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I'm not sure that I understand the nature of the Democratic Party anymore.

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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:21 PM
Original message
I'm not sure that I understand the nature of the Democratic Party anymore.
Edited on Tue Dec-08-09 12:15 AM by Writer
I can't tell if it's ideologically inclusive or if those on the left want to see the party - or the President for that matter - more closely mirror their beliefs. If that's the case, then what would happen to moderate and conservative Democrats? Should they become Republicans? Form their own party?

Or if liberal Democrats aren't able to affect the direction of the party and the President, will they split off and form their own party? Maybe a populist, liberal version of the Tea Party, but with signs that are spelled correctly and a belief system more seated in material reality?

When studying parties, people often forget the cross-cutting cleavages of party and ideology. That's why comparing party activities longitudinally, or the ridiculous notion that states can be classified into "blue" and "red" categories, is often problematic. Parties evolve based on historical and social developments.

That's why comparing Obama to FDR, JFK, or any previous president is a poorly conceived notion. Obama has his own history, and he sits in the Oval Office in order to face his own reality. It's not the 1930's depression, but it isn't the post-WW2 boom, either. In fact, it's nothing in between. It is, however, the first decade of the 21st Century, a decade bereft with its own brand of national crisis. Yes, Obama will take some cues from past figures, but frankly his decisions are a reflection of OUR era and OUR time.

Likewise, the current Democratic Party is a reflection of OUR era and OUR time. It will continue to evolve as our era changes. I believe that this time in our national experience is one during which ideology is less important than solving problems, so that's why Democrats of different ideological veins will sometimes be pleased, and sometimes not be pleased. But what I don't understand is, when a president isn't acting ideologically but pragmatically, why we're insisting that he bend in a particular direction. A staunch ideology is based on a totalistic view of the world, where one set of solutions fits all problems. Quite frankly, Obama isn't wired that way. If he doesn't think the solution fits, he'll use another that he thinks fits better. I don't think he cares, honestly, from what ideological playbook it comes.

So this is what I'm confused about. If Obama chooses an action, and it actually works, then why does it matter what ideological leaning it represents? He's a Democrat, as are we. If you disagree with what he's doing, I have to ask: Is it the party or the ideology that matters more to you? Because Obama honestly couldn't care less. He's simply a Democrat.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. liberal version of the Tea Party, but with signs that are spelled correctly
This line on it's own deserves a rec...

Interesting post. Thoughful. Good.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. +Infinity. I've been saying that for ages and got called an asshole for it. n/t
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think we all need to face the fact that it has been polluted by corporate money too.....
But perhaps by lining up strong liberals to run in primaries, bolstered by the unions and progressive organizations, we can infiltrate it and reclaim it from the shell that the DLC has made of it.
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. My concern isn't that his action doesn't fit my ideology.
My concern is that his action won't actually work.

Looking at the public option, I'm not just interested in government action. But I want any action that achieves our goals (which I assume are increased access, lower premiums for consumers, spending less on government entitlements).

My concern is that without a viable public option, we won't be able to effect those criteria to the degree that we could with the public option.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is brilliant ...
... an argument well presented, a question eloquently posed.

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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. "Signs that are spelled correctly?"
I wouldn't be so presumptive if I were you.





(making sure I've spelled everything right before I hit the "post" button....)
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Well, you seem to have spelled things correctly
but you used "presumptive" where I presume you meant "presumptuous."
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. DARN IT ALL!!!!
It's so HARD pontificating to Democrats!!! You gotta talk good!!!! :)
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
38. ...
Please excuse as this poster of merely average intelligence snickers in the background. :spray:
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rhiannon55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. I don't see any misspellings on the signs
:shrug:
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Here ya go...
Edited on Tue Dec-08-09 12:54 AM by Clio the Leo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan

