world, but you guys are tearing it to shreds.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. Please realize that DU does not represent even the base of the progressives, much less the Dem Party

Most people are not this insane - you're just getting a concentrated dose of it when you go to any political site.

[msallied]

12. Agreed 100%

[Cha]

27. +1

Good fucking rant!

[wowimthere]

29. Pro War wasn't why I voted for Obama. I will vote for Obama again but he is wrong here

I do not foresee voting for a republican... in this lifetime. They never have their ship in order but let me ask you this. since you voted for Obama... like I did... do you agree with every single assessment Obama has ever made?

[27inCali]

69. no, but he's got a good track record

I think he is being a big wuss about gay rights personally, but he's a better job than a lot of others would have.

[PVnRT]

34. I guess your sig line means jack shit

Since you're more interested in shutting up people who don't support Obama blindly.

Oh no! A few people say they're through with the Democrats! The horrors! If that's honestly enough to "drive you away from the left," maybe you were never there to begin with.

[wowimthere]

42. Exactly what I'm saying... You can like your president and disagree with him on various issues

[spiritual_gunfighter]

47. People like you should be driven away

When our leaders dont embrace liberal policy, THEY SHOULD HEAR IT! It is simple.

[Milo_Bloom]

61. There is absolutely no need to fight here.

Also, your "golden ticket" already completely blew the opportunity to curb and regulate wall street, so excuse us if we don't buy into his bush like dedication to war either.

[okieinpain]

14. wars also save lives. n/t.

[wowimthere]

23. If we'd end the meddling in other countries we'd be okay

Don't confuse that with helping others. Remember we went to Afghanistan to get Bin-Ladin. we went there to erradicate the kinds of terrorists who attacked us. Problem is they've moved on. You can't keep going to places and bombing them. We can't force democracy. And that's what we're doing with a corrupt government.

[okieinpain]

74. I agree with you 100%. iraq was unnecessary and foolish. n/t.

[MollieBradford]

39. go watch this

and see if you can understand it and tell me again why you didn't vote for Clinton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wyCBF5CsCA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8fknhbB-Xo

[jgraz]

15. HOPE... CHANGE... YES WE CAN...

Obama expressed a lot of intents. Too bad it's THIS one he decided to follow through on.

[kestrel91316]

2. "adviCe"

[treestar]

4. Epic use of caps!

Epic over-exaggeration and true need to study a lot more history and a lot more about the present.

[wowimthere]

5. War is epic. Life is precious.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. Is life precious before or after Pakistan's nuclear weapons become the Taliban's? (nt)

[wowimthere]

49. You know the answer to that one like I do but you did say Pakistan... right?

so you concede that Al-qaida is in Pakistan? So why are we in Afghanistan now if the bad guys are in Pakistan? That's right, you will no doubt move that goal post.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

50. No, I didn't concede that.

Nowhere did I even implicitly state that Al Qaeda is in Pakistan. Nice try though.

[HughMoran]

6. I'm still looking for the sacrasm smily

:wtf:

[dionysus]

9. elevens?1!!11?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. ZOMGWTFBBQ!!1!11!@#!@

"wowimnotallthere" is a more apt screen name.

[jenmito]

13. Unrec. If you voted for Obama expecting him to NOT continue the war in Afghanistan,

you weren't paying attention. You're equating Iraq with Afghanistan. Obama ran on Afghanistan NOT being Iraq-calling Iraq a diversion and Afghanistan necessary.

[jgraz]

16. I voted for Obama expecting him to be intelligent

And this is not the decision of an intelligent man.

[Baltoman991]

17. Yet is was

a decision we all knew he was going to make. Well, at least those of us who listened to him knew.

[jgraz]

21. I seem to remember people criticizing B*sh for not changing with new information

Obama's had 11 months to learn about Afghanistan. He's been in office while the elections were blatantly stolen and the Karzai family was exposed as a drug cartel. Yet he's still sending more troops into this mess.

