Okay... it was the mosque thing

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

I did a little eye-rolling over posts attributing any polling move to the mosque thing because it seemed too soon... could be one bad day in the mix... etc. But given the last four days of Gallup those posters were probably correct.

Funny how the most divisive issues are often the most one-sided no-brainers on the facts.

As the saying goes, "No good deed goes unpunished."

[RandomThoughts]

1. Only on the last quote

Note that the 'punishment' is free will choices of people that by definition of that comment are against good.



I think no good deed goes unrewarded, just the reward is not always for the person doing the deed, but for those in need.

[dkf]

2. Obama has chosen this as the hill he will die on.

And we are on this hill with him.

[Jennicut]

3. Yes, to lose support over religious freedom. We should be more ashamed of

many in our country who can't seem to handle the fact that extremism exists in all religions.

[dkf]

73. Yet we don't support when righties are pushing their " religious freedom."

Like I said if you all want this to be the thing that crashes the party then so be it.

[Hansel]

76. Do tell. nt

[Jennicut]

84. Fundies should be allowed to practice whatever kookiness they want. In politics they should stay out

Pretty simple when you think about it.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beacool]

6. Hear, hear!!!

I couldn't have said it better. I have tried to explain how most people feel over here, but the PC crowd thinks its about intolerance. How come sensitivity is only a one way street?

:(

[jenmito]

11. I suppose you agree with Newt Gingrich then?

WE shouldn't have a Muslim recreation center with a prayer space on the top floor for Muslims to pray-2 blocks from Ground Zero, until there's a church or synagogue built in Saudi Arabia?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Wow, no one could have predicted that.

:crazy:

[DevonRex]

41. I have to say that even I am surprised. I choked. "The PC crowd thinks it's about intolerance" she

said. I still cannot believe I just read that here. I cannot believe it. I seriously cannot believe it. Any of it. At all. I have never, ever heard a Democrat say 'the PC crowd' in my life. Not once. Ever. And fuck it all, it IS about intolerance. Any fool can see that. Anybody with a fucking brain can see that.

I cannot believe I read that on DU. I just cannot believe it.

[Beacool]

49. Oh please, stop with the drama.

:eyes:

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

54. Pot meet kettle. First it's "Oh he's such a politician." . Now that he does

something which is not politically popular. "Oh he's taking all those great Democrats down with him.". Tell you what call your BFF Hillary ask her what she thinks about this then get back to us with her/your opinion.

x( ;-) ;( and whatever else.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Have you been paying attention to Beacool's posts?

cause it doesn't surprise me in the least.

[ProSense]

16. There is serious racism/race baiting rearing its ugly head in this country. Rove

via Think Progress: Rove Equates Building Of A Mosque Near Ground Zero With A Neo-Nazi Meeting At A Jewish Hotel

[jenmito]

19. Yup. I expect it from the likes of Rove and Gingrich and Palin. But to see it coming

from supposed Dems. right here on DU is disgusting.

[Beacool]

50. There's a difference between having mixed feelings about the location of a site

and siding with the extreme right. A little sense of perspective and respect for the opinions of others would help.

;-)

[DevonRex]

56. You didn't have "mixed feelings" a minute ago. You said "hear hear!" to that vile post.

Try another excuse.

[jenmito]

57. There's nothing "mixed" about your feelings judging by your post.

You ARE siding with the extreme right. You talk as if the Muslim Americans aren't the same as you and those who had people in their families die the day of the 9/11 attackis. How about respecting THEM and THEIR rights? How are they any different from you?

[DevonRex]

45. There is serious racism right here.

[Beacool]

52. That's racism?????

Yes, I said the PC crowd. Those who see everything in black and white and cannot fathom the shades of gray that occur in life. People are still hurting over here and you can't blame them from having mixed feelings about the location of the cultural center. This has become a political issue because both parties are milking it to death. It's NOT about politics and no one is trying to deny anyone their rights.

[DevonRex]

55. You cheered that vile post on with "Hear hear!" So don't bullshit me now

with trying to say you just have "mixed feelings" about the mosque.

[Beacool]

58. Because I've been saying that I have mixed feelings about the location of the mosque

ever since we started arguing about it on this board. It's not the first time I say it.

:shrug:

[vaberella]

60. The post you shouted "Hear, Hear" for; wasn't of someone who had mixed feelings.

It was biased and bigoted. You stood up for it and now you're walking it back, badly.

[phleshdef]

65. Then you must have mixed feelings on whether Islam and middle easterner are defined by terrorism.

Because thats the only way anyone would actually have a problem with the existence of this mosque.

[vaberella]

59. When is PC equatable to following the law of the land?

Further more, this is a right. And as such, it's following the law---not people being PC.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

24. Seems to be the same argument that the bigoted crowd is making. nt

[DevonRex]

35. Did you actually just say "the PC crowd thinks it's about intolerance."???

Good God. How can you even THINK to call yourself a Democrat? I certainly cannot call you one from now on.

[Beacool]

53. My feelings are hurt.

Why so dramatic?

:D

[jesus_of_suburbia]

70. "How come sensitivity is only a one way street?"

unrelated to this particular topic, BUT

many on this board were all too happy (actually rejoicing) with the sexism during the primaries, so I'm not surprised they don't understand senstivity.

[Beacool]

86. HI, Jesus!!!

How are you?

They just don't get it.

Las night I had dinner with some friends. The mosque issue came up and we all started talking about "that day". My tiny town (a square mile) lost more people than any other city in NJ. We lost over 50 residents, mostly in their 20s and 30s.

We remembered events, we all knew at least one person who perished that day. Since I was at the WTC that morning I was asked to retell my story.

Well, the end result is that we all started crying. 9/11 happened only 9 years ago. Emotions are still too raw, it's too soon to "get over it". Even Howard Dean and Archbishop Dolan think that a compromise should be reached on the location of the cultural center.

Nice seeing you on the board.

:hug:

[frylock]

72. what polling method are you using?

[Arkana]

83. Because there's already a mosque near GZ and no one is shitting blood over it?

And the fact that there's a mosque in the Pentagon and no one is shitting blood over it?

What we think does not matter. The people who own the land have the right to build on it. That's the end of the argument. Period.

[ProSense]

10. "No, for Muslims. Color me unplussed. "

Is there something wrong with defending Muslims?

[Uzybone]

13. you know Muslims don't deserve the rights we take for granted

After all; ALL Muslims were behind 9/11.

[Jennicut]

20. They are not REAL Americans! Just like when my relatives came to Ellis Island

from Italy. Americans have a history of scapegoating people and of racism. Muslims and Hispanics today, Italians and Irish back then.

[backscatter712]

15. I can't believe DUers are spewing this bigoted shit.

This is the kind of crap I'd expect to see at Free Republic...

[Parker CA]

23. My jaw dropped. when I read that crap. Couldn't have said it any better than you just did. nt.

[ecstatic]

34. +1. Amazing nt

[LostinVA]

43. ...

Can you PM me what it said?

[vaberella]

61. It's more appalling that there are DUers who agree with the post. n/t

[jenmito]

17. "Why can't the Muslims decide to back down on this thing?"

Why should they? There were Muslims who died in the towers that day. There were Muslim first responders who saved people that day and died that day in the process. Muslims who want to build the center do NOT equal the terrorists who attacked us. They're as American as we are.

[backscatter712]

22. Damned straight!

Why we have so many dumbasses who conflate the people of Cordoba House with the 9/11 hijackers, or who conflate the hijackers with all Muslims, is beyond me.

The people who want to build Cordoba House didn't hijack or crash those airliners. Why are they being asked to pay the price for the crimes of others?

[jenmito]

30. Because they don't like Obama is my guess. Otherwise, they are just too ignorant to

understand that Muslim Americans are, indeed, Americans and should NOT be told, "You have the RIGHT to build it there, but you SHOULDN'T build it there," (implying that they ARE related to the terrorists who attacked us).

[TheKentuckian]

62. Not liking Obama is not an excuse or the cause for disdain for our basic principles

That thinking is grossly Obamacentric for it to occur to you that not liking Obama would drive such a stance.

Did you hate Bush enough to crap on religious freedom to score points or whatever?

This is a much bigger problem than Obama (who is supporting one of our foundation blocks, like a real American even a conservative a few years ago would go to the wall for), in my opinion.

Some are more equal than others and if you are decent folk then you'll mind your place isn't anything new. That shit goes back a long way and still runs deep.

Some aren't ignorant they just don't care about the facts. Fear and hate based on fear are simple not concerned with such details, you can't see such differences and quickly react by running away or lashing out in some way.

[jenmito]

67. I said it's either that they don't like Obama OR they're too ignorant to understand

the basic principles Obama is protecting. But certain posters here criticize everything Obama does/says/is for, and I really believe that if Hillary took the same position, they'd agree with her.

[TheKentuckian]

69. I gotta grant you a few on that charge, there always the 29%ers for every idol or standard bearer

I still think it is limited (at least in most circles) how far people will go just to be contrary.

On something this fundamental it takes a petty, low rent motherfucker to roll for spite.

The numbers are in the bigots, cowards, cowardly bigots, and bigoted cowards. Non-Republican spite mongers on this is a itsy bitsy fragment, approaching zero. There does to seem to be an amoral element growing in the party, perhaps certain loyalist but morally and ideologically flexible could really twist themselves up to do such soulless things.

Wow, its hard to grasp really but maybe you are right. Maybe devotion and emotional investment to a personality would allow people to despise and work against all they are suppose to stand for.

I can't get my head around it but you might be right.

Sorry if you felt badgered in any way there. Your perspective is insightful on this matter.

[jenmito]

75. Thanks for that...

Yes, I was referring to a small minority when I said what I said. The rest are as you described.

[Hansel]

77. Because too many Americans have not gotten up off of their knees since 911.

And Bush and company did everything in their power to keep them there. Obama missed a great opportunity to tell the American people it's time to stand tall and stop cowering during his inauguration speech. That was the time to pull out the FDR oldie but goody "there's nothing to fear but fear itself".

It's time for America to collective stand up and stop acting like cowards. This country needs a big mental tidy after 8 years of propaganda following one of the biggest security failures in American history. When the world doesn't come to an end after this community center is build that would be the best first step in that direction.

[anAustralianobserver]

85. I want to cheer this post! :)

[impik]

21. First they came for the Muslim

and you said nothing....


Go google for the rest of it.

[Hekate]

25. It is not a mosque. It is a community center. Does that change how you feel?

[smalll]

26. It's a community center with a Mosque inside. /nt

[Hekate]

31. It is a community center with a prayer room inside, rather like the YMCA would.

Doesn't make your local YMCA a branch of the Southern Baptist Church.

[smalll]

33. I don't think it's a "prayer room" as you would find in a hospital or airport --

it's a full-on Mosque.

[Hekate]

39. What makes it a "full-on mosque" and IF so, your problem with that would be what?

That Those People are all the same? That Those People dare to practice their own religion in the US? That Those People don't worship the same god as you? That Those People aren't -- can't be -- Americans because they aren't Christian?

But please answer my questions in order. I need to know what makes a building a "full-on mosque" first, and only after that do I want to know what emotional problem you have with Those People.

Links, please.

Hekate

[jenmito]

40. A "full-on Mosque"?

:rofl: Makes it sound almost as scary as a "Mega-Mosque" or "Monster-Mosque" which the extreme RWers use to mis-characterize the community center with the top floor reserved for prayer. It is NOT a "full-on Mosque" which would be a building exclusively used for Muslim prayer. :eyes:

[DevonRex]

48. What the fuck would you know about that? Specs please. Links please.

What? It's a building inside a building? Is there gonna be a minaret poking out the top? What?

[impik]

51. So?????????????????

[Hansel]

78. So what? nt

[Lilyeye]

27. You took a page right out of the right wing handbook. Good job!

[ecstatic]

37. small indeed. Take your bigoted crap to FR nt

[grantcart]

42. He is not defending Muslims, he is defending the Constitution

During FDR's administration similar fear mongering lead to the internment of Japanese Americans.


To review Obama doesn't actually have any legislative powers. That is another branch of the government. He didn't have the option of 'dieing' on the issue he can only use powers of persuasion, and he has to get a super-super majority in the Senate.

On this issue the Executive branch has direct responsibility for ensuring enforcing the Constitution.

Beyond that there are important national security ramifications. The more Muslims outside of the US see that the constitution is blind to religion the more success they will have in combating the terror of the jihadists.


Your cartoonish painting of Muslims shows your ignorance of the Muslim community. You are reacting to the media generated image of Muslims in the Middle East. By far most Muslims are Asians. There are more Muslims in China than there are Saudi Arabia. The three largest Muslim countries are Indonesia, Pakistan and Bengladesh.

While there are Muslims who use religion to oppress women, Christianity has an almost identical record until recently and there are still large segments in the US Christian community who believe that the bible instructs them to 'subjegate' their wife.

Finally while Christianity is by and large more progressive today (but not by a great deal) a few centuries ago during the dark ages when Pogroms and Inquisitions were the fashion Islam was a much more literate and progressive relition.

Again the President has shown Presidential leadership.

[damntexdem]

44. No, not for Muslims -- for religious freedom, for equality, for fairness.

And if you want to particularize it, then it's not for "Muslims," it's specifically for Sufis. For a people who have been attacked much more than have we by Muslim fundamentalists. For an Imam who has been an ally of two administrations in dealing with the Muslim world.

But I go back to my basic conclusion in another post on this thread: if we aren't willing to die on this hill, then we don't deserve to live.

[smalll]

47. You know, you have a good point there about the Sufis.

I just read about that yesterday in the Times. I still have issues with the symbolism of the thing, but that's a good point. (At the same time, I've read so many conflicting reports about the funding of this project and about the people around it, I still don't know exactly what to believe.) If there's any hope out there for a Reformation in Islam, it will come most likely through expansion in Sufism - I don't see much hope coming out of the Sunnis or the Shiites.

[Hansel]

80. When other religions build churches do we examine their funding sources?

Why exactly do you think it is that there are so many conflicting stories about their funding sources? Could it possibly be that some people have an agenda of making you afraid? Why do Muslims need to make you feel comfortable about their funding? The founder of this center is a well respected and well known man in New York. Do you think every political leader in New York and Washington, D.C. has been hoodwinked by this guy?

We don't typically research funding sources for churches. The only reason it is being done in this case is because there are people who want to convince you that every Muslim is a terrorist. That's how they win power and control the nation. They need fear to gain and maintain control.

Muslims do not equal terrorists. Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization using the Muslim religion as a manipulative recruiting tool. Just like extremist right wing groups in this country use Christianity.

Law abiding Muslims who have been approved to build a community center by knowledgeable political leaders in New York need not apologize to anyone for someone that people so wholly unrelated to them did. Anymore than any other American does.

[ProSense]

5. It's his

Waterloo?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

7. Huh?

:wtf:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

8. I cannot criticize it

Yes, it was probably bad politics. And yes, he probably should not have *chosen* to make it thing.

But I just cannot get worked up to criticize something that is so clearly right.

[dkf]

74. Then we accept the consequences same as everyone else.

Ce la vie.

[Hansel]

81. Enlighten us on the consequences. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. If Obama had not come out to defend freedom of religion...

there's little doubt you'd be attacking him over that too.

[damntexdem]

38. I won't say that it's a good day to die -- but it IS a good hill to die on.

In fact, if we're not willing to die on this hill, we don't deserve to live.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

66. Stupid Constitution hill and its stupid laws.

:eyes:

[Milo_Bloom]

79. This is a hill I will GLADLY die with Obama on.

It's very rare we get to die for doing the right thing in politics.

[Hansel]

82. You are on the hill with him?

Really? In what way Charlie?

[Cali_Democrat]

14. Americans aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

18. And here we go again with the bigoted Wonder Triplets. nt

[Uzybone]

28. Mosque. Ground Zero. Obama ...are their code words.

then they swoop in.

[Hekate]

32. Bingo

[Uzybone]

29. Mosque. Ground Zero. Obama ...are their code words.

then they swoop in.

[DevonRex]

36. +1

[4lbs]

46. I get the feeling Obama would have been criticized no matter what he did.

If he took a stance and supported the building of the community center (with small mosque), then he gets criticized like now, for taking a stand and being blamed by some as the reason the community center is moved.

If he took a stance and DIDN'T support the building of the community center, then he would be criticized for being weak and giving into the RW hate machine.

If he kept silent and this community center was stopped (like it was), then he would be criticized for not taking a stand.

He was in a no-win situation.

[vaberella]

64. Especially on DU.

You can see people in this thread criticizing him for this position and in other threads others blaming him because he didn't defend the right strong enough or "endorse" as they hoped. He is already criticized on both.

[becxx]

68. Obama's low ratings seem more result of economy than the mosque

Obama's ratings started taking a nose dive after the last jobs report came out. The folks I talk to and myself too, are very tired of Obama and the Democrats not handling the economic crisis properly.

I'm furious about the top down stimulus approach used by Obama and the Dems (old trickle-down economics) and I disapprove of him. His lousy performance on the public option wouldn't be so bad if he had taken care of the economy but he didn't. I can hardly bear to see him because I am so disappointed. I had high hopes for him as a more enlightened leader and it turns out he is really to the right. Also, Michelle Obama's Spain trip adds to his woes. The Obamas are beginning to seem elitist -- this is their problem, not the mosque issue.

[thewiseguy]

71. No, it is the economy

The economy is not getting any better.