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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:51 PM
Original message
Are Left and Right becoming meaningless straightjackets?
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 11:15 PM by Armstead
I'm serious.

This was prompted by all the bashing of Dennis Kucinich for daring to say that he wanted to forge alliances with right wingers who, like him, oppose the escalation in Afghanistan.

First of all, let me say this unequivocally. I am a progressive/liberal, leftie who in some ways is just short of being a democratic socialist. I unabashedly support the concept of the Democratic Party as the representative of the left half of the spectrim (in theory, anyway)...... My favorite legislators are (or were) clear progressives like Bernie Sanders, Paul Wellstone, Marcy Kaptur, Jan Schiakovski, Barbara Lee etc. My next favorite are clear liberals like Ted Kennedy and Tom Harkin. My least favorite legislators are Republicans. My next least favorite legislators are Blue Dogs like Ben Nelson and slick Corporate DLC types like Evan Bayh.

Having said that, I must say that the definitions of "left" and "right" and moderate increasingly seem to me to be meaningless.

They seem to be straightjackets that ultimately prevent many natural potential alliances and perpetuate the corrupt status quo. Each is a package you are supposed to buy wholesale.

Listening to Sean Hannity the other day, I was reminded that on the right there is a template you are supposed to follow. Everything Democrats, Obama and "liberals" do is supposed to be wrong. Had a Republican president initiated Obama's strategy for Afghanistan, Hannity would be singing his praises. But since it is Obama, it is considered wrongheaded. It's that way with everything, down to trivial bullshit like the "party crashers" as a symbol of the ineptness of the administration.

We on the left are much less inclined to blind groupthink, as the continuing battles on DU attest. But we have our own litmus tests and set of preconceptions.

The problem is that life does not fall into neat little boxes. One may be an economic progressive but a social conservative, or vice versa.

For example, in the 2004 election, some of the "red" states that voted for George Bush also voted to raise their state's minimum wage. For another example, many of the people who oppose "socialized medicine" would bite your hand off if you took away their Medicare benefits. And many leaders recognize this. Notice how the politicians who oppose health care refoerm also whine that it will weaken medicare?

One of the greatest fighters for protection of our individual rights, and one of the staunchest opponents of the Iraq debacle was Ron Paul. Personally I find many of his economic views repugnant. But on certain issues he is much more stalwart and -- dare I say progressive -- than many so-called Democrats.

Likewise with the teabaggers. Before you get out the flamethrowers, let me say that I realize that the teabagger movement is largely a fabrication of Fox News and certain right wing interests. Many of the teabaggers are ignorant nitwits, and worse. Their analysis is fundamentally flawed.

However, below the surface, is the same populist impulse that drives many progressives. The teabaggers are reacting against a corrupt system in which entrenched oligarchs who are screwing the rest of us. They are incensed at the bail outs of Wall St. Sound familiar lefties?

Many of the right wingnuts are beyond reason. However, if others were able to escape their ideological straightjackets for a few minutes, they might be persuadable that the culprit is not "socialists" but the rapaciousness of the powerful.

Unfortunately, the center of power on the "left" as represented by the Democratic Party is not able to make the case because we are beholden to the same corporate interests and share the same world view as the Republican establishment. Therefore we are unable -- or unwilling -- to present a firm case for the values that drive progressives. (Too often, progressives have to go up against Democratic powers as much as Republican ones.)

That's one reason I really like Bernie Sanders. There is probably no one in Congress who is further to the left than he is. But Bernie also recognizes something very important. He believes in his soul that a progressive economic agenda is truly in the best interests of the majority. And -- surprise, surprise -- many people in Vermont who are not "liberals" or "progressives" recognize that and support him because he is a fighter for their jobs and economic interests.

Back to Dennis the K. He should not be beaten up on for wanting to join forces in opposition to the war with those he is not an ideological soulmate with on other issues. Rather, that is the only way many things will get accomplished.

Perhaps, if Democrats and "moderates" had the courage of their convictions on other issues like healthcare, they would also be able to convince many in the middle -- and even some self-professed conservatives -- that something like a stong "Medicare for everyone" form of public health plan is ion their best interests Perhaps, had they stuck to those guns, they could have ignited a groundswell of support for real reform that would transcend the usual boundaries of "left and right" and actually do what is RIGHT (in the non ideological sense).








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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R for a thoughtful post
I agree with you point of view and your conclusions. It really is a fucked up world in which we reside.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, yeah -- many many months ago I posted that the so-called left should be working to find common
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 11:50 PM by scarletwoman
ground with the tea baggers -- that we were missing a golden opportunity to present the truly and rightfully disaffected working class a more useful analysis of our present collective fucked-overness.

