On CNN, John Roberts just said another mosque is 2 blocks from proposed mosque site by Ground Zero

[zulchzulu]

If there was ever evidence that this whole concern troll issue about the proposed mosque two and a half blocks from Ground Zero, this is it.

There has been a mosque four blocks from Ground Zero that has been there since 1970, according to what Roberts reported.

Two blocks. Four blocks.

Why hasn't this been reported before? Masjid al-Farah and the Masjid Manhattan are within blocks of Ground Zero and this has not been an issue before.

The Masjid Manhattan has been there since Nixon was President and Newt Gingrich never piped up his fat cakehole about it before. None of the other Republican opportunist asshats have ever made a note of it. Never mind the bloviating quitter Sarah Palin, whose real dream is the End of the World for a book deal where a ghost writer could continue her "message".



Here's a recent article about the TWO MOSQUES in Lower Manhattan:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/nyregion/14mosque.html

[tabatha]

1. It has.

But people are too busy talking about the new one.

[zulchzulu]

3. I tried finding this info out a week ago

The only thing that would come up in Google was the Mosque Concern Troll story was about the proposed mosque.

This should pretty much skewer the argument if reported honestly.

[emilyg]

51. It's been reported many times.

[sandnsea]

2. Masjid Manhattan

I was just thinking about posting their link and picture from their site, but I was afraid it would be more attention than they wanted. Oh well, looks like they're in it now whether they want to be or not. I hope folks in Manhattan are ready to stand by them.

http://www.masjidmanhattan.com/Default.aspx

[elleng]

4. Unobtrusive; been there long time.

Why not 'reported?' Who cared?

Mosque does not necessarily mean MOSQUE:

[Diamonique]

5. I read somewhere that there are actually two mosques already in the vicinity.

They are both getting too small for their (I don't know the right Islamic word for this) congregations?

So this new one will be able to handle the Muslim community in the area.

[zulchzulu]

6. I amended the thread to show that fact

Suddenly the story comes out...

[Bodhi BloodWave]

37. Indeed, and if people paid close attention

It has been explained many times already that the Cordoba House isn't going to have a mosque, it will have an 'overflow hall'(i think the word was) for when the nearby mosque(s) are full.

Being from Norway and as such fairly removed from the situation I must admit I find this 'controversy' both fascinating and disturbing, almost like when watching a car collision in slow motion

[dkf]

7. It's not two blocks away. It was part of the attack. It was hit by a 9/11 plane

Same as the south tower and the north tower.

Seriously why so obtuse?

[zulchzulu]

9. Um...

What are you saying?

[amandabeech]

48. The building was hit by part of the landing gear from one of the planes.

It was the plane that approached the trade center from the south, and the debris blew north.

The landing gear went through the roof and down into the top two storeys of the building.

That's why the building was abandoned--there were serious structural problems.

[karynnj]

11. It IS two blocks away - look up a Manhattan map

There was debris over a wide area in lower Manhattan.

[zulchzulu]

12. I added a map screenshot

The mosque has been there since Nixon was President.

[dkf]

13. Sigh. You all don't understand why some 9/11 family members would be upset over this.

You just don't get it. Or you don't care. Like how Dr. Laura didn't get why her caller was offended by what she had to say.

[Mojorabbit]

14. I read there were around a hundred

Muslims who lost their life during 9/11. Their families are prob pretty upset too.

[LostinVA]

29. Closer to 300 is what I read

[zulchzulu]

15. So a mosque 4 blocks away is not an issue... how many feet are we talking about

If 9/11 family members are upset by the First Amendment, then they seriously need to take a civics class. The concern troll issue about this is nonsense.

After all, the term "zero" is based on an Arab mathematician, Mohammed bin Ahmad, who introduced the mathematical concept in 947 AD. Are these concern trolls worried about using the term "zero" as well?

As mentioned, there are other mosques in Lower Manhattan. Do they want to be un-American and knock those buildings down too?

[vaberella]

19. As a New Yorker, no, I don't get it. Please explain it to me.

Especially considering many Muslims died in 911.

[caledesi]

20. Some American-Muslim families (about 100) lost their loved ones too! nt

[vaberella]

23. It seems it's better to pretend they didn't die. n/t

[verges]

25. Oh I get it. I even sympathize (to a degree).

But do you get that Constitutional rights trump what people feel? Another case in point would be Prop 8 in CA. A Federal Judge ruled that it was Unconstitutional. However a bunch of bigots got their feelings upset because it meant that the Constitution over-ruled a popular vote! In the eyes of te Constitution, feelings don't , and shouldn't, count for squat. There's a reason Justice is depicted as blind-folded.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

35. Best response ever to this non-troversy n/t

[PatSeg]

38. Good response

I remember how upset many people were about Civil Rights in the early sixties. Public opinion and subjective feelings should not be allowed to override law.