(although they ARE a lovely color)
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rhiannon55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Oops
:blush: My eyes and brain were out of sync...
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. Its not 'organized.'
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. I used to call myself a liberal democrat for many years, but after
cruising DU and other "liberal" forums since Obama got elected...I'm now,just, a plain democrat.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
10. Because a political party represents a faction within a society. It is, by definition, a faction.
So long as a society is factional, a political party that represents everyone, represents no one. Or more specifically, it represents its most powerful backers. I don't fault Obama for going against the Democratic Party's ideology--because it, unfortunately, doesn't have an ideology and it doesn't seem to represent anyone anymore. I fault Obama for making bad decisions, and running a disingenuous campaign. If he made good decisions that angered Democrats and corresponded to his campaign slogans (yes, yes, I know all about his right-leaning speeches, but its his slogans and pronouncements for "the little guy" that made people "believe" in him) then I'd actually really like him. But good rhetoric, right wing policy and amiability don't get my vote--or won't next time.

I rec'd your post although I largely disagree with it. If something "works" it does happen to matter what the ideology is--because the ideology will tell you who it is working for (i.e. benefiting). Extending the war in Afghanistan doesn't benefit anyone (not the troops, not the Afghan people) it only benefits war financiers and (perhaps Obama himself.) The bank bailout, the Yoo decision, the censorship of torture photos, the mountaintop removal, the caving in on health insurance, the caving in on LGBT issues, the erection of an office of faith-based initiatives.... I'm opposed to all these decisions because I think they are bad decisions and I think they will ruin peoples lives, hurt people, and kill people with little benefit to anyone except a few profit-takers.

But I also TOTALLY agree that he can't be compared to any other president. Neither can this political sequence, or the preceding one (Bush Era). It can have correlations, but it is its own thing.
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rhiannon55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
11. He is open to ALL good ideas, regardless of where they come from.
He has all the right characteristics and attributes to do that job well. He is an excellent communicator and he treats his 'adversaries' with respect. He knows how to listen and compromise and make things happen. I'm glad he's more pragmatic than ideological. Important societal changes don't usually happen overnight. Every bit of progress, no matter how incremental, moves us closer to a better, more equitable world.

I especially like this part:

That's why comparing Obama to FDR, JFK, or any previous president is a poorly conceived notion. Obama has his own history, and he sits in the Oval Office in order to face his own reality. It's not the 1930's depression, but it isn't the post-WW2 boom, either. In fact, it's nothing in between. It is, however, the first decade of the 21st Century, a decade bereft with its own brand of national crisis. Yes, Obama will take some cues from past figures, but frankly his decisions are a reflection of OUR era and OUR time.

Excellent post. K&R
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Obama actually has shut out the left from his administration. He calls the left "the fringe".
I think one of his major weaknesses is that he doesn't truly include and listen to all sides.

A good example is how Obama shut single-payer out of the health care discussion, and branded the idea of single payer as radical.

I think the escalation in Afghanistan is a terrible decision and it will do Obama's presidency in. I think he would have made a better decision if he took into account what the American people want which is no escalation. Obama should be using our resources which are desperately needed here for our country.

I agree Obama did make a pragmatic decision. It is very pragmatic for the military industrial complex, not so good for the American people.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
36. maybe the fringe is the fringe
Edited on Tue Dec-08-09 11:46 AM by mkultra
regardless of ideology, the size of said group is what makes them fringe.
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. It is only the 'fringe' because the dlc moved the
Democratic party to the right. I haven't moved but now I'M the fringe?!?
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. you are the fringe if
Edited on Wed Dec-09-09 12:46 PM by mkultra
the ideals you hold put you amongst the minority in the democratic party. The BASE are those that bulk together and are loyal. This is why the republicans are so rabid. Their base is actually all the way to the right of their party. They must obey their base.

Many liberals make the mistake of believe that just because they have serious liberal street cred that they should get to dictate the party's planks.
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waterscalm Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
47. +1
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
12. Corporate
The actual 'Left' of the party is now considered fringe
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Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
14. "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face— forever. "
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
16. As always, there is a struggle in the party.
And there should be. That said, progressives have more influence in the party than in a very, very long time.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
18. We live in the era of corporations running our government and Obama seems
to be aiding and abetting this problem.

I think if FDR were alive he would be dealing with OUR era and OUR time much differently than Obama.

