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How good are the public polls? (Feingold is not a fan)

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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-10 03:49 PM
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How good are the public polls? (Feingold is not a fan)
How good are the public polls? (Feingold is not a fan)
By Craig Gilbert of the Journal Sentinel
Oct. 18, 2010 1:49 p.m. |(30) Comments


Before introducing first lady Michelle Obama at his Milwaukee fundraiser last week, Russ Feingold told supporters that he had closed the gap with opponent Ron Johnson in his own internal polling.

“I’m no longer behind!” he roared.

Feingold obviously wants Democrats to be energized, not discouraged, about his race. But it’s a hard sell when you’ve trailed in every nonpartisan public poll since late July. Feingold pollster Paul Maslin argues that the public polls are flawed, that they don’t accurately reflect who is likely to vote next month, and that the race is now neck-and-neck.

Could he be right?

Only if all the public polling is wrong. So you have to be skeptical.

But let’s leave aside the horse race question for a moment, because Maslin’s argument involves two broader questions that are getting a lot of discussion these days.

One is what the makeup of the electorate will be Nov. 2 -- whether or not it will be markedly more conservative and Republican than in the recent past.

Two is the quality of public polling in statewide elections like this one.

We’re swimming in polls – partisan polls, media polls, academic polls, one-day robo-polls, big polls, little polls.

I would divide expert opinion on this subject into two camps.

One camp believes that state-level polls are frequently flawed, done on the cheap, lacking in transparency (about how the survey is conducted) and don’t deserve much credence. The greatest skepticism is often directed at “robo-polls,” automated surveys such as Rasmussen that don’t use live interviewers, don’t call cell phones (which by law must be dialed manually) and are often done over the course of a single night, which means they only reach a small percentage of the people called and have to be statistically adjusted to compensate for the types of people they systematically miss. Well-known election analyst Charlie Cook recently wrote that “90 percent of the public polling in statewide and district races is mediocre at best, and much of it is very close to worthless.” These are the polls that drive public perceptions of the race, he complained, calling most local media and academic polling “dime store junk” and saying he found far more value in the private polls done at much greater expense by campaigns, parties and interest groups.

The other camp believes the situation isn’t nearly so dire -- that while polls vary a lot in quality and method, when you consider them in their totality, they give you a pretty reliable picture of the race and are highly predictive of election outcomes. This is the case for the polling averages you see on RealClear Politics and Pollster.

Tom Holbrook, political science chair at UW-Milwaukee, makes the argument for how well polls have performed historically on his Politics by the Numbers blog.

Experts in both camps generally agree on some key points for consumers of polls: that you should be wary of surveys with small samples (400 likely voters instead of 800), of one-day polls, and of polls that don’t tell you how they were conducted or don’t give you demographic breakdowns of the people they surveyed.

Experts also agree that you should not put too much stock in any one poll (I’d say this is easily Rule Number One for journalists and voters). Don’t assume that one new poll constitutes a trend (even good polls can be outliers) or is even comparable to previous polls. Be cautious about all polling results unless lots of different polls are saying the same thing.

So how does the polling in the Feingold-Johnson Senate race look through this prism?

About half the non-partisan polls this fall in the contest have been robo-polls. Many have been one-day polls. Hardly any have included cell phones. Last month's Marist poll is the one exception I'm aware of. Cell-phone-only users are now about 25% of the population and they obviously skew young. A recent Pew study suggested a growing bias against Democrats in polls that leave cell-phones out.

Does that mean that we should be ignoring these polls?

Not if you believe in the power of polling averages, which currently put Johnson ahead by high single digits.

“There is no evidence from the last few election cycles that polls are anything but accurate. Sure, they miss in a few cases but usually just when the polls themselves say it is a close race,” says Holbrook. “The simple fact is that in the last two election cycles virtually every Senate and gubernatorial candidate who maintained a lead in the polls throughout the fall campaign went on to win.”

Polling expert Charles Franklin of UW-Madison says that even assuming that Rasmussen skews Republican and that the failure across polls to call cell phones understates support for Democrats, that doesn’t explain away most of Johnson’s lead.

“I’m certainly open to saying there are some concerns about the polling,” says Franklin. “The cell phone issue is one of the biggest. There’s the uncertainty of the composition of the electorate which could be moving more Democratic if the enthusiasm gap is waning a bit. But I’d be hard-pressed to think of any legitimate reason to move that average more than a couple of points.”

Over at the New York Times, statistician Nate Silver is confident enough in how well polling trends have performed in predicting past election outcomes that he puts the probability of a Johnson victory at 94% (!), even though the official Times rating of the race remains a toss-up. Here are the two rather discordant assessments side by side on the Times web site:

for full article:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/105194354.html
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RockaFowler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-10 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. I hate all polls
Hey look at here in Florida. They had meek behind by 20 points to Greene in the primary. And look at what happened - Meek won by 13 points. I'm not buying the polls anywhere. And if they show Democrats ahead, I think that it will be a landslide.
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histeria Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. In fact, Mason-Dixon had Meek ahead of Greene by 12% two days before the primary
And if Meek won by 13%, as you say, perhaps you will now stop "hating all polls."

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/08/22/1786600/mccollum-meek-surge-ahead-of-rivals.html
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-10 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nobody seen losing is a fan. Our GOP candidate for governor is not a fan either.
Edited on Mon Oct-18-10 03:57 PM by Mass
He is in the same situation than Feingold is, and he produced his own poll showing him ahead. But nobody believes he is.