[LostinVA]

30. And many 9/11 families have come out for it

[karynnj]

32. I do get why some 911 families would be upset

The main reason is that this has been ginned up into a political issue that has framed this as radical "Islamists" with unknown funding building near where their loved ones died. The fact is that when this was first reported early this year, there was no controversy.

What I do care about is that there ARE Muslims living in lower Manhattan - as there was before 911. There are two small - overcrowded - mosques within blocks of that area. They are taking an existing destroyed building - aka a blot on the landscape - and will convert it into a mosque/community center. Should the people of lower Manhattan have to live with partially destroyed buildings forever. It has been 9 years, some of it during pretty good economic times. This is a project that passed the Manhattan community board 29 to 1.

Think about this - it is 9 years later and the WTC site is still an ugly gash - a hole. There has been a huge amount of contention on what to build. As it is - as a hole - it is far more a "monument" to what the terrorists did than anything else. Rebuilding the towers will not happen - there is not enough demand for office space in rebuilt towers. Would you want to work in them if they were rebuilt - if you were the CEO of a company, would you rent space there? In retrospect, the federal government buying the site and compensating the company that owned it would have been a good idea. They could have then created a peaceful park or a low key memorial to those that died eliminating the "evidence" of what was done.

As to the surrounding buildings, many buildings suffered damage - that building more than many others. What would you have them do with that building - now simply an eyesore? The plans for it are to make it a community center for Muslims already living in the area. This is NOT something that a group of people from far away are creating to get people angry.

It is beyond presumptuous of you to compare me to Dr Laura because I disagree with you - and I completely reject it. There is NO equivalence to me saying anything I did to the offensive language she used. In fact, your comment deserves to be alerted on - but I chose to counter it instead.

The fact is that people in MY town died in the WTC in NYC, including the father of an eleven year old in my youngest daughter's class. My husband, whose office is in NJ works was in a building, where people saw the second plane crash into the second tower. My daughters were all in schools where many kids had parents who worked on Wall Street. The youngest one's school protected the kids from knowing and did not let anyone on a bus until they had reached a parent - or a surrogate designated by the parent that day (ie -not one listed as the emergency contact a few days before on the enrollment cards) who could meet them when they got off the bus. My middle daughter's private school, let the kids use their usually banned during the school day cell phones and encouraged them to share them with their classmates. Her English teacher took the class to the adjacent arboretum.

Blue Mass has a nice video that they link to showing a walk from the site to ground zero. The right wing "optics" to use their word, is completely wrong - and depends on people having no idea what that area is like. They speak of this mosque towering over the hole that used to be the site of the WTC. In fact, you will not be able to see one from the other. That area of NYC has HUGE buildings. So, there can be no picture like their optics, unless it is photoshopped.

http://www.bluemassgroup.com/diary/20549/reality-check-cordoba-house-is-not-at-ground-zero

They also have a very good thread on the history of how this became on issue.

http://www.bluemassgroup.com/diary/20541/how-the-nyc-mosque-nastiness-began

This timeline shows that this non-controversial project became toxic quickly as the RW echo chamber defined it - with all their tentacles validating each other that this was a cause for outrage. They played right into a large zenophobic vein in America. http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/08/16/ground_zero_mosque_origins/index.html

[BlueMTexpat]

43. Thank you!

:applause: :yourock:

[cottonseed]

40. You're taking the side of Dr. Laura in this argument.

[unblock]

17. you are aware that this post is about PREVIOUSLY EXISTING mosques near ground zero

on locations that, afaik, were NOT damaged on 9/11,

NOT the proposed community center on the site of a building that was damaged on 9/11.


is there a difference from your point of view? are you ok with the pre-existing mosques, or are they an affront to the 9/11 survivors?

[starroute]

24. Why do you always pop up to insist it's okay to be bigoted?

A couple of days ago, you were saying merely that the building was hit by falling debris from the WTC. But now you're insisting that it was hit by its very own hijacked airplane?

If you're going to pursue this "hallowed ground" line of argument, please at least get your story straight.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

26. No, part of the landing gear hit it.

That's nothing like what happened to the towers.

[LostinVA]

31. And, it was a Burlington Coat Factory

A RETAIL STORE, not some Sacred Christian Site.

