I might not agree with him on the war, but Obama deserves respect for how he decided!

[KansasVoter]

I think Obama is dead wrong on this war. But the NYT article below shows that, unlike Bush, he worked his ass off making the decision. Bush went with his "gut" and Obama took a long time and got a lot of input from many people before making his decision. I have a hell of a lot of respect for his approach! It was not a decision he made easily!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WASHINGTON — On the afternoon he held the eighth meeting of his Afghanistan review, President Obama arrived in the White House Situation Room ruminating about war. He had come from Arlington National Cemetery, where he had wandered among the chalky white tombstones of those who had fallen in the rugged mountains of Central Asia.

American soldiers conducted a patrol in April in the Korengal Valley in Afghanistan, a remote area near Pakistan.
How much their sacrifice weighed on him that Veterans Day last month, he did not say. But his advisers say he was haunted by the human toll as he wrestled with what to do about the eight-year-old war. Just a month earlier, he had mentioned to them his visits to wounded soldiers at the Army hospital in Washington. “I don’t want to be going to Walter Reed for another eight years,” he said then.

The economic cost was troubling him as well after he received a private budget memo estimating that an expanded presence would cost $1 trillion over 10 years, roughly the same as his health care plan. Now as his top military adviser ran through a slide show of options, Mr. Obama expressed frustration. He held up a chart showing how reinforcements would flow into Afghanistan over 18 months and eventually begin to pull out, a bell curve that meant American forces would be there for years to come.

<SNIP>

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/world/asia/06reconstruct.html?_r=1&hp

[spoony]

1. Sorry, but if one reaches a wrong decision

it ultimately doesn't matter if a minute, an hour, or a month is spent reaching it.

[KansasVoter]

2. I disagree. I think he thinks he is right and has reasons for it. You might feel different.

[ClassWarrior]

6. So anyone who makes a wrong decision deserves no respect?

I guess that rules out pretty much everyone for you, huh?

NGU.

[spoony]

17. I didn't address respect, you can respect his wrongness all you want.

It's still wrong. I don't really give a shit what mitigating circumstances you want to attach to it.

[ClassWarrior]

22. Respect was the main premise of the thread.

If that's not what you wanted to address, why did you even post on it?

:eyes:

NGU.

[spoony]

25. You really like that smiley, I see. But it was not the subject of my post.

I even made it more clear for you in my reply. Do you still not get it? I don't really know how to make it more obvious for you.

[ClassWarrior]

37. Yes, the subject of your post was that the decision was wrong. I agree with you. The OP...

...agrees with you -- in his/her very first sentence. So what's the point in posting?

NGU.

[treestar]

8. Are you completely comfortable with such certainty?

No doubts at all that you can make a better decision?

[patrice]

3. Like it or not, the facts are that OTHER nations ARE affected by the behavior of the U.S.

Other powerful nations have physical and financial interests in the civilized resolution of issues surrounding terrorism. These are nations who can, and therefore have a responsibility to, do what they can about rogue nations (with or without the UN).

The time for an unconditional withdrawal from Afghanistan is long long long past.

The domestic political pressure for withdrawal says something like this to the rest of the world, "We are the U.S. and we are exceptional. We go where we decide to go. We do what we decide to do. We leave whenever we want to. Not only do you have no say in any of this, but we also expect you to keep on financing our status as the world's number one debtor nation." Debt built out of gambling with phony derivatives that affected no only Wall Street but also other nations, mind you.

I think there are other nations who, though they have no, or have chosen not to use, official means of response to our rogue nation status, have acted, perhaps even in concert, to tell us that we cannot invade and occupy another sovereign nation and kill or enable others to kill a million people, displace millions of refugees, and create millions of orphans (some of whom have sold themselves into child prostitution in order to survive), we are not allowed to do these things without consequences and one of those consequences is that we are not allowed to leave Afghanistan just because domestic politics demands it. I think the American People and incidentally domestic policy, such as HCR, are being held hostage, either under the threat of physical violence, under the auspices of "plausible deniability" for which there is plenty of historic precedent, or financial violence in world money-markets.

