Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

One Example of Why Some On “The Left” Turn Off Moderate Voters

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion: Presidency Donate to DU
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:42 PM
Original message
One Example of Why Some On “The Left” Turn Off Moderate Voters
In President Obama’s speech the other night on the ending of combat operations in Iraq, he did what all presidents do and was respectful of his predecessor George W. Bush. Here is what he said…

I’m mindful that the Iraq war has been a contentious issue at home. Here, too, it’s time to turn the page. This afternoon, I spoke to former President George W. Bush. It’s well known that he and I disagreed about the war from its outset. Yet no one can doubt President Bush’s support for our troops, or his love of country and commitment to our security. As I’ve said, there were patriots who supported this war, and patriots who opposed it. And all of us are united in appreciation for our servicemen and women, and our hopes for Iraqis’ future.

The greatness of our democracy is grounded in our ability to move beyond our differences, and to learn from our experience as we confront the many challenges ahead.


Now really, that is not exactly praise in my opinion. But if you watched Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow following the speech, you would think he lavished praise all up and down his ass. This is a little of Rachel’s reaction, from The Raw Story…

“And to to have in this speech, as combat operations are ending, to have, as you point out Keith, the president not only not addressing the circumstances in which he we went to war, but these kind words for President Bush, describing his commitment to our security, despite the recklessness with which President Bush discarded that national security in favor of this war of choice, which only diminished our security, and is responsible probably for the Afghanistan war still going on today, for the depths of people who have died in Afghanistan after the time, after which that war would have ended had we not gone to Iraq, not to mention all of the people who died in Iraq,” Maddow continued.


Woe Rachel, stop and take a deep breath. What would you have him do, give a campaign-like speech rehashing what we all know and have known for many years. President Obama’s final sentence, posted above, says exactly why he didn’t bring up the things Rachel wanted to hear, we need to move beyond that crap and look to the future. What good would that do today, to bring up all that stuff that has been very well reported and talked about for many years? The whole revenge mentality of some on the left really makes Democrats look petty.

If you look at what he actually said, he didn’t praise President Bush at all. In fact, he basically said he fucked up, but it’s not because he is unpatriotic, it’s because he is fucking stupid. I can read between the lines, but apparently Rachel and Keith only heard the words “security” and “patriot” and were unable to see that he was not addressing the effects of the stupid fucking decision but rather that Bush’s motivations weren’t the issue, it was his stupidity. It was a very classy way saying Bush fucked up.
I think he really believed that starting that war would help our security, whether it was Cheney who brainwashed him or someone else. Bush’s fault lies in being a moron, not in his motivations.

<.....>

http://extremeliberal.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/one-example-of-why-some-on-the-left-turn-off-moderate-voters/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree 100% Once the president takes the white house, she/he is to govern
Edited on Thu Sep-02-10 02:47 PM by bushisanidiot
over ALL americans. America must be governed from the middle and lean slightly toward whichever party the president is a member of.

It is completely clueless and shortsighted for democrats to be whining that President Obama isn't left enough. He is leading left of center, but not completely and totally left. He CAN'T. and SHOULDN'T!

We MUST win in 2012 to keep the power of SCOTUS nominations. The Roberts court is already leaning 5-4 conservative. For us to turn our backs on our president now would guarantee that the Roberts court will be at least 6-3 conservative by 2014. There's no way we can make up that deficit in less than 40 years or so. No way.

We need to GROW THE F*CK UP and respect the fact that the president MUST govern from center-left.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. We didn't win in 2008 without the help of centrists and Independents and moderates,
and we'll need them in 2010 and 2012 as well.

And you're right -- the SCOTUS is extremely important. We're on the edge of a conservative lock on the Court for decades.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. None of which were the ones canvassing for votes to GTVO
Let's see the DLC come knocking doors in my modest neighborhood.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I was. Do you HONESTLY think only far left Dems do any volunteering? Really? NT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
73. Define "far left Dem". I haven't seen anyone who supported Obama ................
espouse far left political views. No one is calling for an overthrow of the republic and instilling a communist regime. The party platform has faithfully been anti-war, universal health-care for all, equality for all, secular, and pro-union.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
95. I guess that was my clone walking in 100 degree heat in Las Vegas ...
Knocking on doors for the Drive for Change GOTV in Nevada. Pathetic!