We need to stop accusing people of being enemies, and start looking for ways to make them allies. Partisan politics is bullshit when everyone outside of the 1% financial elite is being screwed over by both parties.

The right knows how to cast a compelling narrative -- no matter that it totally distorts the truth. The left would rather turn its better-educated noses up at the "ignorant" masses than offer a better narrative.

Huge mistake.
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. kill the war
whatever it takes.....I think alot of things are more important than mere political association
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cognoscere Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. After what we've seen in the past year or so, maybe
a better distinction would be assholes and non-assholes.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. That;s a nice clear distinction.....
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. The Democratic Party is in no sense 'left'.
There are a few Democrat office holders who are left of center, the party itself is center right and has been for quite a long time. As for the intersection of progressive left and libertarian right - this has been much discussed - see the internet-famous 'political compass' (http://www.politicalcompass.org/) - yes of course we have common ground with right libertarians, and of course the official Democratic Party and the non-insane remnants of the official Republican Party sit tweedle-dum tweedle-dee smack in the middle of the authoritarian right, 'our' party slightly to the left and a little less authoritarian than 'theirs', but both highly engaged in the serious business of permanent war and the care and feeding of billionaires.

However, the insane wing of the Republican Party is wandering off the political compass into the politics of the completely irrational. We really haven't had this sort of political situation before that I am aware of. "Conservative" is hardly a fitting description of the radically stupid. "Right wing" implies at least some sort of coherent ideology, which ideology appears to be entirely lacking in a mindset that can demand that the government keeps its hands off of medicare.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. The ding dongs in the right who want to sliit their own throats are a lost cause....
Guys like Rive and Rush were smart enough to pull of an amazing hat trick. They managed to get a significant number of working and middle class lunkheads to actually identify withe the economic interests of millionairs and corporations over their own self interest.....The theory, as promulgated by guys like Rush et. al is "that taxes on the rich are bad for you because you too may someday be rich."

I'm nit sure whether the boneheads who fell for that are open to persuasion by common sense. (I.e. You have to pay more taxes partly because of because the rich pay less.)

But I believe there are enough peopoe on the fence who could support progressive policies IF progressives could band together enough to build a coherent message and political base....I know, herding cats.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
6. Very much agree. Great OP. K & R. n/t
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. The actual paradigm really seems to be Top and Bottom.
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 01:18 AM by salguine
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girl_interrupted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. K&R
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
11. Best thread of the day
I don't think convincing the american public they want health care is the issue. Its corporate influence of our government IMHO.

Person hood for corporations needs to be revoked. Campaign finance reform needs to be addressed again. Till those two things happen we will have to settle for the scraps.

How you accomplish those two things in a two party system is beyond me. How do you remove the bad when the alternative is the god awful?

I disagree about beating up on Dennis.

k&R
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think you could've stopped before the word "straightjackets"
I made a joke the other day that Kucinich was like PacMan because he goes so far off the left side of the screen that he reappears on the right side. Honestly, the same can essentially be said about the fringes of both sides. The vast majority of the country doesn't agree with either side, and both the left and the right are engaged in bitter war over who can become irrelevant the fastest.

The problem with what you're saying is that the left and the right don't come together to do what is right. They come together only to NOT do something which may be wrong. They don't come together to pass laws. They don't come together to compromise. They don't come together to govern.
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Blue Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. Sure as hell looks that way
When you think about things like the war escalation, the healthcare roadblocks, Joe Lieberman, to name just a few...
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. "a progressive economic agenda is truly in the best interests of the majority."
Would that leading Democrats clued in to that fact.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. It's NOT about "left vs. right" but "Corporations vs. The Average Wage Slave American."
The ruling and political classes USE this canard (left vs. right) to keep us "common folk" at each other's throats while they either keep the status quo or pass more "corporate friendly" bills.

It's a SCAM and we are the "dupes."

FOLLOW THE MONEY and you will always find "the answers."
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Oops -- didn't see this before I posted below -- sorry for the "plagiarism"
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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. Agreed
They do the same thing with race. This is a nation firmly in the grip of corporatism and crony capitalism. Both parties have far too many career politicians who may easily be bought. It is indeed all about the most wealthy and the 95% of us left hardly matter.

If people ever wake up and get off their rears, things are going to get ugly fast.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's not about left and right
Or straight and gay, or black and white, or union and non-union, or Christian and non-Christian, or north and south, or rural or urban.

It's about corporatist and the other 90 percent of us -- who have more in common than we have dividing us. But the corporatocracy has convinced us that we have all these divisions that keep us apart. This is how they can continue to turn us into serfs with our cooperation.