[wowimthere]

24. Thank you! And I like this president but "Good" common sense has to rule the day

[jenmito]

18. So when he said over and over and over that he wanted to send more troops into Afghanistan

you weren't listening and so you didn't know he was going to do such a stupid thing IYO? And he's not intelligent because of it?

[jgraz]

19. That was before the fraudulent elections

But yes, I was listening. I was also listening to HOPE, CHANGE and YES WE CAN. Obama should be making better decisions than this.

[jenmito]

28. Obama figured the fraudulent elections into his equation if you were listening last night.

And he DID run on "hope, change, and yes we can" which INCLUDED concentrating on Afghanistan rather than the Iraq war which had nothing to do with 9/11.

[jgraz]

41. Then it's an even dumber decision than I thought

Though I must admit, I had trouble listening after the RAH RAH 9-11 Cheneyisms.

[jenmito]

45. It's not Cheneyisms to talk about 9/11 about AFGHANISTAN. You really don't get it,

do you?! The 9/11 attacks were planned in Afghanistan. Bush and Cheney always, wrongly, mentioned 9/11 in regards to IRAQ. Jeez-it's not cheering it on if you just mention it in the context of the TRUTH.

[jgraz]

58. Exactly how will 30,000 more troops prevent another 9/11?

Best estimates put the Al Qaeda population of Afghanistan at around 100. Do you really think there's still a threat there? Really? (and not just because President McDreamy said so?)

[jenmito]

64. Get lost with your "President McDreamy" bs. n/t

[jgraz]

65. Care to prove me wrong?

What's the actual threat that we're dealing with?

[MollieBradford]

43. yeah

Just think how much harder he would have had to cheat with the help of the DNC if these people had actually listened to him and didn't vote for him.

[wowimthere]

20. equating that wars cost lives... 100 thousand troops for 200 hundred al-Qaida?

I voted for Obama. I stand by my vote. That doesn't mean the war policy smells great. Unbelievable. I voted like everyone else did for change especially in this area. Some of you think we should accept everything just because we knew what he intended to do with regard to Afghanistan. You live and you learn.

[jenmito]

30. Did you listen to him last night as well as during his campaign?

Your OP calls both Iraq and Afghanitan illegal occupations. Obama called Afghanistan a JUST war which he always said he'd concentrate on and send more troops into. You said you voted for a peace president. Did you think Obama's position on foreign policy was the same as Kucinich's?

[wowimthere]

37. i heard what he said and he did say that the right war was Afghanistan...

He has been very consistent. His consistency on this issue does not however mean he is correct. If this were the only way to get war strategy correct then there would be no debate and he wouldn't have to get together with his war cabinet. I voted for him in Hopes that he would come to a "good" commonsense approach to Afghanistan. Escalating... building up to 100 thousand troops is advised by Bush strategists. Counter insurgency in that country. They are in the middle of a civil war. Karzai is corrupt. We all know that Al-qaida is not in Afghanistan. They are now in Pakistan. That's who we should be dealing with. I do not think Obama is Bush! I think if more violence ensues this does not look like winning.

Ask an Afghan how they would feel with 30 thousand more troops in their own country?

[MollieBradford]

44. oh I see

if he fooled you with all his talk of being anti-war, you have no right to be mad or disagree with him.

[jenmito]

46. He didn't try to fool anyone with "all his talk of being anti-war." People were wrong to

believe he was anti-war when he never said he WAS anti-war! It's not HIS fault that some people didn't listen to him!

[wowimthere]

22. you think I wrote this to get recs? Do you even understand the cost of wars?

I'm talking about wars in general. You only have approx 200 al-qaida in Afghanistan. And now you have 100 thousand there to insist that they live they way we should live. Wow. I have a voice. This is called Democratic Underground isn't it? Democracy means I get my say just like the president got his say.

I am proud of vote for Obama. Would do it again but a vote is one thing and issues are another. I would vote for him again but don't equate a vote with falling asleep at the wheel. That's what you're doing. We're not sheep.

