A poll that may clear the air

[jpgray]

I think the correlation between criticism and wholesale party abandonment is overstated here, so let's find out! To my mind, in politics as in parenting, a demand for better behavior is not proof of wholesale abandonment or eternal hatred.

[Uzybone]

1. a useless poll

harsh criticism is one thing; threatening not to vote or trying to demoralize those who will vote is the problem.

[Vincardog]

2. Please link to one person ' trying to demoralize those who will vote".

[tledford]

23. [crickets] eom

[smalll]

3. Another problem with your poll; you only include "work AND vote" -- lots will vote but NOT work

for them this time, understandably.

[maxsolomon]

4. "whiny pessimism" is not how i view it.

revise it to "unconstructive", and i'd vote.

[jpgray]

6. Yeah, the poll is imperfect for a number of reasons

Hopefully at a minimum it will show wholesale abandonment of the party is not what's happening--I can see how the bits about the harsh criticism are extremely subjective and would need better phrasing for the results to mean anything.

[Jamastiene]

5. I've always voted straight ticket for the Democratic Party in general elections...

but criticism is how we work within the party to try to keep it going in the direction we want.

If we don't speak up when things seem to be going wrong, no one will know anything is wrong. Even if some do know something is wrong, silence just leads others to keep their mouths shut, because they do not want to be seen as the only one with a complaint.

Our circular firing squads, believe it or not, are what keeps us together as a party. If we marched in lock step behind any mantra, we'd fall apart and REALLY hate each other then. It's better to go ahead and debate it and be straight up with each other about what we think. Who wants to be around people who never say how they really feel anyhow?

[xchrom]

7. Recommend

[lib_wit_it]

8. Bumpity, I'm curious.

[CakeGrrl]

9. This is really bugging you, isn't it?

Why are you so defensive about criticizing the administration? Or did someone call you a hater and you've taken umbrage?

[jpgray]

10. Well, I was accused of being a whiner and advocating the abandonment of the party

I was pretty sure that neither was true, but the accusation speaks to a belief that such people are out there. So I thought I'd use an imperfect and poorly-worded poll to see more or less where people here are actually at in terms of abandoning the party.

[sandnsea]

11. I support "harsh criticism" of phony Democrats

who are really nothing more than Greens and anarchists, even if they don't know it.

I mean what the fuck. What happened to activism and advocacy? Since when is "harsh criticism" the only way to bring about change, or any way to bring about change for that matter. It doesn't fucking work. It's why Howard Dean didn't win in Iowa.

When will you guys fucking get it.

[jpgray]

12. Does activism happen without harsh criticism? What anti-war rally was free of it?

What campaign against Bush was free of it? To agitate in any direction, you need to know why you want to go where you agitate to go, and why the current direction is not acceptable.

Incidentally, do you support harsh criticism of blue dogs? Ben Nelson? Max Baucus? Who are the real Democrats and who are the phonies? Presumably Bernie Sanders should be booted out?

[sandnsea]

13. And did it work?

No. Bush was re-elected in 2004, remember? Am I wrong, or was your whine then that you didn't have anything to "vote for", because you wanted to "vote for" Howard Dean, whaaaa.

The war didn't end until people became convinced that they'd been lied into it, and that convincing came from people like Colin Powell and Barack Obama. He called it a dumb war. He didn't go on a rampage and chain himself to the White House and head down to Venezuela and have lunch with Hugo Chavez. That kind of idiocy doesn't work any more than Sarah Palin's death panels.

People want to be a part of something positive. Constant bitching does nothing but discourage people. Sometimes I think groups like ANSWER were designed by Republicans to continue fueling that whining because they knonw how to manipulate emotions better than anyone.

For the love of god, STOP WHINING.

[jpgray]

16. Politicians do what is politically expedient, and it's our job to make the right things expedient

I don't think Obama believes seriously in torturing people, wiretapping them, or assassinating them without due process, but he's weak. All major politicians are weak. They need a movement, substantial public pressure that is organized and demanding, before they can act against entrenched interests and industries. Absent that, nine tenths of their kind will act like the frailest little posies you ever saw.

Frail posy behavior is in ample evidence here: Obama knew it was right to refuse lobbyists positions in his administration where they would have authority over issues for which they lobbied. But he's weak, and can't hold to his own words when he stands alone. So he hires lobbyists from Raytheon for DoD, lobbyists from Sempra for DoI. Obama knew we needed a public option for any real decrease in health care costs. But he's weak, and he can't hold to it under massive pressure from industry lobbyists and fellow cravens. So he cuts a secret deal and negotiates away every strong proposal he had. Obama knew it was right to demand an end to wiretapping, rendition and assassinations without any due process whatever. Yet absent a strong movement, he plays the posy once again--continuing the same policies as Bush, and easily bullied into abandoning his stated ideals without a fight.