Time to pay the piper and the price is to deliver Pipelinestan. President Obama was hired to be the Project Manager on this one.

[polly7]

15. Excellent post, and thank you for the voice of sanity.

Other nations have been losing hundreds of soldiers as well during this horror, mostly at the start to enable more U.S. troops to be in Iraq. 9/11 wasn't an act of war, it was a crime. The world was willing to help in any way get those people, there were better, smarter, more honest ways than decimating a nation where 99% of the people just wanted to live, raise their children and go to bed at night not having to fear one of the guiltless drones, or whatever means is being used to kill them. It's a sham. If you want oil and pipelines, deal for them fairly. A lot less expensive in all ways. If you want to punish people for a horrible crime, be honest about that too and let the intelligence and co-operation of the willing world make it possible. Alienation and f* you seems to be the order of the day, we hear so much of what it's costing the U.S. ....... not so much the rest of the world.

Hoping my cousin makes it home safely this time. He's a medic, we've all sacrificed for this nightmare and will continue to until someone decides the profits of war mean less than the value of life. Sorry, but this is so disappointing. I thought change was in the works.

Edited for my pi**y spelling.

[patrice]

20. I think the HC Ins debate and now this make it pretty clear who controls the U.S.

Follow the money.

..................................

I have 3 nephews in it. Several retired military in my family. I'm a veteran (got out after Gulf I). I have been against this thing from the first rumors in 2001 and have been demonstrating publicly since 2002. It would be best had it never happened, but it DID happen, so we must deal with the problems it has caused constructively.

I suppose it's too much to hope for that there would be an international victims' fund created out of the oil profits.

[patrice]

P.S. That IS deliver Pipelinestan into the hands of Transnational Mercenaries who

will provide security in perpetuity and who will continue to have a revolving door into and out of our own MIC.

[BlueMTexpat]

46. Very well stated.

And no, I personally don't like the decision. But I do like the fact that we have a "Project Manager" who considers the potential repercussions of our actions in the larger sphere and longer-term timeframes.
And I do respect him for that.
:applause:

[JohnnyLib2]

4. Bushco cheapened the presidency and views of it.

He wasn't the first but was probably the worst. I sometimes wonder if we would recognize positive leadership, regardless of the issue.

:grr:

[Oregone]

5. The decision was actually politically expedient (or an attempting to be)

Make the pro-war camp happy (but not give them everything), while throwing a symbolic bone to the anti-war camp with an 18 month withdrawal promise.

In the end, Obama just might make both groups angry. Time will tell.

[Birthmark]

7. I agree with you on all points.

At least President Obama made a decision on the *facts* and his evaluation of those facts. This tells me that if his facts change or his evaluation is demonstrated to be wrong, that there is a reasonable chance that he'll change direction. It is a vast improvement even if a wrong (imo) conclusion is reached.

[tyne]

9. Everyone should

read all 6 pages of that article. It is quite fascinating and informative.

We elected the smartest person in the room....any room. I was especially impressed with the very last portion:

“I’m not asking you to change what you believe,” the president told his advisers. “But if you do not agree with me, say so now.” There was a pause and no one said anything.

“Tell me now,” he repeated.

Mr. Biden asked only if this constituted a presidential order. Mr. Gates and others signaled agreement.

“Fully support, sir,” Admiral Mullen said.

“Ditto,” General Petraeus said.

Mr. Obama then went to the Situation Room to call General McChrystal and Ambassador Eikenberry. The president made it clear that in the next assessment in December 2010 he would not contemplate more troops. “It will only be about the flexibility in how we draw down, not if we draw down,” he said.

Two days later, Mr. Obama flew to West Point to give his speech. After three months of agonizing, he seemed surprisingly serene. “He was,” said one adviser, “totally at peace.”

*********

A country cannot, imo, expect more from leadership than what we are getting from Obama. Again, we elected the smartest man in the room.

[ima_sinnic]

10. oh, a PR piece impressing us with the "thoughtfulness" of the decision

the "arduousness," the "troubling" aspects.