Obama is a corporatist and he places their interests in front of those of the people. When he makes a speech he sounds like something of a populist, but when he makes decisions he is clearly a corporatist. That really disappoints and angers me.

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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Who cares or knows what FDR would do were he alive?
Edited on Tue Dec-08-09 01:41 AM by stopbush
Ever stop to consider that FDR might not be the right person to deal with the problems of our times? Why not bring up JFK while you're at it? Let's all traipse off to Imaginary Ghost of Democrats Past Land and deal with today's problems by reciting yesteryear's fables. Yeah, that's the ticket.

And why in the fuck are you so stuck in the past? It takes no effort or commitment to fantasize about such things. There's absolutely nothing constructive in such daydreaming.

We happen to have a sitting D president that we all elected. He needs our support. What he doesn't need is us piling on him when he's already fending off the real corporatists and the real enemies of everything that is good, ie: the republicans, the Christian mafia and the corporate media. With friends like you, what need has Obama of enemies?

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of the fair-weathered Ds on this blog who piss and moan because Obama isn't following the typical, purist D script to get things done. Well, geez, Elmer, could that be because Obama realizes that script is a non-starter that has led to years and years in the political wilderness for Ds? Huh? D'ya think so?

DU is quickly becoming the home of the armchair quarterbacks, none of whom have a pubic hair's worth of the info that Obama is basing his decisions upon, but who nonetheless think that they know better than this intelligent, thoughtful and politically savvy man.

The feckless "support" that many Ds give this man disappoints and angers me more than you could ever imagine.



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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I do care what FDR would have done because he really worked for the people.
Obama talks like he is working for the people, but most of his policies have been in favor of the corporations and the military industrial complex. Although Obama said he would listen to all points of view his administration has consistently moved to distance itself from progressive leadership, refusing to even meet with the Progressive Caucus until recently.

If anyone is the fuck stuck in the past it is Obama. He governing as though he is George W. Bush. He has surrounded himself with lobbyists in his administration when he said he would not do so. Obama has kept the same justice department as George Bush. Now his is conducting an unpopular escalation using Bush rhetoric and the Al Qaeda fairy tales.

So you think giving Wall Street a blank check without reforms is the script to follow? lol Yes, the wars are being expanded and the global financial interests are still being served. Obama record on civil liberties todate is pathetic as well. So this is change? Change for the worse.

You, I predict, will be saying the same thing four years from now. "Oh, Obama had so much to do, he couldn't do it so now we have to give him another term." Or. "He couldn't alienate the right and (so-called) moderates in his first term, but he will come through for the progressives in his second." On the war crimes and civil liberties issues, alone, he has set his course and is headed in the same direction as George Bush. The time for progressives to speak out is now.

We have allowed our votes, energy, and donations to be purchased with meaningless sloganeering about Hope and Change.

All through the campaign people were saying that Obama is just another Chicago politician. I guess we are finding out how right they were. We are all disappointed and angry.




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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. Primaries are still being fought, in some ways
My take: Obama dared say (even in a debate with Hillary) that Reagan had good ideas, and the "Reagan must never be thought of as less evil than Hitler" crowd freaked out... and that freak out continues to this day, where ideologues who basically consider anything "tainted" by non-left ideas to be unacceptable.

Good conversation to have though. K&R.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. What were Reagan's good ideas?
Just curious. What were they?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #30
55. Negotiating nuclear reduction, for one.
You want a list?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Yes. A list would be nice.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Hm. Reagan legacy, through my eyes.
One word: START.

Do you need explanation?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. So that's it? You said that already, I thought your offer of a list was an offer to give more info
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Oh, you want me to be more granular? A few more, and details:
Reducing tensions by reducing arms.
Cutting down on warheads.
Cutting down on delivery systems.
Expanding food sharing.
Expanding resource sharing.
Expanding press contacts.
Opening up satellite imagery for cross-confirmation.
Giving co-ordinates for weapons inspection.
Allowing western "boot legging" without punishment.