Sure, there are issues in polls, but, if every single poll shows the same reality, it is generally true (counterexamples exist, like the NH primary). Of course, there is a big difference if these polls show you behind by 2 or by 6 or 7, but it is unlikely than if polls show you consistantly behind by high single digits, you are ahead. Of course, you could counter that by an exceptional GOTV, I imagine.

BTW, a poll is a picture of the reality at a given time. Things can change.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-10 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think polls are just meant to sway non-thinking voters to side with the "winners." nt
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-10 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. When 'your' guy is behind in the polls, you don't like the polls.
I think polls are informative and almost always honest.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. The key this year may be the accuracy in each state of the likely voter models
If there is an error in it, it will be that it favors the Republicans too much - as it has our enthusiasm at a low point and theirs at an extreme. But, looking back at the election result that was the hardest for me since I started voting in 1972, it may be that something is missing.

No one talked about an enthusiasm gap in 2004, but Kerry - not Bush had the excited crowds and rallies. He also had many voters who had been angry (every bit as angry as the tea party) with Bush for nearly 4 years. If you considered the intensity - the Democrats had it - we thought that Bush was destroying our country and making it something it wasn't. (Unlike this year's Republicans, we had a sane, intelligent candidate able to destroy the President in debates and who had a very clean reputation even though he was in the public eye for 35 years.)

Kerry did receive something like 9 million more votes than Gore had - far more than any Democrat ever had. But, Bush was able to get more than 10 million more votes than he had four years before. I don't recall predictions of either side increasing their numbers that much. (These were not (that year) the angry voters - they were voters that worried they could lose if "our" side won.) Are there quiet voters on our side who may vote because they are turned off by the tea party?

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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-10 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. I hate polls....but not my own internal polls I cherry pick for release to the media...
Please.

No one likes polls when they are losing. When they are winning, suddenly they like polls a lot more.

All a predictable part of the election cycle. Losing candidates hate polls, losing candidates get desperate and release hail mary ads trying to gain some traction, election day comes and losing candidate....loses.

The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
7. Ned Lamont was ahead in all the polls in the CT gubernatorial primary...
And went on to lose rather spectacularly to Dan Malloy, by 58%-42%.

The likely voter polls and later polls showed the race narrowing, but Lamont was still ahead in every poll.

The polls say Feingold will lose - which he may very well do (sadly), but polls can occasionally be way off.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Competitive primaries are notoriously difficult to poll.
Low turnout combined with an unknown electorate makes for lots of errors. General elections tend to have far more reliable polling.

That's why so many of the "our guy can still win" posts (Sestak?) address big comebacks in a primary. There are hardly any examples of a senate candidate (let alone an incumbent) trailing by eight points in the polls... who ends up winning.

I can't remember one in the last 20 years. Can you?
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I think Paul Wellstone was trailing when he first ran,
And beat Rudy Boschwitz.

One poll around this time in 2008 had Norm Coleman ahead of Al Franken by 11 points, for the very same Senate seat.

Coleman Franken Barkley

St. Cloud State University October 14–22, 2008 36% 27% 16%

It's rare, but last-minute comebacks do happen.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. By the way, you mentioned Sestak in your response.
I thought I'd post this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x482605

Poll: Joe Sestak overtakes Pat Toomey
New U.S. Senate poll shows Democrat with three-point lead.
10:58 p.m. EDT, October 19, 2010

WASHINGTON — Joe Sestak has pulled ahead of Pat Toomey after trailing for months in their closely watched Pennsylvania U.S. Senate race, an independent poll confirms.

Democrat Sestak now leads Republican Toomey 44 percent to 41 percent with 15 percent undecided, a Morning Call/Muhlenberg College Tracker poll shows.

The numbers are the first from a nonpartisan source to confirm the race has tightened two weeks before Election Day. Democratic-leaning Public Policy Polling on Tuesday put Sestak up by 1 percentage point. And two internal Democratic Party polls last week showed the Pennsylvania contest closing.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-10 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. That's a fantastic point, the difference between primary and general election
I've tried to emphasize it over the years. Not only are primaries exponentially more difficult to poll, but preference among like minded voters can shift on a dime late in a race.

In general elections everything is more tried and more rigid. You can literally assign minimum percentages months in advance and never be too far off. But everyone has a fresh memory of high profile primary comebacks, and those acquire more focus than relevance.

Poll averaging is reliable late in general elections. But I'm skeptical of polling in many states, namely Alaska and Georgia. Somehow we handicap pollsters based on tendency, like Rasmussen, but no one seems to notice that certain states poll accurately and others do not. I can guarantee Barnes in Georgia and McAdams in Alaska will lose by more than polling suggests.

Late comebacks in an upstream cycle do not get over the top. I'm trying not to post much because that would be my theme, as a handicapper and long term analyst. I see all these hopeful threads about cutting a deficit from 7 to 3, or whatever. Those races are more likely to bounce back to 5 or 7 than continue in the same direction. Foundational leads are more meaningful than late flails. That's why 2006 and 2008 were so enjoyable. My right wing friends desperately claimed the polls were wrong, or they touted magical rallies. I could sit back and chuckle.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-10 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. Polls can have their usefullness, but I don't buy them 100%
Some voters are difficult to track.

Living in Minnesota, Jesse Ventura didn't register anywhere near the lead in 1998 in the Governors race with Norm Coleman and Skip Humphrey. Next thing you knew, he was the winner.

A lot of younger voters and college kids came out for him.
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