Leaving the Left, Ctd

[babylonsister]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/12/le.html#more

Leaving the Left, Ctd
Andrew Sullivan


A reader writes:

Greenwald is in error when he states that people like me who don't identify with the left anymore (I now consider myself an open-minded moderate) want no criticism of Obama. By all means, dissent and dialogue on every issue. That is what brings a deeper understanding to all. What I object to is the nutty dogmatism, the "Obama is a liar!," "Obama is Bush/Cheney," "Obama is... whatever." It's those folks screaming about what Obama isn't doing and what he should do who seem to have invested him with Godlike qualities, not the more pragmatic of us.

They do seem to have seen him as the savior that the right was constantly suggesting many viewed him as. That he would wave his magic wand and all our problems would just evaporate. It's a very immature view with a lot of foot-stopping that seems more emotionally invested than those of us who thought he was smart, thoughtful, compassionate, and broad-minded, and would bring those qualities into all his decision-making. That's what I was looking for and that's what I'm getting.

Another reader adds:

Greenwald seems to be writing off personality traits like they are irrelevant and secondary to policy decisions, but while they may be secondary they are far from irrelevant. The point is that most of us on the outside have to form our opinions with relatively little to go on (that’s why there are so many reflexive warmongers or reflexive peaceniks.) I am not privy to most of the information the president has when making his Afghanistan decisions. I’m am also not former military, and don’t have in depth knowledge of military strategy and logistics, so while I do have an opinion on Afghanistan, I think it is most important that the president (the person with access to that knowledge) have certain personality traits that I think are conducive to finding the best solution. I think this is far more important than him reflexively supporting my uninformed opinion.

[Clio the Leo]

1. "He's Barack Obama, he's come to save the day!"

And the sad part is that so many actually believe this as literal fact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVFdAJRVm94

[fasttense]

2. We were all hoping for another FDR, a fighter for the people,

what we got instead was pragmatism and compromise. After 8 years of heartless, elitism and dictatorial reign and abuse, we were hoping for a fighter. Pragmatists and compromisers don't right wrongs, they merely go along to get along, allowing the abusers of the past to regain power.

For an example of this look at Chile and their dictator and murderer, Pinochet. Now, Pinochet's son is running for election.

[Jennicut]

3. The hyperbole does get out of control

I don't agree with Obama on Afghanistan but I can disagree with him with out going off the deep end. Obama is a moderate liberal and that is pretty much where I have been my whole life so none of his actions so far has surprised me. The only thing that makes me laugh is when pundits on CNN call conservative Dems like Nelson "moderates". As if....

[ShortnFiery]

4. You post Andrew Sullivan and worry about "the left." Look WITHIN? eom

[NYC_SKP]

5. I anticipate some foot-stomping replies.

Ooh, already here.

:P

BTW, Congratulations, Mr. President on your Nobel!

[AllentownJake]

7. If you want to join the I heart Andrew Sullivan parade

Have fun with it.

[Phx_Dem]

13. Beats the hell out of being in the Big Ed Parade.

[AllentownJake]

22. Well I hope you support

Privatized social security, ending all social spending, and ending row vs. wade.

When big Ed advocates that in the present tense, call me.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vi5]

8. What I don't understand about all of this....

..is how is it possible to view the people who are able to criticize Obama for the things he's done when they disagree with him as the ones who view him as some sort of magic wand wielding messiah. Isn't it the people who refuse to criticize him or who want to stop others from criticizing him the ones who are making him out to be some lofty figure who should be exempt from accountability and criticism? Isn't that what the hard right did with Bush and they were considered wacky and extremists by us here on DU? But when people within the democratic party do this they are considered calm moderates who are leaving "the left"?

[treestar]

54. Refuse to criticize him?

You mean, everyone should?

Accountability and criticism is different from foot stomping that he was not the Messiah and hasn't solved all world problems already.

[mcablue]

9. Thanks for posting two readers' comments with which you agree

I saw the comments attached to the original rant about the guy leaving left, and Greenwald got a lot of support.

[babylonsister]

10. I posted what was on Sullivan's blog at the time.

I haven't even read the original rant, but yes, I did happen to agree with what these people said, and I'm so sorry if you have a problem with that.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. What Sullivan said about Sullivan in 2008.

"My misjudgment at the deepest moral level of what Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld were capable of—a misjudgment that violated the moral core of the enterprise—was my worst mistake. What the war has done to what is left of Iraq—the lives lost, the families destroyed, the bodies tortured, the civilization trashed—was bad enough. But what was done to America—and the meaning of America—was unforgivable. And for that I will not and should not forgive myself."