Of course, to the hardest of hearts, Reagan was always evil, and not human.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. He did not say Reagan had "good ideas"
He said that Reagan transformed American politics, which is a true statement.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #33
56. It's been parsed and interpreted lots of ways. eom
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #33
58. That's how I recall it too.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
21. Excellent post. Funny, but I was thinking of posting similar thoughts.
I like how you bring up the fact that our Party is evolving. Political parties must evolve if they are to survive. That pisses off the purists, but they're old news by the time they figure out what's happening.

Funny how people clamor for change, vote for change and then complain that their elected agent of change won't toe a Party line that hasn't been a reality for 25 years.

Your post was very refreshing. As one of the early DUers and a lifelong D at 55, it's quite a counter to the anti-Obamism that is tearing DU apart these days. I half expect DU to end up being the source of the "Dump Obama in 2012" movement that seems to be festering out there among progressives.
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
24. Whether something actually works
is a matter of opinion. The escalation doesn't work for many people, regardless of the outcome.

And the choice isn't party or ideology, but party or principle.

Perhaps Obama couldn't care less, but he may find out the hard way that you can't backstab and crap on your base. He thinks he has a way with words that is overpowering of people's judgment and principles. But there again I think he's going to find out that empty or false rhetoric won't sway everyone. He may go to Sweden and say war is peace, and succeed in bullshitting the gullible sycophants, but not people of principle.
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R. P. McMurphy Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
25. k & r n/t
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
27. If the "pragmatic solution that fits" requires sacrificing the civil rights of citizens, I have a
real problem with that.So called pragmatism can be carried too far.We are quickly reaching the point where "pragmatism" can be equated with"bipartisanship" and "winning" even if nothing is won by the alleged pragmatism.Would it be pragmatic to reinforce Hyde and repeal roe? Should we do that if it makes political points? I had a poster here on DU tell me she supports repealing Roe and that that is the "viewpoint of the left". Seriously.Is it pragmatic to do nothing about Gay Rights because the RW may be offended? Is it pragmatic to be discussing eliminating the PO in order to get a few GOP votes? Is it pragmatic and a "better fit" to talk about dismantling public education and endorse the idea of charter schools and to disparage teachers and the teachers union?If those solutions "fit better" we might question why, and what do they accomplish?

I am a lifelong Democrat and I thought I knew what my party stood for.If the values of the Democratic party are to be replaced with Pragmatism, I will no longer be able to be a Democrat.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
28. Response:
I can't tell if it's ideologically inclusive or if those on the left want to see the party - or the President for that matter - more closely mirror their beliefs. If that's the case, then what would happen to moderate and conservative Democrats? Should they become Republicans? Form their own party?


Would that be any more or any less unfair or confusing than expecting those of us "on the left" to consistently, again and again, smother our own beliefs and ideals in favor of what the moderates and conservatives want? Moderate and conservative Dems aren't that ideologically different than neocons, if we're talking pure policy positions. That ideology has had quite a long time to prove itself, and has failed on a globally-destructive scale. Frankly, I think it's time to let the ignored and marginalized wing of the party take a turn at the helm for a while.

Or if liberal Democrats aren't able to affect the direction of the party and the President, will they split off and form their own party? Maybe a populist, liberal version of the Tea Party, but with signs that are spelled correctly and a belief system more seated in material reality?


You used prettier words, but I believe the slur you're subtly dancing around is "leftbaggers"--right? As for a belief system seated in "material reality," I posit that losing our idealistic foundation is exactly what has turned our party from a strong advocate of the working class into a milquetoast hand-wringing group of people who are too frightened of polls to actually get real progress achieved. Here's some material reality for you: right now there are good working people dying for lack of health care. Right now a homeless person is being dumped in an alley by hospital workers who don't want to deal with someone who can't pay. Right now there are mothers who are staring at the ceiling, unable to sleep because it's the 8th of December and their rent is now three days overdue, with no way to pay it. Right now a soldier is being shot at in a war for which we cannot even properly provide a definition of "winning." The moderate and conservative wings of the party are fine with letting all of this suffering continue while we bicker over just how much we can slash a public health care plan without instigating a revolt on the left. I guess my "reality" priorities are different from yours.

