Both the President and the Vice President were foolish

[Fresh_Start]

to make such apparently divisive remarks approaching election season.

But we shouldn't allow the odd remark to change our votes either.
It is now as, it has always been, a choice of the lesser of two evils.
And there is no doubt in my mind that the democratic party is the lesser of two evils.

[impik]

1. There was nothing "divisive" in their remarks

This should be a wake up call.


By Kevin Drum

…. It's all too easy, like Velma Hart, to convince yourself that he could have waved a magic wand and gotten a bigger stimulus and a better healthcare bill and stronger financial regulation and a historic climate bill. But honestly, you have to buy into some pretty implausible political realities to believe that (Olympia Snowe would have voted for a trillion-dollar stimulus, there were Republican votes for a climate bill if only it had been a bigger priority, healthcare reform could have been passed via reconciliation, Harry Reid could have unilaterally ended the filibuster, etc.). The votes just weren't there and the president's leverage over centrist Dems and recalcitrant Republicans just wasn't very strong. Maybe he could have done better, but the evidence says that, at best, he could have done only a smidge better.

And the alternative? Well, if the prospect of ripping apart healthcare reform, shutting down the government, deep sixing START, slashing social spending, and reliving the glory days of investigations over Christmas card lists isn't enough to get you motivated, I guess I'm not sure what is. I wish I got more warm and fuzzies from Obama too, and I wish, like Mike Tomasky, that his "fetish of not kowtowing to public opinion" were a little less ostentatious. But letting Darrell Issa take over the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform doesn't seem like a very good way of getting that message across.


http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/09/obamas-defense

[Hello_Kitty]

4. The beatings will continue until morale improves. eom

[Fresh_Start]

6. There is nothing to be gained by telling their voters

that they "the voters" are whiners.

They should be reminding their voters of the success they have created by their prior votes for their democratic representatives. The health bill, the extension of unemployment benefits, the millions of jobs which were created or at least not lost by the actions of this government.

They should be empowering and re-energizing the voters: not demotivating and annoying their voters.

[CakeGrrl]

11. I'm NOT demotivated and annoyed

I agree with them.

AND, I am very committed to voting Dem to keep these crazy-ass Republicans out. Because I get it.

I get that undoing a shitload of shit takes time.

I get that the President doesn't have a magic wand or a Hollywood script that allows him to do heroic stuff lickety split.

Then again, I'm not whining about what hasn't been done yet because I have a sense of perspective.

[Fresh_Start]

13. No one said you were....

but a few percent of possible voters may be. And that few percent could make a difference in a couple of seats in the election.

Did you ever look at the efficacy of telling someone they are a whiner? Its counterproductive and therefore it is foolish to ever do so but especially before an important election.

[CakeGrrl]

18. Unfortunately, the people who could lose the election aren't

going to be the ones who are doing the actual suffering.

Politicians are generally pretty well-off. They won't have much personal risk in suffering the bad policies of Republicans.

I basically said this in another post: If people can't suck it up and at least vote to keep Repubs out, then they deal with what they get.

[frylock]

30. we know. the "who are you going to vote for" argument..

seen it. it doesn't in any way mitigate the shit the progressive community takes from this admin.

[Jakes Progress]

55. dupe

[Jakes Progress]

56. Nothing to see here.

There are no problems. Move on. Let's not dwell on this. Let's pretend that everything is just hunky dory.

The trouble is that people who bleat about whiners are the whiners. Biden needs to put his big boy pants on and stop whining about not being appreciated enough.

[vi5]

The remarks wouldn't be so bad....

..if all the actions in the preceding 2 years didn't also reflect the sentiment. The words themselves would be meaningless if the actions and the results were there.

Again, doesn't mean I'm not going to vote D since as you said, lesser of 2 evils, etc.....but it's much more than just some offhanded, dismissive comments.

[Fresh_Start]

7. yes, I agree nt

nt

[Dawgs]

2. Says you. I'm glad they said what they said.

I like it.

[Fresh_Start]

8. then you won't mind when their voters stay home

and let the GOP run away with the election.
Because that is exactly what those type of remarks will engender

[vaberella]

14. No I won't mind. Because it shows how much they don't care about America. n/t

[Fresh_Start]

16. so why do you bother to vote if you don't care about results

of the election?

[vaberella]

27. Don't twist my words---I'm looking at your statement on voters staying home.

If they don't vote--they give the election to Republicans and I see that they're just the same as republicans. I don't know where you're response is coming from because it shows to have nothing ot do with my comment which is in response to your question about people staying home.