A man who will be wrong to the point of mayhem, say he is sorry, but still continue to promote his opinions as if he had not done those things for which he claims contrition. And others promote his opinions for him, knowing how wrong, murderously wrong, he has been. He was wrong with great passion. He was wrong while mocking 'the left' for wanting reason and peace. Unforgivable is just that.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. Sullivan called Dick Cheney 'sexy' on TV as part of his

strong endorsement of Bush/Cheney in 2000. He continued with his breathless support until it became unpopular and unprofitable to do so.
On Sully's discernment skills, do you agree that Cheney is sexy? Did you support Bush 2000? The Iraq occupation? If not, why do you suddenly find him to be a font of wisdom?
That is who you are promoting here.

[ClarkUSA]

20. Ancient history. For many years, Sullivan has trashed Bush/Cheney and the Iraq war.

In fact, he left the Republican party after being viciously attacked by wingnuts for his honest opposition and is now an independent.
Like many Republicans who supported Bush/Cheney in 2000, he's seen through all the lies and now trashes both the GOP and its
teabagging elements.

[apocalypsehow]

36. Sullivan is not a U.S. citizen, therefore could not "leave" any American political party to "become"

an "independent" under his current citizenship status. To register to vote in any precinct for a federal election in these United States, you must be an American citizen.

You really should get your facts straight before you hit "Post message."

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

14. Andrew Sullivan said we DU types would form a domestic Fifth Column for AQ

Andrew Sullivan lectured me in a series of emails about my pathetic naivete in pointing out to him that there were not going to be any WMD in Iraq.

Andrew Sullivan has little more historical claim to respectability than Dick Cheney.

But since his demented bi-polar self-righteous idiocy is now in line with some DU dogma he is taken seriously here.

He's a unstable solipsist asshole with a pleasant writing style.

[babylonsister]

15. One thing; these are reader comments, not his. And you are

entitled to your opinion, just as Sullivan is. I like the fact he's moved on given the facts, unlike so many other conservatives.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

16. But you've never accused me of being a terrorist sympathizer...

So I would rather read what you have to say.

:hi:

[ClarkUSA]

17. Quote, link? Attacking the messenger seems to be all the vogue with a certain set here.

It's amusing.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

19. So be amused.

If you had any actual interest in what Sullivan said after 9/11 or before the Iraq War you would use the google machine.

Instead you implicitly accuse me of lying because it's easier and more fun than informing yourself.

[ClarkUSA]

21. Can't offer up a single quote or link to prove that Sullivan said that, eh?

I'm not surprised. :)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

24. And Sullivan was instrumental in the lie campaign that killed health-care reform in 1993

You can add Elizabeth McCaughey to the list of googleable things I am not going to research for you.

Oh, sorry... ancient history. I forgot.

:hi:

[NJmaverick]

25. It's only good debate to provide support for accusations, such as the ones you have made

[AllentownJake]

26. He's still against Single Payer

Not a past position, a current one.

[ClarkUSA]

28. *dupe*

[ClarkUSA]

29. Moving the goalposts because I exposed your earlier bullshit about Sullivan?

Still no quote or link, I see, for this crap you posted earlier:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=48704&mesg_id=48953

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

30. I do not work for you, thankfully

If you cared you would google "Andrew Sullivan Fifth Column" and read the first few thousand entries on the topic.

But I do not respond to link requests from people with a demonstrated core dishonesty.

It is funnier to let you continue voicing your righteous skepticism over something of which almost everyone on this board is aware.

There's a google box top right on every DU page.

Look through the telescope. Jupiter has moons!

[ClarkUSA]

31. Still no proof, quotes, or links to back up what you said, eh?

Hmmm... all I see is more attack rhetoric directed at me for daring to ask for proof for your claims here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=48704&mesg_id=48953

Amusing. :)

[Armstead]

18. I was just hoping Obama would be a moderate liberal -- NOT a DLC Centrist

[seattle_blue]

23. well well well

Nature hates a vacuum--we'll see how President Sarah Palin does in the absence of President Obama...You Betcha!!!:hi:

[swilton]

27. I don't buy the excuse that Obama has more information

The lack of information can no longer be considered an excuse given the proliferation of information on the internet and in hard copy. The assumption that the executive branch somehow has better information than the rest of us ignores the influences of motive and interest-based decision making. It also assumes that our leaders are somehow superior as opposed to senior in office than the rest of us. The supremacy of information (aka intelligence) available to the chief executive and not to the rest of us was a fallacy that led us into the Iraq War. The anti-war movement knew the Bush administration cooked the books - and they didn't have to wait around until the information was certain.

As with war-making so goes the debate on climate change and global warming. The information has been out there for decades. In order to take solution driven political action we don't need more information, we need political will.