[jenmito]

33. Nope. But we can unrec your thread so it's not on the "Greatest" page...

so fewer people see it. And you were obviously NOT listening if you think Obama wants to make Afghanis live like Americans. That was BUSH. Obama has said MANY times that HE does NOT want to force our way of life on anyone-unlike Bush.

You surely have the right to say what you want to-it doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. And by your OP, you clearly DON'T.

[wowimthere]

35. And this means you do? Wow! Ever listen to Matthew Hoh? I am not alone.

Plenty of experts say exactly what I've said... Congressmen - Kucinich, Arianna Huffington, senators, experts and people who have been there like Matthew Hoh.

I heard Obama. Escalation is not a recipe for success. If you escalate to solve an Afghan problem then it isn't what you're saying that matters, it's what you're doing and how Afghans interpret what we are doing.

Watch the video on the front of DU: U.S. Veterans and Afghan People Urge President Obama To Not Escalate The War. You act like you don't know a thing about war.

You want to stop people from seeing what I say? LOL... I don't care what you unrec: I'm having my say and if you want to stop someone from having their say... go to the other side. They do plenty of that in the GOP camp.

[jenmito]

36. Yes-I, unlike you, knew I was voting for someone who ran on adding troops to Afghanistan,

for someone who was NOT a "peace candidate," who was against the Iraq war and wanted to bring our troops from IRAQ and who had no interest in forcing democracy on the Afghan people. Obama disagreed with Kucinich THEN and he disagrees with Kucinich NOW.

I used my "unrec" to show my opinion of the OP not being worthy of being seen by many people. There are obviously more people here who agree with me on that than don't. I'm not going to the other side. I'm a Dem. And I know whom and what I voted for.

[wowimthere]

40. That makes two of us... I knew what I was voting for... that didn't mean I agreed with everything

he said. You're confusing. Voting does not mean you give a blank check on everything. All things change. Many may agree with you. You think that makes you correct? You think that just because people understood what the president said as a candidate for the presidency meant that they agreed with him on this issue, now? By this metric no one would respond to this post. No one would even read it.

A lot of people agreed with Bush before the Iraq war became unpopular. I took a lot of heat for speaking against it. In fairness Obama inherited Bush's mess but if agreement with one side over another is the prescription for ending the debate, you've already lost. This debate will continue as long as people are dying.

[jenmito]

48. I searched your posts made in 2008. You considered Afghanistan the "real threat"...

"...If indeed Bush lied us into this war (while taking his eye off of the real threat in Afghanistan) and we now know this to be true, what the F*%k are we still in Iraq for?..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6304493

[wowimthere]

51. you are working in the past tense... do you not think conditions change...

this an escalation. You think people think the same now as they did yesterday? If all conditions remain the same, Obama would never convene a war cabinet for anything. I understand how I saw things then. The conditions were different then. If we had not been dithering in Iraq "then" we would have caught the perps that committed 9/11 "then". The game changed.

How are they today? You see, Al-quada "was" there. Was there. Where are they now? All over the place. In Pakistan. Now that you've done your research tell me something. Do you ever change your mind about a thing once the conditions change, once you know more information or do you just simply stay the same without looking at facts as they occur?

[jenmito]

53. You claimed just because you voted for him doesn't mean you agreed with everything

he campaigned on. Well, I just showed you DID agree with him on Afghanistan. But now you're saying Afghanistan=Iraq. Yes, I change my mind if conditions change. So does Obama which is why he took so long making his thoughtful decision which he vocalized last night. He talked a LOT about Pakistan and its relation to al Qaeda. There were generals just on tv last night talking about how good his speech and explanation were. I trust him.

[wowimthere]

59. "Did" agree "then". Don't agree with escalation "Now". There is a difference.

Conditions have changed. And if Al-Qaeda aren't there now, why are we there en mass? In this sense we become an occupying force... just like in Iraq. Al-Qaeda is no longer there. Generals and vets have weighed in. Escalation only fuels Afghan rage. They don't trust the U.S.