When studying parties, people often forget the cross-cutting cleavages of party and ideology. That's why comparing party activities longitudinally, or the ridiculous notion that states can be classified into "blue" and "red" categories, is often problematic. Parties evolve based on historical and social developments.


They also evolve on the basis of greedy manipulation behind the scenes by the wealthy and the powerful. It is precisely that sort of "evolution" that some of us would like to roll back, in the interests of the average people for whom this nation was supposed to have been created. And if we can't completely fix the damage, then we can at least try to neutralize and prevent it from getting any worse--if we only had help and the kind of strong, courageous leadership we so desperately need.

That's why comparing Obama to FDR, JFK, or any previous president is a poorly conceived notion. Obama has his own history, and he sits in the Oval Office in order to face his own reality. It's not the 1930's depression, but it isn't the post-WW2 boom, either. In fact, it's nothing in between. It is, however, the first decade of the 21st Century, a decade bereft with its own brand of national crisis. Yes, Obama will take some cues from past figures, but frankly his decisions are a reflection of OUR era and OUR time.


I agree that our time is different. However, I believe that in many ways, we are actually in far MORE danger now that we have ever been before. We don't need FDR--we need someone even MORE courageous and determined than FDR, because we are fighting the same class war that was fought during his time, except this time the fascist right has usurped religious authority to a dangerous degree, and has the internet and the complacent media to help rally their supporters and make money. Death to liberty is coming to us on a pale horse named Fundamentalism, cloaked in the richest hood that Free Republic can provide. It would be incredibly foolish to dismiss or attempt to minimize the scale of the threat we are all under. Moderate and conservative Democrats are simply not capable of effectively fighting the right-wing ideologues. Too many of them are uncomfortable with conflict, especially when they at least partly agree with some of the positions of the right-wing, which is not surprising considering that what we call "moderate" today would have been considered solidly right-wing just a few short decades ago.

Likewise, the current Democratic Party is a reflection of OUR era and OUR time. It will continue to evolve as our era changes. I believe that this time in our national experience is one during which ideology is less important than solving problems, so that's why Democrats of different ideological veins will sometimes be pleased, and sometimes not be pleased. But what I don't understand is, when a president isn't acting ideologically but pragmatically, why we're insisting that he bend in a particular direction. A staunch ideology is based on a totalistic view of the world, where one set of solutions fits all problems. Quite frankly, Obama isn't wired that way. If he doesn't think the solution fits, he'll use another that he thinks fits better. I don't think he cares, honestly, from what ideological playbook it comes.


Your error here is assuming that you are speaking to cartoon people who all fit your pat little definition of "staunch ideologue." Real people aren't cartoons. We don't have checklists of beliefs that we share like computerized androids. There are left-wing positions that many of us disagree with--some vehemently. Your lecture only works if we're all a bunch of cookie-cutter Leftist revolutionaries, which we are not. However, the one thing that modern American progressives do have in common is a firm belief that we must be TRUE "fierce advocates" of policies that increase overall economic and social egalitarianism, and oppose (and even turn back) the frontal assaults upon liberty and social justice that the right-wing has inflicted upon us in their quest for money and power. The base struggle here is the same one that the whole world has been fighting for a very long time--the wealthy and powerful against everyone else. It's not a conflict that the American left and right have newly discovered--it's an old, old war of which this is just the latest ideological skirmish. I don't think that it's too much to ask of our Hope and Change President to stand with us and fight for the working class and the minorities who've been trampled under the boot of the right-wing for entirely too long. When you centralize the focus of your campaign on Hope and Change, it's natural for people to expect more dramatic results than the familiar old compromises and concessions that keep the wealthy firmly in power and the working people patronized, demonized, and defeated.

So this is what I'm confused about. If Obama chooses an action, and it actually works, then why does it matter what ideological leaning it represents? He's a Democrat, as are we. If you disagree with what he's doing, I have to ask: Is it the party or the ideology that matters more to you? Because Obama honestly couldn't care less. He's simply a Democrat.