I'm sick of the crap I read here against DEMOCRATS!

:puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
58. There are millions of volunteers from all the parts of the Dem party.
But I don't think there are too many Greens.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Then I am sure GOTV will be a rousing success as it was in 06 and 10
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Only if ALL the volunteers we had then get out now.
From the whole spectrum of the party -- a pretty tough stunt to pull off, but we do it sometimes. Unfortunately, it's easier when we have a common enemy, like GWB.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #64
96. Just Called Yesterday From My Local Precinct Captain... Said NO THANKS!!
Living in THIS county and having been to the meetings, sitting there like some dope because I am left leaning... well IGNORED is a word that comes to mind!

It's DLC for sure and I can't bring myself to get out and "do it again!" I worked so hard in some VERY HOT Florida sun for candidates and Obama in 2008, and I feel cheated in some respects! Maybe cheated isn't harsh enough, but I'll use it for now!!

Given my choice of Senatorial candidate here, many of my Democratic friends are either ABSOLUTELY voting for Crist (7 of them) and others are thinking hard about it. None of us really feel comfortable about Meek! I saw an ad this morning that Meek is running AGAINST Crist, and I'm going to have to "fact check" it because I think some of the statements he made about Crist aren't true. UNLESS, Crist has switched, it's been my understanding that he's against off-shore drilling!!

I "could" have missed something, but THIS ISSUE is a BIG one for me! Not the only one, but BIG!! He also said Crist was against abortion for women, and I had not heard that either. So, I DO NEED to research Crist MORE, but one thing that has surprised me about Crist is that he HAS been more moderate than I ever thought he would be. I campaigned against him as a Governor, but even the Democrat at that time wasn't one I supported WITH much HEART!! I still HAVE some negative issues with Crist, but Meek has shown me NOTHING.... so far!!

He can still get my vote, IF he gets his ass in gear, but I'm waiting!! Just can't wait too long!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Damn right!
Well said! TY!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
97. Sorry, I'm NOT Seeing "Left" In Much Of Anything From Obama! Sure He Is
to GOVERN for ALL the people, but to let comments stand idle when some in his own cabinet call "the base" retarded or let Gibbs talk down to us, really turned me off!

Saying "the base" can be ignored because we have nothing else may be true, but that has only made so many Democrats more likely to stay home!! You may not LIKE that fact, but I know many here in Florida who just didn't bother to vote in the Primary we just had!!

So, as far as just following "the leader" no matter what, some of us just aren't willing to do that!! I have thought that as AWFUL as it WOULD BE to have the Dems lose, MAYBE the WH & The Democratic Congress might have some second thoughts about "the base" who they have offended!!

I have NO enthusiasm to get out and work to elect people who IGNORE ME!!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Are you going to post all this guy's blog posts?
Cause that's what it looks like you are doing. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. What business is that of yours? Don't like them, don't read them.
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. What? And have one less thing to whine about? Never gonna happen! lol
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I've posted 2. Can you say T-W-O?
Oh, I forgot, if it's not hate propaganda from AmericaBlobg or FireDogLake it's not welcomed on DU......

And thank you for finding me so interesting to the point of feeling the need to follow me around noting everything I post! How sweet of you! :*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. They are probably one and the same
Self-promotion is not against the rules. Failure to disclose is just bad manners.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. And because it WAS a "very classy way of saying Bush fucked up," the neocons
were out in force the next day accusing Obama of not being "gracious."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. That's exactly right. K&R nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. So they vote for nutbags like Palin and Sharon Angle instead.
Why the fuck do WE always have to walk around on eggshells while the Right says whatever the fuck they want?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. The only one talking about the right dear, is you.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Horseshit.
"Yet no one can doubt President Bush’s support for our troops, or his love of country and commitment to our security."

I DOUBT. Bush NEVER supported the troops he sent to his unnecessary war, the entire purpose of the war was his love of oil money, not love of country, and he made our security situation worse because of his disregard for reality.

Bush used the US military to beat up Saddam and take his lunch money. FUCK HIM.

Obama was saying Bush fucked up in execution, not in intent, and we KNOW that is not true. He fucked up in BOTH intent and execution. He committed war crimes and deserves a nice cell at The Hague - but with Obama's protection he will never see it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. How long you gonna let the past control your future?
I hate Bush too, but I'm over him. Endless whining about the past and Bush isn't going to change a damn thing.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Oh please! Spare me the over the top drama!
If you choose to give into hate then that's your prerogative, but don't be so shocked that not everyone lets their life be guided by hate.