[jenmito]

63. You said today that even though you voted for him you didn't agree with him

THEN. Funny how even though you didn't agree with him then you didn't speak out against it then. If you listened to his speech last night, you KNOW why we're there now. It has as much to do with Pakistan as Afghanistan if not more. Just as many generals and vets said it was a GOOD idea as thought it wasn't. And Afghans DO want us there. Did you see the thread about Code Pink going to Afghanistan to talk to Afghani women and they were surprised to hear women saying they want us there?

[wowimthere]

68. It's a complicated situation in which there are no really good answers

Some of agree, others disagree. The situation when he talked about during his run for the presidency was much different then. Now there is virtually no Al-Q presence. Then vs. now. I spoke up against the Iraq invasion. How much information on Afghanistan was really available other than Al-Q was plotting against us? I'm speaking up now because Al-Q is all over the place and virtually not in Afghanistan... where we are escalating. Matthew Hoh and other veterans and ret. generals are asking the same questions I'm asking. Why do we need to put 30 thousand more troops in Afghanistan if Al-Q aren't there anymore. Why do we have to get into the middle of an Afghan civil war. It seems now... we have to deal with Pakistan... not Afghanistan now.

[Yes We Did]

72. 30,000 troops for less than 100 people.

Wow is right... Afghanistan WAS the threat... That was almost two years ago. Since when is it smart to send 30,000 troops to capture or kill 100 people?

[wowimthere]

62. And the debate rages on n/t. Many of us do know what we are talking about

We don't accept everything just because we voted.

[wowimthere]

25. Don't rec my thread... hear my voice... everyone of us has a voice. I sent my memos to the President

I used it there. I will use it here. That's called keepin' people honest. I told him not to follow the course of the last administration. I trust but trust is situational. I heard his Afghan policy. I did not vote for him just because of that policy. It was comprehensive. I hoped he wouldn't continue and I'm saying President Obama... don't keep doing this. I have that right.

[Arkana]

26. what

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. This thread delivers what it promises.

[wowimthere]

32. Video on DU: U.S. Veterans and Afghan People Urge President Obama To Not Escalate The War

Many urged President Obama not to send more troops.

[ShortnFiery]

38. We were not even recognized as "a focus group" by President Obama.

:(

[jeanpalmer]

52. Far too many excuses there for Obama

No one has him in an arm lock making him continue this war. He could stop it tomorrow. He could have ended it his first day in office. The problem isn't on the exterior -- it's inside him. For whatever reason, he has decided to continue it. At this point, it's not Bush's fault, it's not the Republican's fault, it's not his advisors' fault, it's his fault.

Too many people here are giving him a free pass because he has a D behind his name. They've basically have joined the War Party. No difference between them and the Palin/McCain clique on this issue. They'll try to nuance a difference, but there is none. If this were George Bush doing the same thing, they'd be all over his case. They've sacrificed their principles on this issue for one personality.

Obama inherited a bad economy about which there is little he can do. His options are very limited. The economy is a powerful and complicated force that no one individual can understand or control. So I give him a free pass on the economy. Not so with this war. This war is completely controllable by him. He gives all the orders. It's his responsibility alone. So if he wants to wage aggressive war against a helpless people whose only crime is they are not sufficiently westernized, shame on him. And shame on the people on this board who are trying to justify it. They have lost their way.

[wowimthere]

55. Thank you! You get it!

[yui]

73. Well said.

Although I have to disagree with you on one thing: too many people are not giving the President a pass because he has a D behind his name - too many people are giving him a pass because he is Barack Obama. Having a D behind one's name doesn't seem to count for all that much these days on DU. Dennis Kucinich, D, comes to mind. And Eric Massa, D. And many, many other Democrats. They sure don't seem to be getting a pass because they have a D behind THEIR names.

[butterfly77]

54. Could you tell us what your plan..

is for leaving Afghanistan and the strategy to leave,and timeframe?

