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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 01:59 AM
Original message
"Death Panels" and "Catfood Commissions"
Surely, we're above this kind of rhetorical hyperbole?

Maybe?
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. ya forgot HEADLESS BODIES IN THE DESERT
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Honestly, I thought that quote was about videos.
Edited on Sun Sep-12-10 02:30 AM by RandomThoughts
LOL, really.

I found lots of heads in so many movie and video clips.



Singing in the Rain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmCpOKtN8ME



Hey, look, the last to letters are Me! And another post had a Me in it. On a side note, getting what is due, is not selfish if a person lives a mostly unselfish life.


And I am still due beer and travel money. And they will pay. It makes me unhappy when things are out of balance. So someone should correct that issue.

hows that :)
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. it was the Az Gov Jan Brewer trying to scare her peeps w headless body stories
she got caught lying...LOL
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. I thought that was headless cats for dessert.
My phone line must be down:
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Sadly, we aren't. I just saw a post riddled with rightwing talking points,
and assumed the poster was on the wrong site. Thankfully, it was deleted. <sigh>
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, at least we know when to back away
Sometimes.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. We might be above it, but others thrive on the fear factor.

And that's what those names are for, to promote fear among the uninformed. When people complain about not getting the message out, this is a major part of the reason. If you have to constantly go back and tell them that they're being lied to it takes away from the real message of working for the betterment of all.

Wingers aren't stupid, they know what they are doing with those phrases. But they're knowingly distorting the truth...never mind, that's the objective.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. Well . . . the death panel meme got so much play it pretty much killed
any hope of a decent health care bill. If we can do the same with "catfood commission," maybe we can save Social Security. You have to use the ammunition that works these days to sound very Palinesque because half the population is brain damaged.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. One would think.
Deal is...our arguments are more persuasive if we avoid the "loony tunes" rhetoric.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. The Catfood Commission explained.
There Is No Economic Justification for Deficit Reduction
by James K. Galbraith
Statement to the Commission on Deficit Reduction
by James K. Galbraith, Lloyd M. Bentsen, jr. Chair in Government/Business Relations, Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs, The University of Texas at Austin, and Vice President, Americans for Democratic Action, June 30, 2010


Mr. Chairmen, members of the commission, thank you for inviting this statement.

I am a professional economist, but I have served in a political role, as Executive Director of the Joint Economic Committee of the United States Congress. I am offering this statement on behalf of Americans for Democratic Action, an organization co-founded in 1949 by (among others) Eleanor Roosevelt, John Kenneth Galbraith, Arthur M. Schlesinger, jr., and Ronald Reagan. Accordingly I would like to begin with a political comment.

1. Clouds over the Work of the Commission.

Your proceedings are clouded by illegitimacy. In this respect, there are four major issues.

First, most of your meetings are secret, apart from two open sessions before this one, which were plainly for show. There is no justification for secret meetings on deficit reduction. No secrets of any kind are involved. Nothing you say will affect financial markets. Congress long ago -- in 1975 -- reformed its procedures to hold far more sensitive and complicated meetings, notably legislative markups, in the broad light of day.

Secrecy breeds suspicion: first, that your discussions are at a level of discourse so low that you feel it would be embarrassing to disclose them. Second, that some members of the commission are proceeding from fixed, predetermined agendas. Third, that the purpose of the secrecy is to defer public discussion of cuts in Social Security and Medicare until after the 2010 elections. You could easily dispel these suspicions by publishing video transcripts of all of your meetings on the Internet, and by holding all future meetings in public. Please do so.

Second, there is a question of leadership. A bipartisan commission should approach its task in a judicious, open-minded and dispassionate way. For this, the attitude and temperament of the leadership are critical.

I first met Senator Simpson when we were both on Capitol Hill; at Harvard he became friends with my late parents. He is admirably frank in his views. But Senator Simpson has plainly shown that he lacks the temperament to do a fair and impartial job on this commission. This is very clear from the abusive response he made recently to Alex Lawson of Social Security Works, who was asking important questions about the substance of the commission's work, as well as calling attention to the illegitimate secrecy under which you are operating.

A general cannot speak of the President with contempt. Likewise the leader of a commission intended to sway the public cannot display contempt for the public. With due respect, Senator Simpson's conduct fails that test.

Third, most members of the Commission are political leaders, not economists. With all respect for Alice Rivlin, with just one economist on board you are denied access to the professional arguments surrounding this highly controversial issue. In general, it is impossible to have a fair discussion of any important question when the professional participants in that discussion have been picked, in advance, to represent a single point of view.

Conflicts of interest constitute the fourth major problem. The fact that the Commission has accepted support from Peter G. Peterson, a man who has for decades conducted a relentless campaign to cut Social Security and Medicare, raises the most serious questions. Quite apart from the merits of Mr. Peterson's arguments, this act must be condemned. A Commission serving public purpose cannot accept funds or other help from a private party with a strong interest in the outcome of that Commission's work. Your having done so is a disgrace.