Did you know there are people whose children have been murdered in the worse way yet they have decided not to hate the person who killed their child? Some have even forgave the perpetrator of the crime. I point that out simply to show that it is possible to move on with your life if you choose to.

Now, your hatred of Bush has nothing to do with Bush whatsoever. It's all about you. You can't see that because you are blinded by hate.

If you need to continue to hate, go for it. Ain't no skin off my back, and certainly ain't no skin off Bush's back. Hate only destroys the one who hates, not the one is hated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
46. It's not hate - it's respect for the law.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
65. shall i fetch you the smelling salts? my, you're trying to start a hating contest.....
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
45. Wrong. Prosecutions will prevent the worlds children from being killed
needlessly in the future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
52. I'm reminded of the qoute from George Satayana
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'

or maybe it was

"ignorance is strength"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
71. Those who do not learn from the past
...are doomed to repeat it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
77. As long as I still believe in The Constitution and Rule of Law,
the Past WILL control my Future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. If you expected a frothing, podium-pounding rant, you were bound to be disappointed
And every US president since FDR deserves a fucking war crimes trial. Every single one of them, from harry "Nuke the bastards!" Truman to Barak "What's a little bombing in Pakistan?" Obama. All of them except Carter, I suppose; and even he needs an asskicking for his involvement in Afghanistan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. I can
"Yet no one can doubt President Bush’s support for our troops, or his love of country and commitment to our security."

He lied us into war. He lied about the war. He abondoned the troops when they came back sick and injured. NOTHING in that shows support for the troops, or love of country.

So, now, you were saying?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. sounds like lavish praise to me . . . .
"no one can doubt President Bush’s support for our troops, or his love of country and commitment to our security"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. What planet do you live on? (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. 'scuse me. . . . . I had the mistaken thought we could individually hold opinions
Please share . . . what should I have thought? What is the group-think?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
76. Sure, you can hold an opinion.
And apparently, that opinion needs in no way to be based to on real life events.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #76
79. well . . . bless you - it is comforting to know I am in the company of a
real "progressive" - someone who is comfortable around differing opinions
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
88. i guess you forgot that others have the right to call you wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. I have no problem with that . . .
Edited on Fri Sep-03-10 11:48 AM by DrDan
but when the comment takes the form "what planet do you live on", then I do have a problem with it.

No discussion - just an insult.

Shouldn't there be some respect here for differences of opinion? Isn't that a part of what being a "progressive" is all about?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. actually, being progressive is about moving the progressive agenda
It doesn't necessarily mean we must be gentle with fools.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. my opinion is exactly the same as Rachel Maddow's . . .
you callin' her a fool? Perhaps a bit of introspection is called for.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #94
100. actually, just you
unless you are RM as well. Then she is a fool too and i wasn't aware.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. kind of thought so . . . . just here to cause turmoil and insult anyone who disagrees
Edited on Fri Sep-03-10 06:39 PM by DrDan
juvenile
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. UNITY. It might sound like praise, but I think President Obama...
...is doing what he thinks he must to unify the country. That's one of my most important reasons for voting for him. We can't go on this divided and be successful at anything...the economy, foreign policy, education...anything.

It's sort of the opposite of what Palin and Beck do...say anything and everything to divide us. Not very helpful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Exactly right! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. I agree - and to have left out that comment would have gone further to unite us
he had to know it would agitate his support from the left
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. I think some here are confusing graciousness for praise.
Edited on Thu Sep-02-10 03:37 PM by AtomicKitten
I don't think Pres Obama praised GWBush. He certainly didn't praise him for starting the damn war. Pres Obama reiterated he didn't agree with the rationale for the (illegal, immoral) invasion of Iraq.

The left is just as guilty of parsing Pres Obama's words as is the right as demonstrated by both sides complaining. Unfortunately those complaining have lost sight of the point of his speech, that the war in Iraq is over.

Also I think that should be "whoa Rachel" and not "woe Rachel."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. Tunnel vision on the right & left and among idealists & cynics.
Edited on Thu Sep-02-10 04:37 PM by yowzayowzayowza
Quite a crossroads.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. The President once innauguerated is Commander-In-Chief.
He is Leader of the Armed Forces. If wars are going on,
he has to pick up and lead where the Predecessor left off.