[wowimthere]

56. Sure... draw down immediately... like right now. Focus on the perps we let get away.

Bush let Bin Ladin get away. They are now in Pakistan. One estimate is that Al-queda represents less than 100... less than 100 members. 100 thousand of ours for say 90 members in Afghanistan? Of course you draw down and focus on Pakistan... for now. Leave Afghanistan to deal with their own issues. Matthew Hoh, veteran who retired explains it succinctly. You draw down, not escalate.

[mstinamotorcity]

57. do you have a plan

When a leader makes decisions for the entire Country,military,and regions that we occupy in wartimes, he is supposed to take some of his advisor's suggestions. But when you criticize this President its like people really think he is a magic genie. We have a majority congress and senate and they fight with each other more than they come together to solve the big crisis. Afghanistan is a serious matter.And I am glad he did give some facts that i can at least relate to. When Dubya was there it was like Afghanistan? Afghanistan what? And if some of our bills on the democratic agenda don't get passed there is no need to hold him totally responsible because Capitol Hill is got two parties there. The party of no no no,and the party of we must have sixty votes or nothing. So cut him some slack and see what we can do to help because when you are not part of the solution it means you may be part of the problem.

[wowimthere]

60. When we don't agree with our leaders and we tell them why we don't... we are helping.

I am exercising my right just like everyone else. The problems arise when we sit on our hands and say nothing... just follow along. I like this president but this is a choice we've all seen all too often. That is the problem.

[mstinamotorcity]

66. ok i understand your point

view. but i would like to here some suggestions on how we get out of this drug war, by all means that seems what this war really is. i just know whenever you try to put the brakes on that kind of money, it is easy for people to get pissed off. i want us out of all the wars yesterday, but reality lets me know that its not that simple. And sometimes what the President doesn't say has a meaning too.

[wowimthere]

67. you're right about that... it's not a simple solution and even though I know he gave great

deliberation to this, I just feel he may have listened to many of the people responsible to these seemingly endless wars. Again... I like Obama. He's done more for this country than any president in history and in just 11 months. I'm not abandoning him. I just think more war, more escalations into this region is inserting more chaos into the equation.

[mstinamotorcity]

71. Now we find common

ground. Like i say there is nothing like communication to bring in different points of view. I want this war to end but i see some crucial things on the outside too. Like when these troops come home where are there jobs going to be. A lot of them were weekend warriors who never thought they would ever get deployed. I mean some of their jobs are not even in business any more. Some our going to come home and their wife or husband will be involved in an intimate relationship with their best friend or brother or sergent left on base. There will be some who will have PTSD,and all other kinds of emotional issues.They are not even equipped to handle the influx of all the wounded.I do feel that by the time we get out if it really is in eighteen months hopefully by then we will be prepared to be there for their support. Look i remember when my uncle came back from Vietnam he was a different man. He was like my big brother. But it took almost fifteen years before he started coming around.he saw one of his friends get blown up two weeks after being dropped in a hot zone and spent time in a field hospital on morphine to stop the nightmares.My grandmother didn't hear from him after a while and started writing the President to find out where her child was. I had a cousin who got off the helicopter and was killed the first day he was there. Tore my uncle and aunt to pieces.And come to find out that after some point it was all about the drugs coming in dead soldiers caskets,and military ships,and planes to be distributed to american citizens.Wont bring up Iran contra.So yes i worry when the major import of Afghanistan is the miraculous poppy plant. And Dubya had the head drug lord on the U.S. payroll. Are you feeling me yet? Lets just keep reminding our President that he said July 2011. And believe me the r/w won't let him forget.and yes i do wish he was a genie in a bottle who could blink and make it all go away.Peace and love to DU

[butterfly77]

75. You said it better than I..

and you hit a lot of points,all are true we know how many try to portray liberals and progressives as conspiracy theorists but, we know they are lying because we all have experiences in our owns lives that can prove them to be true.

Sad but true their are many who are ilinformed who don't really realize that they are really Dems...We got a lot of work to do.

[IndianaGreen]

70. Obama is just the President! Not Il Duce or the Fuehrer!

Obama (and Congress) works for the American people, not the only way around.