PDF download of full statement.
http://www.newdeal20.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/deficitcommissionrv.pdf


In short-
The deficit commission is a brain child of the president's with a little help from billionaire right winger pete peterson, comprising of majority of right wing, free market supply siders with serious conflicts of interest working in secret deciding what needs to be done to bring the deficit under control. Social security is on the table for cuts in secret meetings with NO public input and whatever recommendations emerge, conveniently after the elections in Nov. thereby rendering the public powerless, will be voted in only an up or down vote stripping the process of any semblance of democracy.


Cat food commission is mild compared to what I hear most people call this ideological commission of a majority of anti social security neo libs and neo cons.
Congress voted the idea of a commission down.
The commission was the choice of this president, secrecy is a choice of this president and the 2 right wing, anti worker co-chairs are a choice of this presidents. All points to a rigged commission.

Don't like the term cat food commission then open the doors and let the people, the workers of this country whose money these millionaires and billionaires are playing with (stealing), see what is going on.

If Bush tried to pull this bullshit secret commission all hell would have broken loose here. Obama does it and we all must sit politely like well behaved children while the "adults" work in secret deciding what to do with our measly retirement money?

There is no reason to trust a secret commission. There is no reason to give the benefit of the doubt to a secret commission and the only way to fight a secret commission is to keep yelling loud and clear that it has no legitimacy, is undemocratic and needs to be disbanded immediately.




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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. As you can see- some people aren't interested in facts laid out by respected experts
They prefer clinging to their characterization of people who take potential cuts to seriously as "fringe groups" and objections as "hyperbole."

And they then wonder why the party's on the verge of an historic defeat in a redistricting year.

And if and when that happens- up and down the ticket from Congress to state houses and governorships- you watch: they'll blame the very same progressives who warned them about the consequences of the administration's and Senate "leadership's actions, omissions and ill considered public statements all along.

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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Yes, all of a sudden in unison, post after post compares the cat food commisssion term with
the death panel term. All together now, lol.

Too bad the president doesn't think any of the commission's supporters deserve to know what right wing millionaires and billionaires are deciding to do with our money. Secret meetings on social security? Are folks insane to accept this bullshit.
If you are a supporter you can't legitimately defend the purpose and actions of a commission that is secret and has no representation from the working class, so you attack those who point out the obvious by trying to associate them with teabaggers. Not working.

Too bad for them but everyone understands the term cat food commission and everyone understands what these wealthy elite pieces of trash plan on doing, those of us who have been paying attention have 3 decades of experience with just this type of bullshit cover for yet another massive theft of worker's wealth.

The elite in this country will continue to steal every single cent they can get their hands on unless we make it very uncomfortable for them. That means denigrating their statements and de-legitimizing their phony commission by attacking it relentlessly.
Cat Food Commission serves that purpose quite well and has stuck.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
10. If an OP or post uses "Catfood Commission" when discussing/debating the ...
Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform aka the Deficit Commission I stop reading because those who use such "rhetorical hyperbole" lose their credibility as being someone who is serious about debating the issue, imo.

It is no different than when the repubs used "Death Panels", same tactics for both.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm not the only one!
Yay, that gives me hope.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. agreed
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. +1
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. You have to accept a certain amount of metaphor
Expressions like "cat food commission" are basically metaphors to express much larger ideas. In a forum like this, where brevity is king, they have their uses. Sure, there are some that use the metaphor to literally, and it makes it hard to discuss the issues with them. But generally I think you can find useful dialogue with many of the owners of the phrase.

My problem with "death panels" wasn't in the metaphor, I just don't tend to get all that hung up on specific language. My problem with the "death panels" is they didn't refer to anything. Anyone I knew that used it, couldn't begin to explain what the heck they were talking about. You say "cat food committee" and I know you're referring to The Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform. You say "death panel" and I can't begin to "translate" that.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I don't have to accept hyperbolic metaphors at all...
and I don't when the issue being raised is serious. Ridiculously hyperbolic metaphors detract, not add, to the discussion/debate and, I repeat, vastly reduce the credibility of those who use it. What is the difficulty in referring to the Commission by it's title or even the shortened "Deficit Commission" if typing the full title is seen to be too onerous?

I would argue the "death panel" hyperbolic metaphor did refer to as much as the "cat food commission" does. The "death panels" referred to the aspect in the bill related to living wills which in NO way was relative to the, at the time, proposed health care bill. It is the same with the "cat food commission" which refers to seniors having to resort to eating cat food which is in NO way relative to the "Deficit Commission" which has made NO recommendations as yet, whose mandate encompasses much more than only Social Security, and whose recommendations, once they ARE forwarded to Congress, are NOT binding at all.