[LostinVA]

28. It is two blocks away, it wasn't a target in the attack, and it wasn't hit by a plane

[Starbucks Anarchist]

41. She doesn't understand the laws of physics, apparently.

According to her logic, the plane magically crashed through the towers intact and hit the Burlington Coat Factory.

[Cali_Democrat]

42. LOL.

[Bozita]

8. "Why hasn't this been reported before?" That would ruin their BIG story.

Then they'd be obliged to do some real journalism.

[zulchzulu]

10. So maybe the poll numbers might be a wee bit different if the question was...

"Should there be a Muslim community center built a couple blocks from Ground Zero even though another Muslim community center has been blocks away since 1970?"

I think the numbers might be a tad different.

[Bozita]

16. The phrasing of questions and the use of synonyms are vital to obtaining the desired results.

Frank Luntz has turned his PhD into fortune with that.

[Lord Magus]

47. At the start that might've been true.

But by this point, the right-wing nutcases have convinced lots of people that there's something actually wrong with a "mosque" being built a few blocks away from Ground Zero. It's the Big Lie, say it often enough and loud enough and people will believe it. And once you've convinced them of a lie, it's unlikely that exposure to the truth will shift their opinions.

That's why Fox has been so successful as a GOP propaganda machine.

[Bozita]

22. Easier and cheaper than real journalism. Plus NO GOP/corporate backwash

I'm pretty old. I can remember the days when there were no GOP talking points, and reporters actually practiced journalism.

*sigh*

[rufus dog]

18. It was reported - By Jon Stewart

I have not heard it elsewhere.

Once again Comedy Central is a better source for news.

[Lord Magus]

46. Olbermann's mentioned it too.

I wouldn't be surprised if he learned about it by watching the Daily Show.

[ProSense]

21. Here's a better image

Via Daily Kos

[Jennicut]

27. OMG! The new one is so much closer then the older one!

By like two blocks. People are nuts.

[zulchzulu]

33. Good image n/t

[karynnj]

34. Really nice image - It also shows that it will not be seen from ground zero

Here's a link to less nice google satellite map that identifies the "neighbors".

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&saddr=51+Park+Pl,+New+York,+NY+10007,+USA@40.71373,-74.01024&daddr=World+Trade+Center,+New+York,+NY+10006,+USA@40.7127,-74.01165&dirflg=w&ie=UTF8&layer=c&utm_campaign=en&utm_medium=et&utm_source=en-et-na-us-gns-dd&utm_term=ddgadget

It also shows that Cordoba House is not the big building its name is but the building right below it on the map on the northern side of the street. That means it will be blocked by both of the bigger buildings in your map. (The one closer to ground zero is the NY State Department of Health ) I am assuming that it is across the street because it's number is 51 and Dakota Roadhouse is 43 Park Place.

For those claiming "hallowed ground", I would think that people at Dakota Roadhouse - which is its next door neighbor would be surprised at the designation. Here is a set of reviews on it. http://www.yelp.com/biz/dakota-roadhouse-new-york

Most said it was kind of a dive, with "good" fried food. Definitely not classy. One review (more descriptive and negative than others):

"Welcome to the den of sketchiness made especially for you right here in Tribeca. This place is not for the faint-hearted nor for the priss. Ok, I am exaggerating, but really, this is not the place you want to stop by for drinks for pleasure or business or to enjoy eye candy, unless your version of people watching involves funky porn on a large screen and a rough crowd."

Now, you can look at one block up from where the Cordoba House is planned. On Murray street, right in line with it you have the New York Dolls - and it is not exactly what you would want in the neighborhood of "hallowed ground". You can google to find it is a strip joint.

[AlinPA]

36. So should it be torn down? Let's ask Newt and Palin.

[PatSeg]

39. This is fabricated issue

meant to distract people and create division. It wouldn't be an issue if the media hadn't focused on it instead of real news stories.

[smalll]

44. This would still be a local, NY story -- if the President, in his wisdom, hadn't decided to --

comment on it, unbidden.

[karynnj]

45. Not true, the President commented AFTER the RW started their echo chamber on it

Here is a good timeline - http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/08/16/ground_zero_mosque_origins/index.html

The right was already making it an issue.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. what? this was a Big Fabricated Stink before Obama noted

that he defends first amendment rights alongside second amendment rights (the others, not so much.)

What you just said is Yet Another Bullshit Rightwing Argument. First they create AN ENORMOUS SHITSTORM OVER NOTHING and then when they get a reaction from the intended target of the shitstorm THEY BLAME THE VICTIM OF THE SHITSTORM FOR THE CONTROVERSY.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. 'sacred ground' extends exactly two blocks, no more, no less.

everyone knows that.