[treestar]

33. Then why would the whiners stay home?

Because they care about punishing the P/VP for this remark more than they do about handing the country over to the Republicans?

If that remark can offend someone, they weren't on our side to start with - they are on the Republicans side.

[depakid]

50. Because they don't want to work for, donate to nor be associated with people who call them whiners

and hold them in contempt.

Pretty simple concept really.

[CakeGrrl]

15. If voters are too dense and obdurate to keep Republicans out

then they deserve to have them back in.

And I do mind that we have to suffer this mental density when it comes to bottom-line vote arithmetic.

[Fresh_Start]

19. so you want those voters to be more rationale than you are?

because you don't care about the results...you'd rather punish the 'sensitive' voter than win the elections for the democrats?
I can't see the superiority of your position.
We lose in both cases.

I'd rather we win even if it means that the administration has to be politically smart and not piss off its own prior voters.

[CakeGrrl]

24. What are you talking about? I am voting DEM. I am not the problem.

People who would withhold their Democratic vote, which helps Republicans, ARE the problem.

Ask them why they would do that.

[vaberella]

28. The person said the same nonsense to me. They have an nonsensical argument.

I came to realize when their post had nothing to do with my post which answered their initial question that you also responded too.

[Dawgs]

21. Why would their voters stay home? Are they stupid?

Only an idiot would be offended by those remarks if they were already planning to vote for the Democrat.

[stray cat]

3. So they should be firm with others but wishy washy with those who claim to own them?

[Hello_Kitty]

5. They should stop kissing teabagger butt while dissing the Left.

People are forgetting how Joe Biden said the Tea Party people were justifiably angry (or words to that effect) before he told liberals (or whomever you're claiming he said it to) to "stop whining".

[WI_DEM]

9. Well if some of the so-called "base" will not vote democratic and help elect a GOP congress

due to comments by Obama and Biden about getting our asses in gear and voting then they are childish.

[Fresh_Start]

10. The President and others should realize that

it will have a deterrent effect on some voters.
This is an election where they should not be pissing off anyone who might vote for the democrats.
The democrats have always been less 'habitual voters' then the GOP.
So its politically foolish to have done so.

corrected spelling error

[Dawgs]

22. Why would you be deferred if you're already voting for the Democrat?

The remarks were for those that are thinking of staying home because things aren't going exactly the way they want. They deserve to be called whiners.

[Fresh_Start]

25. I'm not talking about myself.

I have to make sure that the GOP doesn't win a senatorial seat and the governors office in California.
You can bet I'm voting and talking to people about this election.

But I know that calling someone a whiner is counterproductive.
There are lots of unmotivated democratic voters, why add to the problem.

[treestar]

34. I'm sure they do

But they think it was have a better effect on more voters.

I doubt they are stupid.

[GSLevel9]

12. circular firing squad? nt

[ProSense]

17. "And there is no doubt in my mind that the democratic party is the lesser of two evils."

You think that qualifies you as the base?

[Fresh_Start]

20. I've never voted for any GOP for any state or national office

in more than 20 years of voting. I've never missed a state or federal election.
I've contributed to democratics candidates and never contributed to GOP candidates.
I have volunteered for democratic candidates and never volunteered for GOP candidate.

That should qualify me as the base.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

38. Don't worry about those who constantly attack anyone who dare criticize this President.

If you've been on the board long enough, you know who they are.

[Fresh_Start]

40. Yes, I know.....

anything other than blind worship makes you 'not the base'.

[left is right]

23. but wouldn't it be nice just once to vote for the genuine better

I was excited to vote for Obama although I feared that he might be too reluctant to be labeled an "angry black man." I a disappointed in his seemingly lack of courage on importatn issues. But the thing that really upsets me is that if he fails he will make it harder for other black/biracial men and women to succeed in politics. It may take a generation for us to elect another black man or woman to the presidency. I am the grandmother of 3 biracial children under the age of 9. I hope they will see several black presidents during their growing up/young adult years. I fear they won't
That being said, I am voting and voting for Democrats but I don't like being told by Obama, or Biden that I need to quit whinig over their continuing the abuse of power in the same manner that * did.

[ProSense]

26. I voted for genuine and got it

"I a disappointed in his seemingly lack of courage on importatn issues. "

Right the President had nothing to do with getting health care reform and Wall Street Reform passed. I realize that you think those weren't important, but I believe they were significant.