I'm not blaming him for being a politician. It's what politicians do. I'm still going to vote for him, because I knew he was a posy and I can't blame him for being what he is. But to say that the weak posies amongst us are the fire-breathing agents of true change is the single most ridiculous thing I have ever read. They're frail, and they're easily cowed. Absent a popular movement to direct them, they'll shrink from a tough fight at the first opportunity.

(Incidentally I worked and voted for Kerry, but thanks for the stereotype anyway.)

[sandnsea]

17. Oh god, and you are what? Strong? Clickety-clacking your little fingers

Weak? You've got to be kidding me. You wouldn't last one hour in Obama's shoes. I don't know if it's arrogance or ignorance or some twisted combination of the two.

Or why you choose to believe that torture is still going on as if there are a hundred Abu Ghraibs all over the world, or that he's ordering assassinations willy-nilly, or even at all. "Kill or capture" is not ordering an assassination, any more than it is when cops go out and attempt to apprehend someone for questioning and they open fire instead. The inability to apply logic is astounding to me. I understand it with people like Sarah Palin, I know people like her, THEY'RE STUPID. You? I don't think you're stupid. Where does this desire to say anything against authority come from? Whether it's true or not. It's just bizarre.

And there were people who campaigned "for" John Kerry, and others who "expressed concern" on a daily basis, much like they do now with Obama. It's not the same thing. In fact, there are people who go out and "work for" candidates when the candidate would probably be better off if those folks stayed home.

[jpgray]

18. To sum up, you believe politicians are the strong brave folk that lead a bleating herd to paradise

The great man theory of history, wherein MLK or Gandhi or Obama shows up, and presto! there's a movement that wasn't there before. All we need to do is pull the right lever every second November, and the brave man will solve all our problems, no further input required!

It doesn't matter when you or I are weak. We're just here clickety-clacking away, knocking on a few doors, and calling a few people as you say. It does matter when the most powerful person in the world is weak on crucial principles. At bare minimum, when he sells those principles down the river, it should be alright to say that he did so, and that he should do better.

I'm still voting and working D all the way, because it is the best thing to do by far in election season. But outside the election, Democrats need to feel some heat from critics when they're weak, and all politicians will be weak without strong, critical activism.

(Incidentally if you can find a -single- thread from me that did not defend and support Kerry to the hilt from '03 and beyond, I'd love to see it.)

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

20. +infinity

[jpgray]

22. Which was the exact argument I received when I criticized the Bush administration

Allow me to disagree that those who are bravest and risk the most in this country are to be found in the halls of the Capitol or in the White House. I like your last line, but have you ever considered that the reason you are descending into rage and profanity is that you have tied yourself emotionally to total defense of that for which there is no good defense? Obama is frail when it comes to sticking to his principles, and the reason for that is that activism in support of those principles is not as strong as it should be. Instead of claiming that Obama has not abandoned some of his stated principles (he has), might we ask -why-, and see what we can do to change this? Hint: pulling the lever is not now, and has never been, enough.

[tledford]

24. You're explaining the self-evident to the delusional.

They'll never get it.

But you're right.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

14. I don't understand the this choice...

I will not work or vote for Democrats this Fall, but view harsh criticism of the party from the left as whiny pessimism

If this person will neither work for nor vote for Democrats this fall, then why does he/she care about what "the left" thinks?

Also, it's not just "the left" that is "complaining" or "whining." The so-called "left" still supports the party and Obama by a very wide margin.

The problem is with moderates, Independents, and low-information voters who may have voted for Obama and/or the Dems in 2008 but feel let down or disillusioned for some reason or another.

[27inCali]

15. CRITICIZE LIKE HELL AFTER THE ELECTION, NOT BEFORE!!!

[vaberella]

21. Who cares about this?! Let's focus on helping the floundering Dems that have a chance.

Not on a stupid poll. This is getting childish.

[nemo137]

25. I don't know that I'd say "whiney pessimism."

I believe there's a palace for it, and I agree with many of the specific critiques of policies or attitudes that this administration has. That said, I don't buy the whole "both parties are merely puppets of their corporate masters!" line, and I believe that 1.) there are groups in our society motivated by frankly fucking terrifying ideology and 2.) allowing those groups to gain power is unacceptable. So, I'm somewhere between the first two options. I believe that critiques of Democrats and the Democratic Party are legitimate and necessary, but I get incredibly frustrated by people who minimize the very real damage allowing the other side to get back into power will bring.

[JoePhilly]

26. Harsh criticism is fine ... threats to not support Dems aren't.

You want to scream, scream in the primaries. If your efforts there FAIL ... you have three choices, vote Dem, vote GOP, stay home and sulk.

There is no viable 3rd party option in almost any case at this time in the general.

Between labor day and the election, the Dem focus should be on getting Dems elected, and protecting Dem seats. Any other path gives the GOP more power ... and honestly, they scare the SHIT out of me. I don't want to be an evangelical Christian who thinks that our military should pre-emptively invade other countries to secure their oil, or that corporations are people ... or that social security needs to be ended, public education needs to be ended, unemployment insurance needs to stop, insurance companies care about whether I live or die.

The differences are so clear I struggle with those who can't see them.