If you're taking the position that there are right-wing ideological actions that are as effective at achieving the goals of egalitarianism and empowerment of the working class as the left-wing ideological actions are, then with all due respect, you're full of it. Have you forgotten what right-wing means? What it represents? These are people who WANT the wealthy to rule the nation. They admire Ayn Rand's Objectivist defenses of selfishness and greed as virtues. They consider the poor and the disempowered minorities to be little more than scum, and see no value in any life that cannot wholly care for itself (save for fetuses, of course.) Perhaps the conflict is because the moderate and conservative Democrats simply do not share our goals. They don't really care about poverty relief, equality, social justice, and peace as serious goals; they are far more interested in keeping everything nice and stable, and turning discreetly away from the evidence of the injustices they're perpetuating in the name of selfish comfort and stability. When politicians prefer the comfort and stability of the compromising status quo over the uncomfortable-but-necessary struggle of justice and compassion, then progressives are going to have a really hard time feeling much sympathy for or solidarity with them. Perhaps you feel that these are worthy actions to defend, but I do not. I feel nothing but contempt for those who would stand up for the status quo while real people are needlessly suffering and dying.

You seem to forget that quite a few of us are here because we are more pragmatic leftists than our more-revolutionary brethren. We're not here to support the Democratic party as it is; we're here to change it from within. We're here because we believe that changing the system from within is the most realistic way of accomplishing our ultimate goals, and because (perhaps foolishly) we believed it when we were told that voting for the lesser of two evils was the best idea--for now. However, if those of you who consider yourselves moderate and conservative Democrats would rather that we progressives all go away and vote Green next time, then by all means, say so and be done with it. If not, then you need to realize that you CANNOT continue to expect our support if you are not willing to give equal value and attention to the issues that we care about. Such an expectation would be neither fair nor rooted in the "material reality" you seem so fond of tossing at us when it suits your purposes.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. I don't know why I have to keep explaining this to people
Edited on Tue Dec-08-09 05:56 AM by AllentownJake
The democratic party is a coalition. The platform the President ran on (not the party platform, his election year rhetoric) could not get him elected in a state wide race in North Carolina or in Vermont.

If you understand the regional differences of the democratic party you'd be in better shape. A pro-life and pro-labor democrat can win statewide office in PA. Same democrat would have to be pro-choice in NY and would have to ditch the pro-labor stance in Arkansas.

BTW the pragmatic argument is bullshit. The President isn't acting pragmatically, he has chosen policy positions based on what he believes will give him the best chance to get re-elected in 2012. He totally cares what ideological play book a solution comes from. He's a politician and politics is a consideration in all his decision making.

He isn't going to do anything that he isn't forced to do. He's a nicer politician than some of the other guys. At the end of the day, he will listen and enact policies that he feels give him a better chance of re-election. Since financial contributions play into the game, a lot of those policies aren't exactly for the people.

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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. can you prove this?
BTW the pragmatic argument is bullshit. The President isn't acting pragmatically, he has chosen policy positions based on what he believes will give him the best chance to get re-elected in 2012. He totally cares what ideological play book a solution comes from. He's a politician and politics is a consideration in all his decision making.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. You think he raised 750 million dollars without making some promises
and that he knows he has to raise a billion in 2012 because his decision during the campaign to forgo public financing ensures that his opponent will in 2012. Do you think the Republicans are going to nominate another candidate who will go into battle with his hands tied behind their back.

How about this, people are suddenly making a lot of noise about the deficit. Look at what he is turning to in 2010. Same thing with the jobs issue. Noise is being made so he's looking for a way to address it.