[Cha]

34. No excuses..facts are facts whether you want to

face them or not.

[Sebastian Doyle]

32. When was Bareback Andy ever part of "the left"?

I seem to recall him cheering on Chimp and PNAC a few years ago.

[Cha]

33. Of course greenwald is throwing out

that strawman. He doesn't know how to deal in facts.

"Greenwald is in error when he states that people like me who don't identify with the left anymore (I now consider myself an open-minded moderate) want no criticism of Obama. By all means, dissent and dialogue on every issue. That is what brings a deeper understanding to all. What I object to is the nutty dogmatism, the "Obama is a liar!," "Obama is Bush/Cheney," "Obama is... whatever." It's those folks screaming about what Obama isn't doing and what he should do who seem to have invested him with Godlike qualities, not the more pragmatic of us."

[AllentownJake]

35. Andrew Sullivan was never part of the left

At best he could say he was a moderate. So saying I have left the left means nothing when you were never part of the left.

[QC]

37. How in the hell would Captain Bareback know anything about the left?

He is one of the four or five most vile people in American public life, and the fact that he has become a GD: P icon is a damning thing indeed.

[Starry Messenger]

38. Here's some interesting tidbits for the Andy Sullivan fanclub to chew on:

http://www.moreintelligentlife.com/story/andrew-sullivan-thinking-out-loud

"He (Andrew Sullivan) concedes that the turning point—in his relationship with Wieseltier, and the magazine—came in 1994, when he decided to serialise the sociologist Charles Murray’s incendiary book “The Bell Curve”. It argued that IQ was significantly affected by genetics—and that black people had a lower average IQ. Although he didn’t endorse everything the book said, Sullivan thought it was a serious, scientific work that should be discussed. The editorial team wasn’t persuaded: almost all of them threatened to resign. He just managed to keep them on board by running 19 critical responses in the same issue as the extracts."

[QC]

39. Ah yes, his defense of racist pseudoscience, one of Captain Bareback's finest moments.

I'm also very fond of his having spent years attacking the "libidinal pathology" of gay people while secretly trawling for bareback sex online.

How amusing it was to hear such a famous prude telling the world about his “killer muscle ass that loves to milk loads with my power glutes”!

Amazing that he is now an Oracle of Truth on this site while Howard Zinn is denounced as a lying commie. We have definitely passed through the looking glass.

[Starry Messenger]

40. This OP just got another rec.

Do people just not read all the way down threads? Or do they really not care that this guy is a slimebag?

[QC]

41. Nah. Captain Bareback likes Obama, so he's a good guy. n/t

[Starry Messenger]

52. Oh wow, he justified it thusly,

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1271

"When the New Republic devoted almost an entire issue (10/31/94) to a debate with the authors of The Bell Curve, editor Andrew Sullivan justified the decision by writing,

"The notion that there might be resilient ethnic differences in intelligence is not, we believe, an inherently racist belief."

Yeah, the guy's a real leftist all righty. :crazy:

[jonnyblitz]

43. I remember when ole Muscle Glutes serialized "the bell curve"

in the New Republic! :crazy:

[QC]

45. He considered himself very brave for doing that.

Sully congratulated himself for standing up to the PC left, as I recall, like he was some martyr for free speech.

[impik]

42. over the past week i read many many comments like these

And blog posts by people who are as-Liberals-as-can-be, who are so disgusted right now by the madness of the left - They want nothing to do with it.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

44. You are using Andrew Sullivan to trash Glenn Greenwald

DU is that you?

[QC]

46. Like I said, we have gone through the looking glass.

Just a week ago or so, I saw someone here in GD: P treating Joe Klein as some sort of prophet.

Joe Fucking Klein.

Unbelievable.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

53. I am glad I didnt read that n/t

[Romulox]

49. Sullivan just announced that he's an "ex-conservative", so it's OK.

:rofl:

[Blue_Tires]

47. this is the original blog post sullivan is referencing...

http://virgilspeaks.blogspot.com/2009/12/why-im-not-liberal-anymore.html

[Romulox]

48. The OP is a study in unintended irony.

It's the chearleaders who are guilty of deifying the President, not his critics. :hi:

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

50. Projection, same as the attempt to turn around the pony thing

"I know you are but what am I?"

The pugs have done it for years... "Dems are racists, fascists, have a problem with Hispanics, etc."

[RollWithIt]

51. I would describe myself as more of an "open-minded moderate" that the "left"

And yes, some of the hyperbole coming from the left about Obama is completely obnoxious. Reminds me a lot of how we got stuck with Bush when so many of them went running to Nader.