If the 90 percent ever realize what's happening and band together, we can rebuild the country. As long as we maintain the divisions, we're doomed to be slaves.
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
18. Until we understand that Republicans act because of the actions of Democrats...
and that Democrats act because of the actions of Republicans, we are going to be trapped within that stupid left-right dichotomy.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Good point
Ecen when one party comes up with a good idea, the other seems to have a reflexive need to oppose it. Therefore ideas that most would agree with seem to get buried.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. Absolutely.
The stale "left" versus "right" ideological framework is practically useless - it's only relevant to the 3% of the public who like to label and argue instead of dialoguing and fixing things.

It's past time to relegate the liberal-conservative nonsense to the dustbin of history.
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. I seem to remember Kooch's fierce supporters at DU being incensed...
when the president tried to be "bi-partisan". We were told that it was pointless, I guess that theory can now be revised, because Kooch did it? There's no doubt that Kooch is an underground hero, but in the real world, most of us wouldn't miss him if he fell into a black hole tomorrow. Dennis Kucinich, like Michelle Bachmann on the right, represents a wing of the party that thrives on emotional ideology & conflict, not conflict resolution.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
22. I think Kucinich is wrong.
The distinctions between the two major parties generally and what motivates them especially are pronounced.

He took the position he did knowing it would create a stir. I don't think it's going to work for him. Many of his supporters are more earnest than he is, and more progressive over a longer period of time, including when he opposed a woman's right to choose some years ago.

Kucinich received 1% of the Iowa Democratic caucus vote in 2008. The following week he received 1.4% of the New Hampshire vote.

My guess is that that whopping percentage of supporters includes a good many who will not care one iota to see DK pussyfooting with the right wing, no matter the reason.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
23. I dont know about that
But I think Republican and Democrat are. We might do better redefining our lines. Corporatist party vs a Social good party?
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johnlucas Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
24. They have ALWAYS been meaningless
Edited on Sat Dec-05-09 04:35 AM by johnlucas
When I hear people parrot memes of "this is center-right country" or "we're hoping to swing the country center-left", I'm like what, we're trying to shift the tectonic plates or something??? What, we're moving from Nebraska to Missouri/Colorado???

I don't know what "left" "right" or "center" means and terms like "Democratic" and "Republican" have lost their meanings almost from the beginning. The terms "Progressive" and "Conservative" have some meaning but even those terms are limiting.

All of these political labels are faulty. What's the difference between "Liberal" and "Libertarian" really? To liberate is to free, right? Liberty is freedom, ain't it? Somebody took one basic word & whittled it down to one narrow focus. I always find it funny how one who identifies himself/herself as "conservative" believing in the country's principles of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Justice always mock and belittle the phrase "Lib". Ain't that anti-American?

There are issues & ideas on issues which for each person are complex but not necessarily static points of view. Everybody sees the world from their own selfish perspective, their own personal reality first. With enough "education" they form a "worldview" regardless if this worldview is practical reasonable or realistic. But since when have human beings ever been as a whole "reasonable"? We have to STRIVE to be rational & logical. It's not something that comes 2nd nature for us. So that explains how people have such contradictory ideas on how the world should be run.

People like Power. People like Control. People are Greedy.
That's reality. So it's no surprise everything about politics is based on these truisms...and why nothing of merit hardly ever gets done for the good of the whole society without threat of numbers from that society.

People clique up. This is a social species that forms groups to better access power & control through greedy means.
And those who recognize this reality play the unwitting ones like chess pawns creating rah-rah teams that fight against each other not realizing that it's in their own detriment. Tribalism never fails & Divide and Conquer will always be a Platinum strategy.

The problem is US. Humanity itself. If humanity can only create Stars, that is rare individuals that stand out from the rest of the pack, instead of having those Stars be the Common reality...then humanity will never really get anywhere. Chain's only strong as its weakest link.

We shouldn't have to wait on Ghandis or Martin Luther King Jrs. Everybody should be Ghandis and Martin Luther King Jrs. If not, then expect more of the same with the steepest uphill slopes for making the world truly anything different.

The fact that nations even exist is because humankind really can't get along with each other for long. We seem inborn for fighting amongst each other & bickering over trivial pursuits. We seem unable to see what matters vs. what doesn't matter & further unable to express how to get to this level of development.

How can you personally example how this world should operate? How can you personally inspire people to discard counter-productive worldviews & emulate your example? How much success can you personally have in this endeavor?
Be the change you wanna see...but that's only the 1st step.

Me personally I did away with identifying myself under these pointless labels a long time ago. The way you speak underlines the way you think. Language is NOT anywhere NEAR a perfect communication medium. Understanding language will get you to understand the message you're broadcasting. Identify those flaws and go beyond language's limitations.

Recognize that labels limit you. Even your names like mine below.
John Lucas
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
25. Kicked and recommended.
This is a huge, huge problem.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
26. Not if you manufacture shoes!
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. LOL....
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