Written in the midst of overflowing e-mails protesting the bone-headed decision. But I guess it was okay, since it was done so "thoughtfully." So everybody simmer down, because a "lot of thought" was put into the decision, so it should be accepted.

This reminds me of those pieces on * commenting on his "resolve" and his "stubbornness" to see it through to the end, no matter how "controversial" or "unpopular" the "decision."

Two people making the same basic bone-headed "decision" by two different modes, one on the basis of "gut feeling," the other "after careful thought." Are we somehow surprised the end result is the same?

[tyne]

11. Actually....

the ending result is opposite...not the same.

Sheesh.

[ima_sinnic]

what do you mean? the end result is --- escalation of war

--one in Iraq, assuredly, the other in Afghanistan--the places change, but in the larger picture that is irrelevant, those are just locations within the bigger picture of oil and control of resources that ultimately do not belong to us. or did I misunderstand the latest "decision" about Afghanistan?

[spoony]

26. Just more mad double-speak.

You see, after he escalates the war he may at some point around 2011 begin to reverse it, therefore he's a peacemaker!

[ima_sinnic]

30. great! prove me wrong! you think I like blood & guts or something? (nt)

[spoony]

32. .

By mad double speak I meant "the ending result is opposite...not the same" that you replied to, not your post.

[ima_sinnic]

38. ..

in that case you must repost where it belongs! zing!
:fistbump:

[patrice]

12. not NECESSARILY the same. You are speculating about the future, not only by inference, but also

without ALL of the factors, therefor, your conclusion is NOT a logical necessity, only a possibility, which makes it more or less the same as any other "conclusion".

[ima_sinnic]

28. the decision is escalation of war, the same "result" by "instinct" or by "logic"

somehow they've got all the bases covered. See, from 2000-08 it was the "gut feelers" making it all good for endle$$ war. Now we have the "thinkers."

[ClassWarrior]

14. Point to where the OP said "it was okay, since it was done so 'thoughtfully.'"

Of course, you have to completely ignore the OP's first sentence to do that.

:eyes:

NGU.

[ima_sinnic]

23. It does not "say" that anywhere.

It is the intended effect of the piece, as far as I'm concerned. Granted, the writer and many others sincerely believe in the value of the process, and I admit I'm jaded and --well, check my username. I just got finished reading about some WH staff member complaining that her e-mail was overflowing with Code Pink protests against the war--and we know darn well CP isn't the only people e-mailing and communicating disagreement and disgust. Even Senators are.

It seems rather "timely" that we are now given the little "insider view" of the arduous decision-making process that, in the end, ended up right where the PTB wanted it to, the same way *'s always did.

[Skittles]

47. hey ima

are you a little troubled by the questions you're getting? I certainly am. You seem to be having to.....state the fucking obvious. :o

[spoony]

18. Indeed, but from the views expressed we're apparently

supposed to be deeply impressed by it. In fact should we not be MORE disappointed that Obama really THOUGHT this horrible decision out? At least Bush had the excuse he was a brainless tool. Aren't we to expect more of Obama?

[neshanic still]

13. So compared to musing over it with Gates at Starbucks?

I mean really. Of course he took time and thought it over. He took all available information, intelligence and imput from other nations and experts.

Is there a higher Zen experince he went through? Did he trek to the highest mountaintop in India and sit in a cave for days?

Still the wrong decision.

The war will not end. It just will not. In 2012 we will have troops there. In 2015 we will have troops there.

[ShortnFiery]

16. No, part of the delay was filled with "leaks" so as to allow the MSM to *Manufacture Consent.*

I have lost most of my respect for President Obama, SoS Clinton and AG Holder. I NEVER trusted SoD Gates or Generals Petraeus and McCrystal.

It was all "a waltz" to get the average American willing to GIFT another *TRILLION* of their tax dollars to the MIC. The MIC can't make all those billions if they don't have countries to unleash their "pretty weapons" upon. :puke:

[tyne]

19. Evidently

you didn't read the article.