Here is where I think we might miss the boat.

Foreign Policy is pretty much established. It is practically
impossible for a new President to walk into office and make
sweeping changes.

If we want any serious change you need a Democratic Movement
which is active year in and year out. Remember a President
is here only a short period of time. Some Congress People
are here year after year for long long periods of time.
A movement has clout if it is effective and can get policy
changes. A movement shows great numbers of Americans back
the President and this makes the Media take notice. A movement
has greater influence--they are not viewed as activists groups
each with a special interest. A movement reflects a strong
unified party.

We do not elect Kings. A president is as strong as his party.






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
22. exactly, because shrub was so gracious to clinton, and reagan was so gracious to carter.
:sarcasm:

i agree that the president should not overtly insult his predecessor. but that doesn't mean bowing down in any way.

the president should rise above this sort of thing largely by AVOIDING it.
then let the surrogates pummel the opposition.

the president should NOT undermine his surrogates in that effort.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Hey, i don't want Obama to insult Bush.
Just indict him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. like i said, let the surrogates do the work :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
23. Pope to Bush: Go into Iraq and You Go Without God
Pope John Paul II calls War a Defeat for Humanity: Neoconservative Iraq Just War Theories Rejected

by Mark and Louise Zwick


The most consistent and frequent promoter of peace and human rights for the last two decades has been Pope John Paul II.

From Iraqi War I to Iraqi War II, he has echoed the voice of Paul VI, crying out before the United Nations in 1965: War No More, War Never Again!

John Paul II stated before the 2003 war that this war would be a defeat for humanity which could not be morally or legally justified.

In the weeks and months before the U.S. attacked Iraq, not only the Holy Father, but also one Cardinal and Archbishop after another at the Vatican spoke out against a "preemptive" or "preventive" strike. They declared that the just war theory could not justify such a war. Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran said that such a "war of aggression" is a crime against peace. Archbishop Renato Martino, who used the same words in calling the possible military intervention a "crime against peace that cries out vengeance before God," also criticized the pressure that the most powerful nations exerted on the less powerful ones on the U.N. Security Council to support the war. The Pope spoke out almost every day against war and in support of diplomatic efforts for peace.

John Paul II sent his personal representative, Cardinal Pio Laghi, a friend of the Bush family, to remonstrate with the U.S. President before the war began. Pio Laghi said such a war would be illegal and unjust. The message was clear: God is not on your side if you invade Iraq.

After the United States began its attacks against Iraq, FOX News actually reported the immediate comments of the Holy Father, made in an address at the Vatican to members of an Italian religious television channel, Telespace: "When war, as in these days in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity, it is ever more urgent to proclaim, with a strong and decisive voice, that only peace is the road to follow to construct a more just and united society," John Paul said. "Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of man."

http://www.cjd.org/paper/jp2war.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. And this has to do with the subject at hand how? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. The invasion of Iraq was evil on moral grounds, and illegal according to international law
Those that enable evil as as bad as the ones that do evil.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Again, this has to do with the subject at hand how? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. And how does it square with -
"Yet no one can doubt President Bush’s support for our troops, or his love of country and commitment to our security."

Obama has NO business being 'gracious' to a man responsible for a million dead Iraqis.

You want him to start praising Pol Pot next? How about Idi Amin?

The SUBJECT, in case you've lost track, was commentators decrying Obama's glossing over Bush's illegal war - something we should just 'get over'.

How do you live with yourself?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrSteveB Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. Moderates and conservatives control the media. How can liberals be blamed for hypnotizing moderates?
I don't subscribe to that theory.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Hello
Welcome to DU! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
40. exactly.
Obama has his ways and if you examine his words there are lots of messages he sends. Unfortuantely the ones that have to get hit over the head with a 2x4 just don't get it and never will.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
41. +10000. Their hyperventilating was ridiculous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. OP is a broadbrush attack on those on the Left that see Bush as a war criminal
and not a man deserving of the Presidential Medal of Freedom or any other sort of kind words.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
70. really reaching there. really, really reaching.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #42
80. Wow, talk about a perfect example of closed mindedness
An OP posts a constructive post pointing out a short coming and you immediately determine it must be some sort of attack. That's not how you get a productive exchange of ideas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
44. It's not time to "turn the page", it is time to examine the evidence of war crimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
47. And one example of how the sensible "Centrists" turn off Liberal and Independent voters
who expected CHANGE and Accountability:


This OP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #48
99. And this sort of reply.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Those 'Sensible Centrists' were the ones responsible for the war in Iraq
They were the ones that berated the liberals and progressives in DU that opposed the appeasement of Bush and the immoral vote for war. They told us that the Iraq War Resolution was not a vote for war, as if the name "WAR" stood for peace.