Bottom line to me, both are tactics being used to try and scare the public by misleading them into believing that which is not true. Both are equally despicable.



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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. There was no panel
My problem was that there was no "panel", forget the modifiers. There is a commission. Using the "cat food" merely condenses the point into a single phrase (kinda the purpose of metaphors). One is basically asserting that there is an unstated purpose to the commission. I'm not sure what "death panel" had to do with anything since there was no "panel".

I do agree that the primary purpose is to "scare". One must understand that such a lack of trust is earned however on the part of this administration. Promises were made, and broken, and they lost whatever trust they had. People will lobby before the fact from here on out.

And ya gotta admit, Simpson doesn't help the situation.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. There is no cat food commission either..
that is exactly the point. Nothing in the mandate of the Commission relates in ANY WAY to cat food just as nothing in the the health care bill related to a panel.

Are you saying it is more appropriate to scare seniors with the "cat food commission" hyperbolic metaphor than it was to do so using the "death panel" hyperbolic metaphor? Do you not see both as despicable in their intent? I certainly do.

Simpson is an idiot, the usual fare, imo, for a repub these days. Verbal diarrhea is not an isolated case among repubs as we well know. Lobbying based on outright misrepresentations reduces those lobbying to cranks, imo. Lobbying based on facts such as will be evident when the Commission reports it recommendations and BEFORE Congress debates them is much more effective.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. There is a commission
That is the point. If were going to argue semantics, lets be clear, you want to argue about the adjectives. My point is that the nouns themselves don't align. There is a commission, there is no panel. Far apart from the modifiers, the fundamental nouns don't align.

Do I see one as "more appropriate"? I see one as more applicable. There is a commission, the modifier summarizes ones point of view quickly. There is no panel so I'm not sure what point is being made at all.


And if you want to argue political strategy, getting politicians on the record BEFORE a commissions recommendations has the two pronged effect of getting them on your side early, and it can potentially influence what the commission will bother to recommend. They have been found to be effective in the past, ESPECIALLY with respect to Social Security. To a great degree it is known as "framing the debate". By classifying it as the "cat food commission" one sets them up to be judged by their performance on that feature alone.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. So it seems, it depends on "whose ox is being gored" as to whether...
scaring seniors with hyperbolic metaphors that are deliberately misleading are appropriate or not, interesting. Your argument is the same one used by the rabid right to defend using the "death panel" crap and, frankly, I am astonished to see it being used here.

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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. How do you know they are misleading?
We don't know if they are either hyperbolic, nor misleading. What we do know is that they are predictive. The degree to which they are accurate is still unknown.

In the case of the death panels, since there were no panels, we knew there was no death panels. We knew they were hyperbolic and misleading. Quite frankly, they were outright lies. There were no predictive nature to them at all.

And no, it has nothing to do with whose ox is being gored.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. LOL, "predictive" uh-huh
Seniors are predicted to have to resort to cat food based on the current and future unknown. Wow! I think I will end this with your ridiculous post standing as is.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-10 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Well, that's the metphor
The prediction is that SS benefits will be cut as part of the larger package. Usually this refers to anything from increasing the "retirement" age, to lower COLA's, or "means testing".

Quite honestly it is hard to see how they'll do anything without doing something like this. Alternately, all they can do is adjust the income side by removing or adjusting caps. Especially with this president, but actually with anyone who wants to make changes to SS, to get one, you'll be politically forced to do the other.

In a discussion forum like this, one must seek to find understanding, not avoid it.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. holy shit, picking nits and mental gymnastics!
:rofl:
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JamesA1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
11. They are two sides of the same coin nt
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. Key difference the Cat Food Commission exists
and the ideologues appointed to it have shown an eagerness to make some rather disturbing public statements.



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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
17. Each party has their fringes.
The doses might not be the same, but make no mistake - the psychiatrist is definitely prescribing them both the same medicine.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
19. not much worse than calling it the "Deficit commission" n/t
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. False equivalence
Death panels were a myth created out of whole cloth. This secret commission actually exists and they are talking about cutting SS benefits.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. how secret can it be if you're pitching fits about it daily? furthermore,
saying seniors will be eating pet food is the same kind of baseless fearmongering the RW uses. it cheapens the argument, and makes people look like unhinged larouchies.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-10 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. There are many commissions that do not operate "publicly"
Just because you know of a commission, doesn't mean its deliberations will be "publicly known". Take Cheney's Energy Task Force for example. We knew it existed, but that was about all we knew.

I understand the metaphor, but I tend to lean your way which is that it is a tad crass and hyperbolic. We have several metaphors around here that aren't allowed to be used, including cheerleaders and references to ponies. I've always been a tad surprised that the "cat food" moniker has survived the mod's. I do find these metaphors useful for a forum like this where brevity is preferred. But I also understand that they can tend to inflame more than to communicate. I tend to find that I personally can get past that aspect. Others seem to struggle with it.
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