Trusting a politician in the current campaign finance environment is ridiculous. I don't really care if this one has a nice personal story and can make inspiring speeches.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
34. "He's simply a Democrat" should read "He's simply a corporate Democrat." nt
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Bullet1987 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
35. Me being a liberal...I just want my views ACKNOWLEDGED
We're not even given the time of day. Single-payer (even if it is unrealistic to think it would pass) wasn't even openly discussed. It's not about Obama listening to us and only us...it's about him taking us seriously instead of doing the typical thing that Nate Silver does (as well as most moderates) and simply waving us off as the "Far-left."
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
37. Ideology is ill-defined here. It's a means, not an end
Edited on Tue Dec-08-09 01:15 PM by Prism
I think that is a fundamental error in the structure of your question. Ideology is merely political shorthand we all use for the sake of linguistic expedience. Adherence to an ideology for the ideology's sake is a dangerous area that some radicals do traverse when they get a touch lost in their arguments. However, make no mistake, the ideology exists because people genuinely believe it is what will practically work to the greatest benefit of the most people.

Select any position on an issue that you perceive as purely ideological. You will find practical policy underlying it 99% of the time. The trick is, the policy arguments are so old, so worn from use, so articulated to death, that people lapse into ideological rhetoric as a form of shorthand for the sake of brevity and convenience.

Take anti-war ideology. It isn't merely a philosophical framework. There is an entire history behind anti-war ideology rooted in the cost and benefits of imperial American adventures. It isn't merely "War is bad, rawr!" We have concrete, easily referenced examples of wars, their costs, and what America gained or lost from waging past campaigns. The wisdom distilled from the collective study of those wars can produce a somewhat simplistic, almost sloganeering position, but that simplicity doesn't negate the complex calculations buttressing the ideological position. We can look at the Afghanistan campaign and see in it a studied ignorance of history. We know various powers attempted to bring order to that part of the world and failed. We know what happens when a great power attempts to impose uniformity on a tribalistic region that historically resists it. We can point to the trillions so far spent in war, glance at the domestic conditions of our country, and come to a logical conclusion that continuation and escalation are not just folly, but avoidable folly that we should know far better than to repeat.

These are sound arguments and considerations, and yet, for whatever politically interested reason, these considerations are almost off-handedly dismissed into categorizations like the Pacifist Left. Anti-war hippies. Radicals. Leftbaggers. Even though the arguments are nothing of the sort.

In short, references of ideology become a lazy method of political dismissal.

So it goes with President Obama's ideological choices. The reason there is resistance to ideas that may originate in another ideology isn't merely because of those origins, but because the underlying ideas in it have been proven wrong. There has been ample time, death, and cost to analyze the great failures in neo-conservative ideology. So when the President adopts them, we're not just protesting the ideological origins, we're protesting a method and policy that has so far only brought failure in American foreign policy. The definition of insanity and all that. It isn't merely "Ooh, conservatives bad!" It's "Neoconservatives ran the government, military, and foreign policy in this manner, and look at what has happened. President Obama has no business continuing these policies."

People often turn ideology into a dirty word. It isn't. It's a considered policy position that has been argued and picked apart for decades. And some of us have decided it's the policy that we feel will work best for the American people.

Edit: It's a good discussion though. K&R.
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I just wanted to let you know how much I've enjoyed your posts
The past few months yours and AllentownJake's have been the ones I look forward to reading here.
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Hey, there. Yes, I'm very consciously using ideology in its short-hand form.
Edited on Tue Dec-08-09 01:59 PM by Writer
Actually what I mean to say is STAUNCH POLITICAL ideologies. Unwavering. Sociologically-speaking, I do not believe anyone can divorce him or herself from (general) ideology. Pragmatism is also an ideology.

Idealism, on the other hand, is the better term, I think, because it seems that some are operating with a totalistic view that I think is idealistic. However, tell an average Joe or Jane politico that you think they're being idealistic, then they'll flip their lid.

Hence the shorthand.
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
39. There will always be extremists... just need to keep them happy enough to vote..
without letting them muck up everything.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
42. Y'all have been pushing that liberal teabagger line, and it will backfire on you.
What if we do start holding our own protests of President Obama?

You can call us teabaggers all you want, we'll call Obama a one-term president. I hope it doesn't come to that, but that's what you get when you take progressives for granted. What you're doing is actually worse, you're attacking us!
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #42
63. It's the "contrarian party".
They always have an argument, a reason to vent their rage at... whatever.