War = Peace


President George W. Bush along with bipartisan leaders from the House and
Senate announced the Joint Resolution to authorize the use of the United States
Armed Forces against Iraq. "The statement of support from the Congress will show
to friend and enemy alike the resolve of the United States," President Bush said
during the announcement in the Rose Garden, Wednesday, October 2, 2002.
White House photo by Paul Morse.

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/10/images/20021002-7_d-iraq10022002-th-1-515h.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I was there.
Fortunately, there was opposition to the Iraq War from the fringe, Liberal, Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9061660
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. As you know, the IWR was an attempt to rein in the Bush administration
by putting limits on his ability to go to war -- at a time when he wanted a blank check AND the ability to fight "terrorism" worldwide -- including Iran and North Korea. The Dems who voted for it in October did so because they knew that if a compromise bi-partisan IWR wasn't approved then, that the Rethugs would take office in January and give Bush any kind of IWR that he wanted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
49. So what if we tortured and killed thousands over a deliberate lie?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
55. Move on, turn the page, fuck, haven't we learned our lesson by now?
We were told to move on from Nixon and Watergate, yet it was many of the same players, those unindicted co-conspirators who showed up six years later in the Reagan administration, driving us towards further destruction.

We were told to move on from Reagan and Iran-Contra, yet wasn't it many of those same people, the ones that North fell on his sword for, that continued to screw us under both the Bush I and Bush II regimes?

Names like Rumsfeld, Cheney, these are people who have done tremendous harm to this country, yet time and again they have been given a pass.

So now, when it is apparent that crimes were committed, we are again told to move on, turn the page, don't pursue justice.

Being classy looks nice and all, but the fact of the matter is that being classy simply means that these crooks and thieves are further emboldened to commit even more crimes in the future.

We have to, at some point, take the bull by the horns and bring these people, all of them, to justice. Otherwise they are going to continue to destroy our country and poison our world.

Justice is a messy business, but it has to be pursued at all costs for the good of this country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
56. K&R. Some here even claimed that Obama gave credit to Bush for "winning" the Iraq war...
And re: Rachel, I wrote on another thread:

Sorry, Rachel, but Obama gave Bush minimal "praise" and gave him NO credit for the things the Repubs. WANTED him to give credit for-namely, the surge. All Obama did was basically call Bush patriotic. BIG DEAL! He is NOT president of only those of us on the left-he's not going to make ANYONE 100% happy. But to over-blow and over-analyze the "praise" Obama gave Bush when he came right out of the box saying he DISAGREED with him in going to Iraq in the first place, and going on to talk about the financial trouble we're in BECAUSE it, is not fair of Rachel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. What the fuck does Rachael Maddow being gay have to do with it?
Seriously....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. you've just posted the weakest, most classless false accusation i have ever seen you post.
you must be proud.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #57
78. What a surprise. "Progressives" upset with the black guy. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
60. You're right...Rachel needs to be removed from the airwaves IMMEDIATELY!
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. yup, the OP totally said that!!11!!elevens!!!11
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
61. What turns off so called "moderates" and independents is wishy washy don't say what you mean
or do what you say.

Nice try, but FAIL.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
62. the "greatness of our democracy" is founded on the rule of law
something even a constitutional scholar should understand
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-02-10 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
72. I'm a straight-up liberal, and even I have issues with Rachel, Keith and Ed at times.
They are too whiny and do our side quite a disservice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
74. Agree with you, PT. It was a classy way of saying the moron screwed up
"If you look at what he actually said, he didn’t praise President Bush at all. In fact, he basically said he fucked up, but it’s not because he is unpatriotic, it’s because he is fucking stupid. I can read between the lines..."