[left is right]

32. I too believe they are significant

but my concerns are over his abuse of power by continuing the same policies of the previous administration: electronic spying on American citizens the failure to adequately address torture the policies on state secrets and the president’s/DOJ policy on assassination. Further if he had gotten out in front on health care we might have been able to get something bearer. But like I emphasized my main gripe is that by the so-called common wisdom that he us failing, he is making it harder to elect a second man or woman of color to the Presidency. In thirty years my youngest grandson will be eligible to run as a Democratic candidate for president, I want it to be a common thing that African American men and women run for that office

[Whisp]

29. divisive to whom?

to a handfull of screaming spoiled children?

phfffft!

[Fresh_Start]

31. yes, the same screaming spoiled children that Obama

solicited when he was elected. Back then the screaming spoiled children were supposed to be the future of the Democratic party.

[Whisp]

36. Obama is still very popular among Democrats

where do you get the outrageous idea that the whining dribblers were the one who put him in office.

knock knock
reality check is calling

[Fresh_Start]

39. Reality responding

more than likely 30 million fewer people will vote this year than in the year Obama was elected.
More than likely the first time voters who helped get Obama elected won't show up.
You've seen the polls, Democratics are unenthusiastic: GOP is energized.

Thats reality.

[Whisp]

44. we can compare crystal balls later and see who is closest to being correct.

I don't believe those high numbers of yours, those are the things the media is yelling and slobbering every day. The dems in trouble! The sky is sure to fall down on all the Dems!!! When did we start believing those traitorous fuckheads? When did Wolf Blitzer or any of those other lieing turds get credibility? You know that they are pretty well owned by the GOP, the talking heads and the liars and get their script handed to them by the likes of the Roves and the other scum. But you believe them now? Did you believe them when Bush was in office and claimed Iraq had WMDs? Or did you believe that crap about the Ownership Society? etc etc.

why would you put any faith in the media now? Is it because you would some how get a sort of justification or happiness or some wierd shit feeling if the dems Did lose? all for you being 'right'? (which you aren't but you will have to wait and see).

I have to make dinner right now. brb

[Fresh_Start]

46. I have been minimal in my crystal ball reading

voter turnout down 30 million (non-presidential election year)

democrats will lose some seats (typical midterm election results)

Many of Obama first time voters won't turn out (young voters aren't habitual voters)

So what did your crystal ball tell you that's different?

[Whisp]

48. tells me the media is lieing, like they always do.

where are you getting your information from? Wolfie?
or maybe John King, o yeah, he's the 'serious' one, isn't he?

[Fresh_Start]

51. No, I did my own research on voter turnout

don't actually watch any television except alton brown and baseball.
So I don't have any political commentator garbage diluting facts.

[Hekate]

35. Foolish for telling the truth to shake people up? Foolish for not pandering?

There is a party out there that panders to its base every minute of the day, and look where it's gotten us.

I'm glad that at least you see the Dem Party as the lesser of two evils and will vote for them instead.

Hekate

[Bodhi BloodWave]

37. the mindset of some people are amusing tho, aka along these lines

"I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a Democrat."

"I refuse to walk in lockstep with the party, thats a republican trait"

but, then at the same time they will look at Obama and basically go.

"Why are you not doing what I expected you to do"

"How *DARE* you not prioritize my causes"

Aka, they are more or less expecting Obama to walk in lockstep with THEM, its a very fun disconnect for me to watch.

[robcon]

41. Foolish by trying to insult voters to get them to vote Democratic.

Not smart politics, IMO.

[Fresh_Start]

42. exactly

You don't get positive results from calling someone a whiner.
You get negative results.

For someone who had the electorial math down to a science two years ago....its remarkably clueless behavior.
Its not an Presidential election year, 30 million people who voted two years ago are going to stay home just because its not a presidential election year.

Lets further alienate our voters by scolding them.

Clueless.

[Fresh_Start]

43. Foolish because name calling is always counterproductive nt

nt

[AtomicKitten]

45. Oh crappola. Both he and VP Biden told the truth. nt

[Fresh_Start]

47. and telling someone that they are fat and ugly may also

be truthful but its unlikely to persuade them to do what you want them to do

[depakid]

49. It really is impressive that some people can't grasp even the most basic elements of human nature

[AtomicKitten]

53. Maybe he thinks whiny voters are capable of pulling up their socks

and don't need to be spoon-fed reality.

Me, I'm not so convinced.

[jillan]

52. Why do Dems get their feeling hurt so easily?

[JeffR]

54. Some are fragile.

So very, very fragile, though fortunately they retain just enough strength to spout off ad nauseam on the intertubes about just how very, very fragile they are.

For whatever their reasons.