[ShortnFiery]

29. Yes, I did read the article. I don't BELIEVE everything I read. eom

[Moochy]

48. It takes time

For Rahm to polish turds, and for the blogosphere to align properly.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

21. Its actually worse if he studied the situation

was careful in looking at all sides and then came up with the wrong decision.

[Clio the Leo]

24. It's not like we didn't have a chance to talk him out of it....

..... which makes the sudden spike in anti-deployment posts immediately surrounding last week's speech (as opposed to the last two months when he's been deliberating) all the more amusing.

I think the length of time he took gives credability to his decision .... but what do I know?

[ShortnFiery]

27. We, the unwashed masses, were not INVITED into the national debate. It was all "the professor's" ...

decision alone.

This whole PROCESS seems rife with an air of pre-orchestration, and yes, I feel USED. :thumbsdown:

[ima_sinnic]

35. wow--"pre-orchestration"--and that is so true

all of a sudden I thought of * with that absolutely transparent bullshit about, "we tried--we TRIED to negotiate . . . and now we have no other choice . . "--that weasel face that was so obvious you had to be the moronic son of a total moron not to see right through--god I feel sick when I think of that :puke:

... sorry, OT

I just hope I don't end up feeling that way about any other presidents, is all.

[ShortnFiery]

40. Yes, we have no power to change a fully corrupt right wing duopoly.

I've lost hope for national politics. I think LOCAL community endeavors is the most satisfying use of my extra time.

Yes, us both - "wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then."

It would be so much more comfortable to BELIEVE, but I can not. ;) :hi:

[Dragonfli]

31. In other words he didn't begin perpetual warfare but rather improved it with thoughtfulness

I do give points for a clever rationalization of more war, more troops, more "Crusader" mercenaries, but is it really required that I respect killing people (many of them our soldiers) in a pointless war just because someone worked their ass of rationalizing the stupidity of said war and calling in everyone he could who would help with the rationalization?

I have just found new respect for my nephew then who spent hours rationalizing the reasons it was better to miss school for a couple of days, "really, for all involved uncle Mike, when you think about it".

He is a brilliant kid but still did the wrong thing skipping school even tho he convinced himself it was the right thing to do. I gather he was able to convince his fawning girlfriend he was right too, but the kid still skipped school.

I am no fawning teenager and a rationalization of a wrong does not earn MY respect.

Sorry.

[avaistheone1]

45. I agree. I think there is a great deal of spinning of an astronomically

stupid decision by Obama going on this thread.

[Ernesto]

33. Obama does not have an easy job!!!

And in his campaign, HE did say he was going to fix Afghanistan!
However, my heart does go out to my young MARINE brothers.

[natrat]

34. most everything else in his administration is off a right wing script, this no different

[dionysus]

43. i wonder what it's like in the alternate universe in which you reside...

[polly7]

36. My comment has nothing to do with Obama.

Was hoping gettig Bush and his cabal out would mean better things for the ME and all the rest of us supplying cannon fodder for this decimation. I know he took time thinking it out. He made the wrong decision. My opinion. I'm sick of of it all.

[TwilightGardener]

39. I'm satisfied that he was questioning the assumptions on which the war is based.

I think he's given the decision its due, and the article rebuts the claims here on DU that he was rolled by generals and the DOD. The military received much more knee-jerk deference under Bush than they received thus far with Obama, and that is as it should be.

[ShortnFiery]

41. If you and others HONESTLY believe the narrative above, then yes, we deserve ...

the corporate duopoly that we are being ruled by.

You honestly believe that BUNK?

I give up at trying to help you ... you're lost. :(

bye :hi:

[Orsino]

42. I'm sure Bush press releases touted that president's thoughtfulness...

...and soul-searching.

While I suspect that President Obama's decision was more reality-based,and that he has more sympathy for the victims of war, I'm not about to be impressed with a puff piece.

[Powdered Toast Man]

44. YES!

"Dithering" my ass! It's called looking at the info you have and making a decision based on it; not just rushing to judgment.