By complaining, they find meaning in their existence.

Fundamentally, they lack morals, as they are guided by whatever provides reason to complain, and get attention.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
43. If you don't understand the nature of the Democratic Party I suggest you follow the money!
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. My view of the world doesn't involve mechanistic, "lazy" Marxism, thank you.
Economism is a totalistic, poorly rendered belief that the activities of the base immediately translate into our beliefs, ideas, and culture.

And the world doesn't work that way.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Perhaps your view of the world doesn't enable you to understand the nature of the Democratic Party
Edited on Tue Dec-08-09 06:13 PM by Better Believe It
It's very confusing to you, isn't it?

Well, you might make some progress by discarding your view that we live in some kind of classless capitalist economy and society in which we are all equal human beings and money plays little, if any, role in political and econmic decisions made in Congress and the White House.

Now that really is a utopian capitalist fantasy!
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
45. Here's my short answer
I wrote this in response to someone else on a different thread.

The Republicans are the conservative party. The counterbalance to that is supposed to be a liberal party.

That does NOT mean there should be no place for moderates or a "big tent" in either party.

But the basic cast for a two party system is one party represents the conservative half of the spectrum and the other represents the liberal half. Ultimately that creates a healthy balance.

BUT THAT DOES NOT WORK IF you have one party with a clear ideology, and the other has no fundamental principles.

Continuing to pander to "democtrats" who do not share a basic liberal ideology is a recipie for disaster -- both for society and for the Democratic Party.

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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
46. Here is what I reject about the frame in the OP
Where is the opposition coming from within the Democratic party to HCR? The liberals?

No, the opposition comes from the "moderates", and what do the "moderates" object to?

All of them...EVERY ONE OF THEM say they oppose the public option because it is "run by the government". Not that it won't work, but simply because the government is involved. That is an ideological argument that could have come straight from Ronald Reagan.

Meanwhile the liberals have given up just about everything they wanted. They have compromised, been arrested, had to face off against teabaggers at angry townhalls, etc. And what they want is essentially a compromise. A compromise forced upon them from the beginning.

But the MODERATES are not called ideologues even though their argument is pure 100% ideological.

The liberals, who have done nothing but compromise, are being called the "purists" in this construct. Heck, from what I have seen, they just want a place, ANY PLACE at the table.

So the frame of the OP only looks at the labels and not the substance.

You know, early on when Obama was making all of these DLC appointments, he was asked where the liberal is in his administration. Remember what he said? He said "I am the progressive voice of this administration." Was he lying, or does he think that his weird make everyone happy/placate the right is what being a "leftie" or "liberal" means? In that case, I can see why he thinks that genuine progressives are fringe....but that is only because he is drawing his political viewing glass from the Beltway.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. bingo --- you hit the nail rioght on the head
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #46
59. Yeah it's total bullshit. The "moderates" very much have an ideological bent. They are conservative
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #46
65. **excellent analysis** spot on!
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
48. Wow.
Liberals don't have to listen to republicans and conservatives attack and belittle them any more. Their own party does that. I guess you think you don't need their vote any more.
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LovinLife Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
49. Most of them are republicans that couldn't win a primary. ie Arlen Spec NT
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
52. "centrists" should have just stayed republican
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
53. Well this is verbose.
And interesting that the title is 'I don't understand' while the premise is in fact that you understand everything, and those terrible liberals don't. The juxtaposition of title and text coveys more than you imagine.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
64. Why? Because our country is more corrupt than it has EVER been
Edited on Wed Dec-09-09 06:10 AM by Go2Peace
And it is in danger of falling to fascism in the not too distant future. That is why. This isn't about Obama, or "inclusive" or whatever.

Let's all just continue and just let corruption go on and not really change the status quo, and where do we end up.

I think the fundamental divide is between those who realize how close to fucked we are and those who just think we need to turn the rudder just a little bit to the "left".

It is great to get health care and make enough to afford a roof over our heads... but what good is that if we are all indentured servants at the will of our rich overlords, and they just turn around and gut what little we got when they have another opportunity?
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