Ever since Ford pardoned Nixon I have realized that "moving on" is what we do in this country. Congress can go all out and impeach a President, but somehow getting out of office constitutes a Get Out of Jail Free card. No matter how richly deserved, it would take a whopping amount of time, money, and energy to accomplish, would split the country, and would take attention away from everything else. Worse, prosecuting a former president would set a precedent.

It's a very flawed system, but it seems to be the one we have.

Hekate
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
75. if you dont like the left - vote republicon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
81. Who are these "moderate" voters? If you're not pissed off you're not paying attention..
..I simply don't understand how people can be "undecided" or "moderate" when you look at the rethuglican party...It really is very simple..if it fucks over the poor/working class/women/education/educators/the environment/gays/non-christians/immigrants/non-whites then they are for it..If it benefits any of the above in any way whatsoever they are against it.

Any questions?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
82. Rachel and Keith aren't running for office
it makes sense for politicans to worry about turning off moderate voters, but it doesn't make sense for Rachel and Keith, or me and you, to act like we're politicians.

I actually didn't mind Obama praising Bush, for pretty much the same reasons as you, but I'm not thinking about moderate voters, I'm just saying what I think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nancy Waterman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
83. Worth repeating
This is what I heard too:

If you look at what he actually said, he didn’t praise President Bush at all. In fact, he basically said he fucked up, but it’s not because he is unpatriotic, it’s because he is fucking stupid. I can read between the lines, but apparently Rachel and Keith only heard the words “security” and “patriot” and were unable to see that he was not addressing the effects of the stupid fucking decision but rather that Bush’s motivations weren’t the issue, it was his stupidity. It was a very classy way saying Bush fucked up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
84. "What good would that do"
Edited on Fri Sep-03-10 11:17 AM by Amonester
Bookmarking, for the next time a bunch of woRse waR cRiminals and toRtuReRs foR gReed will 'manage' to occupy de WH (in two, six, ten of fourteen years). Maybe you'll 'learn' then 'what good it would have done'.

Edit: Forgot to capitalize two Rs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
85. Obama said people who opposed the war were patriots.
Am I the only one who remembers what it was like to protest the war in 2002 and have your patriotism questioned?

This is another example of how our left pundits are failing us. They look for the sensational complaint to gripe about. Obama said something significant that the left should be echoing. Instead we go barking for the daily poutrage chew toy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. Pentagon revives Rumsfeld-era domestic spying unit
Words must be matched by deeds, else they are just empty words and shallow slogans.

Pentagon revives Rumsfeld-era domestic spying unit

By Daniel Tencer
Saturday, June 19th, 2010 -- 7:13 pm

The Pentagon's spy unit has quietly begun to rebuild a database for tracking potential terrorist threats that was shut down after it emerged that it had been collecting information on American anti-war activists.

The Defense Intelligence Agency filed notice this week that it plans to create a new section called Foreign Intelligence and Counterintelligence Operation Records, whose purpose will be to "document intelligence, counterintelligence, counterterrorism and counternarcotic operations relating to the protection of national security."

But while the unit's name refers to "foreign intelligence," civil liberties advocates and the Pentagon's own description of the program suggest that Americans will likely be included in the new database.

FICOR replaces a program called Talon, which the DIA created in 2002 under then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as part of the counterterrorism efforts following the 9/11 attacks. It was disbanded in 2007 after it emerged that Talon had retained information on anti-war protesters, including Quakers, even after it was determined they posed no threat to national security.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/0619/pentagon-revives-domestic-spying-unit/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. So I should ignore anything good Obama ever says or does
because a blogger speculates about what a government program MIGHT do? :crazy:

The idea that people who oppose a war are still patriots is a message that benefits the left. Therefore, it benefits the left to highlight and praise that message. That's what one would do if you're more concerned about the issue and less concerned about taking shots at Obama.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. +10000 Happy Pony time is over
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
86. Here's how I see it
We have Rachel and Keith and Michael Moore, and a few scattered talk radio hosts in certain blue cities. They have all of Fox News, saturated radio coverage coast-to-coast, Beck, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Savage, the editorial departments of most major newspapers, the AP, etc. etc. etc. It's like criticizing a guy with a peashooter for being too aggressive when there's another guy who has an arsenal of bombs standing next to him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
91. Some want him to be just like Bush.
I'm glad he's not.

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-03-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
98. This OP is a Glaring Example of How Some Obama Supporters Turn Off the Left n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion: Presidency Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC